582 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Drak41n wrote...

Cerebus isn't nice, and they do amoral and immoral things to achieve their ends.  Probably don't want to give them a station the liquifies humans to build super advance tech.

Anyway - remember Sovereign's statement from the first ME?  Part of the problem is that all the races are dependant upon sovereign's technology for their own - it allows them to develop in ways that the reapers want.

The reapers want us to fall into the trap of using the citadel and mass relays and depending on them. We prevented them from triggering that trap. Sovereign's statement doesn't mean that everything is a trap.

I can't logically see how studying reaper technology to create weapons capable of destroying them is falling into a trap.

[ODST 5723]

john william wrote...

I just always put forth the question: What would Jack Bauer do?

He'd have kept the base.

Jack Bauer wouldn't have kept the base.  He'd have executed it when he was sure that no one else was watching.

[siltsonata]

A lot of people are hung up on being condemned for picking the "wrong" decision. I play a fairly paragon character, but I've always seen renegade as not being "wrong" or evil: Just, as someone already said, a more "ends justify the means" path.



So what if you let the council die? Or kept the Collector ship? I blew the place to hell and gone because it was totally @#$#d up, and I'd made up my mind to get rid of that thing before the problem was even presented to me, but I can see the logic in keeping it.



Honestly, the canon in these games is "Shepard saves the galaxy." How you do that is up to you. Being butthurt about being called "renegade" seems silly to me. They're your choices. Stick with 'em, if you think they're right.

[Gill Kaiser]

Even if the Collector Base helps TIM develop technology to fight the Reapers, do you really trust him not to abuse it? OK, now he's concerned about the Reaper threat, but what about if they're defeated? You'd have handed the galaxy to a despot who cares only for his own species and is completely ruthless.

I think there's a better way. Bootstrapping your tech from a human-liquidating plant with the help of a borderline terrorist organisation can't be the only way to fight the Reapers. My Shepard believes that if the sentient races of the Milky Way were to unify they might have a shot against the Reapers, especially as Shepard himself would no doubt be on the case.

[aimlessgun]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Even if the Collector Base helps TIM develop technology to fight the Reapers, do you really trust him not to abuse it? OK, now he's concerned about the Reaper threat, but what about if they're defeated? You'd have handed the galaxy to a despot who cares only for his own species and is completely ruthless.
I think there's a better way. Bootstrapping your tech from a human-liquidating plant with the help of a borderline terrorist organisation can't be the only way to fight the Reapers. My Shepard believes that if the sentient races of the Milky Way were to unify they might have a shot against the Reapers, especially as Shepard himself would no doubt be on the case.

That's what I thought too, and thats EXACTLY why I KEPT the base. Because it's more proof of the reapers. Fly Galactic News out there, show EVERYONE. Get everyone unified and convinced this threat is real. Alliance military will get the tech. Council military will get the tech. etc.

But then it's like lolno you magically can't tell anyone about it.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 01 février 2010 - 07:11 .

[RavenholmeCP42]

We don't know that you cannot tell anyone about it, and you certainly gathered and downloaded a lot of proof.

However, TIM would abuse the power of the technology, no question. The man is evil, forget his crap about wanting a strong humanity, he'd burn the entire human race if it'd increase HIS power. He's a raging, power mad xenophobe.

Edit:

Plus, the Reaper embryo may have been damaged to a state of inoperability, but a situation similar to what happened on the dead reaper in Hawking Eta would have inevitably occurred. You'd be perpetuating the problem, not eradicating it, which you need to do with the Reaper swarm en route and gaining fast.

Modifié par RavenholmeCP42, 01 février 2010 - 07:18 .

[aimlessgun]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Because they want us to use Reaper tech, all of it is a trap. That's like a cow saying "Well, we've been doing what humans tell us all our lives, what's so wrong with sauntering up to this guy with a strange thing in his hand?"

