582 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonny_Evil]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

It's not a defeatist position at all, it's just not being arrogant. Saying that I'm not as smart as a billion year old machine god is like saying I'm not as hard as a cliff or as strong as a hurricane. It doesn't mean that I don't think they can be defeated, just that they won't be defeated by playing their game. I'm just going by facts:

Fact: They've been doing this for millions of years.
Fact: They manipulate races into using their technology.
Fact: Previous races have far surpassed current understanding of said technology.
Fact: They have still fallen.

Ergo, advancing into those lines of technology fails to stop them.

Well then, what does? Throwing rocks at them, while shouting out your superior morals?

There's no need to argue that there's a catch in using their technology, there definetely is, but still it would be foolish to hope that we can come up with something stronger on our own in the shortage of time.
Especially if you argue that we can't outsmart them, you should see the futility in trying to technologically surpass them. Aeons of manipulation can be overcome (as previously done with the infamous Citadel Honey Trap)
However, aeons of technological supremacy won't be overcome by Spacefaring Steve and his crafty Multitool in a matter of years (albeit i'm fully aware that this is still what will happen in ME3<_<)

The smartest of people can be defeated by someone being unpredictable. The whole essence of the Reaper plan is to make their victims predictable. Even if alternate weapons technology can't defeat mass effect weapons in sheer power, they have the essence of surprise. Consider a larger version of the GARDIAN laser. Sovereign's shields were impervious to fire until Shepard disrupted him and his shields went down, but they're still kinetic barriers. A large version of the GARDIAN system might not be superior to ME weapons in combat against other Council ships, but they'd slice through a Reaper's shields as if they weren't there while all the advanced mass driver fire bounces off.

It's not superior morals either. If I thought liquidising a hundred million people to create our own Reaper would save 11 billion then I'd do it. Will I compete on a level playing field with ancient machines bent on genocide? No, it'd be like the Taliban trying to build a stealth bomber. It'd bankrupt them and their enemies can do it better anyway. What is needed is the future version of a scruffy goatherder with an AK-47 and an IED.

[Inverness Moon]

TheKnave69 wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Well then, what does? Throwing rocks at them, while shouting out your superior morals?

Be unpredictable.  The Reapers fully expect the lesser races to base their technology on Reaper tech.  By not doing so, you introduce a variable that is, if not unanticipated, at least is an unknown.  It's the known unknown, while not being as good as the unknown unknown is better than the known known, because we know the answer to the known known, but can only mitigate the known unknown, however, the response to the unknown unknown is unknowable.

For example, if we steal another team's playbook then we know how to counteract their plays, but if they have multiple plays based on the same lineup, then we can only guess what they're going to do.  If we develop our own playbook, they won't know how to react.

Methinks some people have listened to Sovereign's words and have been manipulated into believing that we can't win if we used the same technology as them to fight fire with fire. Score one for Sovereign.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

That's the minimum benefit. Unlocking new Reaper tech that we were never supposed to know is also a potential benefit

Again, you don't know that. You're still assuming that you're smarter than them.

That's why I said "potentially". It's worth investigating.
You are assuming they are necessarily smarter.

[Fulgrim88]

TheKnave69 wrote...
It's the known unknown, while not being as good as the unknown unknown is better than the known known, because we know the answer to the known known, but can only mitigate the known unknown, however, the response to the unknown unknown is unknowable

I'm seriously tempted to make this my Signature

Lovely:P

But to get serious again, after all, even the Reapers are just machines. Incredibly powerful, incredibly ancient, incredibly cunning, but if you point a big enough gun at them, they'd still take damage.
Take the aforementioned Indians vs. Colonists-example. The colonists might have predicted that the Indians would use any salvaged rifle against them, still they died when shot.

If the Reapers would really be impervous by their own technology, they wouldn't go such a long way hiding the lethal parts of it, or bother with scheming

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 01 février 2010 - 08:30 .

