265 réponses à ce sujet

[TuringPoint]

Thomas O wrote...

I don't remember that, do you have to have a relationship with her?

She resigned in the final mission for my Femshep, with normal loyalty.   I had done her loyalty mission, so maybe that's what counts - or maybe she just realizes that keeping the base around is bad

[ModernDayMoriarty]

Again, I can only reply to the posts that defend Cerberus' actions with a 'Are you honestly saying you condone their actions?'

I acceot that taking a Renegade point of view, you can find ways to justify their actions as necessary. But to a Paragon mind, that's just excuses. There are other ways of doing this. The game doesn't allow them or let you contemplate them - but they are there.

Saying it's the only way is simply following the train of logic Bioware set you on. It's nothing new - films and TV, books etc do it all the time in order to tell the story they need to tell. 24 is infamous for doing this exact thing. But even that series has started to question this 'The ends justify the means' standpoint, as new writers who are less receptive to that mindset enter the writing team.

Cerberus have commited atrocities. Jacob does say that people only see the uniform, but my point is that they changed what Cerberus was from ME 1 to ME 2. They barely ever mention the medical experiments and torture, sweeping it right under the rug, except from a few lines from Garrus and an e-mail from Toombs.

As Shepard points out in the prison ship on Paragon, the beatings the guards give out, twist them as well as the people they are hurting. Saying you have to do something does not make it true. It only means that you think it's necessary and have convinced yourself of that fact.

You are defending the Renegade view - that's fine. But it isn't everyone's view and the game should cater to both alignments. And I think you can see from the comments of Paragon players, that they did not feel well served by what this game forced them to do in reletive silence.

Saying that you can't impound the ship because you might not have time... Weak argument, I'm sorry. Taking the easy and convenient path = Renegade. Fine if you agree with it; utterly not if you don't.

And refusing to see that the Council and Alliance are only so short sighted and stupid because Bioware are deliberately writing them that way to give the Cerberus/Renegade argument credibility, shows a complete disregard for the experiences of the Paragon players.

We deserve proper characters, acting in a believeable way and real attention to addressing our very obvious concerns. (Most notably, allow the Council and Shepard to speak to each other in a sensible way). No more 'The Councils are just jerks'.

Or else stop pretending to allow the choice to be Paragon and just make Shepard a Renegade, but with different levels of Renegadeness. 

Because honestly, you've got time to comb the galaxy for Iridium, but no time to impound the ship and take a stand against Cerebus' supposed only option? Time to aid Quarians in disputes over slave contracts etc, but not enough time to try and find a solution that doesn't involve working with an organisation that operates as Cerberus does?

Ask all the people who died on those colonies as they were being changed in absolute agony, ask Toombs who life was ruined forever, ask Kahoku as they were injecting him with lethal poison, his men as they being led to their deaths by Thresher Maws...

Do you think they were happy to lay down their lives, because it was necessary? Would you be? Is that the kind of world you want to live in, that you would die for if Cerberus decided you were a good test subject?

Or would you want someone to come along and put a stop to sick nonsense like that? There will always be people saying that X must be done, Y must be sacrificed.

A Paragon does not believe that. If you do, fine. But that's your opinion and we are allowed ours too.

If the writers have already decided that the Renegade path is going to be the path you have to take in this game, then why even give the illusion of free choice?

Anyway, I've had my say and we'll just be going round and round if we continue. Basically, you can try and justify it any way you can. And those reasons will likely make sense to you. And I'm not here to debate the absolute rightness of one side or the other.

I'm just saying that we have the right to express our views and to play the game in reasonable expectation that our needs will be catered for as well. There are two arguments to be made, but the game only really allows one to be heard.

And that's just not playing with a straight bat, as they say.

Anyway, you've been a wonderful audience. Bioware should be as proud to have so many passionate and interesting minds playing their games, as I'm sure we are proud of them for setting the standard in modern RPGs.

Modifié par ModernDayMoriarty, 01 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[TuringPoint]

Moriarty, name ONE thing a Paragon Shepard had to do that sacrificed anyone or anything because it was expedient? Just name one thing.



The whole premise of the story is NOT that you're working for Cerberus, but that Cerberus, while evil, brought you back to life and pointed you in the right direction to fight the Reapers.



To the extent that you are working for Cerberus, you don't have a choice to defy what they want because...



