582 réponses à ce sujet

[john william]

Bioware's morality makes about as much sense here as the whole "destroy the council/save the council" dilemma at the end of ME1.  Which is to say none at all.  I actually resisted the urge to keep the collector base but I couldn't argue against Illusive Man's cold, hard logic.  There's no question that the galactic civilization is better off with the treasure trove of secrets that is the collector base.

At the end of WW2 it came to light that both the Germans and the Japanese conducted horrifying experiments on live human subjects and made certain breakthroughs because of it.  Would the allies have performed those same experiments.  Of course not.  Did the allies throw their research away?  Hell freaking naw!

[Kyero]

because REnegade pretty much means (Humans will domiate the universe)



and Paragon means (Universal peace)

[KainrycKarr]

Because TIM would obviously use it to gain human(well, Cerberus) dominance in the galaxy, in addition to fighting the reapers.



It's like buying a car; read the fine print.

[DirtyVagrant]

Reaper technology tends to lead to... indoctrination. Plus the Illusive Man will likely use the technology as a big stick to dominate the other races of the galaxy.

[InvaderErl]

Trying to use the Reapers backfires. It backfired on Saren and it backfired on those who boarded the Derelict Reaper.

That and Illusive Man admits he wants it for less than noble purposes.

Blow the damn thing to hell.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 01 février 2010 - 06:23 .

[furizon]

Been discussed here, but it's the renegade choice because it's the "quick easy" way to power,imo. And the reason most that destroyed it did so because all previous Reaper tech that got used (ie Citadel) ended up allowing them to control/predict the course of technology, and allowed them a backdoor when it was time to wipe the galaxy.

[john william]

Sounds like you guys are the ones indoctrinated!



Seriously, all Shepard has to do is whisper to the alliance or the council about it. Problem solved.



Also: it's not a reaper ship. It doesn't have the natural psychological attack to it.

[tausra]

I see it as this, Keeping the base may have the same indoctrination ability as a regular Reaper. It may have hives in the walls, it could be a trap like the Citadel. Keeping it means handling and dealing with Reaper Tech, which is usually a bad idea. Blowing it up may cost society the tech and abilities that it may hold but it also absolves the galaxy from risks unknowable.

It may not be a Reaper but it's very very closely tied to them.  No human has been alive inside of it long enough to tell if it doesn't have the indoctrination capabilities yet. It could have loud speakers attached to the biggest baddest Reaper in the fleet.

Modifié par tausra, 01 février 2010 - 06:27 .

[RAZZberree]

I think it's more of an ethical dilemma. You spend the entire game trying to prevent the Collectors from taking humans, you then get to the Collector base and find out what they're doing, turning humans into genetic past to build a hybrid/sapient organic/synthetic monstrosity. Your WW2 example was a good one to use, ethically, it's the bad choice because of the harm done to the experiments, viewed as monstrous and completely horrible. Of course, the results led to such great advancements, but at what cost?



Keeping the Collector base, in theory, would be similar, and to what extent would the Illusive Man go to advance humanity? That's the question, would he start harvesting his own people to create a creature that could wipe out the reapers? Would that creature then be turned on other races to establish human dominance? Again, at what cost is one willing to go for their results. That's how I see it.



I chose the paragon just because, morally and ethically, I'm against that, but I'm not an idiot. Keeping the base would have amazing advantages but...it cost too many lives of innocent people and my crew was killed there, in a way, what the hell was I fighting for? It's one of those kind of moments...for me. :| It was a really tough decision in the end for me though, because I did want to have an edge on the reapers...But...it just doesn't feel right.



But I totally see where your coming from on the issue.

[stillnotking]

The ME2 ending makes more sense from a Paragon/Renegade standpoint than the ME1 ending. A Paragon would destroy the base because "it's an abomination" (as the dialogue choice says), while a Renegade would try to use it to fight the Reapers. Then there's the fact that it comes down to siding with Cerberus or defying Cerberus, and for the entire game the Renegade option is to side with them.

