582 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonny_Evil]

Nautica773 wrote...

First, I doubt Illusive Man is foolish enough to actually go to the Collector Base himself. He has a comfy chair, I would be very surprised if he ever left it. He has the resources and connections to create teams to go into the dangerous areas for him. Plus, going to the base himself would serve no purpose. He certainly can't analyse Reaper technology.

He wouldn't need to. Leaders tend to be interested in projects and like to see results, he could easily ask for a piece of tech sent for him to see and that could easily be capable of indoctrinating him. The IFF was thoroughly scanned, investigated and all safety measures used when installing it but was still a trap, no Reaper tech is safe.

Alternatively the researchers working there could get indoctrinated and arrange to get him in proximity to the technology, either by luring him there or taking it to him themselves. The Codex says that they like to indoctrinate people in positions of power.

When you get right down to it, you're gambling that someone is smarter than the Reapers. Given their utter dominance for millions, if not billions, of years, risking the possibility of Reaper infiltration into human society against the chance to jump a bit further down the lines they already encourage seems reckless.

*edit* Has anyone watched the film Species? Aliens send a message to earth with technical schematics, the first of which is a catalyst to make clean energy. This convinces people that all of it is safe, so they press on. Only to find that the next bit of technology creates a hybrid intended to destroy the species and colonise the planet with their own. Reapers are an order of magnitude above that kind of deviousness.

Modifié par Jonny_Evil, 01 février 2010 - 05:24 .

[Series5Ranger]

Harkmagic wrote...

john william wrote...
This is tech that the Reapers didn't intend to leave to others and thus would be useful against them.

Just because it isn't intended doesn't mean that it doesn't work to their advantage. They know that Tech intimatly, while humanity at best can experiment with it. Since the Reapers know what is on it they can prepare for it, and because of thier vast intellects prepare damned well.

Using Reaper Tech just makes us slaves to the Reapers, no differant than the Heretic Geth.

and even if we win using that Technology, will we BECOME them?

[Marlina]

Again, we've been using reaper tech since the moment we discovered prothean technology. ME relays are reaper tech. What's so wrong about using THIS reaper tech?

[Series5Ranger]

john william wrote...

I just always put forth the question: What would Jack Bauer do?

He'd have kept the base.

no no no You must think WWKD? (What would Kirk do?")

[TheKnave69]

Marlina wrote...

Again, we've been using reaper tech since the moment we discovered prothean technology. ME relays are reaper tech. What's so wrong about using THIS reaper tech?

Other than the fact that the Citadel (the central relay) was a massive honey-trap designed to be sprung once a civilization reached a zenith in technicological evolution?  Nothing I guess.

[aimlessgun]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

When you get right down to it, you're gambling that someone is smarter than the Reapers. Given their utter dominance for millions, if not billions, of years, risking the possibility of Reaper infiltration into human society against the chance to jump a bit further down the lines they already encourage seems reckless.

Well a lot of people saved the station on the assumption that you could turn it over to the galaxy and not TIM in particular, an option which was idiotically not written in. But the danger of luring in a high level person increases at that point. Goes back to indoctrination as magic or science, harder sci-fi vs space opera, long discussion earlier in thread.

[TheKnave69]

Series5Ranger wrote...

john william wrote...

I just always put forth the question: What would Jack Bauer do?

He'd have kept the base.

no no no You must think WWKD? (What would Kirk do?")

I prefer WWSD (What would Sheridan do?)  The answer, of course, is: Nukes.  Lots of nukes.

[Jonny_Evil]

Marlina wrote...

Again, we've been using reaper tech since the moment we discovered prothean technology. ME relays are reaper tech. What's so wrong about using THIS reaper tech?

Because they want us to use Reaper tech, all of it is a trap. That's like a cow saying "Well, we've been doing what humans tell us all our lives, what's so wrong with sauntering up to this guy with a strange thing in his hand?"

Nobody in the game thinks fiddling with it is a good idea except TIM. The Geth reject it out of hand, Vigil didn't say they need to be fought, not understood because he was a bigot, it was because attempting to understand them makes you vulnerable to them. This isn't a derelict ship from some long dead race, this is technology from a race built around using technological manipulation to destroy people. How can you not see it's a bad idea?

[Marlina]

TheKnave69 wrote...

Other than the fact that the Citadel (the central relay) was a massive honey-trap designed to be sprung once a civilization reached a zenith in technicological evolution?  Nothing I guess.

I didn't ask what bad using reaper tech in the past has done. By "THIS reaper tech", I'm talking about the collector's base.

