283 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr3xx]

In the other game I play, rogues use daggers. If Bioware doesn't make this true in this game, then they have failed me.







?

[Bluemax151]

Trust Chris he knows what he's doing? I call hax

[rikkles]

I used to play longsword + dagger and switched to dual daggers. Faster and better armor penetration. I like that much better.

[ninfan1]

the rune damage really starts to add up with double dagger, too.

[shoushiyanagi]

so let me get this straight.



Bioware made an error, but no one's problem is with the bug. their grief is that Bioware essentially said "ya know what, i kinda like it the way it is, let's roll with this."



get off your damn high horses.

the prototype rogue isn't a mandate. you still need dex to play a good rogue, it's just not as important as it was before. enjoy the two swords/axes/maces/whichever combo you like.



Bioware NEVER said "ours mages, rogues, and warriors will correspond exactly to the archetype D&D laid forward" they intended to do that and because of a bug they overlooked they have gone a different route. Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome, Hoorah

[Bluto Blutarskyx]

it makes sense though-



even though this is a fantasy game, if a rouge showed up to battle some dude with a two handed longsword (no armor either way), and used the hand held daggrers- he would be at a SUPREME disadvantage to the point that he might as well almost not even be armed.



then again- the "traditional" reliance on stregth as a power building stat over something like "cutting technique" to generate power and damage is pretty foolish as well.



oh well. what are you going to do?

[ShiroRX]

Bluto Blutarskyx wrote...

it makes sense though-

even though this is a fantasy game, if a rouge showed up to battle some dude with a two handed longsword (no armor either way), and used the hand held daggrers- he would be at a SUPREME disadvantage to the point that he might as well almost not even be armed.

then again- the "traditional" reliance on stregth as a power building stat over something like "cutting technique" to generate power and damage is pretty foolish as well.

oh well. what are you going to do?

You're using inane bull**** to argue against a valid point.

The game itself says dex is 50% of the +dmg for daggers. It's obviously a bug on the part of the devs if this isn't working correctly. Besides, the very existence of Lethality and Exploit Weakness as talents disproves the argument that rogues should be weilding longswords by game's end.

18 strength is all I ever need. Period.

even though this is a fantasy game, if a rouge showed up to battle some
dude with a two handed longsword (no armor either way), and used the
hand held daggrers- he would be at a SUPREME disadvantage to the point
that he might as well almost not even be armed.

Hah. Ever heard of agility? A person holding a large broadsword would be significantly slower than a person with a dagger. Strength and power usually come at the cost of speed and defense when commenting on melee combat. Especially since my rogue can just kick him in the balls and get behind him to stick a dagger in his butt.

Modifié par ShiroRX, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:35 .

[SoulBlazer]

shoushiyanagi wrote...

so let me get this straight.

Bioware made an error, but no one's problem is with the bug. their grief is that Bioware essentially said "ya know what, i kinda like it the way it is, let's roll with this."

get off your damn high horses.
the prototype rogue isn't a mandate. you still need dex to play a good rogue, it's just not as important as it was before. enjoy the two swords/axes/maces/whichever combo you like.

Bioware NEVER said "ours mages, rogues, and warriors will correspond exactly to the archetype D&D laid forward" they intended to do that and because of a bug they overlooked they have gone a different route. Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome, Hoorah

Finally, somebody gets it.

[ShiroRX]

SoulBlazer wrote...

shoushiyanagi wrote...

so let me get this straight.

Bioware made an error, but no one's problem is with the bug. their grief is that Bioware essentially said "ya know what, i kinda like it the way it is, let's roll with this."

get off your damn high horses.
the prototype rogue isn't a mandate. you still need dex to play a good rogue, it's just not as important as it was before. enjoy the two swords/axes/maces/whichever combo you like.

Bioware NEVER said "ours mages, rogues, and warriors will correspond exactly to the archetype D&D laid forward" they intended to do that and because of a bug they overlooked they have gone a different route. Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome, Hoorah

Finally, somebody gets it.

no. Because if that was the case the game itself wouldn't make such a big deal about Cunning when dealing with rogues and their talents. Besides, it SAYS IT IN GAME that dex and strength both affect daggers, UNTIL you get Lethality. Why even argue about this? Its obvious what the devs want, they explicitly state it in-game.

