283 réponses à ce sujet

[Reventage]

C. Ouimet wrote...

Rogues gain an ability in the mid-end game that allows them to dual wield main hand weapons. This ability eliminates the need to use the smaller, off handed daggers near the end of the game.

Yeah, except that to use those main hand weapons require a minimum of 31 strenght at the highest tier. Which is a huge requirement for a rogue who's already struggling with the dexterity and cunning requirements on talents.

So a rogue will need at least 31 str, 35 dex and 22 cunning. That's 48 ability points from the base score, meaning 16 levels without investing a single point elsewhere. Not much wiggle room in that*.

Furthermore it completely obliterates any use you might get from Lethality, apart form the crit boost.

*Does not take in account bonus points from the first level etc.

Modifié par Reventage, 06 novembre 2009 - 12:17 .

[Taltherion]

The interesting point is that the prima guide mentions that piercing weapons get a damage bonus from dex, but lists only bows and crossbows as piercing weapons ...

[Giantmoth]

But won't lethality solve this problem, allowing you to use your cunning rather than your strength, when wielding daggers?



What exactly DOES dexterity do for daggers, the manual quotes that piercing weapons SPECIFICALLY(like daggers and arrows) do more damage the higher your dexterity is.

[Lord Shitzu]

Giantmoth wrote...

But won't lethality solve this problem, allowing you to use your cunning rather than your strength, when wielding daggers?

Maybe, but Dex should be your highest stat, and suddenly that highest stat does not in any way contribute to the damage your dagger deals, so you need to pump either Cunning or Str twice as hard.

The more disturbing thing is the assertion that daggers simply can't keep up with swords in the long run, no matter what, which would mean that you'd HAVE to pump Str (even if you go Lethality, which would suddenly be useless) since swords have much, much higher strength requirements to wield.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Just upgrade your strength?



Sheesh. You have more than enough points do all three.

[Twitchmonkey]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Just upgrade your strength?

Sheesh. You have more than enough points do all three.

Not really. Some talents require up to 36 dex, and the higher end longswords require strength to be in the 30s, and even if you aren't going to use lethality because you're suddenly forced to put points in strength, you still need at least 22 cunning to be able to finish off your lockpicking talent, for example.

Assuming you completely neglect willpower and constitution, which isn't really the best idea, it's still gonig to take awhile to get your stats to that level.

[Blips]

pretendeka wrote...
"There is one weapon that is not affected by dexterity at this point is the dagger, it gets +1.0 damage from Strength instead of 0.5 from Strength and 0.5 from Dex."

"On a dagger (and believe me, daggers don't really cut it in mid-endgame due to their limited attribute modifier potential), the impact in early game is actually not that much. Not enough to even notice in fact."

Wow, thanks Bioware for completely killing my dual-dagger wielding rogue. It seems that I'm going to be stuck doing 16 backstab dmg for the rest of the game. Apparently the thought of actually adding some late game gear didn't occur to you.

I'm guessing we're going to get the privilege of purchasing another $7 DLC in a few months that adds what should already be in the game? Gee, thanks.

Modifié par Blips, 06 novembre 2009 - 12:53 .

[Trogloditius]

Hang on... I may have missed something here, but the level 3 Rogue talent "Lethality" does damage based on Cunning if that stat is higher than strength. So the way I read it is you pump everything into dex and cunning and you have a knife wielding maniac who can do as much damage... no?

[Meteo63]

Trogloditius wrote...

Hang on... I may have missed something here, but the level 3 Rogue talent "Lethality" does damage based on Cunning if that stat is higher than strength. So the way I read it is you pump everything into dex and cunning and you have a knife wielding maniac who can do as much damage... no?

Yeah, but that Bioware guy on the other forums said that daggers are not really useful in the endgame, so you might need strength for the other weapons like swords in the end.

But I guess that make sense, what you said. I guess I'll just do that for now, until they fix the bug. Or go play my warriors and mages instead of the rogues... Hey, is this true for bows as well as daggers?

[dragero]

Trogloditius wrote...

Hang on... I may have missed something here, but the level 3 Rogue talent "Lethality" does damage based on Cunning if that stat is higher than strength. So the way I read it is you pump everything into dex and cunning and you have a knife wielding maniac who can do as much damage... no?

That sounds right. I have no idea. It's been a long week.

[Reventage]

Trogloditius wrote...

Hang on... I may have missed something here, but the level 3 Rogue talent "Lethality" does damage based on Cunning if that stat is higher than strength. So the way I read it is you pump everything into dex and cunning and you have a knife wielding maniac who can do as much damage... no?

You'll have a knife wielding maniac but you're not going to do optimal damage.

1.) Without high strenght all you could use would be daggers and we have a Dev on record stating that daggers do not do enough damage in endgame compared to all other weapons.

2.) Cunning would offer a damage bonus, yes, but you'd have to get *all* of your Attack Rating (meaning hit chance) from Dexterity, which as things stand now, no longer contributes to damage. So you'd miss more than Str/Dex rogue, who can get hit rating from Str also.

3.) Daggers only get 85% of the damage bonus from your attributes. Meaning that you can scale that damage bonus to an even lower number. Other weapons won't suffer from that.

