265 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Arcian wrote...
I personally believed this end was much better than the Paragon ending of ME1, because this time around you get to give the villain a finger that just screams "F*ck you". And ultimately, ParaShep turned TIM's manipulations against himself. The betrayal that you were expecting from TIM all along? You turned it against him, hijacked his plan (and plane?) and relatedly wasted the billions he invested in you. But the greatest thing? You did EXACTLY what he originally asked you to do.

It simply doesn't get more heroic than that.

Why do people find it hard to understand the Illusive Man? He never planned to capture the collector base (perhaps he was thinking it), until he recieved the schematics (he never knew the Collectors were contructing a reaper). All he wants is Shepard to defeat the Reapers and protect humanity. Whether you agree with him or not is irrelevent, as long as you do what you are supposed to do.
TIM gets pissed off when the station is destroyed, but he is stil determiend to fight the reapers regardless (whether Shepard lives or dies).

So you aren't really "manipulating him". You are doing presicely what he recreated you to do, which is saving humanity. So his investment is still profitable, though not as profitable as it potentially could be. Keep in mind that TIM will revive Shepard even if he was maximum paragon and absolutely abhors Cerberus. And keep in mind that TIM did NOT attempt to brainwash Shepard in project Lazarus (and he could have). He in fact made sure that Shepard remains Shepard, regardless of his beliefs.

I wish people would stop looking at TIM as a "villain". And start looking at him more like an anti-hero.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 février 2010 - 04:06 .

[Kittykat1984]

I have to agree with Raveyn, despite my loathing of Cerberus (which came along well before ME2, starting in ME1 and only being enhanced in ME Ascension, I have a fondness for Jacob, Kelly, Miranda, actually everyone on board. I will confess hating Miranda for most of ME2 though, until i got to have a good look at her backstory. I though she was an arrogant **** who took to much pride in her gene therapy.



I take a innate joy in watching Cerberus suffer in any and all ways i can, but i love my crew and I was pissed (still am) that I couldn't save them all in the end. Jack, Miranda, Legion, Tali, Zaed, you will be avenged in one of my replays lol

[Kittykat1984]

Phoenix, i look at TIM as a villian because I read Ascension, and I looked very closely at what he was doing throughout the game. TIM isn't a full fledged "I will kill sheperd" Villian like Saren, but he's not an anti-hero either. At least not in my opinion. Anyone who would conspire to blow up a Quarian vessel just to 'retrieve' his investment, and send a 'message' to the Quarian, just because they have the largest fleet in existence isn't a anti-hero, he's a terrorist. . Plain and simple, no questions in my mind, TIM isn't a anti-hero, he's a terrorist. The same goes for the way he had Cerberus treat Gillian, she wasn't a person, she was a investment. He doesn't care about humanity as much as he pretends. I also wouldn't put it past him to have known full well what was beyond the Omega 4 relay. There were alot of ruined ships there, a scout ship for Cerberus could have been among them and destroyed, after sending information on what was beyond the relay.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Kalduin wrote...


 The above is a really good example of the design philosophy I think, being a tool of the council again would of been stale, 'tis a new game and needed new ideas.

I would really love if they did the same in ME3, Have Shepard appear in a totally new "partnership" to keep things fresh.. hmm perhaps the Geth would be interesting.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kittykat1984 wrote...

Phoenix, i look at TIM as a villian because I read Ascension, and I looked very closely at what he was doing throughout the game. TIM isn't a full fledged "I will kill sheperd" Villian like Saren, but he's not an anti-hero either. At least not in my opinion. Anyone who would conspire to blow up a Quarian vessel just to 'retrieve' his investment, and send a 'message' to the Quarian, just because they have the largest fleet in existence isn't a anti-hero, he's a terrorist. . Plain and simple, no questions in my mind, TIM isn't a anti-hero, he's a terrorist. The same goes for the way he had Cerberus treat Gillian, she wasn't a person, she was a investment. He doesn't care about humanity as much as he pretends. I also wouldn't put it past him to have known full well what was beyond the Omega 4 relay. There were alot of ruined ships there, a scout ship for Cerberus could have been among them and destroyed, after sending information on what was beyond the relay.

That remains your own personal opinion, which you are of course entitled to have.
I too have read ascension and I have see TIM as a ruthless visionary and an anti-hero. I do not totally agree with all his methods, but I don't doubt his intentions. That too, of course, is my own personal opinion.