[TheKnave69]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

TheKnave69 wrote...
It's the known unknown, while not being as good as the unknown unknown is better than the known known, because we know the answer to the known known, but can only mitigate the known unknown, however, the response to the unknown unknown is unknowable

I'm seriously tempted to make this my Signature

Lovely:P

Feel free.  I was paraphrasing Donald Rumsfeld, "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we now know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. These are things we do not know we don’t know."

[aimlessgun]

TheKnave69 wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Well then, what does? Throwing rocks at them, while shouting out your superior morals?

For example, if we steal another team's playbook then we know how to counteract their plays, but if they have multiple plays based on the same lineup, then we can only guess what they're going to do.  If we develop our own playbook, they won't know how to react.

Except science isn't like playbooks The universe only works one way. The reapers understand how it works. Now we can too.

Look, the people in support of keeping the tech are NOT ARGUING FOR MAKING EXACT DUPLICATES. We are arguing for using the BASE PRINCIPLES. Like, there's this base principle that you can transmit energy with electromagnetic waves. You find something like a microwave oven, reverse engineer, make a laser. A bit of a silly example but that kind of repurposes of basic concepts is the idea here.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 01 février 2010 - 08:28 .

[Jonny_Evil]

Inverness Moon wrote...

TheKnave69 wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Well then, what does? Throwing rocks at them, while shouting out your superior morals?

Be unpredictable.  The Reapers fully expect the lesser races to base their technology on Reaper tech.  By not doing so, you introduce a variable that is, if not unanticipated, at least is an unknown.  It's the known unknown, while not being as good as the unknown unknown is better than the known known, because we know the answer to the known known, but can only mitigate the known unknown, however, the response to the unknown unknown is unknowable.

For example, if we steal another team's playbook then we know how to counteract their plays, but if they have multiple plays based on the same lineup, then we can only guess what they're going to do.  If we develop our own playbook, they won't know how to react.

Methinks some people have listened to Sovereign's words and have been manipulated into believing that we can't win if we used the same technology as them to fight fire with fire. Score one for Sovereign.

Sovereign's got nothing to do with it, and I wouldn't believe him anyway. What has got a lot to do with it are the things like cannons which crack continents, race harvested. A galaxy spanning civilisation advanced enough to build their own relays, harvested. Evidence of materials tech congruent or advanced compared to current, race harvested. They're all based on that technology, and if a species capable of building a cannon which fires a projectile that can score a crack across a planet and keep going gets harvested then it's obvious no matter how far advanced you go down that path the Reapers are not going to be defeated by it.

[Marlina]

TheKnave69 wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Well then, what does? Throwing rocks at them, while shouting out your superior morals?

Be unpredictable.  The Reapers fully expect the lesser races to base their technology on Reaper tech.  By not doing so, you introduce a variable that is, if not unanticipated, at least is an unknown.  It's the known unknown, while not being as good as the unknown unknown is better than the known known, because we know the answer to the known known, but can only mitigate the known unknown, however, the response to the unknown unknown is unknowable.

For example, if we steal another team's playbook then we know how to counteract their plays, but if they have multiple plays based on the same lineup, then we can only guess what they're going to do.  If we develop our own playbook, they won't know how to react.

So your idea is to scrap all reaper tech (this means no more mass effect tech) and start from scratch? I don't think we have the thousands of years necessary.

[Jonny_Evil]

aimlessgun wrote...

TheKnave69 wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Well then, what does? Throwing rocks at them, while shouting out your superior morals?

For example, if we steal another team's playbook then we know how to counteract their plays, but if they have multiple plays based on the same lineup, then we can only guess what they're going to do.  If we develop our own playbook, they won't know how to react.

Except science isn't like playbooks The universe only works one way. The reapers understand how it works. Now we can too.

