283 réponses à ce sujet

[D_Strider]

The thing that bugs me most about this issue (and by extension the dev response so far) is that it puts a particular skill on the critical path. So you'd damn well better have 36 dex and all four weapon skill slots else your DW rogue is gimped. Why the hell shouldn't dual wielding daggers be a viable choice?



The devs screwed up a weapon. Their response is, oh well just deal with an unintentionally weak(er) character until you are forced to take a particular skill at level 12, then it'll all be better. A) That's a terribly weak-sauce excuse. No one is buying it. and C) it is always better to improve things rather than play down their importance.



So, daggers are weak in the mid-game and shouldn't be used? Again, forcing a skill to keep a character playable is really lame. Two skills, really, since Lethality is needed to use Cunning for damage instead of Strength. It's also rather irritating to need 36 dexterity to get a talent that allows you to use weapons that don't USE dexterity in the damage calculation. It's rather contradictory all around.

[macayle]

C. Ouimet wrote...

Rogues gain an ability in the mid-end game that allows them to dual wield main hand weapons. This ability eliminates the need to use the smaller, off handed daggers near the end of the game.

um that is nice to know but is not the problem.  Some of us that play rogues like daggers ( ie most rogue players)  we are not interested in using swords.  Bad enough the daggers here are more like short swords than daggers.

[macayle]

D_Strider wrote...

The thing that bugs me most about this issue (and by extension the dev response so far) is that it puts a particular skill on the critical path. So you'd damn well better have 36 dex and all four weapon skill slots else your DW rogue is gimped. Why the hell shouldn't dual wielding daggers be a viable choice?

The devs screwed up a weapon. Their response is, oh well just deal with an unintentionally weak(er) character until you are forced to take a particular skill at level 12, then it'll all be better. A) That's a terribly weak-sauce excuse. No one is buying it. and C) it is always better to improve things rather than play down their importance.

So, daggers are weak in the mid-game and shouldn't be used? Again, forcing a skill to keep a character playable is really lame. Two skills, really, since Lethality is needed to use Cunning for damage instead of Strength. It's also rather irritating to need 36 dexterity to get a talent that allows you to use weapons that don't USE dexterity in the damage calculation. It's rather contradictory all around.

seems more like they have a bug and instead of admitting it or fixing it  they say just ignore it is not important  even when it is to most rogue players

[macayle]

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

Except, if you were to think about it, Daggers are nearly useless as weapons, since they're so small, they rely on you getting close to an enemy without their one with a longer reach ripping you to shreds. And in the mid-endgame, you're going to be fighting some very tough and powerful opponents, so naturally daggers are no longer going to cut it.

Dual-wielding dagger rogues may be the archetype, but you might not have noticed, but the DA-verse is trying to move away from those.

except for the fact that the idea is you sneak up behind a mob and stab them in the back.  So the reach of their weapon is a non factor

[Suisekai]

I could understand their sentiment, if not for the fact that by probability, a sixth of the game base theoretically plays melee rogue mains, and a third has used dual daggers at some point, and an even larger number employs a rogue in their party whom most likely uses at least one dagger.



This is by no means an unimportant issue.

[Dynamomark]

Even if you are interested in using swords, it would cost too much STR to get a decent sword. This would also in turn undermine the usefulness of lethality talent because now you have to pump up STR, CUN, and DEX at the same time. That also means you can't make your CUN much higher than STR. Of course you could ignore DEX altogether (outrageous for a rogue character isn't it), put on a heavy armor, and be a gimpy warrior instead

[grifflyman007]

So I know there are already a ton of
topics debating this, but I want to throw more fuel to the fire and
make sure BioWare atones for their sins.




I don't think any weapon should become
useless in mid to late game, and I think this quote really hurt a lot
of players who rolled rouges. Why would daggers become useless?
Blasphemy!

[Reventage]

D_Strider wrote...

It's also rather irritating to need 36 dexterity to get a talent that allows you to use weapons that don't USE dexterity in the damage calculation. It's rather contradictory all around.

While I agree with some of your sentiments on this being a very strange design choice, I do feel like I must point out that a strength based rogue doesn't necessarily need the Dual-Weapon Mastery talent, seeing as you don't need it to wield the larger weapons, you just need it to wield one in offhand.

So basically you can still use one of the bigger weapons in the main hand and then take the slightly lesser but still relevant damage bonus from the offhand with a dagger, even if you don't invest in Dex. So you don't absolutely need the Dual-Weapon Mastery talent or a high dex to be effective. It's just a bit strange that this is the case as Dex is often seen as a key ability to rogues.