And I doubt a Cerberus scout ship could possibly have known that the collector base is a reaper factory, without getting too close, which is impossible as it would have been destroyed.

[Kittykat1984]

for clarification then Phoenix you believe that Adolf Hitler was a Anti-Hero? Cause if you look at his goals, methods and actions their are several parallels between the two.



As for them getting close enough to know it was a reaper factory, i doubt that as well, but for them to know that they were building something, and to know that the base had technology that was useful, i don't doubt they could get that information by even a distant scan. From the relation between reapers/collectors he could then infer that it was a reaper, they were building, based on the connection between the Protheans and the Collectors. seeing the parallel between humans and protheans.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Kittykat1984 wrote...

for clarification then Phoenix you believe that Adolf Hitler was a Anti-Hero? Cause if you look at his goals, methods and actions their are several parallels between the two.

Ah yes, here we go.
There is very little in common between Hitler and the Illusive Man. Hitler's vision includes the eradication of several races, beliefs and nations and even the handicapped and the "undesirables" amongst his own people. He in fact ends up sacrificing his nation for his idiotic beliefs based upon hate and prejudice and lack of pragmatism and compromise. Hitler's intentions were as blind and stupid as his performance.

The Illusive Man on the otherhand collaborates with aliens, seeks to learn from aliens and never has claimed the racial superiority of humanity. He seeks to further humanity's interests, not out of hatred of aliens but love for humanity. The difference is vast. I have never seen the Illusive man hating anyone non-human simply for being non-human.

I am saying all this as a half-Jew. And I would wish if people would actually study Hitler before comparing people they don't like with him. And for the record, as a history minor, defining Hitler as evil is unacademic and I dislike using the word.

As for the collector base. They need a reaper code to safetly jump out of the omega 4 relay. Otherwise, they would be destroyed instantly.
 

[Guaritor]

Lost Cipher wrote...

Simply put Choice is a lie!

This game series may elude or pretend to give the player choice over his or her actions, but in reality all the player is doing is altering story points along a board and witnessing the consequence of those actions.

In no true literal way do we have any choice in this game, it was written and produced by a team of writers, game designers, and programmers. Do you fit in any of those three categories? Did you write the game? Did you make it?

All this game is, is an interactive entertainment experience. In essence Gears of War, or Uncharted 2 with a Dialog tree corresponding to future cause and effect. So what might seem logical to you, really doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day they still have your $60, and it's still their IP.

Well it gives you more control over the outcome of the game then 99% of the games out there... The only real game you can have complete and total control over your choices and actions is a PnP rpg with a human DM.  Which, while fun in its own right, can get tedious.

[Kittykat1984]

TIM as much as says he seeks the DOMINATION of humanity over aliens. What Hitler sought for his "Arian(sp) race" over the rest of the world. Now I'm not entirely sure if he was aware of the unethical experimentation on Jews in the concentration camps, exposure to extreme cold, low pressure, etc. TIM has ordered in Ascension and presumably in ME1, the unethical experimentation on humans, and the rachni. Both parties have had problem individuals assassinated (see the first chapter of Ascension for this reference) In the beginning of Ascension, he also makes the claim that even though humanity had been given its place on the council, it wasn't enough. He had personnel like Gary Paulson detonate the mass effect core's of freighters over colonies to spread Ezzo so that he could have biotics youths to enter into the Ascension program. Remember Ezzo causes birth defects, cancer, stillborn births and only a minority become biotics. If a military officer ordered these things, like some of Hitler's subordinates ordered certain similar war crimes committed, during world war 2, they'd be tried for war crimes and possibly even executed. The similarities between the illusive man and Hitler aren't necessarily in the exact words coming out of their mouths but their intentions. If humans are seen as Arians and Aliens as the other nations (not all minorities were sent to the concentration camps if you'll recall, only the Jews, homosexuals, etc.) I don't mean to offend Pheonix I'm just pointing out what i see. I'm not a history major, but my father was, and we had long talks about world war 2, and I've read a few books on the topic over the years.

modified spelling of ArIan to Arian

Modifié par Kittykat1984, 01 février 2010 - 05:10 .

[StaR_JeS]

JudgeQwerty wrote...

I don't really blame the Council, though. Shephard really can come off as a delusional maniac spouting apocalyptic babble while openly working with terrorists. The real problem is that you can't choose NOT to work with terrorists,

Lol. This.