Nobody in the game thinks fiddling with it is a good idea except TIM. The Geth reject it out of hand, Vigil didn't say they need to be fought, not understood because he was a bigot, it was because attempting to understand them makes you vulnerable to them. This isn't a derelict ship from some long dead race, this is technology from a race built around using technological manipulation to destroy people. How can you not see it's a bad idea?

First: I think after you stop the Citadel invasion, all bets are off on Reaper plans. Nobody ever did that to them before, they are now in freelance mode. Assuming that all of this is part of their grand plan is ludicrous.

Second, I'm going to bring up an analogy to try to shed some light on the "Use of reaper tech is bad" idea.

That analogy is Native Americans vs. the white man. We are the Indians in this case, reapers the advanced white man. And there were both pros and cons for the indians using white stuff.

Cons: well, diseased blankets and alchohol are the biggest ones probably. Guess you could compare this to indoctrination: something that kills silently and in ways we don't understand. However, the indians didn't have formal scientific training, we do.

Pros: the most successful native american efforts vs the white man used WHITE TECHNOLOGY. They didn't stick to their own indian ways, they picked up white tech and many successes were from beating the white man with his own tools. Horses = white technology, there were no horses in the Americas before the white man arrived. Guns too obviously.

The indians ultimately lost, due to too many disadvantages to overcome. But anways some uses of white things were very detrimental, some were very useful. Using the reaper ship is not without risk, and probably not without detrimental effects. But I am confident in our ability to get more benefits out of it than losses.

[Inverness Moon]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Even if the Collector Base helps TIM develop technology to fight the Reapers, do you really trust him not to abuse it? OK, now he's concerned about the Reaper threat, but what about if they're defeated? You'd have handed the galaxy to a despot who cares only for his own species and is completely ruthless.

I think there's a better way. Bootstrapping your tech from a human-liquidating plant with the help of a borderline terrorist organisation can't be the only way to fight the Reapers. My Shepard believes that if the sentient races of the Milky Way were to unify they might have a shot against the Reapers, especially as Shepard himself would no doubt be on the case.

The reaper threat is too import to worry about what happens afterwards with Cerberus. We're trying to stop a cycle that has been going on for hundrds of millions of years. We should get our priorities straight. Discarding possible advantages because of idealism is extremely risky, more risky than attempting to study the collector technology in my opinion.

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

We don't know that you cannot tell anyone about it, and you certainly gathered and downloaded a lot of proof.

However, TIM would abuse the power of the technology, no question. The man is evil, forget his crap about wanting a strong humanity, he'd burn the entire human race if it'd increase HIS power. He's a raging, power mad xenophobe.

I think you're exaggering, heavily. I don't think BioWare would create such a one-dimensional character and then make him an important part of the story.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 01 février 2010 - 07:24 .

[aimlessgun]

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

We don't know that you cannot tell anyone about it, and you certainly gathered and downloaded a lot of proof.

However, TIM would abuse the power of the technology, no question. The man is evil, forget his crap about wanting a strong humanity, he'd burn the entire human race if it'd increase HIS power. He's a raging, power mad xenophobe.

Edit:

Plus, the Reaper embryo may have been damaged to a state of inoperability, but a situation similar to what happened on the dead reaper in Hawking Eta would have inevitably occurred. You'd be perpetuating the problem, not eradicating it, which you need to do with the Reaper swarm en route and gaining fast.

A big point of unresolvable difference in this thread is one side assuming that indoctrination can be scientifically studied and prevented, the other side assuming it is unstoppable magic.

As for TIM abusing the tech, sure, he gets some data I guess. But who gets actual access to the site, that's up in the air.

I guess I am assuming you can tell nobody, but that's kind of how your crew acts to you after the mission. Plus I went to talk to Anderson afterwards and his dialogue didn't change, but that could just be something they didn't have time for I guess?

[aimlessgun]

[quote]Inverness Moon wrote...