Look, the people in support of keeping the tech are NOT ARGUING FOR MAKING EXACT DUPLICATES. We are arguing for using the BASE PRINCIPLES. Like, there's this base principle that you can transmit energy with electromagnetic waves. You find something like a microwave oven, reverse engineer, make a laser. A bit of a silly example but that kind of repurposes of basic concepts is the idea here.

I know what people are arguing for, but you're missing the point that they all worked from the BASE PRINCIPLES of that technology. They all worked from the capabilities of Element Zero, they all developed their own twists and versions of the technology because the Reapers salvage everything bar the Citadel and the Relays. They were all harvested. Over hundreds of thousands of civilisations independently working up from the capacity of Element Zero demonstrated by the Relays the Reapers will have seen, defeated and incorporated every possible permutation, simply through the sheer number of civilisations based upon those principles that they've harvested.

I can't help but think people believe the Citadel contains a nice handy reference guide and library of schematics to Mass Effect technology and if we find one we shouldn't have we're saved.

[Jonny_Evil]

Marlina wrote...

TheKnave69 wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

Well then, what does? Throwing rocks at them, while shouting out your superior morals?

Be unpredictable.  The Reapers fully expect the lesser races to base their technology on Reaper tech.  By not doing so, you introduce a variable that is, if not unanticipated, at least is an unknown.  It's the known unknown, while not being as good as the unknown unknown is better than the known known, because we know the answer to the known known, but can only mitigate the known unknown, however, the response to the unknown unknown is unknowable.

For example, if we steal another team's playbook then we know how to counteract their plays, but if they have multiple plays based on the same lineup, then we can only guess what they're going to do.  If we develop our own playbook, they won't know how to react.

So your idea is to scrap all reaper tech (this means no more mass effect tech) and start from scratch? I don't think we have the thousands of years necessary.

No, ME tech is obviously very useful and unfortunately necessary for travel. What we're saying is that all the techs which don't rely on Element Zero, things like lasers, focused nuclear pulses, plasma weapons, anything they can think of which might be feasible should be an immediate research priority over anything to do with Element Zero.

[zmortis1]

I notice a lot of people debating the issue in game terms, and with occasional real world examples to justify their points.

Let me point out a different angle. In the Metagame that is ME-1 and ME-2 one of the conventions of both games is that the upper right dialog wheel choice in the base of the the dialog tree exits the dialog with a Paragon Choice made, and the lower right dialog wheel choice in the base of the dialog tree exits the dialog with a Renegade Choice made. It is completely possible to successfully complete the game using either type of choices or a combination of them. In terms of game success there is no right or wrong implicit to these choices, though it is implied that Renegade choices are the more expedient option, and it is implied the Paragon choices are the more morally challenging path to pursue. The once thing that is consistant with both sets of choices is the concept that both carry consequences which may not be obvious at the time.

I think it is interesting that some people feel a need to defend their prefered end game choice with the Collector Station. It was very interesting when one poster above thought that using the Paragon Choices for endgames should be punished with game failure in both ME-1 and ME-2. I wonder if this is pointing to a change in cultural values where expediency and certain victory are culturally more important for some people than moral fortitude and talking the difficult path. It is interesting that expediency is most often touted at the "smart" choice when people are defending it.

A couple of in game things to point out though, the Mass Effect relays and the Citadel are Reaper technology that has been in the hands of several galactic civilizations for billions of years, yet no amount of study had fully unlocked any of their secrets until the Protheans came along and finally created their own Mass Effect relay gate. It was too late for even the Protheans to fully unlock the secrets of the Reapers before they were wiped out or turned into the collectors. Though the Protheans did manage to tamper with the keepers to keep them from remotely responding to the Reaper signals.

Unlike earlier galatic civilizations, the current one was standing more on Prothean technology from prior to Reaper indoctrination which allowed humanity and the other races to advance rapidly. The Collector base likely represents an extrapolation of both Prothean and Reaper technologies, and thus might act as a Rosetta Stone for better understanding Prothean technology. However, given the lack of progress made with learning Reaper technology up to that point over thousands of years, it is highly unlikely that they could rapidly unlock the necessary technology to defeat the approaching Reaper fleet which will (using Metagaming and knowledge of the advent of the upcomming ME-3) presumably attack again somehow within Shepards' lifetime.