I always did think some of Shep's dialogue was ridiculous when talking to the Council. "You have to believe me!" and "I won't waste my breath!" is likely some of the most unpersuasive dialogue I've ever heard. Way to go, Shep, you clumsy jarhead. You certainly are no politician!  XD

I feel that as a paragon player, the biggest way of sticking it to Cerberus, and TIM himself is to destroy the Collector base in the end, not allowing Cerberus/TIM to advance their racism further in anyway in the future. Judging by TIM's very well controlled wrath at your choice, this is the hardest hitting thing in the whole game and will likely have a gigantic impact in ME3.

I think what it comes down to is that Shepard realizes there's no one else to turn to for help and Cerberus is the only one offering everything Shepard could need to take down a very frigthening, powerful enemy. Shepard's core being, whether paragon or renegade, is to protect at all costs. The difference comes in the priorities:  just humans, or humans and aliens alike. It's up to you the player to decide which Shepard will protect, which will have the most priority in his/her mind and act accordingly. Any form of aid in that matter will be taken, but as a paragon player, you will take it with a grain of salt. That is why the paragon is offered the choice to undermine Cerberus as much as possible because we understand how powerful and two-faced Cerberus is. Even in ME1, aid from the Council was taken with a grain of salt - I never truly trusted them, and I acted accordingly.

I hope I said that as clearly as it was going through my head.

[Fates end]

Very good points, though I can see a Paragon shep finally giving in and working with Cerberus, I rather wish you could be more vocal about despising their guts. Especially the Akuze Veterans, who saw their entire unit wiped out by a Cerberus experiment.



I was quietly hoping that once I got enough loyal crewmates, I could forcibly take over the ship and do things without Cerberus. But oh well Tis just a game, and a good one at that.

[ModernDayMoriarty]

Thanks for all these replies and not leaping onto the 'It's a hater - kill, kill!' bandwagon. Seriously, it's a great thing to show that debate does go on on public forums.

I'm not disputing that the Council come across as jerks at times. I don't actually hold it against them that they need more evidence. I just think that Bioware are very biased against them and portray them in a far more neglectful and stupid light then they really would be.

The root of the problem lies in how the Spectres operate. It was always silly that they gave you no support, equipment, funding, or even a ship. By forcing you to rely on the Alliance to supply the Normandy and its crew, it left Shepard at the mercy of Admiral Hackett who insisted on drowning you in extra missions that you pretty much felt pressured to accept (as Udina had also stressed this).

So they compromised you by placing you at the mercy of human military interests. The Turian conscillor always suspects you of just looking out for humanity etc.

This is a very unlikely scenario. If the Council aren't going to listen to their agents, then why even have them? They shouldn't need to produce hard evidence - as long as they can convince the Council to a reasonable degree. It is risky, as Saren showed, but just ignoring their agents unless they have taped confessions by criminal masterminds and ancient Gods is just ridiculous.

Far more likely is that they would send another Spectre to confirm and assist. But they don't, because though the obvious solution, it doesn't suit the way that Bioware want you to think about them, doesn't suit the story.

Again, I'm not disputing that the game is saying that only Cerberus will act and Council aren't doing anything. I'm just saying that this is a very lazy and unlikely way to have written it.

I realise that they can't cover everything. But wanting to be a Paragon and serve the Alliance and Council is hardly an unusual request, is it? It's pretty much the default for a lot of people, as many have said on this thread.

And though people may like to discuss shades of grey etc with Cerberus, we know what they did in ME1. (I didn't suggest that TIM didn't know - I just made the point that some might have tried to aegue he didn't know). The crimes they commited on innocent people were the stuff of nightmares.

Just imagine being held, naked in a cell, vomiting and choking on blood and vomit as your body changes into something horrendous or acid burns through your stomach lining or whatever... Doesn't even bear thinking about.

And they did this to humans, despite their claims to want to protect humanity. By the hundreds, maybe the thousands on colonies and ships... Indefensible in my opinion.

The way the game is written, the reality they choose to give you, is meticulously crafted to make you see them as being the dubious morality, but noble goals people. But that doesn't fly with what we know of them, and doesn't alter the utter helplessness that we Paragon players feel at not being able to say so.

Just look at all the missions that a Paragon cannot accept if you are playing in character. Any mission that results in Cerberus gaining extra tech or resources is a complete no. Only the Informant mission offers the chance to help the Alliance - every other time, you turn over the findings to Cerberus.