1. What they want is not evil, in this case.



2. They are watching everything you do at every instant. Not that they actually have the power to act against you once you're in charge of the ship, as it turns out - as you figure out if you go the Paragon path through to the end and you don't just give up on morals or decide your Shepard can't have any for working with Cerberus.



So, my argument for now? Shepard is never forced to do anything evil. That's the important thing.

[Thomas O]

No I think your defending the Renegade view, I can't recall but there was a mission that Shepard said the game thing. In "Bringing down the sky" Shepard said to the Bararian leader are you blaming these people who were not even there. Jacob, Miranda they were not the scientist that did the experiments, are you going to crucify them or are you going to try and make them into better people?

Modifié par Thomas O, 01 février 2010 - 09:03 .

[Shady314]

ModernDayMoriarty wrote...
And I think you can see from the comments of Paragon players

I loved it as a Paragon. Of course I play my Shepard as a real person and don't judge him by the color of the bars on the squad menu.

The colonies attacked so far are inside the Terminus systems. I have no idea why humans are stupid enough to build colonies inside. Building it on the borders seemed stupid enough. Remember in ME1 when they didn't even want to send a stealth ship to an unknown planet with no political affiliations to stop a rogue Spectre with an enemy fleet? They wanted to sit back and wait for him with their own! You expect them to take even bolder action to save colonies in there?

A Paragon player does have other options but they all realistically take time. A LOT of time. Your Paragon would honestly sit around and let thousands of humans die so that he wouldn't have to feel dirty by association? Then he is NOT a Paragon.

I mean some of your ideas honestly. IMPOUND THE SHIP?! Did you even play ME1. That worked out so well in the first one. How you made an appointment with the council and Udina and then through polite discourse and clever negotiation quickly got your ship released right? Oh wait...

How is that possibly going to be a good idea? You actually think it's going to be given back to you anytime soon?

[ModernDayMoriarty]

You mean opening all those cages and letting the prisoners out to be killed wasn't evil? Not to mention the fact you are releasing a murderer from jail?

And you being asked to aid an organisation that commits evil actions (and you know they do, they may even have done it to Shepard!)

I didn't say you were forced to commit evil acts - I said you were forced to serve an organisation that commits evil acts.

The point was the game presents little opportunity to express that disquiet. It's fine to feel that way, but it weighs down on you that everyone keeps assuming you are fine with it.

And again, citing time as your reason not to take a better path is the definintion of a Renegade action. The more convenient path.

But don't think I'm just dismissing what you say. If the game was to make this point (and do it credibly), then at least it would have made some effort. But I'd have liked the chance to TRY.

Just saying you've got to do it their way and manipulating the responses so it becomes true, is blatantly encouraging you to turn your back on the council etc as useless and stupid.

So long as Shepard could regularly engage in serious conversation about Cerberus that wasn't just 'Don't you think they're a bit sinister?' and allowing them to defend it with no retort, I'd have been happy.  

The existing resistance to Cerberus is tepid at best - nothing like the full throated denouncing (and cut transmissioning) you can do to the Council. And again, Cerberus the only ones who can help... Round and round and round. They are not the only option - they are the only presented option.

And my Paragon isn't a goody two shoes. She executes the worst kind of criminals on the spot (though she wouldn't take it so far as to want to exterminate those in the prison for example). She helps those who are in need of help, tells to move on if they are clearly just trying to trick her or use her for a easy score on whatever they want etc.

She is hardline on crime, hating slavers and murderers etc. But she believes in the importance of the Alliance, the Council and how she is perceived by the people (not for ego, but for how they might try and emulate her - Conrad taught her this).

Anyway, I bit and I shouldn't have. People seem to be thinking I'm hating on the game and I don't want the thread to become that, so I take my leave, later than scheduled.

Modifié par ModernDayMoriarty, 01 février 2010 - 09:14 .

[DirkD13]

I agree OP

[Thrakkesh]

You can express your disgust at Cerebrus all you want.



But the alternative is you walk away from the only organization willing to help you and give you the resources you need. NEED. to take down the Reapers. The Council will not listen to you, nor the Alliance. You have one ally--one. That's Cerebrus. Even if you steal the Normandy and somehow convince the entire crew to go with you, it'll be without any of Cerebrus intel through the events of the game--you'd be helpless.



