283 réponses à ce sujet

[rikkles]

@Setz69: except that if it were fixed, you'd want to do the opposite and boost the hell out of dex instead, because it will give you a huge bonus to attack and defense, which cunning doesn't.



Personally I play the PC version with a dual-dagger lethality assassin-bard that has balanced dex-cunning (for RP purposes) and I'm extremely happy (after patch to only fix daggers).

[Vardlure]

OctopusRush wrote...

Are el: Daggers, being Piercing weapons, are supposed to use a special Half/half formula where 50% of the damage comes from Dex and 50% from Str.

with the lethality talent, you use your cunning instead of strength correct?  Does this mean with lethality (currently) you gain a 1.0 modifier from cunning and 0.0 from dex?  I assume the "fixed" version would be .5 cunning and .5 dex.  That would mean we're actually overpowered WITH the lethality talent and assuming we pump cunning higher than Dex.  In other words, a high cunning rogue with lethality would actually see a damage decrease once they fix this.

If you are someone like me and pumped up cunning with lethality and the assassin kit 'exploit weakness' talent in mind, do these bonuses apply to swords or axes?  Do you still get backstab bonuses from exploit weakness using swords/axes?

I'm assuming that Lethality effects swords/axes properly for determing attack damage...  1.0 cunning instead of 1.0 strength

Rogue just got pretty confusing by reading this post :/  I guess all those Dex points are totally worthless (aside from prereqs) if you're using swords or axes  :/

[Dark_Storm]

Meh, no dex bonus to daggers, epic fail, time to uninstall this game and play pong.

[Setz69]

@Rikkles

Do you know what the exact number of defense and attack each point of dex gives? I can't seem to find it and am at work atm. But the way it seems, is if they fixed it you'd get more defense/attack at the cost of damage, since you'd never be able to get both cunning and dex up high enough. Your attack would be awesome, but you'd be hitting for half the damage you could be if they just leave it at cunning giving a full +1. And really with duelist or bard both have buffs for your attack and defense (Well duelist for defense). Theres only so high you need to get your attack before you can hit everything in the game frequently.

Edit : and just did another run through on assasin abilities. Exploit weakness also gives a bonus to backstab dmg based on cunning. So basically a cunning based rogue with fair dex, using coupe de grace + exploit weakness would own with momentum + dirty fighting. I think by fixing this for daggers you'd really nerf the dmg a dw dagger can do. As far as I've seen their to hit is actually pretty good and if not you can always compensate with dex and attack armor or if your noticing your missing more than you'd like, toss the next point on level up into dex. Aslong as your cunning is higher than your dex, your getting a better dmg bonus than you would be if it were split, and I don't see there ever being a need to have your dex as high or higher than your cunning.

Modifié par Setz69, 16 novembre 2009 - 11:46 .

[Skemte]

... Why they havn't released a REAL hot fix just to fix this certain part is beyond me.. I don't want a experimental patch that fixes something like bows only to makeit a obnoxious set back in the game where hordes of arches can mow down people.. Console gamers don't even get a choice in this either..

[Setz69]

Skemte wrote...

... Why they havn't released a REAL hot fix just to fix this certain part is beyond me.. I don't want a experimental patch that fixes something like bows only to makeit a obnoxious set back in the game where hordes of arches can mow down people.. Console gamers don't even get a choice in this either..

Because theres really no need to fix it? In all honesty you wouldn't get any boost to dmg from a dagger unless your dex was ABOVE your cunning, and even in that instance you would only see MAYBE a +10 increase in dmg if your dex was say 46 to 26 cunning. The amount of attack and defense you lose (if dex gives your .5 attk and .5 def iirc) would only be 10 attk and 10 defense from being at 46 cunning, 26 dex instead of 26 cunning, 46 dex.

Basically a fix would raise your attack and defense, but lower your damage.

[rikkles]

@Setz69, I was talking about a fixed game where dex did play a role. Of course in the current broken implementation (if you don't/can't use the fix), you are correct in that you must use a high cunning, just-enough dex rogue.

[Setz69]

rikkles wrote...

@Setz69, I was talking about a fixed game where dex did play a role. Of course in the current broken implementation (if you don't/can't use the fix), you are correct in that you must use a high cunning, just-enough dex rogue.

Thats not really what I was trying to get at. Im saying that WITH a fixed verson, where dex plays a role, you end up trading dmg for dex. With how it currently is I can leave my dex at 26, get my cunning up to, wherever, say 36, and get a full 36 dmg boost. If they fixed it, cunning would only contribute .5 and dex would contribute .5. Therefore you'd need to get BOTH to 36 to get the same dmg boost.

We all know theres only so many stat points you can get, so you'll never get BOTH cunning and dex as high as you could get just cunning. Therefore if you do a fix and make cunning and dex give .5 each, than you'll be losing out on dmg for attk and defense. Honestly if you run the numbers the fix would be just a minor change its not even funny.