Plus, I can't accept Aria's datapad mission,or Patriarch's missions, because they are both gangsters and should be in jail or dead as far as my character is concerned. Not doing these missions denies you the two Blood Pack missions as well...

It all stacks up to a hell of a lot of lost EXP and creds. But I cannot and will not accept these missions as a Paragon. And it's not fair to try and make me.

You get to say to TIM that you aren't going to take orders from him. But you do have to! When you go to Horizon, you say 'Let's tell the Alliance and warn them'. He says 'No, I want my team first on the scene'.

'Well, that's nice isn't it, but screw you!' is what I would liked my response to be. (Well, words to that effect, anyway).

And nothing would have stopped me marching out and sending that message.

Same with the end of Jacob's loyalty mission. He dismisses me with a kind of 'That's all - leave me now' after biting my head off about how he's doing this for humanity and I know nothing about him.

I tell you, if I could have stepped into the screen and got my hands on him then...

Basically, you are asking too much to make Paragon feel this crappy about themselves as they play through this game. It's just not fair to force this kind of thing on us.

The game was written for a Renegade version. We know what their canon version is and the incident with Conrad Verner tells it all. Verner reacts as if you were Renegade towards him, regardless of what happened in the first game (I was nice to him, because he's actually a nice guy).

It just shows that they assumed most people would be Renegade. That's fine - maybe it's true. But this is an RPG and if I can't play my role as I want to (within certain parameters, I am aware) then the game fails. The best thing about ME was that you could play Shepard how you wanted and the game would appear to cater for that, however you wanted the story to go.

But the sequel just assumes Renegade and is ignorant of Paragon players needs. After Jacob's missions, Joker said 'Don't worry - we'll be gone before the Alliance shows up to help'

And my SHepard who reced to the Citadel first chance she got to renew her Spectredom, happily said 'Don't even give them the tailights...' as if she was absolutely fine and dandy with this arrangement.

The feeling of frustration was just.... I have no way to describe it, so I'm just to hit my head into the keyboard and maybe you'll get the idea.

djunbf48h

Can't say fairer than that, can you?

I realise Bioware were in a bit of a bind. Continuing a story when people can have gone in fundamnetally different directions was always going to be hard. But this was like water torture. A constant drip drip of humiliation and frustration, which prevented me from ever truly settling.

It leaves such a bad taste in the mouth, because I don't want to just run amok and declare it the worst game ever. I think this was one problem out of several, but there were good points too.

It's just that this one was a deal breaker - I didn't sign up just to see my girl chastened and mentally and physically beaten into a Cerberus uniform and mindset, when it's supposed to be a game where you decide how your Shep feels about things.

And I must again reiterate the silliness of the 'dead for two years' angle. The cheap way it's handled is just unforgiveable and again, the notion that you should serve these swines out of a sense of gratitude is just monstrous. If they were going to try and use her in that fashion, my Shep would rather space herself again - along with the Illusive Man and let him suck on space instead of those cigars.

They even rope in poor old Tali to be there at the start, for no better reason than to give credence to the Collector's data. (Because if they just found it or humans had it, Shepard would appear to be the most stupid person ever, seeing as how Cerberus could just have planted it and staged the attack on here and Normandy for that matter, themselves).

Tali is there, simply so the data is found by an outside source and thus more believeable. And because this is her role, she says basically nothing, hardly interacts with Shepard and leaves soon after with no real send off. It's lazy, annoying and manipulative writing.

Then again, Shepard goes along with the idea that the Reapers are involved... why? Because TIM says so?

I mean.... what on earth?

But hey, what's done is done. I doubt I'll play the game again, which is a shame. But it really did hurt to see my Shepard have to behave like that. And if I can't play as her properly, then what is the point of even calling this an RPG?

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Kitty
There is a huge difference between domination and extermination. Hitler regarded all non-"Aryans" as alien to Europe and that's not only Jews. He regarded all of them as sub-humans and he hates them simply for being.
EDIT: Hitler didn't seek world domination actually. Just dominance over an "aryan" Europe, "purified of non-Aryans".

Show me where and how the Illusive man hates aliens simply for being aliens? Show me how he seeks to exterminate aliens? Hitler would never collaborate with Jews or Slavs or seek to learn anything from them. The Illusive man on the otherhand wishes to learn from aliens for humanity's benefits. He is shown willing to collaborate with aliens. 