The very act of insisting that you can't stomach having to make some morally gray choices to let a Galaxy of monstrous super-fiends eat the universe speaks volumes. (Oh, and the mass-murderer? you pulled her out of a prison that's a glorified extortion racket that would sell her to the highest bidder, and a powerful biotic would be in high demand. Better to use her against the Reapers then end up in some crime lords hands).

[Shady314]

ModernDayMoriarty wrote...
The point was the game presents little opportunity to express that disquiet.

But they are provided. Too much and my Paragon Shep would just become a whiney little ****. Let's please remember Paragon Shep was still a marine. He's got to know when to pick his battles and when to grit his teeth and push through until an opportunity comes along.

[Bann Duncan]

I get the impression that you've not gone very far in the game, nor have you spoken much to Miranda and Jacob. Jacob is pretty disgusted by most of Cerberus's past and pretty much joined because of the anti-Shepard direction that the Alliance was taking (ditto for the engineers.) Miranda comes over to the anti-Cerberus way of thinking through conversations with Shepard.

[AzrithEH]

If I can add my two cents here, I think alot of people are missing the point on the whole Paragon / Renegade thing.  I don't know why so many people think that being a "Paragon" means you have to be some kind of goody two shoes alter boy, the definition of Paragon is simply: " a model or pattern of excellence or of a particular excellence. (from dictionary.com)".  A pattern of excellence... since when was excellence a measure of morality?

I can understand if you want to play as some kind of morally righteous space paladin (especially since paladin type is usually my favorite play class aswell) but in noway should you derive from the word that you HAVE to be a squeaky clean boy scout.

To be honest, I played ME1 so long ago that I didn't even remember who Cerebrus was when I played ME2.  What I can say is I'm overjoyed that Bioware did such a good job fixing all of the gameplay mechanic issues that plagued the initial title in this epic space journey.  I'm waiting for ME3 with baited breath, I may go back and give ME1 another run so I can get the whole picture all togeather, but as far as entertainment goes, I'd say ME2 definately offered me fantastic bang for my buck.

Anyway I think thats all I have to add of substance to this conversation, hopefully its not too wordy, happy hunting fellow Shepards!

[TuringPoint]

You aren't serving them. Absolutely not. I am absolutely not serving Cerberus in any fashion when I am playing my Paragon Shepard.



I didn't think you were saying Shepard was forced to commit evil acts, I was using that to support my position. I'm saying, the important thing is whether you are forced to do anything with evil results, if you can't take your situation and improve it somehow.



Opening the cages was pretty bad, yeah. But that wasn't something Cerberus told you to do.



If the prisoners attack to kill the guards, that's the momentum the guards themselves set in motion, etc.



But you aren't killing anyone who isn't attacking you, in the aftermath. Isn't defending yourself evil, then? Shouldn't you wait until you're dead? Huh.



I guess we're supposed to think getting Jack was absolutely necessary for surviving the mission. You certainly need everyone you can get. Still, the greater evil is on the part of the warden who decided to try and subdue you out of greed. The prison itself was a paradoxical evil, extorting large sums of money from governments, beating them for selfish reasons that have nothing to do with being a proper correctional facility, etc. If those criminals decide to risk their lives for revenge or just being psychopaths, that's up to them. If a prison warden wants to mess with a Spectre, he has to pay the consequences.



If releasing bad criminals is evil, if allowing them to get themselves killed is evil, consider what allowing them to live in a prison like that and not even have a hope of escape? Just interminable suffering and hell? What is a greater evil, really?



And then you get someone to work for you on your team, saving the galaxy. Those things balance out, in a way.



You may have a point about "expressing disquiet," but words aren't as important as actions.



Anyway, I don't want to step into being disrespectful, and I hope my arguments aren't. I'm just being fairly blunt.

[Arijharn]

The thing is, those prisoners were undoubtedly very bad people (since Purgatory is like a super maximum security prison), so it's not as if they were innocent. I had more compunctions about setting them against some of the mercenaries to be honest, because they couldn't all be of similiar mind as the Warden (but I was reading too much into the situation).



At the end of the day though, there were bigger fish to fry (the Reapers) and I needed to be able to get to Jack. I wouldn't of shot anyone who didn't shoot me, but everyone did, so I emerged the victor.



