283 réponses à ce sujet

[Hulk Hsieh]

Let's see the balanced +0.5/+0.5 build with patch then, using 50 CUN and 50 DEX.
This gives 50x0.5x0.85 + 50x0.5x0.85 = 50x 0.85.
Compared to the CUN build without patch, the damage is 20x0.85 = 17 less.

And the CUN/backstabb build doesn't rely to heavy on combat talent or willpower since normal backstab is uber enough to kill everything.

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 23 novembre 2009 - 09:00 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

I think dex 30 rather than 34 is good for CUN build.

Whirlwind can be useful, but the mastery isn't really needed since this is a two-dagger build.

[mufuti7]

Yes compared to 70 cunning it is less but 70 cunning is not realistic unless you specifically build towards it but why should you do it.



In my experience there are a lot of fights where high willpower will save your ass because with Momentum running and a few special styles, at least the dual weapon sweep and deadly strike thrown in your damage output will definately be higher than backstabbing alone.

I really dont think pushing cunning exclusively is an advantage, it may produce higher backstabs but overall combat performance will be lower because you have to gimp yourself in survivability and on-demand-skill usage which will in return push your damage.



would love to see some theory on that though, all skills calculated.

[rpgplayer1]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

Let's see the balanced +0.5/+0.5 build with patch then, using 50 CUN and 50 DEX.
This gives 50x0.5x0.85 + 50x0.5x0.85 = 50x 0.85.

Compared to the CUN build without patch, the damage is 20x0.85 = 17 less.

Wouldn't that also be 50*0.85 (lethality: 100% str = 100% cun), or the same in both cases, for balanced build (same cun and dex). With builds with better cunning being better prepatch then those with better dex, that are better postpatch. Of course, all this with lethality taken.

[rikkles]

mufuti7 wrote...

Yes compared to 70 cunning it is less but 70 cunning is not realistic unless you specifically build towards it but why should you do it.

In my experience there are a lot of fights where high willpower will save your ass because with Momentum running and a few special styles, at least the dual weapon sweep and deadly strike thrown in your damage output will definately be higher than backstabbing alone.
I really dont think pushing cunning exclusively is an advantage, it may produce higher backstabs but overall combat performance will be lower because you have to gimp yourself in survivability and on-demand-skill usage which will in return push your damage.

would love to see some theory on that though, all skills calculated.

There's more to it than that, even. You can get runes of paralysis and slow (and of course damage). These runes (3 per dagger) significantly increase the value of a single hit, independently of damage. Yesterday in one of my fights (end game, level 22 DW rogue balanced dex/cun of around 50 with bonuses) the grandmaster rune of paralysis saved my butt.
So when you take into consideration the runes, hits become more valuable. Therefore momentum is more useful, as is dex.

[Hulk Hsieh]

Well, you'll have enough stamina to survive, from fade and "+2 to all" ring, and +stamina equipment from somewhere...



With higher damage, your enemy dies quick so you can turn off Momentum earlier.

The sweep is useful, but it doesn't really cost that much.

Heavy armor isn't an issue since CUN happens to add to armor penetration.



Ultimately, I believe the CUN/dagger build is "too powerful" because the bug isn't fixed yet.

And I'd like it to be fixed since I consider it exploiting.

[FlintlockJazz]

Just thought I'd mention that I don't think the first ten points in a stat count toward anything, I'm pretty sure that in the description it always says "For every point above ten..." Not certain though, and don't know if it will influence the results much as I haven't really looked into it.

[EvilThetan]

Lethiality should do to rouges what arcane warrior does with mages. Arcain warriors can you use their magic in place of strenght to equip armor, rouges should be able o use their cunning in place of strenght to wield swords/ axes.

Does the backstabbing formula still work with swords/ axes/ maces? If not it seems like abandoning daggers messes with a huge part of the rouge build.

Modifié par EvilThetan, 26 novembre 2009 - 07:03 .

[HighlandBerserkr]

Whatever, i must stay true to character Daggers may suck but i must use them, Sword in one hand, Dagger in the other A la Artemis Entreri.