As for his experiments. He isn't targetting a specific race or ethnie of humans ir aliens. Hitler is. That might not seem like much of a difference to you, but it is for me.

Political assassination has been present since the dawn of time, I guess that makes all leaders like Hitler? 

I do find it offensive when people compare anyone and anythign to Hitler yes. But it's not personal.

And it's spelled "Aryan" not arian. Arian was a Christian sect.

EDIT: I have to go sleep now. Let's just say that we have different opinions and leave it at that.
Goodnight.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 février 2010 - 05:27 .

[Sleepy Buddha]

Shrewsbury760 wrote...

I took a pretty instant dislike to Miranda and Jacob and deliberately tried to engineer events in the last mission so Miranda would die (which I succeeded at, I'm happy to say. Good riddance!) The first chance I got to play the game without Cerberus squad members was one I jumped at, and I didn't miss either of them.

Miranda and Jacob are good people, but because you don't give them the benefit of doubt, you don't even get to know them.

Miranda in particular justifies your trust in her if you befriend/romance her. When you decide to blow up the collector base, if she's in your squad, she tells TIM to go screw himself and that she quits when he orders her to stop you from doing it.

But hey, you were too busy being prejudiced against them because they're "Cerberus people" to be bothered.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ModernDayMoriarty wrote...

Then again, Shepard goes along with the idea that the Reapers are involved... why? Because TIM says so?

I mean.... what on earth?

Facepalm. First of all TIM said he SUSPECTS the reapers being involved, he didn't know for sure. The mere suspicion makes it worth investigating.
SEcond, your character is an idiot then. She wouldn't have trusted TIM, she wouldn't have taken on the suicide mission (because afterall evil TIM told her to do it) which would have resulted in the collectors building the human reaper and everyone ultimately dying. Well done. I really wish humanity was made by people like that

[Kittykat1984]

Domination is what Hitler did in Europe though, yes some minorities that he saw as less then subhuman were put through worse, but he hardly treated any of the nations he conquered fairly. If you want evidence for the illusive man's anti-alien oppinions, the current Terra Firma party politics were created by the illusive man's manipulations, it says as much in Ascension when Paulson has his flashback of his first Cerberus mission. For reference here is a copy paste from mass effect wiki







Terra Firma is a human political party who opposes humanity's growing integration into the galactic community. The members believe humanity needs to stand alone if they are to remain strong. They cite Shanxi and the First Contact War as examples of why humans can't trust aliens, and mark Armistice Day with a protest every year. Part of their platform involves opposing the teaching of alien languages in schools.



Terra Firma was founded after contact was made with the turians, and humans became aware of just how many races comprised Citadel space. The party was created in response to a genuine concern that humanity's individuality might be diluted or lost after too much integration into alien cultures. The party's manifesto isn't particularly extremist, but they tend to be a magnet for xenophobes and radicals, and the party does nothing to curtail the racist comments of its members, under the pretext that the party will not abridge its members' freedom of speech.



In Mass Effect: Ascension, it is revealed that in 2173, Terra Firma was involved in a kickback scandal involving Nashan Stellar Dynamics. The fallout forced the current party leader, Inez Simmons, to resign. The candidates for party leader, Charles Saracino and another man, Claude Menneau, began vigorous election campaigning; Menneau was ahead in the polls by three points, when he mysteriously disappeared while en route to Shanxi for a political rally. No trace of his ship and crew were ever found, though plenty of theories and rumours abounded. With his rival removed, Saracino became the only candidate and was elected party leader.



Aboard the Normandy, Commander Shepard can discuss Terra Firma's ideas with Ashley Williams. Ashley is uncomfortable around aliens but gets angry if Shepard compares her opinions to Terra Firma's: she calls them a bunch of jackals who have strayed from the founders' original ideals, and hopes her reasons are more rational than theirs.



Shepard can also encounter a Terra Firma protest on the Citadel led by Charles Saracino himself. (This forms part of the assignment Citadel: Our Own Worst Enemy.) He is trying to get a political seat and asks the commander for support for his cause.











As far as I know Hitler never tried to exterminate the french, or Spanish. At least not well he was in power. He may have planned it, but he hadn't acted it out yet. Just as the illusive man hasn't acted out any plans he may have for the same. He did use non-Germans as slave labor, and even Germans near the end of the war. As far as I can tell Cerberus rarely works with any aliens on an equal level. They resented working with a Quarian to infiltrate the Migrant fleet. He isn't targeting a specific race, he hates them all he just works with them when he needs to.