[Harkmagic]

The Reapers have won time and again because Galactic civilization has developed around the Technology the Reapers left behind. If you base you war plan around that Collector Station, you are playing right into the hands of the Reapers because they know exactly what you will be throwing at them when they arrive.

[Frotality]

because logic is evil. you havent noticed that about conventional morality?

it is also the 'safer' option, keeping it invites cerberus to abuse it or lose control (as everyone who tried has), destroying it destroys a potential great weapon against the reapers, but also a potential great threat (and paragon is all about keeping people safe, right?)

right now im operating under the theory that saving it doesnt immeadiately mean shep would be trusting it to cerberus in ME3, that TIM isnt the only one who knows the art of deception.

[BlaiseVoltaire]

My main issue? I saw people get melted and funneled deeper into the station.



On a scale of 1 to "creeped the **** out and totally not alright with that" I'm squarely settled on the latter option.



That, and saving that facility, as many others have said, can't be a good thing. It isn't a reaper ship but it contains Reaper technology, and besides, I am NOT loyal to Cerberus. I'm loyal to the Alliance.



As a Spectre, I serve the Galactic Interest. In my book, that doesn't even necessarily include the council's will.



So when the Illusive Man tells me he wants to preserve a facility, I think...Why? Yes, it is a treasure trove of information, but will he inform the alliance? No. Will he inform the Council? Hell no.



These are the people who would need to know, but the Illusive Man would use that knowledge for his own ends.



That, and my Shepard summed it up quite nicely when he told off the Illusive Man: I intend to save the galaxy without selling humanity's soul.

[john william]

Harkmagic wrote...

The Reapers have won time and again because Galactic civilization has developed around the Technology the Reapers left behind. If you base you war plan around that Collector Station, you are playing right into the hands of the Reapers because they know exactly what you will be throwing at them when they arrive.

This is tech that the Reapers didn't intend to leave to others and thus would be useful against them.

[Lukertin]

john william wrote...

Bioware's morality makes about as much sense here as the whole "destroy the council/save the council" dilemma at the end of ME1.  Which is to say none at all.  I actually resisted the urge to keep the collector base but I couldn't argue against Illusive Man's cold, hard logic.  There's no question that the galactic civilization is better off with the treasure trove of secrets that is the collector base.

Yea, his cold hard logic has absolutely no problems.  TIM == man who can't, or doesn't want to, learn from his mistakes.  Send science team to lock down Reaper ship to take technology?  Utter failure.  Use Reaper technology to modify the Normandy?  Oops.  I can only imagine what disaster will befall whoever gets sent to study the Collector base.  Perhaps you will get a situation like in the movie Event Horizon.  TIM's logic is incredibly suspicious and nonsensical

At the end of WW2 it came to light that both the Germans and the Japanese conducted horrifying experiments on live human subjects and made certain breakthroughs because of it.  Would the allies have performed those same experiments.  Of course not.  Did the allies throw their research away?  Hell freaking naw!

They made certain breakthroughs?  Really?  How is injecting color into people's eyes in an attempt to change iris color a medical breakthrough when those people all ended up blind?  Or injecting salt water into a human while you drain out his blood to see what happens?  I'm really curious as to what kind of scientific understanding these experiments have brought to light, and how we all have benefited.

[jrubal1462]

I was going to pose this question because I thought I did ok, but when I got back to the ship everybody talked to me like I had just handed Hitler an atomic bomb. I probably would've given the tech to the council, if anybody asked my opinion, but it never came up. You've convinced me though: this is too much of a quick/easy way to power, especially if humans are keeping it all to themselves.



Fine, I'll go back and blow it up, but don't come crying to me when the reapers come back and all you have to defend yourselves with is a spider army.

[uberman409]

Frotality wrote...

because logic is evil. you havent noticed that about conventional morality?

it is also the 'safer' option, keeping it invites cerberus to abuse it or lose control (as everyone who tried has), destroying it destroys a potential great weapon against the reapers, but also a potential great threat (and paragon is all about keeping people safe, right?)

right now im operating under the theory that saving it doesnt immeadiately mean shep would be trusting it to cerberus in ME3, that TIM isnt the only one who knows the art of deception.