[The Lord Revan]

Stupid question maybe this bug is on all versions or only PC ?

Modifié par The Lord Revan, 03 décembre 2009 - 05:29 .

[JKoopman]

Pardon me for asking the douche question, but... why does it matter? All this griping about the DEX bug and debate about whether an all-CUN build is best or how many exact points should be balanced between DEX and CUN to achieve the mythical maximum damage output... how about people just play the game? Even with the DEX bug it's not like it's impossible to succeed end-game. You may be dealing x dps less than you otherwise might, but the fact that people didn't even realize there was a DEX big until a dev told them weeks after release tells me that the difference can't be all that great.



Seriously, this is a single-player game with no PvP. As long as you're able to defeat the end boss then what does any of it really matter?

[Koralis]

rikkles wrote...
There's more to it than that, even. You can get runes of paralysis and slow (and of course damage).

I've been meaning to ask... runes that "slow movement."  Is it movement speed only or also attack speed?

[JKoopman]

EvilThetan wrote...

Lethiality should do to rouges what arcane warrior does with mages. Arcain warriors can you use their magic in place of strenght to equip armor, rouges should be able o use their cunning in place of strenght to wield swords/ axes.

Actually, no. Arcane Warrior allows mages to use their magic stat in place of strength because it's MAGIC (eg: the mage isn't actually lifting that sword, a spell is lifting it for him). Being exceptionally clever and witty isn't going to help you wield a 6 ft long 12 lbs greatsword with any effectiveness.

[rikkles]

Koralis wrote...

rikkles wrote...
There's more to it than that, even. You can get runes of paralysis and slow (and of course damage).

I've been meaning to ask... runes that "slow movement."  Is it movement speed only or also attack speed?

I believe it's both.

[rikkles]

My first runthrough was as a dual-wielding dagger rogue with balanced dex/cun and lethality, so the bug (even though I ended up using a patch) didn't affect me any which way.

In normal mode I had absolutely no problem obliterating the end boss and winning the game.



DW dagger rogues definitely have extremely high DPS, but the really cool thing is when you liberally apply the poisons and runes. That gives you a hell of a lot more ooomph than switching from a balanced dex/cun rogue to a maxed cun rogue without the patch.

[fro7k]

pretendeka wrote...

There is an intersting topic in the other DA forums regarding a bug concerning dexterity and daggers that is somewhat depressing as my main character was to be a dagger wielding rogue.  I would like to see if Bioware can give any additional feedback on the comments by Georg Zoeller, Senior Technical Designer regarding a bug that effects the dexterity modifier for daggers, and the usefulness of daggers in general.

The thread can be found here:

http://daforums.biow...forum=135&sp=15

For those that don't want to read the entire thread, here are the two comments I am referring to:

"There is one weapon that is not affected by dexterity at this point is the dagger, it gets +1.0 damage from Strength instead of 0.5 from Strength and 0.5 from Dex."

"On a dagger (and believe me, daggers don't really cut it in mid-endgame due to their limited attribute modifier potential), the impact in early game is actually not that much. Not enough to even notice in fact."

I am especially concerned about the comment about daggers not being worthwhile from mid to end game.  If that is the case, I may as well start a new character.  Any further feedback you can provide on these comments and any plans to fix this bug would be appreciated.

I see it this way:

a) Daggers are rogue-oriented
Daggers have a dex instead of str requirement to wield
c) Daggers are meant to hit often and accurately rather than like a ton of bricks, rogues are not meant to be mighty hitters
d) Because they don't have a str requirement, you can skip advancing str entirely, and use lethality with a high cunning score which also has armour penetration bonuses.

Remember that every attribute point you spend in one stat is one not spent in another.  Deprive your rogue of strength and give him lots of dex and he becomes very agile and hard to hit.  It's a tradeoff.  Yes, it's inferior to a high str sword-wielder if you only care about damage, but the tradeoff is great defense.  Think of it this way: you're getting to pump all your points into a stat that makes you harder to hit AND improves your damage, if not as much.  Str-focused chars are pumping a stat that improves damage, only.