I personally looked to David Brin and his "Uplift" series of novels to guide my choice. The basic theme in that series is it is better to use the technology you know and understand than the "magic" technology handed to you by another who understands its full set of implications much better. I recommend watching the movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy" for an good example of poorly understood technology in the wrong hands. I think the example would apply here. As far as the Cerberus angle the more recent movie "District 9" is a eye opening example of what can go wrong with handing dangerous things to somewhat nefarious organizations.

I hope this helps.

Modifié par zmortis1, 01 février 2010 - 08:50 .

[Fulgrim88]

Jonny_Evil wrote...
I know what people are arguing for, but you're missing the point that they all worked from the BASE PRINCIPLES of that technology. They all worked from the capabilities of Element Zero, they all developed their own twists and versions of the technology because the Reapers salvage everything bar the Citadel and the Relays. They were all harvested. Over hundreds of thousands of civilisations independently working up from the capacity of Element Zero demonstrated by the Relays the Reapers will have seen, defeated and incorporated every possible permutation, simply through the sheer number of civilisations based upon those principles that they've harvested.

I can't help but think people believe the Citadel contains a nice handy reference guide and library of schematics to Mass Effect technology and if we find one we shouldn't have we're saved.

While i can see your point, Marlina summed it up pretty well. We're lacking the time and knowledge to start from scratch.

Given what we have, learning as much as possible as fast as possible is the best we can do. In any case we might leave a note for subsequent civilisations to do it your way

[Marlina]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

I know what people are arguing for, but you're missing the point that they all worked from the BASE PRINCIPLES of that technology. They all worked from the capabilities of Element Zero, they all developed their own twists and versions of the technology because the Reapers salvage everything bar the Citadel and the Relays. They were all harvested. Over hundreds of thousands of civilisations independently working up from the capacity of Element Zero demonstrated by the Relays the Reapers will have seen, defeated and incorporated every possible permutation, simply through the sheer number of civilisations based upon those principles that they've harvested.

I can't help but think people believe the Citadel contains a nice handy reference guide and library of schematics to Mass Effect technology and if we find one we shouldn't have we're saved.

Then what do you suggest we do? Concrete suggestions only please, none of this "well, we ought to just research a whole lot and come up with something cool", because that'll take a lot of time, time we don't have. We can't just stop using mass effect technology. 

I'm just really curious as to how we're gonna get something up and running, even getting FTL travel, without taking too long. 

[Marlina]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

No, ME tech is obviously very useful and unfortunately necessary for travel. What we're saying is that all the techs which don't rely on Element Zero, things like lasers, focused nuclear pulses, plasma weapons, anything they can think of which might be feasible should be an immediate research priority over anything to do with Element Zero.

Then why not do both? It's not like studying the collector's base will keep us from doing anything else. 

[AtreiyaN7]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

TIM has proven that he can get things done, I gave him the base because it is better than destroying the base and hoping we find some other way to destroy an army of reapers. I also don't think he is stupid, steps will be taken to ensure that indoctrination does not happen again.

Also I think I mentioned this before, but it is a collector base, not a derelict reaper. I believe it is incorrect to assume that people can become indoctrination by being on the collector base for long periods of time.

I don't think the Illusive Man is stupid, I think he's extremely intelligent and cunning. The question that must be asked, however, is this: Is he more intelligent and more cunning than an ancient AI who has been conquering and manipulating civilisations for millions of years? You're taking one hell of a risk on that gamble, all it would take would be his exposure to an innocuous piece of technology that has indoctrination capability embedded and Cerberus turns to the Reapers.

As to the presence of indoctrination technology on the Collector base, Harbinger was using it to control the Collectors, so there must be some. Either way it relies on an assumption, only your way disaster strikes if your assumption is wrong, it doesn't if mine is wrong.