[scyld]

Another problem here is one that is inherent to the rogue class: it seems they have to stretch their skill points over more skills than either mages or warriors need to.

[Roeg]

I just don't like the way two main hand weapons dual wielded look. I hope they fix the stat mod bug for daggers and maybe throw a few nice off-hand weapons into the end game.

[- Archangel -]

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Except, if you were to think about it, Daggers are nearly useless as weapons, since they're so small, they rely on you getting close to an enemy without their one with a longer reach ripping you to shreds. And in the mid-endgame, you're going to be fighting some very tough and powerful opponents, so naturally daggers are no longer going to cut it.

Dual-wielding dagger rogues may be the archetype, but you might not have noticed, but the DA-verse is trying to move away from those.

You mean move away from it like they are forcing you to have a rogue to unlock all the locked doors and chests?

[Meteo63]

So... does this dexterity bug affect bows as well? If I can't use a dagger rogue, I might want to go with a bow rogue instead.

[dragero]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

C. Ouimet wrote...

Rogues gain an ability in the mid-end game that allows them to dual wield main hand weapons. This ability eliminates the need to use the smaller, off handed daggers near the end of the game.

Are you kidding me?

Why even include daggers in the game if you just made them useless trash off-hand weapons?

Ridiculous

What is the point of making Cunning replace Strength as the damage modifier if the only weapon you can use with Dex/Cunning is a trash dagger or a low tier sword?

Hopefully my eyes are decieving me, and there is a Dex based melee weapon for rogues that is not trash.  And that Bioware devs are not actually telling us to trash the Dex and go into Str weapons as if it was not a big deal.

I haven't started my character but I was planning on using a dagger based dex/cun rogue/assassin, and this is very disappointing if true.

I think he's just offering a temporary way around this bug/oversight/flaw

[Oliver Sudden]

Sevenex wrote...

The staple for Rogues in any game, has always been duel-wielding daggers...

I never knew that about the dual-wielding. Rogues, and I've played them for years, pretty much always use daggers, but I think the dual-wielding gimmick is a pretty late addition.

Anyway, since my thief can't find a blackjack, maybe she'll start using a mace.

[- Archangel -]

Well my suggestion is keep making noise about this feature and hope the devs fix it. Failing that, maybe a member of the mod making community can fix it.

[Staylost]

I like the decision by Bioware to make daggers less than fantastic.



Archtype arguments are counterproductive, because pop archtypes are something every game like this has to work to shrug them off. So it is gratifying that Bioware is creating its own world, rather than pandering to whatever anyone thinks is cool.



The idea that a melee rogue must carefully spend between STR & CUN is intriguing. The one thing I might suggest is that lethality ADDS the CUN modifier to damage to the STR one (rather than substitutes) although this might get too powerful.

[Dynamomark]

Staylost wrote...

I like the decision by Bioware to make daggers less than fantastic.

Archtype arguments are counterproductive, because pop archtypes are something every game like this has to work to shrug them off. So it is gratifying that Bioware is creating its own world, rather than pandering to whatever anyone thinks is cool.

The idea that a melee rogue must carefully spend between STR & CUN is intriguing. The one thing I might suggest is that lethality ADDS the CUN modifier to damage to the STR one (rather than substitutes) although this might get too powerful.

The idea of having to carefully between STR & CUN may be "intriguing." But if you gonna make the "intrigue"  equitable, then they should make a fighter to have to "carefully spend" between MAGIC & DEX and make a mage to have to "carefully spend" between STR & DEX.

[Kakimori]

It is unconscionable that they had all the extra time to tweak this game and never noticed a bug of this magnitude.



This requires an IMMEDIATE FIX.

[MBirkhofer]

Staylost wrote...

I like the decision by Bioware to make daggers less than fantastic.

Archtype arguments are counterproductive, because pop archtypes are something every game like this has to work to shrug them off. So it is gratifying that Bioware is creating its own world, rather than pandering to whatever anyone thinks is cool.

The idea that a melee rogue must carefully spend between STR & CUN is intriguing. The one thing I might suggest is that lethality ADDS the CUN modifier to damage to the STR one (rather than substitutes) although this might get too powerful.

It doesnt have anything to do with archtypes.

The talent trees in the game itself, every tooltip in the game say rogues are supposed to be viable stacking dex and cunning.  And that daggers are supposed to be effective choices, gaining damage and hit from those stats.

NOTHING suggests daggers won't keep up, and the rogue will need to stack str to some level to weild swords at some point.
If this is true, then this is beyond horrible design. how the hell is anyone starting a rogue supposed to make good choices when picking skills and talents?   You don't wait till someone is level 30 whatever, has 15 str, and suddenly releases they can equip any weapons or armor to tell them, oops you need to reroll.  Becuase you need 20 str for armor, and 31 str for swords.

[SamuraiWindu]

The way I interpreted the text descriptions of Strength and Dexterity was that dagger damage would benefit from 100% of strength and 50% of dexterity.



But apparently they forgot to add dexterity into the equation.

[kisskukollon]

Damn I just pumped Dex to something like 45. I have 20 Str and I'm at level 17 or something. At least I have high armor :<