265 réponses à ce sujet

[Terraneaux]

ModernDayMoriarty wrote...

What about Akuze? What about Toombs? What about Kahoku? Why doesn't Shepard ask EDI to get Kahoku's wife and children on the line, so Miranda can explain how great Cerberus are to them?

Apparently Mac Walters had a serious hard-on for Cerebus.  These things aren't mentioned because it's pretty much impossible to rationalize them.  

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

You could not complete the mission without adding people to the crew that you (or myself) would have added willingly. Did you even play the game? Or did the miss the part about the Council and the Alliance not giving a ****? Being stuck between a rock and a hardplace requires tough decisions...like having to use mercenaries and crazies to save the Galaxy.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 02 février 2010 - 04:06 .

[Terraneaux]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

You could not complete the mission without adding people to the crew that you (or myself) would have added willingly. Did you even play the game? Or did the miss the part about the Council and the Alliance not giving a ****?

Again, it is unrealistic that the Council and the Alliance don't give a ****, and unrealistic that you're given no opportunity to change their viewpoint.  It's *bad writing*.  It was written to give players as little choice possible, both in the actions and viewpoints of their character, apparently because someone thought it would be 'cool' and 'edgy' and 'dark' (because the sequel has to be dark, right?) to force a 'deal with the devil' kind of situation.  And then it's handled in such a clumsy fashion that you're left wondering why anyone in the story is acting the way they do.  

[Sa3vis]

Wow um I think the big problem some people are having is seeing that this game focuses more on the shades of gray rather then having all your choices being black and white like most were in the first game. Sure some of your actions will not be the choices you'd prefer but if your really that good you'd be looking at the bigger picture. Hell I could argue that they don't let me become renegade enough because I can't leave Cerberus and become a pirate. Also questioning the beginning is stupid. I wondered why they didn't do game transfers when I first saw it on sports games for the ps2 and they needed a way to have you create a new character. *Spoiler* The next one might make you keep Shepard the same if he survives or create a new person/alien if he doesn't but that will be easier to do because in ME2 you can die or survive. But someone will probably complain then too so whatever.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Terraneaux wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

You could not complete the mission without adding people to the crew that you (or myself) would have added willingly. Did you even play the game? Or did the miss the part about the Council and the Alliance not giving a ****?

Again, it is unrealistic that the Council and the Alliance don't give a ****, and unrealistic that you're given no opportunity to change their viewpoint.  It's *bad writing*.  It was written to give players as little choice possible, both in the actions and viewpoints of their character, apparently because someone thought it would be 'cool' and 'edgy' and 'dark' (because the sequel has to be dark, right?) to force a 'deal with the devil' kind of situation.  And then it's handled in such a clumsy fashion that you're left wondering why anyone in the story is acting the way they do.  

Unrealistic? Oh please. This was already covered by gethsemani87. And I quote:

gethsemani87 wrote...

I personally feel that the
justification for working with Cerberus provided in ME2 is satisfactory
enough, even for a Paragon Shepard. Let's face it, who else is going to
help you? Your mission can be summed up in the following statement:

"Hey,
I am going through a Mass Relay that leads to an unknown place from
which no ship has ever returned, despite hundreds of ships having used
it over the years. I am doing this because I am fighting a race that is
abducting human colonists and I believe that these abductions have
something to do with the Reapers. You know, the boogeymen who's plan I
claim to have thwarted two years. Nevermind that you have found no
evidence that Sovereign was actually not just a fancy Geth-ship, or that
you have no jurisdiction or care for the Terminus systems where this is
happening. Also, please forget that I was supposedly killed two
years ago and make my reappearance now, in a ship registered to a
pro-human organization widely considered to be terrorists. Also, I would
like for you to re-instate me as a SPECTRE/Marine Commander, hand me an
expensive military ship and some of the best soldiers and provide me
with unlimited funding for this mission. Oh yeah, I know all indications
point to this being a suicide mission, but come on? I took down Saren
and stopped the Reapers (who you don't believe in anyway, I know),
remember?"