Logic isn't evil. It would be logical to keep the station. However, what the people in control would do with that station's tech could be evil, and TIM has stated that he would be a right bastard with it.

[Harkmagic]

john william wrote...
This is tech that the Reapers didn't intend to leave to others and thus would be useful against them.

Just because it isn't intended doesn't mean that it doesn't work to their advantage. They know that Tech intimatly, while humanity at best can experiment with it. Since the Reapers know what is on it they can prepare for it, and because of thier vast intellects prepare damned well.

Using Reaper Tech just makes us slaves to the Reapers, no differant than the Heretic Geth.

[Anacronian Stryx]

john william wrote...

Sounds like you guys are the ones indoctrinated!

Seriously, all Shepard has to do is whisper to the alliance or the council about it. Problem solved.

Also: it's not a reaper ship. It doesn't have the natural psychological attack to it.

Haha imagine this.. the alliance arrives at the great base - Admiral Hackett looks around suddenly a console goes 'bibs' followed by Harbingers voice "assuming control!"

[falloutgod13]

Anyone else feel like the MATRIX guys are going to be pissed off once they realize their melting of people idea and swooshing them through tubes was used by Bioware?

[ChyronBlue]

Thats why I love Bioware

[Monglor]

The reason it's the renegade choice is because you're working for Cerberus. Cerberus are a group with close to zero scruples who are, if not responsible for grotesque and horrible atrocities, are at least willing to hire people who carry them out if not properly supervised. We only have their word that they put the interests of humanity first, but that sort of overt patriotism/racism/nationalism has always been a hallmark of fascists and a cover for all manner of nefarious stuff.



Long and the short of it; bad people. Not to be trusted with the greatest chunk of alien technology ever captured intact.



If there was an option to get a Council fleet in there, or some Alliance ships, then it's a different ballgame but that's not doable (as much a logistical issue as anything else), so the choice is the fishy guys with the horrible past get the tech, or nobody does.



Also the big thing for me would be the indoctrination threat. Can't be too careful with anything Reaper tech related.

[john william]

Lukertin wrote...

They made certain breakthroughs?  Really?  How is injecting color into people's eyes in an attempt to change iris color a medical breakthrough when those people all ended up blind?  Or injecting salt water into a human while you drain out his blood to see what happens?  I'm really curious as to what kind of scientific understanding these experiments have brought to light, and how we all have benefited.

What the heck are you talking about?  Did I say those specific things were breakthroughs?  But if you must know, off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure that much of what we know about the effects of extreme cold on the human body is thanks to those ****s.

[Speakeasy13]

john william wrote...

Bioware's morality makes about as much sense here as the whole "destroy the council/save the council" dilemma at the end of ME1.  Which is to say none at all.  I actually resisted the urge to keep the collector base but I couldn't argue against Illusive Man's cold, hard logic.  There's no question that the galactic civilization is better off with the treasure trove of secrets that is the collector base.

At the end of WW2 it came to light that both the Germans and the Japanese conducted horrifying experiments on live human subjects and made certain breakthroughs because of it.  Would the allies have performed those same experiments.  Of course not.  Did the allies throw their research away?  Hell freaking naw!

Well the Japanese and German are HUMAN no? What makes you think the same spieces that commit the same horrid deeds could refrain from repeating them? I simply CANNOT entrust the fate of the universe to humanity. And that is that. The same way I didn't think the counsel was worth saving back in ME1, but I had to, because humanity is far worse. We don't deserve to be heading the counsel. And that is that.

[Nigawatts]

So you would be in favor of the rebels taking over the Death Star instead of destroying it?



You see there are certain things, that upset the balance of power so much, that they should never be allowed into the equation. The Collector Base, no matter who used it, for whatever reason, would bring more harm than good.



What would it teach us? I doubt the Reapers would leave a clue to their weakness on a ship made by a thrall race? We already have weapons stronger than the ship, the Thanix Cannon cut through the Collector Ship like a hot knife through butter. Anything we could gain from it is negligible when you take into account how much we could lose by keeping it.