283 réponses à ce sujet

[MikeIsGood]

Correct, as far as I know.



Me, I've never enjoyed Warriors much and figured I'd just continue with a Mage until all of this got sorted out, but i just made a Human Noble S&S Warrior and am having a good bit of fun so far. I've played through the camp so many times by now that I skipped through the dialog and it didn't take long to get my new char the Wilds. I might just keep playing with him. Regretfully, it would change the makeup of the party that I wanted - PC rogue, Alistair, Shale, and Morrigan.

[Seraph Aur]

Default137 wrote...

*off-topic*

I wonder where this whole "ROGUES USE DAGGERS FOR FIGHTING11!1" thing got started.

Actually, A small stabbing/slashing weapon (dagger, stiletto, ice pick) is a much more precise instrument of dealing death than a large slashing weapon, especially if one wishes to make the kill silently.  The stiletto has been an assassin's tool since at least the Middle Ages, and probably earlier.  It is highly concealable and is able to be driven between plates of armor or links in chainmail.  Although knights used them primarily to finish off wounded opponents (i.e. as secondary weapons), they were extremely popular in Renaissance Italy as primary weapons.  Commandos as recently as WW2 were issued the "Fairbairn-Sykes" style dagger because of its utility in dispatching enemy sentries quickly and quietly.  (Severing the wind-pipe made it impossible for the target to call out and alert his compatriots.)

In the context of a fantasy high middle ages world like that in Dragon Age: Origins, it would be unlikely for a "Rogue" to face a "Warrior" in straight combat, unless the Rogue wanted to die quickly and painfully.  Everything else being equal, the guy with more armor and the larger weapon is going to win.  But if that same Warrior was distracted and didn't notice the guy with the stabby, stabby sneaking up behind him, it would be a very different story.

[Seraph Aur]

Oh, and I plan to play through as much as I can as a Dagger Rogue before the patch comes out. Would be awesome to be able to say "I finished the game before they fixed daggers."

[Nethlem]

This is so sad...

I'm playing a DW rogue with daggers, i'm 20 hours into the game, i got lethally and i pushed cunning and dex.



Just going swords ain't an option because of str requirements that (as allready mentioned) would render lethally useless. But it's also about playstyle...



DW normal weapons usually means high average damage but less crits

DW daggers usually meant medium/low average damage but many crits



If you take a look at the rogue trees you can clearly see how they had been intended for at least 3 playstyles:



Archer - No explanation needed

Dualist - Focuses on higher average damage, uses slashing instead of stabbing

Assasin - Focuses on high crit chance and armor penetration, uses piercing/stabbing weapons like daggers has lower damage on normal hits compared to a dualist build.



Sadly with this bug assasin builds are rendered inferior... there is a reason why assasin specialisation adds crit and why dualist specialisation adds damage per hit. These specialisations are meant for different "playstyles" sure the differences are not night and day. But the differences are big enough to have an impact on equipment selection, stat distribution and skill selection.



Right now i feel like i wasted 20 hours of my time, i hope it's just a bug and not "working as intended" because if this is working as intended than the skill trees/specialisations don't make any sense at all.





Anyway: Can anybody confirm that this temporary fix corrupts savegames? Because a friend of mine told me that right after he told me about that fix.

[The-Cyber-Dave]

I know how you feel about the 20 hours of your life wasted bit. I just played a dwarven rogue up to like level 9-10 or so. Started with dagger/axe combo, but I just got lethality. My idea was to cap strength at 20, go for double daggers. Now that I have picked lethality, I am stuck with that combination. Except with this bug, that combination is useless. I am torn between making a new character (and starting the game from scratch... boo), or trying for a higher strength/dex double axe build. I am worried that this will totally nurf the usefulness of lethality. Then again, lethality increases your critical hit chance, and axes have a pretty decent critical hit chance...



I don't know.

[Thelgow]

The-Cyber-Dave wrote...

I know how you feel about the 20 hours of your life wasted bit. I just played a dwarven rogue up to like level 9-10 or so. Started with dagger/axe combo, but I just got lethality. My idea was to cap strength at 20, go for double daggers. Now that I have picked lethality, I am stuck with that combination. Except with this bug, that combination is useless. I am torn between making a new character (and starting the game from scratch... boo), or trying for a higher strength/dex double axe build. I am worried that this will totally nurf the usefulness of lethality. Then again, lethality increases your critical hit chance, and axes have a pretty decent critical hit chance...

I don't know.

Same here. I just grabbed the 2 before Lethality. Had I known, I would have passed it up entirely.