Is Ouimet even a dev?

Modifié par ShiroRX, 20 novembre 2009 - 08:40 .

[MartinJHolm]

SoulBlazer wrote...
Finally, somebody gets it.

Actually not - DA:O is an EXACT continuation of what previous games like NWN and there is hardly any difference in  mechanics besides introducing stamina/mana.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

The bug is pretty easy to ignore/fix. Drag and drop a mod file into a folder and voila, or just train your strength alongside dex/cunning.

[Vaeo]

This topic seems rather over-worried. I heard a lot of dex rogues on this forum are kicking arse. Probably using lethality too. But yarr. . . They dodge like maniacs, and seem to be whipping some serious mobness. I don't feel like digging up the old threads, though.

[pokemaughan]

Download the dagger fix, folks.

[MagnusReloaded]

Frankly I think the only real problem is that they need to fix the in game text to match what the statistical reality is and problem solved.



Rogues have far more utility outside of dps compared to a warrior. They get more skill points nd have unique talents that allow them to support the party in ways a warrior cant. If dex pumped dagger damage then dex would be an all in one stat for rogues. damage, attack rating and defense and ability to advance in their dual wielding talents out of one stat?



Then a humn rogue could ignore str altogether and have enough dex for dual weapon mastery by level 7. From a flanking position he would be embarrasing even the best warrior dps builds, while also being able to do things like lockpicking and all the other things a rogue can do with his extra skill points. That would be pretty imba and no fun imo.



In any case, there is another advantage to the rogue for this. If 1 point of strength allows you to gain 1 point of damage where you all though dex and str each gave .5, then that means you now only have to spend one attribute point to get the damage boost it took 2 attribute points to get before.



Think about it.....

[BetrayTheWorld]

MagnusReloaded wrote...
Rogues have far more utility outside of dps compared to a warrior. They get more skill points nd have unique talents that allow them to support the party in ways a warrior cant. If dex pumped dagger damage then dex would be an all in one stat for rogues. damage, attack rating and defense and ability to advance in their dual wielding talents out of one stat?

Ok, first off, warriors and mages already have the ability to do this. Warriors get tons of benefits from just pumping strength, and only peppering in a little Dex, Con, and Willpower.

Mages get the same from Magic. They can pump it, then only pepper in some willpower to be fabulous.

Your argument against rogues being able to do the same thing with Dex goes against the way all other classes are set up. They're SUPPOSED to have specific stats that they can pump to focus on specific builds. The dex/cunning build makes sense for Rogues because dex and cunning are required for their talents and abilities. So having a weapon option that capitalizes on that fits within the game. Making them focus on strength, when strength does not help them meet any of their class requirements is just stupid.

MagnusReloaded wrote...

In any case, there is another advantage to the rogue for this. If 1
point of strength allows you to gain 1 point of damage where you all
though dex and str each gave .5, then that means you now only have to
spend one attribute point to get the damage boost it took 2 attribute
points to get before.

Think about it.....

Yes, there is a mechanical advantage in that you get a full point of damage from putting points in strength. However, by putting points into strength, you're robbing yourself of multiple things:

1. Strength does not fulfill any rogue class requirements for abilities.
2. Rogues are supposed to be fast and hard to hit. Pumping points into strength does not make this so.

The original vision for the dual-wielding dagger rogue was that they'd be able to improve their chance to hit by improving dexterity just as much as a warrior would by pumping strength using a sword. Furthermore, it was determined that a rogue who focuses not on building huge muscles, but rather on making intelligent, precise strikes should gain damage while using piercing weapons from dexterity just as much as from strength. So they said dagger damage was going to scale with dexterity.

On this model, a rogue could complete the game having only spent points on two stats: Dexterity and Cunning. The same model as the other classes who can complete the game using only 2 stat improvements.

Warrior - Spends only points in strength and Dexterity = Ownage.
Mage - Spends only points in Magic and Willpower = Ownage.

Why should Rogues be so different?