Furthermore it does make a good sense that the Dual-Weapon Mastery talent requires a high dexterity to unlock. It represents how nimble you need to be to use two large weapons at the same time.

[theczaroftsars]

this is terrible! i came back on the forums to start praising the game and its mechanics again, then i saw this thread and had to read it.



Im still in awe of everything so far, but this is kind of a let down, although i was planning on dual wielding two full sized weapons anyway, and i agree that towards the end daggers should not be that effective agianst the higher level bosses, like using an enchanted axe and a magical sword against an ogre would certainly cause more damage than an enchanted sword and a magical dagger

[Timortis]

Reventage wrote...


While I agree with some of your sentiments on this being a very strange design choice, I do feel like I must point out that a strength based rogue doesn't necessarily need the Dual-Weapon Mastery talent, seeing as you don't need it to wield the larger weapons, you just need it to wield one in offhand.

So basically you can still use one of the bigger weapons in the main hand and then take the slightly lesser but still relevant damage bonus from the offhand with a dagger, even if you don't invest in Dex. So you don't absolutely need the Dual-Weapon Mastery talent or a high dex to be effective. It's just a bit strange that this is the case as Dex is often seen as a key ability to rogues.

Furthermore it does make a good sense that the Dual-Weapon Mastery talent requires a high dexterity to unlock. It represents how nimble you need to be to use two large weapons at the same time.

If you're not going to have high DEX as a Rogue, you might as well play a dual-wielding Warrior then, what's the difference? For me and many other people who want to see daggers be useful, the whole point of playing a Rogue is to play a character that plays differently from a Warrior and uses different attributes, in this case high DEX and low STR.

[Seraph Aur]

I'd really like to see an official response on this bug and what's being done to address it. Like many of the other posters here, I'd like to create a dual dagger Rogue.

[countmonkey]

I think my main issue with this is that it is not obvious from in game descriptions that daggers wont continue to be a viable choice for a rogue focused on dextrous attacks and exploiting weakness rather than raw power.



My initial character is a Dalish Elf rogue and I decided after looking through the talents that I'd enjoy going the melee route and with lethality I wouldnt have to put any points in strength at all. If daggers still become worthless, even with the dexterity not having an effect bug fixed in the future, then my plan is scuppered. But how was I supposed to know?

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

C. Ouimet wrote...

Rogues gain an ability in the mid-end game that allows them to dual wield main hand weapons. This ability eliminates the need to use the smaller, off handed daggers near the end of the game.

Heaven forbid somebody uses a low-str build.

[countmonkey]

Timortis wrote...

If you're not going to have high DEX as a Rogue, you might as well play a dual-wielding Warrior then, what's the difference? For me and many other people who want to see daggers be useful, the whole point of playing a Rogue is to play a character that plays differently from a Warrior and uses different attributes, in this case high DEX and low STR.

Exactly. A duel wielding warrior would be like a barbarian dirvish, hacking and slashing through enemies with raw strength. A dual wielding rogue would be more about cunning and dexterity, ducking and dodging blows and finding vulnerabilities. If the rogue needs strength too and has to wield full size weapons then what is the difference in style between the classes?

[Taleroth]

George Zoeller, the Senior Technical Designer, has an unofficial bugfix for the dagger bug.

http://daforums.biow...04067&forum=135

[Nemesis7884]

what sense does it have then to increaese dexterty at all? that doesnt make sense at all, then why would anyone play a rogue over a dual wielding warrior except for the lockpicking...???

[macayle]

Taleroth wrote...

George Zoeller, the Senior Technical Designer, has an unofficial bugfix for the dagger bug.
http://daforums.biow...04067&forum=135

They locked down the thread with that fix so i can't download it now.  Does anyone have a copy of this file  from that link  Bitm_base.gda  when i try to click it to downlaod it i get a message that it does no exist which i assume has soemthign to do with bioware lockign the thread down for beign posted in the wrong section of the forum site.

Modifié par macayle, 06 novembre 2009 - 06:31 .

[nOObonian]

- Archangel - wrote...

Actually I'm a die hard mage player...I normally hate rogues.

But for some strange reason I really want to try playing a rogue in DAO.

It makes getting chests open easier

[Reventage]

Timortis wrote...

If you're not going to have high DEX as a Rogue, you might as well play a dual-wielding Warrior then, what's the difference? For me and many other people who want to see daggers be useful, the whole point of playing a Rogue is to play a character that plays differently from a Warrior and uses different attributes, in this case high DEX and low STR.

I'm not fighting against you. The reason I chose to play a rogue was exactly because I wanted to play a high Dex/Cunning type of a character. In fact I was griping about this very issue even before the game was released.