[The-Cyber-Dave]

It pisses me off even more, because I don't have x-box online. I will be forced to get x-box online just to fix this game.

Its a GREAT game. But damn does this bug REALLY upset me.

I'm thinking of just trying to play it through as a dwarf dex/cun double dagger user anyway, and playing on a lower lethality setting. 

I wonder just how much this will affect damage endgame. Every point above 10 is supposed to give you .5 add to damage, right? So, assuming a dex of something like 30-40, we are talking a 10-15 drop in attack damage. That is a huge penalty.

Modifié par The-Cyber-Dave, 07 novembre 2009 - 12:59 .

[macayle]

The-Cyber-Dave wrote...

It pisses me off even more, because I don't have x-box online. I will be forced to get x-box online just to fix this game.

Its a GREAT game. But damn does this bug REALLY upset me.

I'm thinking of just trying to play it through as a dwarf dex/cun double dagger user anyway, and playing on a lower lethality setting. 

I wonder just how much this will affect damage endgame. Every point above 10 is supposed to give you .5 add to damage, right? So, assuming a dex of something like 30-40, we are talking a 10-15 drop in attack damage. That is a huge penalty.

um why do you need x-box online to fix this game?

[The-Cyber-Dave]

Because I am a console gamer. I don't buy PC games. I own Dragon Age Origins for the X-box 360. In order to patch the problem, I will need to have access to x-box online.

[macayle]

heh they posted a new fix for the daggers and dex and it works as confirmed by two devs and those of us who have tried it. goes into your override directory



http://social.biowar...ct/428/#details

[biowarehasmyheart]

With the fix posted right above me, my backstab dmg was increased by around 8-11 pts. Im easily doing the most damage in my party right now, if of course im directly behind the target doing my backstab spree.



I am not changing my plans on becoming an assassination backstab rogue, its quite fun as I feel powerfull (only lvl 8 tho)

[phordicus]

countmonkey wrote...

MikeIsGood wrote...

Actually, he just went on to answer both my questions. Here's the conversation:

DOM: Dual wielding daggers is very viable due to the high attack speed you're getting. If you really want to powergame, go for a bit more STR than you would usually due to the dagger bug, but really, even with the bug and a dex centric build, dual wielding is still very viable (which is the reason we didn't catch this earlier, people were doing well enough with dual wielding daggers even without the bug).

I was just about to paste this here. It kind of contradicts what he said about daggers not being worth using later in game, so that's good I think?

i think the "not worth using" part could be translated as "not optimized for powergaming".

[TAIM2DAI]

I don't understand what all the doom and gloom is about... I've always done the most damage out of all my party members as a dagger rogue albiet felt I should be doing more damage and after downloading the second dex fix ( which I also confirmed works but the tooltip is wrong it says +1 attack instead of 50%dex50% strength) I've been doing noitceably more damage which is exactly the range I was expecting. I think if you spec your talents right, also your party member talents ( Morrigan has Death Hex which makes rogues do LOL damage) and lots of stun abilities for coupe des grace you have an extremely capable rogue. You probably wont do as much damage as a rogue using 2 one handed swords but I don't even consider them a rogue class in anyway.



Lets not forget the main reason for games like Dragon Age is the enthralling story and deep character relationships.



Just stick to it guys Dagger Rogues aren't bad at all end game



on a side note does anyone know how to upload characters? I've only been able to upload 1 character from the character creator ages ago and every time I try to upload my new chars they just don't appear. Does anyone else have this bug?

[gizzt]

Im playing a dagger rogue, I have gear that is increasing my backstab damage by 70% (45% of that comes from weapons).  Also the talent that increase backstab damage.

And my main hand backstab is going for 100 (seen a few go for 110-120 with all buffs,runes etc) and offhand about 80. Keep in mind that daggers are also 33% faster than swords etc and your attacking a couple times a second with momentum up at least. Playing on nightmare and things seem to auto die for me, and the damage would be higher on lower diff level.

Keep in mind that enchants/runes have more effect on the faster daggers as the damage does not scale with weapon speed.

Dagger rogues are fine, if you have base 35 dex for the skills, the damage nerf with the fix would be minor at best and you will still stack cunning for the damage + AP.

Modifié par gizzt, 08 novembre 2009 - 02:49 .

