265 réponses à ce sujet

[Mallissin]

I think you guys all missed the point. The trilogy is a dramatic narrative. The first game was meant to set the stage and make you feel like the war can be won. The second taught you how your choices reflected in the story line, presented some very profound choices that will effect the third game (genophage/geth civil war/quarian homeworld, etc.) while also making you doubt the war can be won. The last game will be the final climatic confrontation where all your choices come together and, depending on how you played the first two, will determine if the Reapers win or not.



Making the hero team up with the sub-plot villain from the first game makes the situation seem more desperate while also underlining the overall message that either drastic measures or cooperation is necessary to win. The paragon path exemplifies cooperation in every decision, so it really shouldn't be surprising that a paragon character would play along with Cerebus. Especially when the Council (that he/she most likely saved) will still not cooperate with them even after all that happened in the first game. The Paragon itself is out of it's habitat in the Terminus system as well, since it's a region known for chaotic and downright unmoral uncultures. Being a Spectre in Terminus pretty much means nothing since there's no Council power there, hence why them reinstating you doesn't help any situation in the game.



Anyway, I thought the second game was fantastic. I'm looking forward to the finale. I predict that the third game will have four primary outcomes. Two are failures to stop the Reapers, one each for Paragon and Renegade, and two will be successes against the Reapers, one for each again. I'm sure all four will be pretty powerful in their own right. I also expect Mordin, Legion and Tali to return to settle the outcome of their respective loyalty choices (or failure to deal with them).



PS. I'd kill to work on Bioware's writing team.

[MentalKase]

I was really worried about this too in the game. But after talking with Anderson on the Citedal and him explaining that no-one want's to admit to the Reaper threat, including the Allaince, that I should work with Cerberus to stop it, I shouldn't trust them but because it was happing outside of Citedal space that it wouldn't be that big of a problem. I still got to hold my Spectre status but that would only help in Citedal space. ME2 doesn't happen in Citedal space except for Turchanka (yeah that was grossly misspelled) and then the Krogan run things there.



I just glad you don't have to work for Cerberus. You just co-operate with them becuase the Citedal won't fund your mission. You can help them with their agenda's but you can also turn any evidence you find that would hurt them over to the Allaince. Needless to say I always took the opportunity to forward the intel to the Allaince.

[Andorfiend]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Kitty.
Terra Ferma is not like the national socialist party. It doesn't officially hate aliens, it is simply afraid that humanity would be engulfed by them and lose its identity. Difference. The National socialist party's agenda is officialy hatred for Jews and non-Aryans. As what you quoted just said, the Terra Ferma party had good ideals when first founded. Sure, it attracted idiots as well (all ideologies do), but it's not supremacist or speciest in theory. The two are incomparable.

Don't be willfully naive please. A party that embraces the openly bigoted and fails to rebuke them has no moral grounds on which to claim not to be bigoted. They can claim it, but it's a false claim.

Now re TIM vs Hitler. Hitler was a head of state and an imbecile. TIM is not a head of state, and not an imbecile. Other than that I don't seen a great deal of difference between them except that Hitler was a demagouge and TIM prefers to lurk in the shadows.

It's damm clear in both the games and the novels that TIM desires to see humans as the dominant power if not sole surviving sentient lifeform in the galaxy. The fact that he is willing to use aliens and collaberate with them to gain access to their superior technology makes him smart, not nice. His methods are terror, pain and destruction. He is personally responsible for setting human colonization of the galaxy back decades if not centuries. (Remember all the colonial backers pulling out after the attack on Eden prime? TIM is responsible for the destruction of at least 3 more colonies and possibly more.) He also unleashed Rachni upon the galaxy who did not feel kindly disposed towards humanity unlike Shepard who at least got an oath of friendship first. That could easily have led (directly or indirectly) to the destruction of humanity.

In other words he risks the destruction of humanity (several times over) in his pursuit of his pro-human agenda. He has certainly done far more harm than good to humanity as a whole right  up until the point where Shepard destroys the Collectors.

I see no moral or ethical or even goal superiority on the part of TIM over Corporal Shicklegruber.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Moderdaymoriaty i can't help but wondering if your "paragon" character is even routed in the Mass Effect universe.



Let me give you an example.

Plus, I can't accept Aria's datapad mission,or Patriarch's missions, because they are both gangsters and should be in jail or dead as far as my character is concerned. Not doing these missions denies you the two Blood Pack missions as well...

Yes they are gangsters - But that is not illegal on Omega, They have done nothing against the law and therefore do not belong in jail - The citadel have no jurisdiction in the Terminus system and the laws there are different.



Being Paragon means you follow the law while Renegade treat the law as irrelevant it is not a Good/Evil axis, So whatever you equate as being Paragon is founded in something else but what it actually means.

[talon4000]

at least at the end you can tell TIM to shove it and go rogue from cerberus, obviously it won't actually take effect until ME3

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Cerberus does some bad things and they're more than what they were presented as in the first game.