Say the level cap is 22. Thats what my toon got to doing all the side quests. As an elf rogue I get 14 cunning and 14 dex to start. Get 3 attribute points a level. at 22 levels thats 66 points.

Now currently, I would only need to spend 12 of those points to get dex to 26. Leaving me 54 to dump in cunning (Pretending we're only dumping them in cunning and dex atm) That gives me 26 dex and 68 cunning. Giving me a +68 boost to dmg (This is only for example, i'd probably be tossing some into willpower and more into dex aswell, but just follow along) 26 defense, and 13 attack. Now, if you add a fix, your cunning would only give you .5 and dex .5. So to get full advantage of dmg, you'd need your dex and cunning to be the same.

with 66 points to spend and 14 to start, both your dex and cunning are at 47. This would give you only a 47 boost to dmg, instead of a 68. Losing you 20 dmg. You would gain 47 defense and 23.5 attack with the bonus to dex.

Now the reason this patch is unneccesary is because if you have your cunning and dex both at 47 atm (without a fix), you get same results. Your dmg is increased by 47 (all from cunning) and defense and attack are increased by 47 and 23.5

The fix would only make a diffrence if your rogue favored dex over cunning, say 68 in dex and 26 in cunning. Currently you'd only get 26 dmg . With a fix you'd only get 47 dmg. Still 20 points less than a full cunning build the way it currently is with a big boost to defense and attack.  With the duelist +attk +def buff, assasins exploit weakness based off cunning, and bards song based off cunning, the extra attk and defense seems wasted, and you get a big drop in damage with exploit weakness, and attack and dmg buff from couragoues song. The way it is now I can get way more damage with favoring cunning, than I could with fixing dex and favoring dex.

Amidst this wall of text I didn't mean to create Im trying to say that the diffrence really is minimal unless your going to extremes. Anyone with a fairly balanced cunning and dex score isn't going to notice a fix even if one was applied. Chances are you'd end up with 30 dex, 45ish cunning, and the rest into str (enough to use all the leather armors) willpower and con. giving you 45 dmg boost, 30 defense, 15 attack. Where a fix with dex over cunning (dex at 45, cunning at 30, both contributing .5) would give you 45 defense, 22.5 attack, and 37.5 dmg. Really isn't much of a diffrence.

How people even figured out this wasn't working surprises the hell out of me.

Modifié par Setz69, 17 novembre 2009 - 11:21 .

[Mercurybath]

I have to say, I have really lost some respect for Bioware after playing this game. It's a good game, but I dished out 70 bucks and will probably have to dish out another 30 in DLC (not to mention I have to wait for it to come out--if it comes out) just to play a decent dagger rogue, which has always been my class of choice in RPG's. How they could overlook such a glaring design flaw I don't know, but it is dissapointing to say the least.



Also, I have been searching threads for the last 2 hours just trying to figure out if the dexterity bug applies to longbows. I figured if I can't play my dagger rogue, I will make a stealthy archer rogue. But ALL I have found is contradicting answers and speculation. No clarifcation by a poster with authority. 2 hours looking for an answer to a simple question *do longbows get gimped by the dex bug as well as daggers??** and the only thing my search has given me is a headache. This is pathetic Bioware.

[rpgplayer1]

Only daggers and crossbows are bugged, as such. Daggers give only bonus damage from strength, instead 50% strength, 50% dexterity. And crossbows don't get bonus from dexterity at all, while they should.

Modifié par rpgplayer1, 19 novembre 2009 - 10:24 .

[rikkles]

Setz69:

Ok what you're saying is very clear. I guess I was coming at it from my own character build, which was heavy on dexterity before going the assassin route.

Having a .5/.5 split gives you in the mid-game a more balanced rogue. By the end game, as you said you can pretty much do what you want irrespective of the patch, but in levels say 5-14 it's worth it. Don't you think?

[Auraad]

- Archangel - wrote...

C. Ouimet wrote...

Rogues gain an ability in the mid-end game that allows them to dual wield main hand weapons. This ability eliminates the need to use the smaller, off handed daggers near the end of the game.

That's kinda not the point....if people want to Role play a dagger wielding rogue....a common archetype, you're saying they will be ineffective.

Look at it the DA:O way: some characters ("builds") are *meant* to fail ... it's like in real world.

[Heals.like.Jesus]

Way I see it with the hotfix right now you may pump full dex on rogue, and get DMG DEF and ATTACK in 1 fel swoop. My momentium dagger rogue backstabs the **** outta revenants in 15 seconds if left alone on nightmare, in addition to being ner;ly impossible to hit with sky-high DEF and evasion.

[rikkles]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

Way I see it with the hotfix right now you may pump full dex on rogue, and get DMG DEF and ATTACK in 1 fel swoop. My momentium dagger rogue backstabs the **** outta revenants in 15 seconds if left alone on nightmare, in addition to being ner;ly impossible to hit with sky-high DEF and evasion.