[Silensfurtim]

dagger fix updated



http://dragonage.gul...rity_hotfix_101

[AWJ9999]

My comment on the dagger/archery hotfix, crossposted from the other forum since it's being closed today:

Hello. I'm a console (X360) player and so can't play with this hotfix,
but I'm assuming that eventually some version of it is going to make it
into a Title Update that will be forced on (Internet-connected)
consoles, so I'm going to comment on the hotfix out of semi-ignorance.
Bear with me.

Also,
this is a rewrite of a post I originally made using the feedback form
on the hotfix site, a post which is currently still sitting in
moderation (eta: it's still waiting in moderation, assuming it went through at all.  I had to provide my email address in order to post on that site, but I didn't get any kind of confirmation email that I'd sent a comment)

Also, this is my first post on this forum (eta: coincidentally, it's my first post on this forum too). Greetings, everyone.

IMO, changing shortbows to 100% Dexterity is a terrible change, for several reasons.

1)
It's completely illogical that out of the three missile weapons,
shortbows and crossbows are the most mechanically similar to each other
and longbows are the outlier. Shortbows and longbows are just
different-sized versions of the same weapon, but crossbows are a
completely different type of device. It's crossbows that should be the
outlier, not longbows! The game-as-shipped had this right to begin with
(apart from the bug that causes crossbows to get no attribute bonus to damage whatsover--how did that ever slip through testing?)

2)
You've merely swapped one imbalance for a worse one. Before, shortbows
were supposedly poor cousins to the longbow (and crossbows were
completely unusable due to the bug); now, the shortbow is the reigning
king of missile weapons--and it's the least expensive and has the
easiest attribute requirement to equip! Just look at all the comments
in this thread (eta: of course I meant the thread on the other forum) along the line of "pls change [name of item] from a
longbow to a shortbow so it'll still be good kthx".

3) IMO,
there is nothing actually wrong with shortbows being poor cousins. Look
at the attribute requirements of the two weapons. Longbows require a
whopping 4 more Dexterity to equip than shortbows of the same material.
That's more than a whole level, and it's huge for weapons--it's
like the difference between medium and
heavy armor, or heavy and massive.  In the early to middle game, a Cunning-focused utility rogue or
a Strength-focused warrior uses a shortbow because he doesn't
have enough Dexterity to equip a longbow. Shortbows are like daggers,
or like lighter grades of armor--you use them because you don't have
the stats or the talent to use something stronger. If daggers were just
as good as swords, Dual-Weapon Mastery would be pointless. And if
shortbows are just as good as longbows (let alone better) than it makes
no sense for longbows to have such drastically higher attribute
requirements.

The only way there's a problem is if shortbows are so
much worse than longbows that it's better to equip a lower-tier longbow
than a higher-tier shortbow with the same attribute requirement. Are
shortbows really that terrible in the game-as-shipped? I don't think
they are. Someone up the thread proved that the displayed damage on the
character screen for missile weapons does not take into account
attack speed (rate of fire). Thus it exaggerates the advantage of
longbows and especially of crossbows (perhaps that's how the crossbow
Dexterity bug got overlooked?)

Going beyond the shortbow issue,
it seems to me that this hotfix is going far, far beyond the scope of a
bugfix and into the realm of totally changing the role of archery in
the game to cater to the invalid expectations of certain players ("I
should be able to play a WoW Hunter in DAO!") Quoting Selea (eta: a user on the other forum):

Quote: This
is the problem. This is what you don't get. This is NOT how things
should work. You are not supposed to have all members of the party good
at archery that in group are way better than a character that invests
fully on it. You should not be supposed to prefer having a party of
ranged archers instead of a fully specced archer member.

How
things should work? Says who, besides you? It seems like you're merely
transferring your expectations from some other game onto DAO. Where is
it written in stone that RPG Characters Must Be Pure Melee Or Pure
Archery?

Quote: What
you say doesn't make any sense. Sure, archery is powerful the way you
see it, shame that it is not how it should be. So, in fact, also if you
say the contrary, archery sucks just for the reasons you like it and
you think is very powerful.

Again,
who are you to decide "how it should be"? Note that the game's
interface includes a "swap weapon" function that swaps a character
between two sets of equipped weapons and also between two action
hotbars, one for each set of weapons. The instruction manual states that the main use of this command is to switch between a melee weapon and a bow.
It seems to me that the interface, at least, is designed around the
expectation that nonmage characters in DAO will use both melee and
archery, rather than specialize 100% in one or the other.