They're prohuman yes, but they're also the only ones willing to look into the problem and they're providing Shepard with the means and literally the life to do so. The Council and the Alliance aren't doing anything about the Collectors, Shepard literally had no choice but to work with them.



Painting Cerberus as an organization as "evil" because of a few isolated experients (Remember how Subject Zero was developed by a rogue cerberus team?) is juvenile because they're more complex than that.

[Korsriddare]

Misplaced rant, really. The second Normandy is the best ship you can get to fulfill the task required at hand, not to mention the initial resurrection. Bioware simply took out the option of being Lawful Stupid, I imagine, that if you really refuse to leave the Lazarus Station or TIM's initial offer to look at Freedom's Progress, they might just have tossed you out the nearest airlock in your weakened state. Or a control chip.



Other than the rather weak options when interacting with the Council, I find little to contend about Paragon choices. You get Normandy 2, the best human pilot presumably, the doctor. Both of them being there because of you, in a way. Jacob and Miranda there to keep an eye on you, and both can be turned at the end, and characters who join Cerberus because of the Normandy assignment, without much knowledge of their activities (aka the engineers).



The dossiers he forward you are characters who have no affiliation with Cerberus, and may not even like it, but join because of you. The plot missions are missions you will go to either way, in order to investigate the collectors, and that Cerberus mission where you retrieve the data of their operative, you can choose to send the data to the Alliance. Not to mention telling him to bugger off at the end, blowing up the Collector Station as well.



Using Cerberus's resources to save the galaxy, while at the end screwing them out of tonnes of credits from the Lazarus Project, Normandy SR-2, one of his best operative (Miranda), an undoubtedly expensive-to-develop AI (EDI), and the other less notable crew members, not to mention a bunch of information on the Normandy itself which you can probably use in the future against them.



Not bad at all, I would say.

[ModernDayMoriarty]

I think the last poster misunderstands the whole concept of the Paragon. I don;t want to recruit murderers etc, because they're murderers! Jack is insane and of highly questionable value. Letting all the prisoners out to get to her is a Renegade option, however you slice it.

But what is shades of grey and realistic about this portrayal?

They give Cerberus all the information and suggest that the Council/Alliance cannot get it and aren't looking for it. Which is ridiculous, especially if Shepard showed up and told them they should be looking into it.

It's a complete Macguffin to make Cerberus into this organisation that can suddenly do and know everything. And it in no way justifies their treatment of people.

I'm not suggesting that the Alliance start flying warships into the Terminus systems. But when delicate situations like this arise, that's when special forces come in. It's what they're for, so the Council and Alliance can know what is happening in a sensitive region of space, without going in mob-handed.

Even if the Council wouldn't send a Spectre, the Alliance would send regular Spec Ops and spies to feel out what was going on. But they would need some evidence before they took large scale action. Just as with Saren and the Reapers, they need to be careful - they can't just invade someone's space with fleets and troops, claiming they're 'just looking for something - won't take long, honest'.

It's easy to make people believe that something is the only option, if you just don't mention any alternatives. By not allowing Paragons to present a proper case or look into alternative routes, they force you to completely go against what your character would do.

Their actions are sickening. Just because Bioware has decided to tidy up their image and present a very particular view of them as heroes of a kind, doesn't preclude what we and Shepard know they do to people.

They're trying to pretend the Holocaust never happened, so to speak.

But again, it's just the lack of ability to make our feelings known that really kills. And to make so many of the side quests unacceptable because they are showing you to be actively supporting and aiding Cerberus is just wrong. 

The game may let you say at (very rare) points that you definately aren't with them, but most of the time you and everyone else acts as if you are completely on board with it. And you just have to take their missions and bow and scrape to TIM.

It's incredibly annoying. Yes, there is a story to be told, but again it's an RPG for everyone supposedly. Not just Renegade players.

They need to stop insulting Paragon player's intelligences, by railroading them like this and trying to make them believe there was no other way. The very least they could have done is let us properly and consistently express how we felt about all this.

Modifié par ModernDayMoriarty, 01 février 2010 - 06:36 .

[MGIII]

Also, you're arguing against joining with Cerberus on principle. Oh no, they ate babies in the first game, so now I never want to associate with them ever, despite all the boons the IM offers you to get the job done, and that your end goals are similar. It's not lazy writing. It's part of the storyline. The Council/Alliance were not going to help you, or at least not quick enough for it to be effective. That point is harped onthe entire game. You can openly oppose or harmonize with Cerberus if you wish. The mission is, as it always was, the most important thing.

Enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that good stuff.

Modifié par MGIII, 01 février 2010 - 06:40 .

[Solid N7]

ModernDayMoriarty wrote...

I think the last poster misunderstands the whole concept of the Paragon. I don;t want to recruit murderers etc, because they're murderers! Jack is insane and of highly questionable value. Letting all the prisoners out to get to her is a Renegade option, however you slice it.