No you don't get top DMG with full dex. You only get 1/2 the top DMG you would get pre-hotfix if you pumped it all into str or cun. That's the point. BTW a rogue would be über if it could convert all dex into DMG.
My rogue is similar to yours, but with a bit more cunning. With the assassin + bard stuff, it's pretty incredible already.
The point anyway is that at high level, with or without patch doesn't really matter. It's the mid-game where the hotfix helps.

[Heals.like.Jesus]

Why wouldnt it matter? If you have 86 dex, thats a pretty significant difference right there. Besides all of you forget that cunning DOES NOT give you attack. A Dex rogue is a balance of every stat with the perk of being impossible to hit physically. A cunning rogue direly struggles to hit his target.

[rpgplayer1]

Exempt if he is also a bard, and uses that song that boosts combat stats (bonus depending on Cunning). Not really a Str replacement, but is decent.

Modifié par rpgplayer1, 20 novembre 2009 - 09:53 .

[rikkles]

You forget the bard's song of courage that gives ATK+DEF+DMG bonus based on cunning. That's a huge deal for cunning-based rogues.

Then if you can also use Tainted Blade and Exploit Weakness, you get even more DMG based on cunning. So a super-high cunning bard/assassin, beyond getting the lockpick perk through the roof, gets a very decent ATK score and a significantly higher DMG output than a pure dex-based rogue. And therefore ultimately the actual DPS may well be higher.



And don't forget that if the DMG is high enough, you can boost it even higher with lacerate.



I might respec at some point and test that theory, but I'm pretty sure that with all those talents a cunning assassin/bard should run circles around a high-dex always weakly hitting rogue.



(if you don't use the hotfix, the cunning-based rogue will be significantly more powerful too)

[Heals.like.Jesus]

or you could simply pump dex, be untouchable, dmg moderately, hit often and use dueling stance for further increase in attack and def. Cunning doesnt cut it. You miss alot., and you get hit alot.

Modifié par Heals.like.Jesus, 20 novembre 2009 - 10:15 .

[seb__]

C. Ouimet wrote...

Rogues gain an ability in the mid-end game that allows them to dual wield main hand weapons. This ability eliminates the need to use the smaller, off handed daggers near the end of the game.

Thats not correct.
My second rogue is focussed on daggers, due to the heavy critchances (and armor penetration). More CUN means higher crits. I don't have numbers or formulas due to a missing combat log (oh noes, not again!), but it seems to me that rogues could be able to do more damage with daggers, high CUN and assassin spec than with more STR and swords.

[themaxzero]

Heals.like.Jesus wrote...

or you could simply pump dex, bere untouchable, dmg moderately, hit often and use dueling stance for further increase in attack and def. Cunning doesnt cut it. You miss alot., and you get hit alot.

I noticed that too. Rogues are squishy enough with low armour and being in melee. Take away defence as well and they are basically melee mages.

[Zenthar Aseth]

So.. what are people arguing about actually? Why not just pump DEX and CUN almost as much?

[ninfan1]

seems to me it cripples theorycraft more than actually playing. The very fact that almost 100% of my attacks are crit/backstabs, and they occur sorapidly...... If not for feign death/combat stealth I'd have been paste on the floor long ago.



Also, I love that people were having no problem at all with their rogue until they read a post saying they could be more powerful and all of a sudden "I've wasted 17 levels!!!!QQQQQQ" the way I see it if you've made it to level 17 and you were having a grand old time, your best defense is an argument of principles.... If you weren't having fun then you're some kind of mental midget for playing 17 levels of a game you don't enjoy...... that desperate to be on the bandwagon?

[rikkles]

hehehe. FWIW, I'm perfectly happy not only with my equal dex/cun fighter (with patch), but also with her using a bow when she has 0 ability to do so, without even the bow patch. When half the time she connects for 40+ damage, I think bows are quite fine without even needing a boost.

[MartinJHolm]

rikkles wrote...

hehehe. FWIW, I'm perfectly happy not only with my equal dex/cun fighter (with patch), but also with her using a bow when she has 0 ability to do so, without even the bow patch. When half the time she connects for 40+ damage, I think bows are quite fine without even needing a boost.

It isn't really a boost, it's a fix - they weren't using dex right, as far as I can tell this fix makes it similar to what most people are used to from NWN and such.

Also what a weapon connects with isn't really terribly important in itself, you have to hold it up against the activation time so while 40 might seem like a lot it really isn't since bows fire rather slowly.

[rabbitchannel]

Daggers maybe be bugged but can anyone explain why Chris Priestly dual wields daggers?



http://social.biowar...&game=dragonage



Dex > Will > Cunning > Con > Strength > Magic.



He probably knows what he's doing?