582 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Barquiel wrote...

Even a renegade character like Miranda (Cerberus!) says it is a bad idea to keep the base. I destroyed it.

I believe Legion says something to the opposite effect.

[Marlina]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

The Protheans managed to understand how to build a relay, that reinforces my point. Most cultures apparently don't bother, because they work anyway. That indicates to me that the Protheans were far more curious and advanced down the path than a normal civilisation, and they were still utterly destroyed. Of course, they stopped the Reapers with our help, by using biological engineering on the Keepers. Itself an unpredictable act not based on Element Zero technology.

You're basically pointing out that a highly advanced civilisation with an unrivalled knowledge of the base principles behind using Element Zero still got slaughtered easily.

So how do you think a civilization without knowledge of any ME tech would fare? Would they, without FTL travel and without anything else derived from the reapers, manage to hold them back? I don't think so.

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I know Marlina suggested breaking the base down, but really, I wouldn't take any chances with completely intact Reaper tech. As I said about the Thannix Cannon, that came from research done on INERT fragments based on Sovereign/Nazara. I really wouldn't want to hang out at that base and take the risk that things could go wrong. 

May I remind you that the ME relays are, in fact, working reaper technology?

[aimlessgun]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

I know what people are arguing for, but you're missing the point that they all worked from the BASE PRINCIPLES of that technology. They all worked from the capabilities of Element Zero, they all developed their own twists and versions of the technology because the Reapers salvage everything bar the Citadel and the Relays. They were all harvested. Over hundreds of thousands of civilisations independently working up from the capacity of Element Zero demonstrated by the Relays the Reapers will have seen, defeated and incorporated every possible permutation, simply through the sheer number of civilisations based upon those principles that they've harvested.

I STRONGLY disagree with this. The protheans did something new. They understood the tech and built their own relay, and with our help stopped the reaper invasion. The reapers have not seen this before. We + protheans are better than all the civs before us.

This is a matter of opinion of course. We cannot prove it either way, and I will believe my version and you will believe yours.

The Protheans managed to understand how to build a relay, that reinforces my point. Most cultures apparently don't bother, because they work anyway. That indicates to me that the Protheans were far more curious and advanced down the path than a normal civilisation, and they were still utterly destroyed. Of course, they stopped the Reapers with our help, by using biological engineering on the Keepers. Itself an unpredictable act not based on Element Zero technology.

You're basically pointing out that a highly advanced civilisation with an unrivalled knowledge of the base principles behind using Element Zero still got slaughtered easily.

And again we have completely different perspectives.

The protheans died, but they did something NOBODY ELSE HAD EVER DONE. Ever. In millions of years. By unlocking reaper tech, by understanding it, they saved us.

That includes using biotech on the keepers: they had to understand reaper tech (keepers) to modify them. Ezo is not the only thing that falls into reaper tech.

So basically the protheans saved us by unlocking the secrets of reaper technology. And we're going to do the same thing again.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 01 février 2010 - 09:11 .

[Jonny_Evil]

Marlina wrote...

 Taking the "difficulty path" by saving the council is just irresponsible.

So... when you're under attack by a dreadnought it's irresponsible to save the biggest dreadnought in the fleet with the biggest dreadnought killing guns from being pecked to death by a swarm of cruisers? Screw the council, I saved the Destiny Ascension for sound tactical reasons. As Sovereign was destroyed and saving the council as a byproduct unified the galaxy and brought much needed stability the paragon choice there is vindicated as the correct one.

[Fulgrim88]

zmortis1 wrote...

I think it is interesting that some people feel a need to defend their prefered end game choice with the Collector Station. It was very interesting when one poster above thought that using the Paragon Choices for endgames should be punished with game failure in both ME-1 and ME-2. I wonder if this is pointing to a change in cultural values where expediency and certain victory are culturally more important for some people than moral fortitude and talking the difficult path. It is interesting that expediency is most often touted at the "smart" choice when people are defending it.

That poster being me, I guess i'll have to explain something. I don't really care what's morally sound, or what earns you light side/dark side points. My point was, that the story doesn't care about the impact of "popular" decisions, which by no means has to be as good as intended.
On the contrary, it punishes hard choices, which IRL tend to be unpopular but wise, once you see the big picture, by making the outcome unpopular AND bad.