What I discussed earlier was a realistic combat rogue build that you can make with the current ruleset. That doesn't mean I liked the design decisions that force rogues to stack strength but seeing as that's the situation, I can offer opinions on how to do it most efficiently.

And it's not like you won't get a different experience if you play a Str DW rogue or a Str DW warrior. There's still a wealth of difference in the Talents and backstabbing. You can't just equate them and most likely the rogue would be better than the warrior from a pure damage perspective.

So if it seemed like it was the intentional official design choice that the rogues would be built so similarity stat wise as warriors I wouldn't even be complaining about it. I wouldn't like it and I most likely wouldn't even consider playing a rogue character, but I'd accept it as a design choice.

But as things are, there are plenty of indicators that this wasn't the original design idea for rogues. The tooltips seem to point towards the viability of a combat Dex/Cunning dagger rogue and the existence of such talents as Lethality strengthens this impression. What I have a problem with is that this picture doesn't at the moment reflect reality.

Modifié par Reventage, 06 novembre 2009 - 06:40 .

[pretendeka]

Taleroth wrote...

George Zoeller, the Senior Technical Designer, has an unofficial bugfix for the dagger bug.
http://daforums.biow...04067&forum=135

This is promising, especially considering this statement on the download page (http://dragonage.gul...s#dagger_bugfix):

"This fix is for patch 1.0 and 1.01 only. You will need to remove this file when the problem is fixed in an official patch."

My question now is -- While it's is great we are seeing fixes and patches deployed so quickly for the PC, how long will console users need to wait before our versions of the game can also be patched?

[Seraph Aur]

Reventage wrote...
I'm not fighting against you. The reason I chose to play a rogue was exactly because I wanted to play a high Dex/Cunning type of a character. In fact I was griping about this very issue even before the game was released.

What I discussed earlier was a realistic combat rogue build that you can make with the current ruleset. That doesn't mean I liked the design decisions that force rogues to stack strength but seeing as that's the situation, I can offer opinions on how to do it most efficiently.

Just a point of clarification.  Given that the current implementation is contrary to the information in the game's tool tips, I think it's pretty clear that this isn't a ruleset or a design decision.  It's a bug.  While looking for viable work-arounds is worthwhile, I think it's also important to do everything possible to encourage BioWARE to patch this bug ASAP.  I encourage everyone to a) stay positive/supportive and keep the pressure up so this gets some attention.

[Taleroth]

pretendeka wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

George Zoeller, the Senior Technical Designer, has an unofficial bugfix for the dagger bug.
http://daforums.biow...04067&forum=135

This is promising, especially considering this statement on the download page (http://dragonage.gul...s#dagger_bugfix):

"This fix is for patch 1.0 and 1.01 only. You will need to remove this file when the problem is fixed in an official patch."

My question now is -- While it's is great we are seeing fixes and patches deployed so quickly for the PC, how long will console users need to wait before our versions of the game can also be patched?

I imagine PC and console patching will be about the same.  The 1.01 patch includes updates to problems that are:
1) PC only, console doesn't have the problem at all.
2) PC only, problem was fixed on console prior to release.

So far, it seems the only PC-only patches we'll get are for PC exclusive problems.

[NetBeansAndJava]

Blips wrote...

OK well ignoring the fact that the dex bug does exist and is crippling rogue builds...

I think the what the dev was saying about daggers was slightly taken out of context. I've just arrived in Orzammar, and I've found a dagger being sold for 148 gold.

[spoilers]

The Rose's Thorn (Dragonbone)
6.4 damage, 8 armor penetration, strength modifier 0.85
+2 dex, +1 combat health regen, +3 damage, +5% chance of criticals, +30% damage of criticals / backstabs.
3 rune slots.

Good grief man, that does look good!  But one must compare this to swords or this is a pointless observation, yes?  How does the best sword compare to the best dagger endgame?

Obviously the best sword will have more dmg (due to slower swing rate), but will the dmg be so significant as to make daggers a silly choice?

[murteas]

There is a fix (unofficial) for this bug... It is here:http://dragonage.gulbsoft.org/doku.php/items/weapons



Don't know if it was already posted, but here it is again.

[macayle]

murteas wrote...

There is a fix (unofficial) for this bug... It is here:http://dragonage.gulbsoft.org/doku.php/items/weapons

Don't know if it was already posted, but here it is again.

the problem is when you  try to download the file ( bitm-base.dga ) there you get a message it does not exist.  now if you were able to get that file downloaded please please pretty please send it to me.

Modifié par macayle, 06 novembre 2009 - 07:38 .