But what is shades of grey and realistic about this portrayal?

They give Cerberus all the information and suggest that the Council/Alliance cannot get it and aren't looking for it. Which is ridiculous, especially if Shepard showed up and told them they should be looking into it.

It's a complete Macguffin to make Cerberus into this organisation that can suddenly do and know everything. And it in no way justifies their treatment of people.

I'm not suggesting that the Alliance start flying warships into the Terminus systems. But when delicate situations like this arise, that's when special forces come in. It's what they're for, so the Council and Alliance can know what is happening in a sensitive region of space, without going in mob-handed.

Even if the Council wouldn't send a Spectre, the Alliance would send regular Spec Ops and spies to feel out what was going on. But they would need some evidence before they took large scale action. Just as with Saren and the Reapers, they need to be careful - they can't just invade someone's space with fleets and troops, claiming they're 'just looking for something - won't take long, honest'.

It's easy to make people believe that something is the only option, if you just don't mention any alternatives. By not allowing Paragons to present a proper case or look into alternative routes, they force you to completely go against what your character would do.

Their actions are sickening. Just because Bioware has decided to tidy up their image and present a very particular view of them as heroes of a kind, doesn't preclude what we and Shepard know they do to people.

They're trying to pretend the Holocaust never happened, so to speak.

But again, it's just the lack of ability to make our feelings known that really kills. And to make so many of the side quests unacceptable because they are showing you to be actively supporting and aiding Cerberus is just wrong. 

The game may let you say at (very rare) points that you definately aren't with them, but most of the time you and everyone else acts as if you are completely on board with it. And you just have to take their missions and bow and scrape to TIM.

It's incredibly annoying. Yes, there is a story to be told, but again it's an RPG for everyone supposedly. Not just Renegade players.

They need to stop insulting Paragon player's intelligences, by railroading them like this and trying to make them believe there was no other way. The very least they could have done is let us properly and consistently express how we felt about all this.

Easy dude is only a game, don´t take it personally and  this is the  vision of bioware not yours so stop complaining about silly things.

[Korsriddare]

Indeed. I will acknowledge that at some points, one would expect Paragon to find an alternate solution (aka prison ship), but even then, the Warden showed his hand first. And furthermore, this is a suicide mission after all. You want the best of the best, as long as they are willing to listen to your command. And over the course of the missions, you can ~stop~ them from murdering others, rather than to watch and let them do it.



The other point being, despite the Council's reinstatement of your status, they do not believe this issue is really galaxy-wide. They are not going to send in anything to help, they just hope you finish playing around with Cerberus and return soon. Likewise with the Alliance, what with them being more focus on fulfilling hiring quota. The one issue I have here is that a Paragon player is unable to contact your Spacer mother or Admiral Hackett, who is probably one of the few higher ups who will support you.



And really, even a Paragon does not have much physical data to try and convince the Council of the Reaper threat, and thus associate the Collectors to them. Pieces being stolen, part of Sovereign's AI core being taken by Cerberus instead, Vigil apparently no longer functioning on Ilos, and the worst part...



There seem to be no such thing as helmet cam in the ME universe. :/

[AtreiyaN7]

I was a Paragon, and I enjoyed the game a lot. I dealt with working for Cerberus as a necessary evil, and I never trusted TIM. You realize that there are times when you can do good in the game as a Paragon despite having to work with Cerberus, don't you? There were a few times where I took Renegade-type options though because I've loosened up a bit. In dealing with people, I was generally as much of a Paragon as I could be however, like saving Garrus from going totally dark side on HIS loyalty quest. I even paragonized Zaeed to an extent (or at least had him acknowledge that he's part of a team and made him loyal ).

[Shadow_Phoenix]

I agree with you about the Cerberus angle and Biowares 24-esque style in this game. However, for storywise you can stick it to the organizations at least once.



Also think on this, Shepard been gone 2 years, all his crew has moved on, the council is against him and covered up the Reapers. He has no resources of his own, and your told in the beginning that any military help would have him chasing Geth not reapers.



Meanwhile, The Illusive Man believes you and wants to help, he saved your life, gives you a ship and crew, and says you have free reign to do things as you see fit. I can't say more without letting spoilers, but it's clear that Shepard is in charge of the mission and is just being funded. Kinda like an orphanage being sponsered by Phillip-Morris, evil company, but the money can do real good.



I haven't made it through the game yet, but I am hoping that at the end or in ME3, you can take Cerberus down for good, or maybe convince them to change. I can't imagine Paragons continuing to work for them

[SpideyKnight]

 Unfortunately, that amount of choice wouldn't be feasible in the game.  It would still be in development as they would have to give choices to those who go with Cerberus and those who choose to do paperwork for a year while humans die by the thousands.