I'm sorry for the misspelling of Aryan, as for the mass relay issue, you can see for yourself in ME2 not all ships got destroyed. the only reason its fatal to go through is because of black holes on either side of the relay, and the collector drones that hunt and destroy incoming vessels. Which without the upgrades you get for the Normandy likely would have blown the ship apart just like the first Normandy was destroyed.

[Jman5]

The way I see it, Bioware set us up in the first game to be with the Alliance/council (aka Paragon), then in the second one we work for Cerberus (aka Renegade). I imagine in the final game, we will make our choice whether to side with the Alliance/council, Cerberus, or go off on our own (Neutral). It will probably make a lot more sense once Mass Effect 3 comes out.



This is all pure conjecture, but that's how I see it playing out.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Kitty.
Terra Ferma is not like the national socialist party. It doesn't officially hate aliens, it is simply afraid that humanity would be engulfed by them and lose its identity. Difference. The National socialist party's agenda is officialy hatred for Jews and non-Aryans. As what you quoted just said, the Terra Ferma party had good ideals when first founded. Sure, it attracted idiots as well (all ideologies do), but it's not supremacist or speciest in theory. The two are incomparable.
Hitler didn't exterminate the French and Spanish because they are Aryans (And Spain was never conquered by Germany, it in fact helped put Franco in power). It was never in his agenda. Romas, Jews and eventually Slavs didn't recieve the same treatment because they are non-"Aryan" in Europe (which is ignorant, as genetically speaking, Slavs have more Indo-european genes than Germans).

And you assume too much. If you can't prove to me that TIM hates aliens, then that will remain pure speculation. It was TIM who pished for the co-development of the Normandy between humans and Turians. Does this sound like a guy who hates aliens? Not for me.

But once again, I really have to go to sleep. LEt's agree to disagree and leave it at that. And I appreciate your civility.
Goodnight.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 février 2010 - 05:47 .

[ModernDayMoriarty]

Why would she take him at his word, when she's seen what Cerberus are? They have every reason to lie, as her interest in the Reapers is well known. She is given no evidence to support this, but goes along with everything he says (because you're not allowed not to).

I don't care if the Reapers were involved or not - I'd still want to help out even if it was just the Collectors. But I would never joing Cerberus to do so. And it is simply not credible at all that the Alliance just wouldn't care at all about whole colonies being swallowed up.

They would at least send people to investigate. And Shepard's word carries the ultimate amount of credibility with humans. If she brought this to them, they'd believe it and they would act on it. Even if it came down to simply getting your old Normandy crew (the general crew I mean) and hi-jacking another ship!

You can label my character an idiot all you like, but not everyone is blessed with so much knowledge, money and technology that he can bring people back from the dead, make a better version of a joint species cutting edge ship and generally know everything about everything.

Just call him The Illusive Macguffin and have done with it. You can take it up with him when he drops by your colony and turns you all in husks or whatever. Good to know responsible people are looking after humanity, eh?

You are justying actions based on what the game tells you is true. The arguments of many here is that this portayal of events is badly skewed and blantantly manipulated to fit that version of events, with countless illogical decisions and situations.

Basically, it only works if the Good Guys are all incredibly stupid and the Bad Guys are allowed to word their press releases and delete parts they don't think will play well with the public.

Case in point for the Good guys must be stupid. TIM tells me to expand my team - by recruiting a psychotic, biotic murderer. Would any Paragon character think that was even a remotely good idea?

Even better, you are presented with your only option to free her - which will free all the inmates and almost certainly result in a massive death toll, just to acquire this extremely dangerous and definately criminal individual - and you don't even get an option not to do it!

I'm also not sure that you can call 3-4 lines a Dossier. It doesn't even mention that Jack is female! Neither does it list her crimes. Something you would probably want to know, in my opinion...

And as for the whole 'You have to be Alliance in the first game' - well, you are in the Alliance! And you get far more opportunities to just blank the Council and do things however you want to, than we Paragons got to take a stand on Cerberus in the sequel.

I'd also point out that the Collectors are so badly executed that it really doesn't feel like as much of a big deal as TIM and Shepard keep insisting. I'm not saying they aren't a threat, but the game makes its point about them, very poorly indeed.