However, TIM would abuse the power of the technology, no question. The man is evil, forget his crap about wanting a strong humanity, he'd burn the entire human race if it'd increase HIS power. He's a raging, power mad xenophobe.[/quote]I think you're exaggering, heavily. I don't think BioWare would create such a one-dimensional character and then make him an important part of the story.
[/quote]

This is also a good point. I viewed TIM as someone who really does care about the fate of humanity, even if he has a big ego. He's a tireless worker and a valuable asset in this fight. I felt that he wouldn't betray me utterly until it was clear we had won the war, at which point both of us would spring our complex and multilayered betrayal plans into action

[Inverness Moon]

aimlessgun wrote...

This is also a good point. I viewed TIM as someone who really does care about the fate of humanity, even if he has a big ego. He's a tireless worker and a valuable asset in this fight. I felt that he wouldn't betray me utterly until it was clear we had won the war, at which point both of us would spring our complex and multilayered betrayal plans into action

Quote failure.

As for betrayal plans, see Thirty Xanatos Pileup.

[Fulgrim88]

aimlessgun wrote...

RavenholmeCP42 wrote...

We don't know that you cannot tell anyone about it, and you certainly gathered and downloaded a lot of proof.

However, TIM would abuse the power of the technology, no question. The man is evil, forget his crap about wanting a strong humanity, he'd burn the entire human race if it'd increase HIS power. He's a raging, power mad xenophobe.

Edit:

Plus, the Reaper embryo may have been damaged to a state of inoperability, but a situation similar to what happened on the dead reaper in Hawking Eta would have inevitably occurred. You'd be perpetuating the problem, not eradicating it, which you need to do with the Reaper swarm en route and gaining fast.

A big point of unresolvable difference in this thread is one side assuming that indoctrination can be scientifically studied and prevented, the other side assuming it is unstoppable magic.

As for TIM abusing the tech, sure, he gets some data I guess. But who gets actual access to the site, that's up in the air.

I guess I am assuming you can tell nobody, but that's kind of how your crew acts to you after the mission. Plus I went to talk to Anderson afterwards and his dialogue didn't change, but that could just be something they didn't have time for I guess?

To be honest, I'd be pretty pissed if ME3 acts like you where magically inapt to tell anyone. It was bad enough to be reduced to contempt at best, regarding Cerberus in the course of the game.

Theres this one dialogue with TIM at the end, where Shepard dares him not to hide any vital info from the rest of the Universe. While this sounds good insofar that they are aware of Shepards intentions (to tell everyone), it also sounds like TIM has gained exclusive access to the information, being easily able to hide most of it (or Shepard wouldn't need to intimidate him)

[Giantmoth]

Yeah I was a bit dissapointed. I played Paragon in ME1, but I chose to save the galaxy rather than save the council. Now humans are mostly in charge and half the galaxy hates them.



Talk about backfiring! I guess it makes sense in that the council and alliance kept the nature of Soverign a secret, thus everyone saw it as a coup.



Anyway, we don't have to be liked. We can be hated, and hunted. But we'll still be saving galactic comunity, in the darkness. Our silent hero. Our Dark knight.

[Jayce]

falloutgod13 wrote...

Anyone else feel like the MATRIX guys are going to be pissed off once they realize their melting of people idea and swooshing them through tubes was used by Bioware?

Melting people down into goo and using them to build a planet-busting bio-mechanical dreadnought is much more Lexx than Matrix.

Hell, Thane gave me Kai vibes.

[Jonny_Evil]

Marlina wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

@Marlina

Without Reaper tech we'd never be in the position to be harvested. You're getting back to assuming that you're smarter than they are, which doesn't fit any of the evidence whatsoever. Ignore that base, concentrate on developing alternate methods of fighting and travel, things they've never seen before and you've got a chance to beat them. Use the base, and you've just got more weapons they've already seen and expose yourself to their influence.

They depend on you using their technology, using more on the unwarranted assumption that they never wanted you to have it doesn't make sense.