You may not like it be Cerberus is the quickest way to get the job done.  Levy that against your conscience.  Would you really be fine watching colonies disappear, humans dying in droves while you are wrapped up in so much political tape as to damn near be cruxified with it?  That's a tough choice.

[RiouHotaru]

Veritasinpersonam wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Cerberus is the only faction in the entire galaxy able or even willing to do something about the attacks against human colonies.

This.

The Council and the Systems Alliance both think Shepard was dangerously delusional. There is no way Shepard is talking either group into commanding a ship when both are convinced the Reaper threat is not real. 
Additionally its a bit hard to buy the "back from the dead". If someone told you this story, you'd think they were nuts and at most wonder what they did for the last two years. Even if they buy the Lazarus project idea, there is no telling what was done to Shepard's mind. Shepard is simply in no way a credible source.

Giving the Systems Alliance a new and improved copy of their best ship would tie up the whole piece as the military investigate how their most advanced ship was built in secret by an outside organization.

Truth is, Cerberus invested so much in Shepard (Lazarus Project) that they're not likely to kill him for being disobedient. Cerberus also fully accepts that the Reapers are real (although it is a good question as to why) and provided Shepard nearly unilimited resources with carte blanche to proceed however he sees fit. Shepard, being fully aware of the enormity of the threat, would be hard pressed not to take advantage of the opportunity, as distasteful as the source may be.

 
Not to sound like a broken record but...

This.

The only annoyance is (and rightfully so) is that people seem to hear the word "Cerberus" and everything else Shepard could ever say in his/her defense goes right out the window.  Yes, Cerberus did some nasty things, but if I don't work with them I'll never get to the bottom of this so what the f*** am I supposed to do?!

That's how my Shepard feels.  Yes, she does NOT like the idea of working with Cerberus, but they are giving her a chance to make a significant difference.  As for the ending and TIM getting upset (I'm a Paragon)?  Well, he did ask that Emily Shepard be brought back as she was before, ideals and morals included.  You got exactly what you asked for, Ilusive Man.

[AuraofMana]

To be honest, I found Cerberus more to my liking than the Alliance + Council. The Council didn't believe your stories 3 times (Saren, Sovereign, and Reapers) and they paid for the first two times. I've given up on them, plus the fact that politics get into the ways of getting things done. Cerberus is much more understanding and efficient. Add to the fact that they blew 4+ billion credits on RESURRECTING you, you should feel grateful. Calling them terrorists is a bit extreme, their methods are just more direct and more brutal. Seriously, when the entire galaxy is threatened, I could care less if someone is using brutal but effective methods to save it.

[Thomas O]

[quote]ModernDayMoriarty wrote...

Lastly, if you do like to play as a Renegade, then knock yourselves out, because the story more or less works in that case (its still boring, but at least it tracks if you're a 'Gade). It's only if you want to play as a Paragon and someone of moral principle, that the game confines and constricts all the joy out of playing.
[/quote]

I don't know how you got this out of the game....when your playing Paragon your saving peoples lives, becoming a specter again, making the terminus system peaceful, and at the end your saying f'u to the "Illusive Man"

[quote]ModernDayMoriarty wrote...
So I guess the main issue I have with this game is Cerberus. Namely that I hate having to work for them, and it has pretty much ruined the game completely for me. I found it outrageous that a Paragon Shepard isn't allowed to take them to task for all their vicious experiments etc, and the idea that you would work for them under any circumtances.
[/quote]

As you find out by playing Jacks loyalty mission Cerberus had very nasty people working for them that even the 
"Illusive Man" didn't know what was going on ((  And you can be extremely rude to him when you bring this up)). They work in Cells, the cells do not talk to each other. Also, they brought you back from the dead, I think I would give them at least a thank you and lets see how the world is and why its so crucial for Shepard to be with them.


[quote]ModernDayMoriarty wrote..
This game only works if you are even modestly receptive to Cerberus, but my character simply never would be. They are simply too villainous and the game just doesn't play fair in allowing you to tell things like they are. It constantly pulls the '24' card of saying 'There are no other options - this is the only way we can do this etc etc'.
But it just isn't true. Shepard is someone who can convince everyone from street thugs to high ranking diplomats to follow his/her train of thought - except when it's the Council and the Illusive Man. With the Council, she just says 'Oh, if you're going to be like that!' and blows them off; with the Illusive Man, it's just 'Aye aye Sir; where next?'
Shepard has plenty of options, if you were just allowed to pursue them. For a start, you could make a proper appeal to the Council. Request private audiences with at least the Asari, Human and Salarian councillors. Sit down with them and say 'Look, colonies really are being attacked. I want to help, but I don't want to join Cerberus'.
[/quote]

There attacking colonies outside the council space, so no this would not work.