Would you listen to Shepard if s/he came to you
and asked this? As it is Cerberus at least acknowledges that you are
right and are ready to trust in your intuition to save humanity. Not
only that, they trust you so implicitly that they give you free reign to
do whatever you like and whatever it takes to complete this mission.
Even if it means they lose a gigantic fortune in the process (4 Billions
for Project Lazarus and God knows how much for the SR-2).

Shepard
is back from the dead and all out of options in a galaxy that at best
thought s/he was slightly unstable at best and dangerously psychotic at
worst. But you'd rather turn down the offer of near unlimited help
and free reign because the organization offering it to you has a bad
rep?

Sorry, not unrealistic. You just don't like having to work with the bad guys. I don't either, however that doesn't mean Shepard can't use them to do good.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 02 février 2010 - 04:25 .

[Terraneaux]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Sorry, not unrealistic. You just don't like having to work with the bad guys. I don't either, however that doesn't mean Shepard can't use them to do good.

gethsemani87's post is an extremely one-sided argument, considering it's presented to give the maximum credibility to the story as it is presented.  I'm sure you're smart enough to realize you're being intellectually dishonest, but I'm trying to make my opinion known.  After ME1 my purchase of ME2 was a slam dunk.  After ME2, my purchase of ME3 may not happen, particularly if they have the same head writer as ME2.  

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Terraneaux wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Sorry, not unrealistic. You just don't like having to work with the bad guys. I don't either, however that doesn't mean Shepard can't use them to do good.

gethsemani87's post is an extremely one-sided argument, considering it's presented to give the maximum credibility to the story as it is presented.  I'm sure you're smart enough to realize you're being intellectually dishonest, but I'm trying to make my opinion known.  After ME1 my purchase of ME2 was a slam dunk.  After ME2, my purchase of ME3 may not happen, particularly if they have the same head writer as ME2.  

Considering it's given maximum credibility to the story as is presented? Interesting argument you are proposing, given that his entire post is merely a statement of facts surrounding the events of ME 2. You try to diminish the argument with a broad generalization, yet I'm being intellectually dishonest? Get real.

[Garuda One]

[Colebloodedkill]

I hate Cerebus but in this situation i would join them because the council has and never will help you out. also i really enjoyed this article man good job

[Terraneaux]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...


Considering it's given maximum credibility to the story as is presented? Interesting argument you are proposing, given that his entire post is merely a statement of facts surrounding the events of ME 2. You try to diminish the argument with a broad generalization, yet I'm being intellectually dishonest? Get real.

To be more specific, the idea that Sovereign was just some 'fancy geth ship' is ridiculous.  They recovered at least a third of that thing, enough to know that it was NOT A DAMN GETH SHIP IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FASHION, and moreover its ability to control the Citadel speaks to a connection that you explain because its race created the station.  Your appearance on the Citadel at the 11th hour proves that you were right about the Conduit, that Saren was a traitor, and the wreckage proves that Sovereign was a Reaper.  Your visions can be independently verified by any Asari who wants to 'mind meld' with you.  The idea that the council doesn't believe you this time around is just... stupid.  You're batting 1000 in the 'predictions of galactic doom' department, you saved their asses or put them in power, and they won't even have an *audience* with you?  They're acting out of character.  They're just being written poorly.  The writing team thought it was more important to have you working for Cerebus than to have verisimilitude in a story (or they jut failed at it).  

They've already proved that they like having Spectres around to deal with problems in places like the traverse, so giving you some information, requisitioning a ship from the Alliance or Turians, and sending you off would totally make sense.  

Yes, you're brought back to life in shady circumstances, but it's not out of the question to have an Asari read your mind to verify your statements, or just trust you because you're Shepard, or for you to muster out of Cerebus and rejoin up with the council as soon as you have a chance. 

[DutRankEC]

I stop reading after you said that you were mad because you had to work for Cerberus.

It's like they used to say to the people who complained about Gears 2 Multiplayer.

ADAPT.

[Bigeyez]

I assume you haven't beaten the game right? Because Paragon Sheps give Cerberus and TIM the ultimate middle finger at the end of the game. That pretty much justifies the whole having to work with them bit.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Terraneaux wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...