To echo what Inverness said, the Reapers (Harbinger specifically) control the Collectors, and the Collector base might have whatever Reaper tech it is that causes Indoctrination. The dead derelict Reaper still indoctrinated  the Cerberus researchers, and the remains of that Reaper larva are still in the base as well presumably. We don't know how intact it is, or if it's capable of indoctrination still (a la the derelict Reaper). That's something to be wary of. And at any rate, if there's even the slightest chance that TIM somehow manages to research Indoctrination, that can only go badly for the rest of the galaxy in my opinion  - "human dominance" kind of says it all about TIM.

Also, people in another thread pointed out that if you blow up the base, the star behind TIM turns blue, and if you keep the base, it turns red - clearly a visual cue about the nature of your decision. As for getting Renegade/Paragon points for keeping the base, it might depend on the tone you take in your dialogue. *shrug* I know Marlina suggested breaking the base down, but really, I wouldn't take any chances with completely intact Reaper tech. As I said about the Thannix Cannon, that came from research done on INERT fragments from  Sovereign/Nazara. I really wouldn't want to hang out at that base and take the risk that things could go wrong.

Still, choose your path - everyone has valid reasons for saving the base or destroying it. We'll see the results in ME3 - heh. At this point, I just hope I unified the Geth and ensure peace between them and the Quarians. *fingers crossed*

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 01 février 2010 - 09:01 .

[DrDoom6]

Did you see just how positively evil the illusive man's smile is while looking at the ship. That's why.



Of course I sided with the Illusive Man just to say a big screw you to the council especially with how they treat you in this game. But still.

[aimlessgun]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

I know what people are arguing for, but you're missing the point that they all worked from the BASE PRINCIPLES of that technology. They all worked from the capabilities of Element Zero, they all developed their own twists and versions of the technology because the Reapers salvage everything bar the Citadel and the Relays. They were all harvested. Over hundreds of thousands of civilisations independently working up from the capacity of Element Zero demonstrated by the Relays the Reapers will have seen, defeated and incorporated every possible permutation, simply through the sheer number of civilisations based upon those principles that they've harvested.

I STRONGLY disagree with this. The protheans did something new. They understood the tech and built their own relay, and with our help stopped the reaper invasion. The reapers have not seen this before. We + protheans are better than all the civs before us.

This is a matter of opinion of course. We cannot prove it either way, and I will believe my version and you will believe yours.

[KnightofPhoenix]

zmortis1 wrote...
I wonder if this is pointing to a change in cultural values where expediency and certain victory are culturally more important for some people than moral fortitude and talking the difficult path. It is interesting that expediency is most often touted at the "smart" choice when people are defending it.

Some people?
Tha's politics and war 101. Victory no matter the cost.

[TuringPoint]

It's Reaper technology. It would corrupt and possibly indoctrinate anyone who studied it.



At least that's my theory. Even if it didn't, how would Cerberus reasonably use this information? Make another Reaper? When you ask him that, he doesn't do a lot to assuage your concern.

[Jonny_Evil]

Marlina wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

No, ME tech is obviously very useful and unfortunately necessary for travel. What we're saying is that all the techs which don't rely on Element Zero, things like lasers, focused nuclear pulses, plasma weapons, anything they can think of which might be feasible should be an immediate research priority over anything to do with Element Zero.

Then why not do both? It's not like studying the collector's base will keep us from doing anything else. 

Because it would destroy the will to do anything else, just like the Relays and the Citadel. Instead of desperate attempts to bring other weapon possibilities up to scratch, people would expect profound, Reaper destroying revelations from it and not bother with other technologies. Even on this thread we've got plenty of people arguing that the base will yield the ability to destroy the Reapers, extrapolate that up to beaurocracy, budgets, personal reputations, misguided belief in our own superiority and nothing else would get done, Even if it's not full of Reaper traps, it could still easily lead to destruction by blinding people to alternatives and leading them once more down the path set out for them.