As described in my example of the ME1 ending, abandoning fire support for one ship in favor of loosing the whole battle makes perfect sense from both military view and common sense, still the outcome is worse than the  "Well, we better hope Sovereign doesn't kill us while our fleet does nothing"-Paragon-choice, which is basically a gamble.
I'm not saying that the game should punish morally sound decisions. I'm just saying that it shouldn't unreservedly reward "stupid" ones (in addition to making them all shiny, popular and "good")


As for your other points, i was wondering myself how the races in ME struggle for centuries to grasp some technologys, then at the same time adapt to others in a couple of years (like the weapons developed out of salvaged Sovereign tech, or Humanity as a whole, which hasn't been around for more than a couple of decades but already fields equal ships (and did so before sharing tech with other races, as seen in the first contact war).
I always thought this matter to be a little flawed

[Marlina]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

So... when you're under attack by a dreadnought it's irresponsible to save the biggest dreadnought in the fleet with the biggest dreadnought killing guns from being pecked to death by a swarm of cruisers? Screw the council, I saved the Destiny Ascension for sound tactical reasons. As Sovereign was destroyed and saving the council as a byproduct unified the galaxy and brought much needed stability the paragon choice there is vindicated as the correct one.

Yes, because the biggest dreadnought in the fleet won't help you defeat Sovereign. You have the benefit of hindsight. You can later say that "yeah, I did the right thing", but if things had turned out differently, you wouldn't have. In real life, you couldn't afford to take the risk.

[llFlapjackll]

Plain & Simple peeps.



Legion says that it may have been better for humanity to make there own future instead of letting the technology do it for you.



Bottom line the reapers are coming and they need to be stopped if one destroyed the base the chance of survival goes down just compare all the weapons on the normandy based on reaper technology without and then going thru the relay you would have died.



Saving the collector's base may very well jump technology a 1000 years ahead and we don't have 1000 years to just sit around researching stuff that doesn't exist.



So what if the illusive man plans on dominating the galaxy after destroying the reapers atleast we weren't systematically deleted from the galaxy!



The Reapers are coming and are the bigger threat here they need to be stopped.

[Barquiel]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

So... when you're under attack by a dreadnought it's irresponsible to save the biggest dreadnought in the fleet with the biggest dreadnought killing guns from being pecked to death by a swarm of cruisers? Screw the council, I saved the Destiny Ascension for sound tactical reasons. As Sovereign was destroyed and saving the council as a byproduct unified the galaxy and brought much needed stability the paragon choice there is vindicated as the correct one.

I agree

I don't care about the council in this situation, but it's a poor tactical decision to ignore the geth fleet.

[aimlessgun]

To take this further off the rails, my assessment based on available info was that the DA was pretty much inoperative and wouldn't be particularly helpful if saved.

[newcomplex]

Did you guys see how many reapers were coming?



Your going to need every advantage you can get.

[D3thray]

This is the way I see this whole thread, those afraid of new things and those who accept a reality that there is danger present in new things.  Basically those in favor of a status quo and keeping things the same and those in favor of new ideas.  Conservative vs Liberal.  Anti Stem Cell research vs Pro Stem Cell research.

I don't think anyone in this thread is claiming that saving the Collector Base is without risk and obviously the best choice, however the apparent minority accepts this risk as a necessary part of advancing knowledge and civilization.  Of course it could be a huge boon doggle, but that's the beauty of the choice and the brilliance of the ME2 writers.

Personally I feel if we never took a risk, never stood on the shoulders of another, we'd never even have tried using fire let alone create the civilization we have today.  Saving the Collector base to gain a potential leg up is worth the possible danger in my opinion.  Don't forget that TIM also ressurected Shepard, re-built the Normandy and backed this whole expedition in the first place.  Was it a bad thing just because TIM masterminded it?  I don't think so, based upon the result.  Sure TIM could screw this up, but he is willing to take the risks that the Council would never take.

[Chimerical Man]

TIM's supposed cold, hard logic is one of those looks-good-on-paper matters. In theory, yes, the technology in the Collector base would do wonders for civilization and defense against the Reapers themselves, despite the fact that thousands of humans died horrific and agonizing deaths to create it (the player's conscience plays a large part there).

However, Shepard should be sharp enough to see through the surface of TIM's argument, as well as the gaping holes in it.
1. This is still TIM you're giving this technology to. The secretive supremist one-man-illuminati TIM. Sure, he saved your life -- for his own ends. Those ends being Cerberus (or human, in his words) supremacy. Uninhibited Cerberus is an unnerving prospect for most, and human supremacy isn't necessarily a priority for many.
2. It's a Reaper. Those things whose very corpses still control minds. Whole lot of good that will do us. We might even get an indoctrinated TIM out of it, that'd be grand.

[AtreiyaN7]

Marlina wrote...

age to hold them back? I don't think so.

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I know Marlina suggested breaking the base down, but really, I wouldn't take any chances with completely intact Reaper tech. As I said about the Thannix Cannon, that came from research done on INERT fragments based on Sovereign/Nazara. I really wouldn't want to hang out at that base and take the risk that things could go wrong. 