Considering it's given maximum credibility to the story as is presented? Interesting argument you are proposing, given that his entire post is merely a statement of facts surrounding the events of ME 2. You try to diminish the argument with a broad generalization, yet I'm being intellectually dishonest? Get real.

To be more specific, the idea that Sovereign was just some 'fancy geth ship' is ridiculous.  They recovered at least a third of that thing, enough to know that it was NOT A DAMN GETH SHIP IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FASHION, and moreover its ability to control the Citadel speaks to a connection that you explain because its race created the station. 

In ME 2 it is mentioned that hardly anything was left of the thing, given the amount of firepower used against it and the sheer amount of illegal salvage while the Citadel was still reeling. If you've got in-game dialogue that states otherwise, please point me to it.

Your appearance on the Citadel at the 11th hour proves that you were
right about the Conduit, that Saren was a traitor, and the wreckage
proves that Sovereign was a Reaper.

Most if it was not recovered. So you've got two so far: the Conduit worked and instantly zapped you back from Illos, and Saren was a bad guy. That does not show a Reaper connection.

Your visions can be independently
verified by any Asari who wants to 'mind meld' with you.

Eye witness testimony is not solid evidence. It is circumstantial.

The idea that
the council doesn't believe you this time around is just... stupid.
 You're batting 1000 in the 'predictions of galactic doom' department,
you saved their asses or put them in power, and they won't even have an
*audience* with you?

There is no primary evidence that Sovereign is a "Reaper" and there is a super alien navy that is going to wipe out everybody. It's not a matter of Shepard batting 1.000 but rather reaching the proper conclusion. Eye witness testimony is simply not enough.

They're acting out of character.  They're just
being written poorly.  The writing team thought it was more important to
have you working for Cerebus than to have verisimilitude in a story (or
they jut failed at it).

 




They are going with the best information that they have, which is quite lacking. They were not there on Virmire when Shepard spoke with Sovereign, and there is no evidence to support that it was anything but a fancy Geth ship. Trust me, I hate the council too! But remember, just like Shepard says in ME 1: "What am I going to tell them? That I had a bad dream?"

They've already proved that they like
having Spectres around to deal with problems in places like the
traverse, so giving you some information, requisitioning a ship from the
Alliance or Turians, and sending you off would totally make sense.

Yes,
you're brought back to life in shady circumstances, but it's not out of
the question to have an Asari read your mind to verify your statements,
or just trust you because you're Shepard, or for you to muster out of
Cerebus and rejoin up with the council as soon as you have a chance.

 

Again, consider the guy's post I quoted. It would be foolish from the Council's perspective to dump a bunch of resources into a Spectre who they consider to be an okay guy, but obsessed with "Reapers" that they have no evidence of. And in the vein of Beetlejuice "not to mention the fact that you're talking to a dead guy, now what do you think?" Given the time constraints in ME 2, there is simply not time to do it by the book.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 02 février 2010 - 05:16 .

[Terraneaux]

Bigeyez wrote...

I assume you haven't beaten the game right? Because Paragon Sheps give Cerberus and TIM the ultimate middle finger at the end of the game. That pretty much justifies the whole having to work with them bit.

Blowing up the base at the end of the game is nice.  But, you know, I'd like for my PC to be able to *not* stab all his friends in the back for the sake of some organization which he should hate anyway.  It's not so much that it's a morally dubious organization, I'm fine with that, it's that there was literally no way to come out of the first game with a shred of appreciation for Cerebus, even discounting a hardcore paragon or Sole Survivor character, and at the same time you're expected to treat them as the last great hope for the galaxy, despite the fact that there are plenty of other options that should be available based off of the events of the first game, but they're artificially curtailed to make room for this 'plot.'

[Terraneaux]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...


In ME 2 it is mentioned that hardly anything was left of the thing, given the amount of firepower used against it and the sheer amount of illegal salvage while the Citadel was still reeling. If you've got in-game dialogue that states otherwise, please point me to it.