[Marlina]

zmortis1 wrote...

I think it is interesting that some people feel a need to defend their prefered end game choice with the Collector Station. It was very interesting when one poster above thought that using the Paragon Choices for endgames should be punished with game failure in both ME-1 and ME-2. I wonder if this is pointing to a change in cultural values where expediency and certain victory are culturally more important for some people than moral fortitude and talking the difficult path. It is interesting that expediency is most often touted at the "smart" choice when people are defending it.

You take a funny position, not arguing against anything, merely calling it "interesting". 
Survival is paramount to any living organism. It trumps pretty much anything else, because without it, you won't really be able to enjoy the effects of anything else. Taking the "difficulty path" by saving the council is just irresponsible.

[Barquiel]

Even a renegade character like Miranda (Cerberus!) says it is a bad idea to keep the base. I destroyed it.

[MediumD]

I chose to save the Collector Base the first time through. I later replayed the finale and destroyed it. I wouldn't want TIM acquiring mind control technology, and I wouldn't want to see Cerberus harvesting alien (or even human) colonies to build Cerberus-friendly Reapers. To put it another way, I'd save the Collector Base if there wasn't an evil, scheming madman ready to exploit it.

[Jonny_Evil]

aimlessgun wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

I know what people are arguing for, but you're missing the point that they all worked from the BASE PRINCIPLES of that technology. They all worked from the capabilities of Element Zero, they all developed their own twists and versions of the technology because the Reapers salvage everything bar the Citadel and the Relays. They were all harvested. Over hundreds of thousands of civilisations independently working up from the capacity of Element Zero demonstrated by the Relays the Reapers will have seen, defeated and incorporated every possible permutation, simply through the sheer number of civilisations based upon those principles that they've harvested.

I STRONGLY disagree with this. The protheans did something new. They understood the tech and built their own relay, and with our help stopped the reaper invasion. The reapers have not seen this before. We + protheans are better than all the civs before us.

This is a matter of opinion of course. We cannot prove it either way, and I will believe my version and you will believe yours.

The Protheans managed to understand how to build a relay, that reinforces my point. Most cultures apparently don't bother, because they work anyway. That indicates to me that the Protheans were far more curious and advanced down the path than a normal civilisation, and they were still utterly destroyed. Of course, they stopped the Reapers with our help, by using biological engineering on the Keepers. Itself an unpredictable act not based on Element Zero technology.

You're basically pointing out that a highly advanced civilisation with an unrivalled knowledge of the base principles behind using Element Zero still got slaughtered easily.

[Marlina]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Because it would destroy the will to do anything else, just like the Relays and the Citadel. Instead of desperate attempts to bring other weapon possibilities up to scratch, people would expect profound, Reaper destroying revelations from it and not bother with other technologies. Even on this thread we've got plenty of people arguing that the base will yield the ability to destroy the Reapers, extrapolate that up to beaurocracy, budgets, personal reputations, misguided belief in our own superiority and nothing else would get done, Even if it's not full of Reaper traps, it could still easily lead to destruction by blinding people to alternatives and leading them once more down the path set out for them.

Well, that's not up to Shepard to decide. She only gets to decide whether to save the base or not. Whether the council or Cerberus or anyone else tries to make new tech independent of what found on the Collector's base is up in the air.

And again, you're just assuming that this will happen. I've said numerous times that it's possible to STUDY it without focusing ALL our resources towards it. And we don't need to adopt it, we just need to understand it. See, if you know your enemy, then you might have a clue how to kill it. Knowledge > Ignorance. Or do you think it would be negative to know of the Reaper's weaknesses? Or are you still just afraid that someone important might get indoctrinated? 

Besdies, the Reapers DID NOT INTEND THE BASE TO FALL INTO HUMAN HANDS! I don't understand where you got this idea from, that it's all part of their ridiculously contrived plan.