Personally, I would like to see daggers do 100% damage based on dexterity, just like other weapons do for strength. People can say that this would make them imba all they want, but they still have a .85 attribute modifier instead of 1.0. They still wouldn't get as much damage per attribute point as a sword, but at least they'd still scale with the intended vision.

[MagnusReloaded]

Ok, first off, warriors and mages already have the ability to do this. Warriors get tons of benefits from just pumping strength, and only peppering in a little Dex, Con, and Willpower.



Mages get the same from Magic. They can pump it, then only pepper in some willpower to be fabulous.

I see your point here. Imo the difference is that while it's true that mages can pump magic to directly improve their ability at their role and a warrior can pump str for theirs, str and mag are simply not as otherwise useful stats as dex. This is particularly true in the case of magic. All it does is make your spells more powerful. Str is a bit more useful since it not only increases melee damage but also increases attack. But if dex improved dagger damage, then it would affect attack rating, defense, ranged weapon damage AND melee damage. I think that would be a bit broken and it doesn't encourage the rogue to put a few points into other attributes. At least, thats how I feel.

1. Strength does not fulfill any rogue class requirements for abilities.

2. Rogues are supposed to be fast and hard to hit. Pumping points into strength does not make this so.

Again, this could be a philosophical difference, but I think every character should have to make tough choices like this. I dont want to play a character where I only ever have to pump one stat for them to be good.



I play a caster in every rpg I play, and while I find magic fun and rewarding in this game, I think the stat setup is dissapointing for mages for exactly this reason. The magic stat exists only for mages and has no outside benefit (improved poultice usage, woohoo). Additionally, magic improves spell power, staff dmage and builds my ability to learn more advancedspells and equip better staves and robes. No other stat really matters and I think it's a bit lame. I think having dex add damage to daggers would essentially do the same to rogues.



As for warriors and str, yeah they benefit from it but you cant have a good warrior with just str. In fact the warrior requires the most attribute distrobution. Every stat but magic and cunning has a very real use for the warrior.



He needs strength for the obvious reasons, but he needs dex to hit consistently and for much needed defense for holding the front lines. He needs constitution for survivability on the front line. Will is important too. Since they wear the heaviest armors they have the highest fatigue and hence the highest stamina costs on their abilities. Low will+heavy/massive armor=very limited talent usage.



These factors necesitate that the warrior spread his stats around. It creates this rewarding dynamic of choosing between another point of strength to get more cool gear and talents available or putting attributes elsewhere to make yourself statistically better at your role. I like this dynamic. Under current rules, rogue's have this dynamic as well and I would like that to remain. Just a preference thing I guess.

[djo123]

dual dagger aren t that bad we still don t have the dex fix on the xbox 360 but i got lethality for talent and pump my cunning really high and start to quite ended up good for damage i think my highest so far damaged dealt is 109 so not too bad for somebody who used just little dagger.



and with the song of courage and tainted blood u could start doing serious damaged if u got the real dagger and proper rune

[Hulk Hsieh]

Dagger is far more powerful when it gets +1 from STR than +0.5 from STR/DEX.
You can have about 20 STR and 30 Dex and pump Cunning to something like 70+.
With the ability to replace STR with CUN in damage, the bard song that add damage from CUN, and the assassin ability to add damage from CUN, the Dagger/CUN Rogue is the ultimate backstabbing killer.

Only with current "error" can the CUN build be exploited like this.

I'm really surprised that even dev is thinking daggers are not cutting in when it is more uber than it should be.

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 23 novembre 2009 - 08:06 .

[mufuti7]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Dagger is far more powerful when it gets +1 from STR than +0.5 from STR/DEX.
You can have about 20 STR and 30 Dex and pump Cunning to something like 70+.
With the ability to replace STR with CUN in damage, the bard song that add damage from CUN, and the assassin ability to add damage from CUN, the Dagger/CUN Rogue is the ultimate backstabbing killer.

Only with current "error" can the CUN build be exploited like this.