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Because they want us to use Reaper tech, all of it is a trap. That's like a cow saying "Well, we've been doing what humans tell us all our lives, what's so wrong with sauntering up to this guy with a strange thing in his hand?"

Nobody in the game thinks fiddling with it is a good idea except TIM. The Geth reject it out of hand, Vigil didn't say they need to be fought, not understood because he was a bigot, it was because attempting to understand them makes you vulnerable to them. This isn't a derelict ship from some long dead race, this is technology from a race built around using technological manipulation to destroy people. How can you not see it's a bad idea?

So understanding your enemy is detrimental to fighting them? Sorry, I don't quite see the logic in that. 
The Reapers never intended us to find the collector's base. 
Furthermore, we've been using reaper tech for ages without becoming indoctrinated. Without reaper tech, we would never be able to beat Sovereign back.

Would you rather have us go back to fighting with sticks and stones against the Reaper menace? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

It is risky there is no doubt, but it's worth the risk. War is all about risk. If I was in the same situation and with the same knowldge (basically 0 knowldge about the reapers), I would always preserve the station.

[Jonny_Evil]

@Marlina

Without Reaper tech we'd never be in the position to be harvested. You're getting back to assuming that you're smarter than they are, which doesn't fit any of the evidence whatsoever. Ignore that base, concentrate on developing alternate methods of fighting and travel, things they've never seen before and you've got a chance to beat them. Use the base, and you've just got more weapons they've already seen and expose yourself to their influence.

They depend on you using their technology, using more on the unwarranted assumption that they never wanted you to have it doesn't make sense.

Modifié par Jonny_Evil, 01 février 2010 - 05:57 .

[Nautica773]

Jonny_Evil wrote...
He wouldn't need to. Leaders tend to be interested in projects and like to see results, he could easily ask for a piece of tech sent for him to see and that could easily be capable of indoctrinating him. The IFF was thoroughly scanned, investigated and all safety measures used when installing it but was still a trap, no Reaper tech is safe.

Where would you send it? I don't think you'll find his postal address in the yellow pages. And what good would him physically looking at the tech do? This man sits behind screens all day, I doubt that would change with the Collector base.

Alternatively the researchers working there could get indoctrinated and arrange to get him in proximity to the technology, either by luring him there or taking it to him themselves. The Codex says that they like to indoctrinate people in positions of power.

He'd send a lieutenant like Miranda to look at it on his behalf. The Illusive Man is elusive, he didn't get that way by making house calls. 

When you get right down to it, you're gambling that someone is smarter than the Reapers. Given their utter dominance for millions, if not billions, of years, risking the possibility of Reaper infiltration into human society against the chance to jump a bit further down the lines they already encourage seems reckless.

There's another interesting observation. Shepard has been in contact with Reapers on numerous occasions. He's touched their minds, explored their ships and tangoed with their generals. Perhaps Shepard has started becoming indoctrinated? Or, perhaps it takes a weak mind and prolonged exposure to get the brain woosies, two things that the Illusive Man is unlikely to fall for.
No, the concern isn't over the Reapers indoctrinating the Illusive Man. The concern is whether you trust the Illusive Man enough to give him sole access to advanced Reaper technology.
Not that it really matters, the Reapers are more a symptom than cause themselves. The real concern should be on who created the Reapers and why. That's probably where all the answers on how to defeat them lies. Either that or lots of guns.

Modifié par Nautica773, 01 février 2010 - 06:04 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jonny_Evil wrote...
Ignore that base, concentrate on developing alternate methods of fighting and travel, things they've never seen before and you've got a chance to beat them.

You are missing an important variable. Time. Do we have the time to research and create a new technology while everything we have is based on Reaper tech? What you are asking is for everyoen to start at level 0 basically.
 
And yes what Marlina said makes perfect sense. Unlocking technology that they never intended for us to know, like how to create a reaper, will provide us with an element of surprise. And even if it doesn't, it  will still provide knowledge on what the reapers are and how they function.
by studying them, we makew sure that they at least don't surprise us. That's the minimum benefit. Unlocking new Reaper tech that we were never supposed to know is also a potential benefit

[Fulgrim88]

aimlessgun wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

When you get right down to it, you're gambling that someone is smarter than the Reapers. Given their utter dominance for millions, if not billions, of years, risking the possibility of Reaper infiltration into human society against the chance to jump a bit further down the lines they already encourage seems reckless.