You're assuming they're smarter than we are. That's a defeatist position. Why not just lay down and die when they're oh-so obviously smarter than us?

We may not have the time to develop other kinds of technology. Furthermore, as I've said a thousand times before in this thread, we don't necessarily need to use reaper tech, but it doesn't hurt to UNDERSTAND it. Best course of action, combining both our views: Spare the base, develop entirely NEW tech, designed to take down whatever tech you found in the base. 

It's not a defeatist position at all, it's just not being arrogant. Saying that I'm not as smart as a billion year old machine god is like saying I'm not as hard as a cliff or as strong as a hurricane. It doesn't mean that I don't think they can be defeated, just that they won't be defeated by playing their game. I'm just going by facts:

Fact: They've been doing this for millions of years.
Fact: They manipulate races into using their technology.
Fact: Previous races have far surpassed current understanding of said technology.
Fact: They have still fallen.

Ergo, advancing into those lines of technology fails to stop them.

Fact: They leave traps in their technology.
Fact: Indoctrination cannot currently be prevented.
Fact: They have a history of using indoctrinated individuals to infiltrate societies.

Ergo, investigating, researching, touching or simply being near their technology or technology corrupted by them is highly dangerous. Unless it's blasted into a million pieces like Sovereign.

There you have a logical argument for not touching that base. Allow me to add that the base was all Prothean/Collector technology apart from the device creating the new Reaper. No Reaper weapons, no Reaper shields, no Reaper engines, no data. It would be like thinking you could glean insight into an F-22 by researching a fertility clinic.

So, no Reaper technology, no Reaper evidence for the Council ("It's all very well Shepard, but we see no evidence of "Reapers" here, these creatures were obviously just the degenerate remnants of the Protheans") but a substantial risk of exposing people to any traps laid by Harbinger.

[TheKnave69]

Inverness Moon wrote...

The reaper threat is too import to worry about what happens afterwards with Cerberus. We're trying to stop a cycle that has been going on for hundrds of millions of years. We should get our priorities straight. Discarding possible advantages because of idealism is extremely risky, more risky than attempting to study the collector technology in my opinion.

It could also lead to serious ramifications in the form of unintend and unanticipated blow-back. 

During WWII, we (The OSS)  supported the leader of French Indochina against the Japanese.  His name was Ho Chi Minh.  From the early 1960's to the early 1970's that came back to bite us.

During the Russian/Afganistan war of the 1980s we supplied the Mujahideen with weapons, tactics, and material support.  Once the Russian's were defeated, they turned those same tactics and weapons on us.

During the short term, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, but without a mutual enemy, the dynamics are different.

[senojones]

I would love to hear peoples opinions after being stuck in one of those collector pods, almost being melted to death.

Personally totally destroying the Collectors idea's and technology so no one will understand it would leave the universe better off.

Modifié par senojones, 01 février 2010 - 08:02 .

[aimlessgun]

TheKnave69 wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

The reaper threat is too import to worry about what happens afterwards with Cerberus. We're trying to stop a cycle that has been going on for hundrds of millions of years. We should get our priorities straight. Discarding possible advantages because of idealism is extremely risky, more risky than attempting to study the collector technology in my opinion.

It could also lead to serious ramifications in the form of unintend and unanticipated blow-back. 

During WWII, we (The OSS)  supported the leader of French Indochina against the Japanese.  His name was Ho Chi Minh.  From the early 1960's to the early 1970's that came back to bite us.

During the Russian/Afganistan war of the 1980s we supplied the Mujahideen with weapons, tactics, and material support.  Once the Russian's were defeated, they turned those same tactics and weapons on us.

During the short term, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, but without a mutual enemy, the dynamics are different.

Good examples, but the threats posed by Japan and Russia were less dire and more morally ambiguous. The threat posed by the reapers is certain death or slavery for all sapient species. If Ho Chi Minh could help me vs the reapers I woulnd't hesitate for a second. Because even if he caused me trouble later on, even if he friggin killed me later, humanity would still live on.