The words were 'we can barely account for half of that thing,' at least when Anderson talks to you (I haven't seen the scene with Udina).  Even the arm that crashed into the citadel at the end of ME1 should be enough, considering it shoots those death lasers that tore ships to shreds during the final battle.  Don't forget, the Council (for some reason) covers their ears and shouts 'I CAN'T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOU' whenever they talk about Reapers (Benezia's mention of it early in ME1, etc).  It's not a logical pattern of behavior at all, they seem dead set on disbelieving anything Shepard says.  

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Terraneaux wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...


In ME 2 it is mentioned that hardly anything was left of the thing, given the amount of firepower used against it and the sheer amount of illegal salvage while the Citadel was still reeling. If you've got in-game dialogue that states otherwise, please point me to it.

The words were 'we can barely account for half of that thing,' at least when Anderson talks to you (I haven't seen the scene with Udina).  Even the arm that crashed into the citadel at the end of ME1 should be enough, considering it shoots those death lasers that tore ships to shreds during the final battle.  Don't forget, the Council (for some reason) covers their ears and shouts 'I CAN'T HEAR YOU I CAN'T HEAR YOU' whenever they talk about Reapers (Benezia's mention of it early in ME1, etc).  It's not a logical pattern of behavior at all, they seem dead set on disbelieving anything Shepard says.  

Big things with death lasers =/= Reapers. That's all that there is to it.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 02 février 2010 - 05:17 .

[Drakslayer1229]

I gave Miranda the good ole Shephard Shenanigans in bed and now she is with me. Jacob is my bro in da hood so we cool. Ilussive man will get his due in ME3.

[Terraneaux]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Big things with death lasers =/= Reapers. That's all that there is to it.

You're really stretching it here.  I can honestly say that after the events of ME1, I can't think of anyone who would doubt Shepard on this.  I really wanted ME2 to be more amazing than it was too, but you're bending over backwards to justify some perceived merit to the story that just isn't there.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Terraneaux wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Big things with death lasers =/= Reapers. That's all that there is to it.

You're really stretching it here.  I can honestly say that after the events of ME1, I can't think of anyone who would doubt Shepard on this.  I really wanted ME2 to be more amazing than it was too, but you're bending over backwards to justify some perceived merit to the story that just isn't there.

I'm bending over backwards? You have presented no evidence that Sovereign is a reaper besides it having a really, really big gun. If I'm backwards you're pitching from the stretch and down by three.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 02 février 2010 - 05:25 .

[Hellish Wolf]

Never once in this game does it make Cerberus look good. It is painfully obvious the entire time that TIM is deceiving you and your crew. He holds back important information from you that directly threatens you and your crew and you lose your crew because of it.



Thats another thing as well. I was not working with a Cerberus crew. They were MY crew on MY ship. It may have had Cerberus logos, but that was it. I felt angered when my crew was taken by the collectors and I ended up turning everyone against Cerberus anyways. Miranda being loyal and my LI basically told TIM to **** off at the end.

[Terraneaux]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

I'm bending over backwards? You have presented no evidence that Sovereign is a reaper besides it having a really, really big gun? If I'm backwards you're pitching from the stretch.

Its interaction with the citadel at the end of ME1 and an analysis of its 'corpse' should be enough.  It's obviously not a Geth ship, its technology is way more advanced than anything else we've seen, and it's able to control the citadel through an interface that appears to be custom-made for it.  Saren obviously engineered its entrance into the citadel, and it identified itself as a Reaper.  

Frankly, the idea that the council wouldn't take Shepard's word on this one is just wrong.  I mean, his team backs this up, but I guess they could be in on it.  The comm log taken from the Geth talks about the 'return of the reapers' but that could be faked, you know, to misdirect the Council.  Of course that makes sense.

[Terraneaux]

Hellish Wolf wrote...

Never once in this game does it make Cerberus look good. It is painfully obvious the entire time that TIM is deceiving you and your crew. He holds back important information from you that directly threatens you and your crew and you lose your crew because of it.