Well a lot of people saved the station on the assumption that you could turn it over to the galaxy and not TIM in particular, an option which was idiotically not written in. But the danger of luring in a high level person increases at that point. Goes back to indoctrination as magic or science, harder sci-fi vs space opera, long discussion earlier in thread.

This is what bothers me the most. The ME story doesn't support hard logic. With making hard choices, you just end up being the ***hole, while achieving nothing more than your typical goody two shoes would have.

Look at the ending of ME1: You're not given the choice between Humanity and the Alien Council, but between loosing a single battleship and loosing the whole battle, by not defeating Sovereign in time.
Of course you, as the player, might see the possible outcome, but from Shepards (roleplaying and military) point of view, the Renegade decision is the only viable option.
Sadly, the game doesn't reflect this choice. Wether you focus the whole fleets fire on Sovereign or not, theres just no difference. In a real universe, the consequences of the paragon choice would have been severe, with loss of the Citadel Tower at the least. But as this game is geared for heroism, it doesn't happen. By making the "right" choice, you're doomed to make the wrong one.

Same goes for the ending of ME2. I would love to see a sequel where humanity and their meager technology get totally steamrolled by the Reapers, because they didn't salvage the Collector-Base, gaining a quantum leap in technology while they still could.
But it won't happen. They'll beat the Reaper fleet to dust with what crappy tech they possess, while the Collectors-Base will be nothing more than an asset for TIM.

I can somewhat live with it by imagining an alternate, more severe outcome of the paragon choice, making my Renegade Shep the only one aware of the "big picture". However, it's still not fair that the game is geared for zero punishment of easy heroism

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 01 février 2010 - 06:12 .

[Jonny_Evil]

Nautica773 wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...
He wouldn't need to. Leaders tend to be interested in projects and like to see results, he could easily ask for a piece of tech sent for him to see and that could easily be capable of indoctrinating him. The IFF was thoroughly scanned, investigated and all safety measures used when installing it but was still a trap, no Reaper tech is safe.

Where would you send it? I don't think you'll find his postal address in the yellow pages. And what good would him physically looking at the tech do? This man sits behind screens all day, I doubt that would change with the Collector base.

Alternatively the researchers working there could get indoctrinated and arrange to get him in proximity to the technology, either by luring him there or taking it to him themselves. The Codex says that they like to indoctrinate people in positions of power.

He'd send a lieutenant like Miranda to look at it on his behalf. The Illusive Man is elusive, he didn't get that way by making house calls. 

When you get right down to it, you're gambling that someone is smarter than the Reapers. Given their utter dominance for millions, if not billions, of years, risking the possibility of Reaper infiltration into human society against the chance to jump a bit further down the lines they already encourage seems reckless.

There's another interesting observation. Shepard has been in contact with Reaper's on numerous occasions. He's touched their minds, explored their ships and tangoed with their generals. Perhaps Shepard has started becoming indoctrinated? Or, perhaps it takes a weak mind and prolonged exposure to get the brain woosies, two things that the Illusive Man is unlikely to fall for.
No, the concern isn't over the Reaper's indoctrinating the Illusive Man. The concern is whether you trust the Illusive Man enough to give him sole access to advanced Reaper technology.
Not that it really matters, the Reapers are a distraction themselves. The real concern should be on who created the Reapers and why. That's probably where all the answers on how to defeat them lies. Either that or lots of guns.

For the first point, I'll quote from Serenity: "Key members of parliament have personally viewed this subject"

There's no reason to do a lot of things, but people tend to like being in physical contact with stuff rather than viewing it over a monitor. He could easily want something totally innocent looking to see himself that turns out not to be.

Secondly, if Miranda came into contact with it and became indoctrinated she'd then pass it on to him.

It's not all husks and crazy salarians. If they're patient and subtle they can whisper in people's minds and make them do things with nobody being the wiser, not even the indoctrinated individual. Says so in the codex.

It's an interesting thought about Shepard. It's most likely because he didn't spend more than a couple of hours in contact with Sovereign or on the derelict reaper or the Collector base.

That's the minimum benefit. Unlocking new Reaper tech that we were never supposed to know is also a potential benefit

Again, you don't know that. You're still assuming that you're smarter than them.

Modifié par Jonny_Evil, 01 février 2010 - 06:12 .

[kennyme2]

Harkmagic wrote...

The Reapers have won time and again because Galactic civilization has developed around the Technology the Reapers left behind. If you base you war plan around that Collector Station, you are playing right into the hands of the Reapers because they know exactly what you will be throwing at them when they arrive.