It's just another case of 'But would that really happen?' where they are allowed to continually attack colonies and never encounter Alliance ships or anything that can get the message back. The Alliance would start beefing up its colonies in any sane telling of the story - and eventually it would all come out about the Collectors.

While we're on it, how do the Normandy's crew escape in their shuttle pods after the attack on the ship? Apparently the whole crew near enough survive - did the Collectors already have them in their set? Or were they waiting for the new Black Border edition of the Normandy?

Modifié par ModernDayMoriarty, 01 février 2010 - 05:48 .

[Andorfiend]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Cerberus is the only faction in the entire galaxy able or even willing to do something about the attacks against human colonies.

That's what we keep being told. It still doesn't make it true. I agree with pretty much everything the OP said. In particular there were some dialogue bits where you have a choice between saying "Cerberus has changed" and "They're not that bad". WTF!?! They were evil rotten murdering bastards in ME 1 and they don't really change in ME 2. TIM is a two-faced decitfull treacherous back-stabbing bastard and those are his good points! My 'sole survivor' Shepard hates his ancient chain-smoking stinky guts and plans to give him a .9c kick in the ass as soon as possible.

And yeah, the idea that SHEPARD, the poster boy for humanity, the most famous human in the galaxy, and still a Spectre I might add has no other options is a bit stupid. Hell he could have just shot Miranda, confiscated the Normandy 2 and done the whole game under his own flag after ripping those damm Cerberus logos off of his clothes. EDI might not have liked it, but there wasn't anything she could do about it without more direct control over the ship.

[MentalKase]

Okay this is how my character ended the game as. Pretty much got to tell the Illusive man where to stick it. I get to keep the Normandy. Miranda tells the Illusive Man that she quits. He goes back to his chair and pouts. The perfect ending for my Sole Survior who would never work for Cerberus.

[MGIII]

Great discussion.

[Pablo61]

I actually thought it was a nice touch. The whole 100% paragon, butterflies and daisies approach to things is ridiculously unrealistic and naive anyways. In the real world, we're always dealing with shades of grey, and I thought Cerberus was a great example of that in ME2. My paragade actually enjoyed working for Cerberus in the end (to an extent, my official play through has me blowing up the base, though I have an alternate ending for ME3 where I kept it, and obviously never forgetting what they had done in ME1). I think its wonderful that so many people want to do good and only make the best decisions, unfortunately thats just not how things work. In my opinion, if ME2 had been like that, I would have found it to be too corny/cliched.

[Tyridian]

I like the whole Cerberus tie-in. Gives you a chance to work in a more gray area. Bioware said that this was suppose to be the "Dark" part of the trilogy. Plus, its the only group that could do what they did. I am sure the Alliance or the Citadel Council would give a flying whoop if Shepard was dead.

[MGIII]

Andorfiend wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Cerberus is the only faction in the entire galaxy able or even willing to do something about the attacks against human colonies.

That's what we keep being told. It still doesn't make it true. I agree with pretty much everything the OP said. In particular there were some dialogue bits where you have a choice between saying "Cerberus has changed" and "They're not that bad". WTF!?! They were evil rotten murdering bastards in ME 1 and they don't really change in ME 2. TIM is a two-faced decitfull treacherous back-stabbing bastard and those are his good points! My 'sole survivor' Shepard hates his ancient chain-smoking stinky guts and plans to give him a .9c kick in the ass as soon as possible.

And yeah, the idea that SHEPARD, the poster boy for humanity, the most famous human in the galaxy, and still a Spectre I might add has no other options is a bit stupid. Hell he could have just shot Miranda, confiscated the Normandy 2 and done the whole game under his own flag after ripping those damm Cerberus logos off of his clothes. EDI might not have liked it, but there wasn't anything she could do about it without more direct control over the ship.

They were "evil" in the first game because you only interacted with them on the surface: raiding their bases and such. Now you are working with the brains of the operation, and you do see that there is a threat, and that Cerberus is the only ones willing to do something about it. Regardless of your affiliations, you do feel like you owe the people that brought you back to life. Especially when they give you unlimited resources to attack the real threat in the story.

The Alliance and the Council are shown to be incompetent within the first few lines of the game. It's all set up from there. Cerberus isn't a choice, it's the choice. The only one. You can show your allegiance to them throughout the story. Frankly speaking, the job wasn't getting done any other way, and Bioware wanted to make sure you knew that.