[quote]ModernDayMoriarty wrote..
In more extreme methods, you could ask Anderson to have a C-Sec team ready at the embassy. Arrest Miranda and Jacob as you walk in, impound the Normandy and confiscate the ship's logs, crew etc for questioning. Jacob wouldn't take much convincing, if you simply sat him down and told him about Cerberus' heinous actions in ME1.
[/quote]

Yes lets impound the ship, take everyone into question, and have the collectors keep stealing our people, and have all the reapers, collectors, keepers destroy us, while we sift through the data designing the ship, recruiting who knows what to be on your team and be dead by the time you could not do anything.

[quote]ModernDayMoriarty wrote..
And what are Cerberus going to do about it? They are terrorists - they can't very well complain if they get arrested for swanning into the Citadel in an exact replica of a top secret Turian/Human military ship that was supposedly destroyed in mysterious circumstances. I doubt Udina or Anderson would be very vocal in supporting their rights...
[/quote]

They are not terrorists, they might be human-survivalist , but they are a corporation that has there hands in everything.

[quote]ModernDayMoriarty wrote..
If you really couldn't convince the Council, then you could still go military. Contact Ash or Kaiden, or ask Anderson to point you to someone who would spare a ship and crew. The fact is that human colonies are being attacked and someone has to do something about it. Ash and Kaiden even say that they would have helped if Shepard had just come to them (and I was screaming at the screen, wondering why I hadn't been allowed to do just that).
It's the disparity between how the game treats your interaction with the Council/Alliance and Cerberus that really kills it. See the Council in both games and it makes you shout and rail at them, as they accuse you of all sorts (usually even when you're trying to be polite). And this is blatant manipulation by Bioware, because you can make no such arguments to The Illusive Man. Your resistance to co-operation with Cerberus is all 'I don't know if I can trust you' and 'You're racist terrorists etc'. But that's completely besides the point! It isn't about trust or whether I prefer the system - it's the fact that they are so unremittingly vicious and wiped out whole colonies themselves with their experiments - on humans I might add.
[/quote]

Its nice that they want to help you, but they can't your doing stuff in the terminus system. Now that the humans are in the council there not going to allow there ships go into that space, even though human colonies are being attacked. And as Ashley said she was there at that base because they got a tip that you were alive, meaning alliance does not care, or they can't do anything about the collectors. She was just there to see why in the hell you were with Cerberus.

[quote]ModernDayMoriarty wrote..
It doesn't help that Cerberus have been changed since the last game. Whereas before, they were esentially a bioweapons 'Science without morals for the furthance of Humanity' version of Babylon 5's Psi-Corps, they are now portrayed as a more open, Maquis style group. That's a big change, because the Maquis generate considerably more sympathy than the Psi-Corps. The former are frequently written as heroes, fighting off evil on their borders at any cost, whilst the Federation does nothing to help (which is basically what Cerberus now are).  Conversations with them and their followers always get boiled down to 'they get the **** done, whilst the Council do nothing etc etc.' Never mind that it only works like that because Bioware have manipulated it that way. (In a similar way that regardless of what you did with the Rachni in ME1, they chewed you out - Bioware just didn't want you to like them).
[/quote]

What we did in the first game was just discover one Cell that Cerberus was operating, and its not that they get the job done. its they get the job done to better the human species. But that should not hinder how you react in the mass effect world unless your pro-human.

[quote]ModernDayMoriarty wrote..
Cerberus are suddenly vastly more informed, armed, possessed of incredible tech etc and the Alliance is just blanket termed as stupid and neglectful, despite this being highly improbable (would the Council really not send even one of their other Spectres to investigate or the Alliance really not have any problems with no help from them?!)
[/quote]

The alliance did with ashley, but remember were playing in the terminus system.

[quote]ModernDayMoriarty wrote..
And the whole ship is like a gigantic piece of Cerberus propaganda. The crew is filled with elements intended to seduce players into accepting Cerberus. Bright, plucky, loveable crackpots like the engineering duo and Yeoman Chambers, EDI, the cranky cook etc, make the ship seem warm and friendly. The presence of Joker and Dr Chakwas also supports this (who are just two examples of people who should know better, going along with this - Samara is another). The crew constantly make 'good honest working folk' conversation as you pass, about their kids and families and how they'd be dead if it wasn't for Cerberus etc etc. They put in the sexy, ice queen with all the curves etc to win over 'The Lads' and give you this entirely artifical feel of freedom to do what you want, with no Council or Alliance ordering you about (again, highly manipulative, as it was always very odd that Shepard had so much oversight, despite the Spectre mandate sugesting that wouldn't be the case). But this is all just window dressing to get the player on side. We know what Cerberus have done - the first game was filled with tales of their terrible misdeeds. They injected acid blood into helpless victims just to see what would happen. They transformed people into biological weapons and killed everyone who tried to expose them. Making Shepard throw in with these people and not letting her tell the ridiculously ignorant crew members about the horrors she has seen their organisation perpetrate is just too much. Because it's clear from the way they talk, people only conisder Cereberus' dark rep to be about possible alien racism and defiance of Alliance and Council with acts of terrorism etc. Which are hardly small crimes, but certain disenfranchised people could get on board with that. Their medical horroshows though are an entirely different matter. And saying it was particular cells, just shows the danger that an organisation with such lax oversight (if you want to say TIM didn't know or approve of those cells), is capable of becoming.
[/quote]

So are you going to give in to the "illusive man" tricks or are you going to make them "loyal to you" and not him?