I cannot even begin to understand the strange kind of logic you used for this.
With the bugged damage modifier you will only get 20 STR of damage worth.
With the fix you get 10 damage out of these 20 strength but at least 15 more damage out of Dexterity which equals a total of 25 as opposed to 20 if you are not using the fix.
I dont think raising Cunning at 70+ is useful, actually I would not go any higher than 40 at most.
You dont need more than 30 Cunning for talent checks and unlike Cunning, Dexterity also gives bonuses to Defense, Range damage and hit chance.
I would say 36 Dex is the minimum but before raising Cunning that high I would rather spend some points into Willpower.

However, whatever you do, not using the fix is not doing it the right way.

MagnusReloaded wrote...
But if dex improved dagger damage,
then it would affect attack rating, defense, ranged weapon damage AND
melee damage. I think that would be a bit broken and it doesn't
encourage the rogue to put a few points into other attributes. At
least, thats how I feel.

Well, dex DOES improve dagger damage plus all the other things you mentioned. (if you use the fix). The secondary stat for rogues is Cunning, pretty much the same way other classes work.
Strenght is just a dump stat so you can wear all the best light armor in the game (20 str).

Modifié par mufuti7, 23 novembre 2009 - 08:26 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

I think you missed the part of "the ability to replace STR with CUN in damage".
And willpower is not really needed when you are doing massive backstab.

And I think it should be fixed. The CUN build is plain too powerful...

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 23 novembre 2009 - 08:26 .

[mufuti7]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

I think you missed the part of "the ability to replace STR with CUN in damage".
And willpower is not really needed when you are doing massive backstab.

And I think it should be fixed. The CUN build is plain too powerful...

Actually I think you are confusing these abilities :-)
At least I cant understand what you are talking about.
 
If you use the hotfix for dex - NOTHING changes in regards to bonuses for cunning, the only thing that changes is instead of 1 damage per 1 STR you get 0.5 for str/dex each. Thus as a rogue you will do more damage
regardless of your cunning score because you will most likely have higher cun than str anyway. It is essentially the same as if you were to push Str instead of cunning, only Cunning is a much better stat for rogues while strength is not ideal.

The talent that swaps the damage modifier from STR to CUN is Lethality, all it does is using your CUN score instead of STR.

Of course there are other abilities, like the blood ability you get from the Stone Prisoner or the Assassins Exploit Weakness that make further use of cunning. But again, they work completely independantly from the
hotfix.
the only thing the fix changes is what I mentioned.

Also the CUN build is not overpowered at all, as I said stacking 70 cunning is not only unrealistic but also unnecessary for good damage. Willpower is an extremely good stat even for rogues because it is not all about
massive backstabs but also about having enough stamina for those long fights.

Modifié par mufuti7, 23 novembre 2009 - 08:46 .

[mufuti7]

Modifié par mufuti7, 23 novembre 2009 - 08:41 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

Simple math.
70 CUN equals 70 STR in counting damage when you have Lethality.
And without patch, the damage gained from CUN is 70 x 0.85, which is huge.
Adding all other CUN based Damage buff, you get a super DD rogue. 
 
With patch, the damage gained from CUN is 70x0.5x0.85. Still good, but not that good.

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 23 novembre 2009 - 08:46 .

[mufuti7]

But the base damage you lose you will get from Dexterity instead... I still cant understand what you are saying. No matter how much you pump cunning, every damage point you lose, you will get back through Dexterity as long as you are not running around with 70 CUN and 24 Dex of course...

In order to get 70 Cunning you will probably not even be able to pick ab Tier 3 Combat talents because you cant afford the points for Dex :-P
70 cunning is extremely unrealistic, with 40 cunning you are doing very well and can spend 20 points in str for the armor and a healthy amount of Dex, 36 at least and some Willpower and maybe even constitution.
So in a more realistic scenario with, for the sake of simplicity lets just say 40 Dex, 40 Cun you will get the same exact amount of BASE damage out of it before the fix or after.
70 Cunning is just theory, practically you are not going to want to stack it that high anyway.

Modifié par mufuti7, 23 novembre 2009 - 08:59 .

[rikkles]

Don't spend 20 on str, spend at most 18. You can get a +2 ring on all attributes.
With dex at 36, you can push your cun in the 60s.

Edit: fixed numbers.

Modifié par rikkles, 23 novembre 2009 - 09:11 .