QFT

[Marlina]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

This is what bothers me the most. The ME story doesn't support hard logic. With making hard choices, you just end up being the ***hole, while achieving nothing more than your typical goody two shoes would have.

Look at the ending of ME1: You're not given the choice between Humanity and the Alien Council, but between loosing a single battleship and loosing the whole battle, by not defeating Sovereign in time.
Of course you, as the player, might see the possible outcome, but from Shepards (roleplaying and military) point of view, the Renegade decision is the only viable option.
Sadly, the game doesn't reflect this choice. Wether you focus the whole fleets fire on Sovereign or not, theres just no difference. In a real universe, the consequences of the paragon choice would have been severe, with loss of the Citadel Tower at the least. But as this game is geared for heroism, it doesn't happen. By making the "right" choice, you're doomed to make the wrong one.

Same goes for the ending of ME2. I would love to see a sequel where humanity and their meager technology get totally steamrolled by the Reapers, because they didn't salvage the Collector-Base, gaining a quantum leap in technology while they still could.
But it won't happen. They'll beat the Reaper fleet to dust with what crappy tech they possess, while the Collectors-Base will be nothing more than an asset for TIM.

I can somewhat live with it by imagining an alternate, more severe outcome of the paragon choice, making my Renegade Shep the only one aware of the "big picture". However, it's still not fair that the game is geared for zero punishment of easy heroism

Completely agree. :happy:
I guess it makes sense, since you can't just flash the GAME OVER screen whenever you make a "wrong" choice, but it does lessen the impact. I mean, I still have people arguing for saving the council because "lol, you can save both anyway" (benefit of hindsight)

[0Gabe0]

because the place was an abomination....

[Marlina]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

@Marlina

Without Reaper tech we'd never be in the position to be harvested. You're getting back to assuming that you're smarter than they are, which doesn't fit any of the evidence whatsoever. Ignore that base, concentrate on developing alternate methods of fighting and travel, things they've never seen before and you've got a chance to beat them. Use the base, and you've just got more weapons they've already seen and expose yourself to their influence.

They depend on you using their technology, using more on the unwarranted assumption that they never wanted you to have it doesn't make sense.

You're assuming they're smarter than we are. That's a defeatist position. Why not just lay down and die when they're oh-so obviously smarter than us?

We may not have the time to develop other kinds of technology. Furthermore, as I've said a thousand times before in this thread, we don't necessarily need to use reaper tech, but it doesn't hurt to UNDERSTAND it. Best course of action, combining both our views: Spare the base, develop entirely NEW tech, designed to take down whatever tech you found in the base. 

[Inverness Moon]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

TIM has proven that he can get things done, I gave him the base because it is better than destroying the base and hoping we find some other way to destroy an army of reapers. I also don't think he is stupid, steps will be taken to ensure that indoctrination does not happen again.

Also I think I mentioned this before, but it is a collector base, not a derelict reaper. I believe it is incorrect to assume that people can become indoctrination by being on the collector base for long periods of time.

I don't think the Illusive Man is stupid, I think he's extremely intelligent and cunning. The question that must be asked, however, is this: Is he more intelligent and more cunning than an ancient AI who has been conquering and manipulating civilisations for millions of years? You're taking one hell of a risk on that gamble, all it would take would be his exposure to an innocuous piece of technology that has indoctrination capability embedded and Cerberus turns to the Reapers.

As to the presence of indoctrination technology on the Collector base, Harbinger was using it to control the Collectors, so there must be some. Either way it relies on an assumption, only your way disaster strikes if your assumption is wrong, it doesn't if mine is wrong.

You don't get anywhere in life by not taking risks. Also, indoctrination is not immediate, it is a subtle thing that takes time to happen. Methinks Cerebrus would learn from the incident at the derelict reaper on how to detect such things. Also many are assuming just any piece of technology is capable of indoctrination when we have no reason to believe anything but being within a reaper itself leads to indoctrination.

As for Harbinger using indoctrination to control the collectors, that is a pretty big assumption. I think it was more likely that the collectors were designed to follow the collector general, which was posesed by Harbinger, not using indoctrination.

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

If you knew you were going to go to war against a power with atomic weapons and you found advanced schematics. Would you destroy those and hope you can match that power some other way, or would you use that stuff to arm yourself with the same weapons?

If I was fighting an enemy notorious for manipulation, misdirection and technological traps then yes I would destroy them. There would be no way of knowing the validity of the technology and no way to be sure that it's not got some subtle flaw in the design that will cause it to prematurely detonate and take me out. If I destroy the schematics, then I fight the best I can and hope to win. If I don't, then I'll either fight on a slightly more level playing field or I'll be totally destroyed and lose the war. In the game of chance, the numbers just  don't add up.