[quote]ModernDayMoriarty wrote..
The game only works if you buy into this highly manipulated and railroaded path. Just saying Shepard is doing the only thing she can, doesn't make it true. She doesn't need the Normandy - the intro makes it abundantly clear that it isn't the ideal ship for the job anyway! The collectors can see through the Stealth System - which is the only advantage the Normandy had. A Paragon Shepard should be trying to convince the Council and Alliance to give her control of a much heavier craft, a Cruiser or something. And just because the game doesn't let you or the Council speak to each other like civilised beings, doesn't make it believable - it exposes how badly executed and manipulated the story is.
[/quote]

The Normandy 2 didn't have cloaking in it...
Your cruiser would be torn up in 10 sec if you tried to get into the omega 4 relay. And I will say it again the Council and the Alliance are not going to send any ship into the Terminus system unless you want war. 

[quote]ModernDayMoriarty wrote..
And lastly... there is the whole 'Dead for two years' nonsense. Clearly just put in to give you a reason to thank Cerberus and be wiling to work with them. Putting aside the utter nonsense of the whole thing (you can recreate the Prothean cipher, Shepard's mind etc, along with her body?), it's all over in a flash. Shepard takes it all very well, doesn't she? She doesn't even say anything about it, never dwells on it and even if you stated that you believed in God in ME1, doesn't worry that she experienced nothing whilst 'dead' etc. Plus no-one else seems remotely interested in this event (Tali must see this sort of thing a lot...). The fact is, it's not real to her or us, because so little is made of it. And saying that she and her love interest etc should be grateful and do whatever Cerberus say is utterly ridiculous. If a loved one returned from the dead, but was completely different from the person you knew in terms of morality, it'd be worse than if they never came back. You don't just stop being who you are, and Paragon Shepard towing the line of an organisation she fought and hated for their evil and sadism, because they saved her... Well it feels uncomfortably like a rape victim broken to the Master's Lash, just because the Master is being nice to them for now (particularly if you lived through Akuze). At the very least, it deserved some soul searching, where a Paragon would have to weigh their disgust at the organisation to the relief and bewilderment that they resurrected her. There were great possibilities for inner torment etc there, the need for her to carry on and be a symbol for Humanity now she is back. But instead... nothing.  And it could so easily have been avoided. If you want to make Shepard have to follow Cerberus, take the Council etc out of the equation on a more believeable note. Have them engaged in war against certain races for example, so their attention is focused on a threat they can see, as opposed to a threat that might be coming. It would be easier for the Paragon to accept their decision not to help under those circumstances. You could also say that your previous team members are away in that conflict, where you cannot follow them, much as you want to see them - because you have a Shadow war (don't say it) to fight, for which you have no option but to use Cerberus. THAT is something I could have got behind. It would have made sense to me, rather than the 'But thou must!' way that you're made to serve Cerberus, as it stands. In this situation, you would be able to cut away the Citadel altogether. Might annoy some, but it serves no purpose in this game anyway. It's a just a cancerously sparse location that exposes how railroaded you are into accepting working for our friends, the big C. On the offchance that you're still reading this, I say again that I have written this as someone who cares about the series and Bioware. But having to do Cereberus' bidding, when I had so many other options on how to proceed, made me thororougly miserable. I just couldn't enjoy the game, because I was constantly frustrated at how I was unable to defend myself when people said 'You're with Cerberus - you're a fool, they're evil etc', given that I agreed 100%, but wasn't allowed to say anything other than 'I have to - it's the only way...' (and sometimes you can't even say that)> And to add insult to injury, they even give you side missions! So not only am I helping them on the main mission, I have to do their dirty work, securing materials and weapons for them?
I think not!
[/quote]

This is how I sum up this game for myself. Everything you do in the first game, put it into a jar, and trow it at a wall. Now you have a lot of pieces on the ground you have start all over again. Are you going to be tempted by what Cereberus is giving you? Are you going to be pro-human? Or do you see a big picture, the "Illusive Man" says he sees the big picture, but as we all find out at the end he is just looking out for the greater good of humanity. But like myself playing a paragon Shep, I am looking out for everyone. And the all the stuff I did in the first game helped me remember that, and things I did in the Terminus system. My Shep knows we can't stop the reapers, collectors, keepers by ourselves. Some of my old team does not know this or lost hope, the council does not know this anymore. The Quarian, Geth and the Krogan didnt think much of it either, but its your job to show them the light.