I really did play as a full paragon, despite what I say here lol. These are more my long term ideals whereas I guess my paragon choices were for the immediate situations (like, helping Nef's mother, warning Ish not to be an idiot etc, etc)

[ModernDayMoriarty]

Just a quick message to say, I understand what you're saying that Cerberus don't force you to do evil. But the game forces you to open those cages, on a mission from them that my character would never have accepted. And my character doesn't see them rotting in jail as evil - but she would have looked into getting them out of the hands of slavers (which the mercs were, basically).

My final point (I think I'm on my 3rd farewell now ) was that I can only tell you what I felt as I was playing. And likewise, you cannot tell me, no matter how much you believe in what you say, that I did not feel this way.

That's not a criticism - it's just a fact.

I felt utterly sick to my stomach to be helping Cerberus. I felt weighed down and angry that I wasn't been given the chance to denounce the sadistic bastards for all they'd done. I was greatly troubled by the thought of Kelly Chambers being part of this group, not knowing what they were like and not being able to tell her.

Because let's face it, she's got her head in the clouds and from what she says, she really doesn't know about the things they've done. She hasn't seen that side of them yet.

And that frustration at simply not being able to at least try, to articulate my outrage at their actions, beyond vague 'They're a dark group, but I have to go along with them for now' generalisations was killing me. Especially when characters like Ashley got to say all those things I wasn't allowed to.

It was just so fundamentally opposed to what my character believed. And again, I can get on board with doing it for the greater good, but I would have needed to have fully exhausted my options before I'd ever consider working with them.

I felt like I had innocent blood on my hands basically. It's not a good feeling, trust me on this... It's important to distinguish the good emotional connections (even when they are troubling and you're wondering it you're doing the right thing etc). That sort of thing is great stuff.

But this was frustration born of not being able to express my character's opinions. And they are hardly difficult views to anticipate and cater for, are they? That a principled character absolutely would not be comfortable with even the suggestion that she was working for such a group.

And the side missions where you have to aid Cerberus just capped it off. Because you can use your imagination at leas in the main game and say you're not really Cerberus even when the game stifles you.

But the side missions see you doing their bidding, handing over Prothean data, weapons shipments, weather control devices etc.

There's only 1 mission where you can rebel and aid the Alliance. One fiddling mission.

Anyway... that's about it.

I've enjoyed this discussion, but it's time to move on.

[Wintermist]

The difference between Paragon and Renegade is not that they have different goals, but how they choose to achieve the goals they share.

[Shady314]

ModernDayMoriarty wrote...

Just a quick message to say, I understand what you're saying that Cerberus don't force you to do evil. But the game forces you to open those cages, on a mission from them that my character would never have accepted. And my character doesn't see them rotting in jail as evil - but she would have looked into getting them out of the hands of slavers (which the mercs were, basically).

You would never have accepted that mission?
When it begins you're just going to a prison ship to pick up a prisoner Cerberus has already bought and paid for. If your serious your Shepard is completely insane and I've never felt any game maker whether it be a developer like Bioware or your friend who GMs occasionally should feel compelled to put up with insane character demands and actions.

[Wintermist]

If I had the choice, I would go back to my old military friends and recruit from them much rather than select psychopaths and other people I really don't feel I can trust. Shepard isn't exactly incognito like they first let us believe we had to be. He goes shopping in the Citadel like average Joe. Nothing is stopping him except the writer from doing what he should be doing.

EDIT: Having said that though, I do still enjoy the game, I'm merely pointing out what I personally consider to be a very big flaw. But I work around it, I play as if my Shepard chose to do things the way he does.

Modifié par Wintermist, 01 février 2010 - 10:02 .

[ModernDayMoriarty]

Oh come on, you knew I had to reply to that one!

She's a deranged killer - she wouldn't be there otherwise. How is it insane for a character of good principles to not want to let such a person out of jail, much less recruit her - especially when they have to release all the other crazies to do so? Or do you think that my character should have assumed that they just locked her up for nothing?

The warden (and one of the other inmates) tells you how crazy and dangerous Jack is. That confirmed my suspicion that this was a sensentionally bad idea. I didn't want as the last poster so rightly put it, to recruit psychos and mentally unstable criminals.

[Arijharn]

ModernDayMoriarty wrote...

Oh come on, you knew I had to reply to that one!

She's a deranged killer - she wouldn't be there otherwise. How is it insane for a character of good principles to not want to let such a person out of jail, much less recruit her - especially when they have to release all the other crazies to do so? Or do you think that my character should have assumed that they just locked her up for nothing?