Studying the technology and reverse engineering it is how we would know if it is safe to use. I doubt TIM would use it as it is, which is naturally dangerous. Everyone is making some pretty big assumptions about how dangerous collector technology is in relation to reaper technology. Are they even the same thing?

These are questions that can be answered by studying the collector base, it is a risk, but a necessary one in my opinion when you're up against a threat like the reapers. Idealists would prefer to blow up the base and hope everything goes okay in the end.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 01 février 2010 - 06:22 .

[AlphaJarmel]

kennyme2 wrote...

Harkmagic wrote...

The Reapers have won time and again because Galactic civilization has developed around the Technology the Reapers left behind. If you base you war plan around that Collector Station, you are playing right into the hands of the Reapers because they know exactly what you will be throwing at them when they arrive.

QFT

As opposed to not having any technology that can go against the Reapers. 

Also Kirk would have slept with the Collector General(who in reality is a hot alien babe) and convinced her of her wrong ways.

[Inverness Moon]

Harkmagic wrote...

The Reapers have won time and again because Galactic civilization has developed around the Technology the
Reapers left behind. If you base you war plan around that Collector Station, you are playing right into the hands of the Reapers because they know exactly what you will be throwing at them when they arrive.

It's not as simple as you make it seem. The reapers won because of the way they designed the relay network and the citadel to be a trap. Studying reaper technology to create weapons equal or greater than theres, and to possibly counteract their control of the relay network will not gaurantee their victory.

You're also making the assumption that what we throw at them would be directly based on the collector technology and not based on concepts gained from studying it.

luet1991 wrote...

john william wrote...

This is tech that the Reapers didn't intend to leave to others and thus would be useful against them.

We don't know that, and Harbinger's words at the end ("This changes nothing. You face an enemy infinitely your greater.") only speak volumes against the logic you just spilled.

You'd take Harbinger's word for it?

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 01 février 2010 - 06:36 .

[Fulgrim88]

Marlina wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

@Marlina

Without Reaper tech we'd never be in the position to be harvested. You're getting back to assuming that you're smarter than they are, which doesn't fit any of the evidence whatsoever. Ignore that base, concentrate on developing alternate methods of fighting and travel, things they've never seen before and you've got a chance to beat them. Use the base, and you've just got more weapons they've already seen and expose yourself to their influence.

They depend on you using their technology, using more on the unwarranted assumption that they never wanted you to have it doesn't make sense.

You're assuming they're smarter than we are. That's a defeatist position. Why not just lay down and die when they're oh-so obviously smarter than us?

We may not have the time to develop other kinds of technology. Furthermore, as I've said a thousand times before in this thread, we don't necessarily need to use reaper tech, but it doesn't hurt to UNDERSTAND it. Best course of action, combining both our views: Spare the base, develop entirely NEW tech, designed to take down whatever tech you found in the base. 

This. Knowing your enemy is the means by which to defeat him. This is especially true given the almost zero knowledge of reaper technology to date. Not even the remains of sovereign gave much insight

We also shouldn't forget that we spend half the main plot discovering the mind-controlling capabilities of Reaper technology. Given this information, whoever will explore the station will hardly be unaware.
Additionaly, a working base would serve as hard proof for the existance of the Reaper threat, possibly ending the foolishly oblivious behaviour of the council.
With all evidence blown to hell, they might as well continue with turning a blind eye on the whole matter, thus being even less prepared when the Reaper fleet arrives

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 01 février 2010 - 06:50 .

[Drak41n]

Cerebus isn't nice, and they do amoral and immoral things to achieve their ends.  Probably don't want to give them a station the liquifies humans to build super advance tech.

Anyway - remember Sovereign's statement from the first ME?  Part of the problem is that all the races are dependant upon sovereign's technology for their own - it allows them to develop in ways that the reapers want.

[AlphaJarmel]

Drak41n wrote...

Cerebus isn't nice, and they do amoral and immoral things to achieve their ends.  Probably don't want to give them a station the liquifies humans to build super advance tech.

Anyway - remember Sovereign's statement from the first ME?  Part of the problem is that all the races are dependant upon sovereign's technology for their own - it allows them to develop in ways that the reapers want.

Only problem is that nobody expected Shepard to actually take over the base.  The Reapers sure weren't expecting it.  The Reapers allowed the Citadel and other stuff to be found, they obviously didn't want the Collector base to be found though given the extremes they went to hiding it.