[Fulgrim88]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

It's not a defeatist position at all, it's just not being arrogant. Saying that I'm not as smart as a billion year old machine god is like saying I'm not as hard as a cliff or as strong as a hurricane. It doesn't mean that I don't think they can be defeated, just that they won't be defeated by playing their game. I'm just going by facts:

Fact: They've been doing this for millions of years.
Fact: They manipulate races into using their technology.
Fact: Previous races have far surpassed current understanding of said technology.
Fact: They have still fallen.

Ergo, advancing into those lines of technology fails to stop them.

Well then, what does? Throwing rocks at them, while shouting out your superior morals?

There's no need to argue that there's a catch in using their technology, there definetely is, but still it would be foolish to hope that we can come up with something stronger on our own in the shortage of time.
Especially if you argue that we can't outsmart them, you should see the futility in trying to technologically surpass them. Aeons of manipulation can be overcome (as previously done with the infamous Citadel Honey Trap)
However, aeons of technological supremacy won't be overcome by Spacefaring Steve and his crafty Multitool in a matter of years (albeit i'm fully aware that this is still what will happen in ME3<_<)

[Giantevilhead]

What makes people think that they can actually learn anything from the Collector base? Everytime someone has tried to study Reaper tech, they go crazy and start turning people into husks. Only the Geth seem to have some kind of protection against Reaper tech and Cerberus will never give the Collector base to the Geth.

[aimlessgun]

senojones wrote...

I would love to hear peoples opinions after being stuck in one of those collector pods, almost being melted to death.

What's done is done.

If I could go back in time and kill fetus Hitler, I wouldn't bother. Because all those people already suffered.

[aimlessgun]

Jonny_Evil wrote...


Fact: They've been doing this for millions of years.
Fact: They manipulate races into using their technology.
Fact: Previous races have far surpassed current understanding of said technology.
Fact: They have still fallen.

Ergo, advancing into those lines of technology fails to stop them.

They manipulate races into using the relays and the citadel, then strike at the heart and control the transportation system of the galaxy.

Guess what, we beat them at that. Everything from this point on is off the rails for them.

[Fulgrim88]

Giantevilhead wrote...

What makes people think that they can actually learn anything from the Collector base? Everytime someone has tried to study Reaper tech, they go crazy and start turning people into husks. Only the Geth seem to have some kind of protection against Reaper tech and Cerberus will never give the Collector base to the Geth.

Well, additionaly to the aforementioned Reaper technology working just fine (ME Relays, Citadel) you might have noticed that big gun on the Normandy. That's ripped of Sovereigns main gun by Turian Engineers and seems to work just fine.

People should stop arguing that every reaper manufactured toaster comes with unstoppable mind controlling magic.<_<

Reaper tech can be investigated. And we don't have to copy it, it will work just fine if it simply helps to find a better way to countermeasure it, with technology of our own which the Reapers can't predict.

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 01 février 2010 - 08:10 .

[TheKnave69]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Well then, what does? Throwing rocks at them, while shouting out your superior morals?

Be unpredictable.  The Reapers fully expect the lesser races to base their technology on Reaper tech.  By not doing so, you introduce a variable that is, if not unanticipated, at least is an unknown.  It's the known unknown, while not being as good as the unknown unknown is better than the known known, because we know the answer to the known known, but can only mitigate the known unknown, however, the response to the unknown unknown is unknowable.

For example, if we steal another team's playbook then we know how to counteract their plays, but if they have multiple plays based on the same lineup, then we can only guess what they're going to do.  If we develop our own playbook, they won't know how to react.

[Sharn01]

If you are aware of even the smallest amount of things Cerberus has done, you would not trust them with the tech.



I would half expect if you gave the station to Cerberus colonies would start disappearing even faster as he has people turned to soup to experiment with what the tech can be used for.