[Arijharn]

Hi! I'm a full bar paragon (with some renegade choices, simply because I don't really like miscellaneous people who plead for their life pulling a gun on me). Also, spoilers lurk in this post.

I like the idea of differing species co-operating and getting along, but I also accept that with a myriad of different motivations that guide these species that disagreements can and will happen. I therefore believe organisations like Cerberus are a necessary 'evil.'

To be blunt, while I think Cerberus was highlighted quite significantly in a negative light in the first game (to the point where they were rather dismissively illustrated as solely villians) I think that they should exist. What afterall, is the bad thing about self-powerment? To paraphrase Ashley: 'I like having friends, but I shouldn't always be working under the assumption that they'll stay that way.'

If the human military are not as good as the military of other species in some manner (in a real or imagined sense) then I think it behooves someone to try and rectify that flaw. In fixing that flaw, I also believe you should go the whole nine yards and make it a massive advantage.

Sure, it's totally distasteful that they resort to pretty extreme methods (a la Corporal Toombs, who I was distressed to never actually face down with him throughout the game despite his rather angry email) but then again, I can't think of people who would willingly 'volunteer' to have Thresher Maw venom pumped through their veins either, so what can you do? Dismiss it? What if it gives a tangible  response? Isn't it your responsibility to cover as many bases as possible to ensure your entire species survival down the line? Sure, it is unethical now, but I'm pretty sure Cerberus banks on the fact that history will eventually vindicate them, and frankly sometimes you have to break a few eggs (as long as it isn't too many...)

Having said that, I decided to blow up the base at the end and my rationale was as follows. It was less the fact I was giving the finger to the man (although that was somewhat enjoyable):
1) As Legion say's, taking their tech makes you dependent on it (this was also mentioned by Sovereign in the first game). I refuse to believe that the species of the galaxy can not make something fancy on their own terms, even if it was something as 'basic' as having a circular or spring shaped mass accelerator weapon for a new dreadnought (i.e., something to artificially inflate the size of the barrel without it becoming ridiculous).
2) There is no guarantee that any research taken on the base could have meaningful rewards or rewards in time for whenever the Reapers decide to show up.
3) If the Klendagon Reaper is any indication of Reaper/Collector technology, being dead doesn't mean it's defenseless or less dangerous (possibly much more so since it's now insidious). Even the Reaper/Human could be more trouble than it's worth.
4) A burst that kills organics isn't a guarantee that they would all be dead in my mind, too much uncertainty about the Collector's still existed.

Anyway, I kinda think the OP's post (while interesting and having good points) is much like what Jacob points out near the start; that alliance personnel are all to ready to dismiss them just because of their uniform.

[ModernDayMoriarty]

Please understand; I'm not trying to be awkward about this.

I understand that for the game to work how Bioware imagined it, you would have to end up working for Cerberus. And I can absolutely get on board with the idea of working for them because it's the only option and even then only woking with, not for them.

But ONLY if they had convinced me that it genuinely was the only way. And this is something that the game spectacularly fails at. The game needed credible arguments for why you couldn't do things in a Paragon way (the impounding of the ship at the Citadel for example and replacing it with more reliable people).

All the while, I and others here were instead left fuming that obvious arguments and alternative solutions to this extremely distasteful union, were being stolen from, their lips. Hence the ill feeling.

It's easy to look at the game as is, and say that the path taken is not only the justifable course, but the only course. But only because the Paragon's way of doing things and the arguments and actions they would need to deploy to do it their way have been hobbled and not included.

THAT is what is so annoying and I know most people here seem to get this, but I just wanted to make sure. I'm not saying the game should have had a wildly different route available., They just needed to make some arguments that made sense to close off those routes..

Not just 'Because the Citadel and Alliance are stupid and don't care'.

Because for a Paragon character, this is asking a whole hell of a lot. You are asked to recruit a Krogan Doctor who experiments on his people and throws the rejects away to be killed in target practice. Sure, you can call him a monster - but then you have to ask him to join your team.

Many of you are approaching this from a Renegade 'do what it takes to get the job done!' angle, but you're ignoring the fact that if Paragon do that, they aren't playing Paragon characters anymore, are they?

The game needed much more flexibility to allow the Paragon player to simply refuse to accept certain members (yes, the last three, not counting Legion are semi-optional, but they include some of the most Paragon friendly choices!)

And saying that it's okay because you're sending them on a suicide mission anyway, is another Renegade way of looking at it.

The Paragon and Renegade thing is so fundamental to your enjoyment of the game, that if there is a problem with it, it's serious. The game actively encourages you to foster one alignment or the other, but the game is so obviously written from a Renegade point of view.

It's the lack of consideration that Paragon players have received, the lack of appreciation for the way they would want to play their characters. That's what so objectionable.

This might seem like an awful lot of fuss over nothing for those disposed to the Renegade path, but guys, you got what you wanted. We didn't.