I'd
like to see someone put together an alternate patch that fixes
Dexterity for crossbows, adds +1 penetration for shortbows, adds 10m
range either for all missile weapons or just for shortbows, and changes
nothing else about bows. And I hope that PC users who are in the
"archery is mostly fine" camp will test this alternate patch (the "I
wanna be a WoW Hunter" folks who like the current uber-shortbow patch
won't like it much) (eta: rpgplayer1 on the other forum has made exactly such a patch.  Thanks!  Of course, I can't test it since I'm on a console.  It's available at http://social.bioware.com/project/669/)

Here are my predictions:

Crossbows
will be the bow of choice for "archer builds", especially rogues. With
Dexterity fixed crossbows should do far and away the most single-shot
damage, meaning they work best with Arrow of Slaying. Scattershot, and
Combat Stealth. They also have good synergy with Aim since I believe
the slowdown on Aim is a flat amount, not proportional to your weapon's
base speed. Crossbows have the steepest attribute requirements, since
you need pure Dexterity for damage and also Strength to equip
them--this cements their role as the specialist's weapon, the archery
counterpart of the maul.

Longbows should be the bow of choice
for characters who aren't pure archers but have lots of Dexterity (dual
wielders), and for archers using Suppressing Fire or the various
debuffing clickies due to their higher rate of fire than c (archers might even equip a longbow and a crossbow
in their alternate weapon slots and switch between them depending on
what talents they're currently using!)

Shortbows should be the
fallback for characters without enough Dexterity to use a longbow. They
should usually be slightly inferior to a longbow of the same tier, but
not drastically so (and certainly not inferior to a lower-tier longbow)
However, a character with extremely high Strength might actually do
more DPS with a shortbow even if he can equip a longbow, since the
shortbow's faster rate of fire means he gets his Strength bonus on that
many more shots.

This alternate hotfix should maintain a niche
for each type of bow and keep the overall balance of archery similar to
the game-as-shipped. I believe this is a better direction for an
eventual official patch to go than one that drastically changes the
role of archery in the game, the balance between the bow
types, and the difficulty of all encounters with enemy archers.

[Lodegreaunce75]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

(in fact I may have insanely over leveled my cunning...)

With leathality, you can never over level your cunning. 

[Haexpane]

Wait, they intentionally made daggers useless for mid/end game? WHY?

[Khajja42]

haex, i just finished normal with a dagger rogue, doing majority of team dmg. i wouldn't call daggers useless by a long shot...

[onemeg72]

I am a DW rogue, but honestly I am scared to get this fix because I'm afraid it might make combat involving archers too hard for me, lol. I don't want to have to switch to easy because I like strategizing around friendly fire. Anyway I'm hoping they publish a real fix soon.

[Haexpane]

Khajja42 wrote...

haex, i just finished normal with a dagger rogue, doing majority of team dmg. i wouldn't call daggers useless by a long shot...

But one of the guys who coded the game did?  I use daggers on Zev and he has decent DPS because of fast attacks and specials.   But now I'm wondering if I change him to swords, maybe his DPS would 2x, 3x?

[PhantoMSouljaX]

Seriously Bioware dev's,would you please give console user's some feedback on where the rogue bug patch is at for gettting it to us?Because i absolutley love this game on my 360 and im sure the feeling is mutual across the board.

[Snax2008]

if you dont have a override folder just put in in the patch folder and it works

Modifié par Snax2008, 17 novembre 2009 - 05:24 .

[Kelston]

Khajja42 wrote...

haex, i just finished normal with a dagger rogue, doing majority of team dmg. i wouldn't call daggers useless by a long shot...

Do it on a real difficulty.

[Setz69]

That's sad that the official response is "Use longswords" A dw dagger rogue with momentum gets in twice the attacks a longsword wielding rogue would. This coupled with coupe de grace can usually have you dropping a guy before his stun is off. A better fix than "just use longswords" would be to pump up your cunning and get lethality. Than just get enough dex for the abilities you need, and pump the rest into cunning. Having a high cunning and the dagger taking it all from cunning is actually better than splitting it .5 between cunning and .5 dex. Say your dex/cunning is equal at 36, your only getting 18 from cunning and 18 from dex for a total of 36. If your cunning is 46 and your dex is 26(enough for any good dual weapon skills, expert, riposte, momentum etc), your getting 46 extra dmg from your cunning. Where as if you were splitting them you'd only get 36 dmg.

Not to mention if you bypass the cookie cutter Assasin/duelist spec and Go duelist/bard assasin/bard your song of courage with that much cunning grants a NICE bonus.

So please bioware. DON'T fix this problem.

Modifié par Setz69, 16 novembre 2009 - 08:24 .