Thats another thing as well. I was not working with a Cerberus crew. They were MY crew on MY ship. It may have had Cerberus logos, but that was it. I felt angered when my crew was taken by the collectors and I ended up turning everyone against Cerberus anyways. Miranda being loyal and my LI basically told TIM to **** off at the end.

In regards to your first point, that, combined with what we know about Cerebus from the first game, is exactly why the story stinks.  The council are made to be idiots precisely so that this situation of working for someone you don't like is engineered - but clumsy storytelling like that is painfully obvious, and it ruins the enjoyment of the game for someone like me.  

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Terraneaux wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

I'm bending over backwards? You have presented no evidence that Sovereign is a reaper besides it having a really, really big gun? If I'm backwards you're pitching from the stretch.

Its interaction with the citadel at the end of ME1 and an analysis of its 'corpse' should be enough.  It's obviously not a Geth ship, its technology is way more advanced than anything else we've seen, and it's able to control the citadel through an interface that appears to be custom-made for it.  Saren obviously engineered its entrance into the citadel, and it identified itself as a Reaper.

First off, there is no telling what it is doing with its "interaction" with the Citadel from outside of Shepard's viewpoint. Secondly, there is no corpse to analyze. It was blown to bits and then illegaly salvaged, remember?. Advanced technology does not make it a Reaper. Given that Saren was working with the Geth, why can't it be a gigantic warship that they put a lot of resources into it? It's not as if the Citadel or Alliance had ANY solid information about Geth technology.

Frankly, the idea that the council wouldn't take Shepard's word
on this one is just wrong.  I mean, his team backs this up, but I guess
they could be in on it.  The comm log taken from the Geth talks about
the 'return of the reapers' but that could be faked, you know, to
misdirect the Council.  Of course that makes sense.

A recovered communication log with the Geth talking about Reapers without Shepard's context is meaningless. Exchange Reaper with the word Blork; it makes no difference.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 02 février 2010 - 05:41 .

[J e s s e]

My paragon worked with Cerberus because they were, simply put, her best chance at stopping the new threat of the Collectors and the continued threat of the Reapers. She went to the Citadel and spoke with the council and Anderson, both of whom made it quite clear they weren't in any position to help her with anything, even if they wanted to.



She thought they were all being massively stupid for *STILL* refusing to believe the Reaper threat even after Sovereign parked himself right on top of their roof in a very public showing. However, given her past dealings with them in the first game (specifically how they handled the whole Saren crisis) it was already quite obvious that trying to talk to them and change their minds was a pointless endeavour. They will not act without solid irrefutable proof, proof which admittedly Shepard didn't have (at least not that she could show them. All of the things she and her crew learned were things you pretty much had to be present for).



So, yeah, she decided to work *with* Cerberus, (not for, with) because they were providing her with the means to do the job. Did she ever trust them or TIM? Hell no, she saw what kind of experiments they did back in ME 1, and even if Miranda claimed that those experiments were done by other cells of Cerberus she didn't accept that as an excuse. But, again, Cerberus were the ones offering their help. Just like TIM said about Jacob always being honest about distrusting him, through the dialogue options my Shepard was always quite honest about her dislike and distrust of them as well.



Then, at the end, she made her feelings quite clear on the matter when she told TIM where he could shove it when she decided to blow up the Collector base. Like she told Kaidan on Horizon, she did not join Cerberus, she merely accepted their aid.

[Terraneaux]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

First off, there is no telling what it is doing with its "interaction" with the Citadel from outside of Shepard's viewpoint. Secondly, there is no corpse to analyze. It was blown to bits and then illegaly salvaged, remember?. Advanced technology does not make it a Reaper.

A recovered communication log with the Geth talking about Reapers without Shepard's context is meaningless. Exchange Reaper with the word Blork; it makes no difference.

Again, possibly as much as half of Sovereign's corpse is in the hand of the Council, we could be conservative and say a third.  That's more than enough to be able to tell the things you'd need to know about it to deduce what you'd need to know to correlate it with Shepard's descriptions of Reapers.  After almost having their government destroyed, the Council should be *eager* to find what information they can about who did it and why, but instead they insist on putting their heads in the sand.  That's bad characterization right there.