By all means, make us work for Cerberus. But allow us to protest at it properly, and not just kowtow to TIM's every wish. A couple of satisfying minutes at the end, doesn't make up for the enforced and unjustified slavery of our characters throughout the rest of the game.

Allow us to make real defences of our views, to the Council, to the crew, to TIM etc. It doesn't have to change anything, but at least we're getting to play our character's alignment properly.

Remember also that a Paragon player also may very likely care about how her actions look to those who hear about it. It's obvious that people set great store by what Shepard says and does and many use that to decide what behaviour is and isn't acceptable.

If Shepard starts working with terrorists and torturers, it's not doing anyone any good, is it? I don't expect Renegade players to care about it themselves (and I'm saying you're wrong to think that, just as I don't have anything against any other ways you play your characters).

But try to understand that it matters to how I and many other Paragon players choose to play our characters. It is extremely troubling and upsetting when people accuse us of being Cerberus stooges. And that would be great fun, if we were just allowed to defend ourselves (with high enough Paragon ratings of course, depending on the situation).

But just having to tow the 'By any Means Necessary' party line gets very, very wearing.


And a last word about the Normandy being unsuitable.
You're still thinking in terms of how the game insists it must be done. To traverse the Terminus systems in peace, you would simply need a ship - any ship. As long as it isn't flagged Alliance, any ship like the Ebon Hawk will do. Just big enough for Shepard and her team to jet about collecting intel.

When the target is acquired, then you could bring in the big guns. When the threat is confirmed, they have to send in the fleet, confrontation with the locals or no. A swift surge towards the array with a sizeable fleet and the suicide mission would be a whole lot more survivable.

Because the game pulls the Macguffin out of the bag big time when Normandy attacks the Omega relay. They know the ship isn't strong enough to stand up to the Collectors and they know they can see throuhg the Stealth Systems. But on the other side of the relay, there is no real resistance...

Well, isn't that convenient. The aliens have had an attack of 'Battlefield Earth' selective stupidity... And even then, the Normandy gets pounded.

 Again, not saying this option should be there, but we at least needed some proper debate amongst the Paragon related bodies like the Council, Anderson, Kaiden+Ashley etc about why we couldn't.

Just giving us the brush off and saying 'It's politics and you're Cerberus so we can't help' was a crummy thing to do, when Paragon players were leaping up and down shouting:

'HOW MANY TIMES?!!! I - AM - NOT - WITH - CERBERUS!!!!'

[Arijharn]

I had more issues with becoming a defacto 'enemy' of TIM at the end by my choice to be honest. After my experiences with the self-righteous Council in the first game, I didn't expect them to come out swinging in my favour in the second (although they did say they owed me a great personal amount... at least the benefit of a doubt would be nice).



I would of liked the option to explain to TIM why I decided like I did in some factor (which is why I chose the 'second option'). I would of also liked to upload my new shiny Reaper dossier at the end too:

A) Alliance HQ

The Citadel Council

C) Cerberus Command.

[Shady314]

Harkmagic wrote...

I completely agree, and the only way I got through it was at every opertunity to to remind everyone that I do not work for Cerberus. I also reveled in every chance I got to screw over Cerberus.

I also had to play under the assumption that the crew, and squad, at least after playing a while, was Loyal to me and not to Cerberus. Except for Miranda I wanted to put a bullet in her head.

Of course the biggest disappointment of ME2 was not getting to put a bullet in TIM's head.

You know you can get Miranda to tell the Illusive man off and say she quits right?

The crew IS absolutely loyal to you and not Cerberus by the end if you do a good job.

[Thomas O]

I don't remember that, do you have to have a relationship with her?

[Shady314]

Thomas O wrote...

I don't remember that, do you have to have a relationship with her?

Possibly. I found it by bringing her with me for the last fight and choosing to destroy the base. She was loyal and in a romance. I'd love to find out what happens if you're not romancing her or even better if she does not have loyalty.

EDIT: Checked youtube and found a female shepard destroying the base with Miranda. She still says it so romance not required. Probably just loyalty but still not 100% on that.

Modifié par Shady314, 01 février 2010 - 08:49 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Here's why there is no other way: the Council has never had faith in Shepard, and they want to deny the existence of the Reaper threat. They will never acknowledge it and have basically painted you as a sort of raving lunatic on the whole. Remember Mouse's Shepard VI and what it's supposed to say? *sigh* The Alliance won't support you either, so you're limited in your options. By the end of the game however, you can ditch TIM and the crew follows you like Shady up there says.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 01 février 2010 - 08:42 .

[TuringPoint]

I never worked for Cerberus. I'm a paragon player, and I loved the game. At the end you get to say F- you to cerberus, officially.  All of your shipmates say they're working for you, not Cerberus.  

So, no. It's obvious you don't understand the most fundamental aspect of the plotline, but you're entitled to do that and live with it.

Modifié par Alocormin, 01 février 2010 - 08:37 .