The warden (and one of the other inmates) tells you how crazy and dangerous Jack is. That confirmed my suspicion that this was a sensentionally bad idea. I didn't want as the last poster so rightly put it, to recruit psychos and mentally unstable criminals.

Because the stacks aren't just high, they're astronomical? If you aren't given a highly trained army to do the impossible, wouldn't you want at least the most suitable to do the impossible? Basically, if you wanted to do your preferred paragon choice, you wouldn't survive and most likely, damn the rest of the galaxy. In my mind, that's a far more Renegade option than anything in the game.

[KainrycKarr]

ModernDayMoriarty wrote...

Oh come on, you knew I had to reply to that one!

She's a deranged killer - she wouldn't be there otherwise. How is it insane for a character of good principles to not want to let such a person out of jail, much less recruit her - especially when they have to release all the other crazies to do so? Or do you think that my character should have assumed that they just locked her up for nothing?

The warden (and one of the other inmates) tells you how crazy and dangerous Jack is. That confirmed my suspicion that this was a sensentionally bad idea. I didn't want as the last poster so rightly put it, to recruit psychos and mentally unstable criminals.

You aren't taking her to meet your parents, you're taking her to a suicide mission. It's not like Shep just let her out and said "okay, see you later, be good!"

[Wintermist]

That's bull, because who do you really think would be better, a trained military or some rogue thug? The missions you do require the bottom layer of society because what? I need to hear this myself.

[aimlessgun]

Yes you're on rails the whole game. But being angry about it seems more of an expectations problem. Being on the rails = welcome to games in general.

[LucidStrike]

No one hates nationalism more tan me, and I was certainly outraged about the udea, but it wasn't completely game breaking. I agree that we weren't really given the options to express our hatred for Cerberus. All we could do was make the kind of snide comments you might mke to a run of the mill *sshole, but Cerberus is a nationalist militant group.

That said, I screwed them over at the end a bit. I think we'll get to destroy them in ME3.

Modifié par LucidStrike, 01 février 2010 - 10:29 .

[KainrycKarr]

Wintermist wrote...

That's bull, because who do you really think would be better, a trained military or some rogue thug? The missions you do require the bottom layer of society because what? I need to hear this myself.

Because the alliance isn't doing jack diddly squat about it, despite you being back, telling them about it, and having an operative of theirs(Kaidan/Ashley) be a firsthand witness to it?

[Shady314]

ModernDayMoriarty wrote...

Oh come on, you knew I had to reply to that one!

She's a deranged killer - she wouldn't be there otherwise. How is it insane for a character of good principles to not want to let such a person out of jail, much less recruit her - especially when they have to release all the other crazies to do so? Or do you think that my character should have assumed that they just locked her up for nothing?

The warden (and one of the other inmates) tells you how crazy and dangerous Jack is. That confirmed my suspicion that this was a sensentionally bad idea. I didn't want as the last poster so rightly put it, to recruit psychos and mentally unstable criminals.

1) Is that what her dossier says. I remember being told she was possibly the most powerful human biotic in the galaxy. It might say she is possibly unstable. But so is GARRUS really. So is Thane. Pretty much everyone on the mission is at least a little ****ed up. Which leads to point two.
2) Ever seen movies like the Dirty Dozen? Who do you think get's recruited to go on suicide missions? People with nothing left to live for. Like criminals. Insane people that make bad decisions that could get them killed. Really you want to try and convince some stable, family man alliance soldier to go on a SUICIDE mission.
3) A Paragon should bring bad people on a mission that will most likely see them killed. At least give them a chance to do some good before they die. Like Thane. Whether you like it or not Cerberus has ALREADY bought her freedom. If you refused to go pick her up they'd probably just send somebody else. Refusing to go do something so inane and simple is utterly stupid. It's akin to a temper tantrum. Have your Paragon act like a ****ing marine turned Spectre turned Savior of the galaxy and not a spoiled brat.
4) You don't know at the time but no one hates Cerberus more than Jack. She is your best ally in that regards.

EDIT: Garrus is a great example. Everyone tells you how insane and dangerous Archangel is. He's murdered a lot of people. But oh your Paragon can feel all warm and fuzzy inside because he murders mercs in coldblood instead of whoever it is Jack may have killed. From talking to her it sounds like she's killed mostly mercs and fellow criminals just like Garrus.

Modifié par Shady314, 01 février 2010 - 10:35 .