Furthermore with lethality and a high cunning store you can skimp on talents like persuasion and lock-picking somewhat, which can then be wisely invested elsewhere.

[ioannisdenton]

this bug affects onlypc or consoles too? damn please bioware release a patch for consoles!!!!

[cpip]

rikkles wrote...

My first runthrough was as a dual-wielding dagger rogue with balanced dex/cun and lethality, so the bug (even though I ended up using a patch) didn't affect me any which way.
In normal mode I had absolutely no problem obliterating the end boss and winning the game.

DW dagger rogues definitely have extremely high DPS, but the really cool thing is when you liberally apply the poisons and runes. That gives you a hell of a lot more ooomph than switching from a balanced dex/cun rogue to a maxed cun rogue without the patch.

Yup.  Same for my first character: a rogue who shifted from sword & dagger to twin daggers later in game as the better swords were too much for her strength.  Didn't seem to have any serious problems there. 

[MR-9]

I don't think anyone who fully understands the game mechanics and knows how to play will ever have a serious problem beating this game on any difficulty they want. Dragon Age didn't exactly turn out to be difficult.

[forum_broken]

It's a pity that this is happening, I got this game yesterday for the PS3 and immediately made a rogue. 10 Hours later and I've noticed he's useless due to me pumping points into dexterity and constitution. Well done EA/BioWare, I have to start again.



Although apart from that this game looks like it's got a lot of promise, I'm just snippy because I've wasted 2 days on this...I'm sure I'll be better next week. (Although this is typical of EA)

[AsheraII]

forum_broken wrote...

It's a pity that this is happening, I got this game yesterday for the PS3 and immediately made a rogue. 10 Hours later and I've noticed he's useless due to me pumping points into dexterity and constitution. Well done EA/BioWare, I have to start again.

Although apart from that this game looks like it's got a lot of promise, I'm just snippy because I've wasted 2 days on this...I'm sure I'll be better next week. (Although this is typical of EA)

Nice necro
Anyway, you can basically beat this game with a rogue putting every single point into Magic if you wanted. But nice job on reading the tooltips that are all over the game anyway, they might have given you a clue what all the different  attributes do.
Good luck on your next playthrough though, and remember, this game isn't a race to have the best toon on teh interweb. There's actually more of a challenge and fun in not optimizing everything. There's noone to complain about "underperformance" whatsoever, since it's single player anyway. So you're actually allowed to have FUN doing stupid things here, instead of having half a guild /w "OMFG u noob" or "you have to spec X to be allowed to join", like in digusting places like WoW or any other MMO you can think of for that matter.

[forum_broken]

You do realise how hypocritical you are there, if someones found a bug that's ruining the gameplay for them then they should express it in the forums. Without someone like yourself coming along and criticising them for "not enjoying the game like I did" or "not playing the game the way I personally think you should".



Some people enjoy levelling characters and seeing them develop. Please think before you post

[7evendays]

How is this not a priority I would much rather have working attributes than a stupid achievement patch (Which broke my game).

[Virtuous Lumox]

7evendays wrote...

How is this not a priority I would much rather have working attributes than a stupid achievement patch (Which broke my game).

EXACTLY!

[Virtuous Lumox]

Addicted2Anime wrote...

7evendays wrote...

How is this not a priority I would much rather have working attributes than a stupid achievement patch (Which broke my game).

EXACTLY!

I would expect BW to fix what has already been released BEFORE adding more content.  It just simply does not make sense to create more DLC and a retail expansion before fixing the core product (day one DLC aside).  I can understand fixing the achievemnets first simply because it is probably an easier fix, but why are they just getting to it now, month's after release?  Fix the dex bug, fix the save/vender glitch, fix everything so it is as intended on release day THEN give us more fun stuff to play with.

Why would you upgrade your car stereo (READ: DLC) if the damn car has a leaky tire that could blow any minute (READ: vender/save glitch) and the transmission is stuck (READ: DEX bug)?