May I remind you that the ME relays are, in fact, working reaper technology?

And the mass relays, if I may remind you, are the result of Reaper tech with the Citadel as the key to an invasion every 50,000 years. It didn't work out too well for the Protheans (considering THEY ended up as the Collectors, although I am immensely grateful that they came up with the Conduit of course). The Reapers do seek to guide the technological development and evolution of organics down the paths that they desire.

[Fulgrim88]

And so the cycle begins anew...

I love forums

[newcomplex]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Marlina wrote...

age to hold them back? I don't think so.

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I know Marlina suggested breaking the base down, but really, I wouldn't take any chances with completely intact Reaper tech. As I said about the Thannix Cannon, that came from research done on INERT fragments based on Sovereign/Nazara. I really wouldn't want to hang out at that base and take the risk that things could go wrong. 

May I remind you that the ME relays are, in fact, working reaper technology?

And the mass relays, if I may remind you, are the result of Reaper tech with the Citadel as the key to an invasion every 50,000 years. It didn't work out too well for the Protheans (considering THEY ended up as the Collectors, although I am immensely grateful that they came up with the Conduit of course). The Reapers do seek to guide the technological development and evolution of organics down the paths that they desire.

The only reasons mass relays are used by reapers are to speed up the growth of galactic civilization, so the reapers have more to reap.   

The only gain against the eternal war against reapers were when the protheans reversed engineered mass relays.

Reaper tech.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 01 février 2010 - 10:16 .

[vietnamsquirrel]

this thread is epic..

[Jonny_Evil]

Marlina wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

So... when you're under attack by a dreadnought it's irresponsible to save the biggest dreadnought in the fleet with the biggest dreadnought killing guns from being pecked to death by a swarm of cruisers? Screw the council, I saved the Destiny Ascension for sound tactical reasons. As Sovereign was destroyed and saving the council as a byproduct unified the galaxy and brought much needed stability the paragon choice there is vindicated as the correct one.

Yes, because the biggest dreadnought in the fleet won't help you defeat Sovereign. You have the benefit of hindsight. You can later say that "yeah, I did the right thing", but if things had turned out differently, you wouldn't have. In real life, you couldn't afford to take the risk.

I'm not using hindsight. Sovereign was a dreadnought, the Destiny Ascension had guns specifically designed to combat dreadnoughts. I sacrificed a number of cruisers who's guns aren't designed to crack dreadnought shields in order to protect a ship who can. It's not a great tactical leap.

Also, you seem to be taking things to extreme. If I told you internal combustion engines were damaging the environment, would you shout that we can't go back to the horse and cart so we must live with them? No you wouldn't. You'd keep them while researching ways to replace them. It's the same principle, some elements of the Reaper's technology can't be feasibly replaced in the time available. This doesn't mean that other potential technologies can't be developed as well. I'm sure in a galaxy of trillions there are plenty of completely un-predictable plans for weaponry that can be developed.

[TheKnave69]

It says something about the quality of the game that it invokes this kind of discussion, doesn't it?

[Jonny_Evil]

newcomplex wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Marlina wrote...

age to hold them back? I don't think so.

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I know Marlina suggested breaking the base down, but really, I wouldn't take any chances with completely intact Reaper tech. As I said about the Thannix Cannon, that came from research done on INERT fragments based on Sovereign/Nazara. I really wouldn't want to hang out at that base and take the risk that things could go wrong. 

May I remind you that the ME relays are, in fact, working reaper technology?

And the mass relays, if I may remind you, are the result of Reaper tech with the Citadel as the key to an invasion every 50,000 years. It didn't work out too well for the Protheans (considering THEY ended up as the Collectors, although I am immensely grateful that they came up with the Conduit of course). The Reapers do seek to guide the technological development and evolution of organics down the paths that they desire.

The only reasons mass relays are used by reapers are to speed up the growth of galactic civilization, so the reapers have more to reap.   

The only gain against the eternal war against reapers were when the protheans reversed engineered mass relays.

Reaper tech.   

It wasn't reverse engineering the Relays that let the Protheans stop the Citadel activating, it was purely bio-engineering. A tech that, while the Reapers are very good at it, isn't one that they deliberately force civilisations down. It was an unpredictable move, that is why it succeeded. The conduit is totally irrelevant and only serves to reinforce the message that mastering eezo technology is no defence against the Reapers.

Why is the conduit totally irrelevant? Because they merely used it to travel to the Citadel after the Reapers had already left the galaxy. It was merely the quickest way there, if they had not gained the ability to build it then they could have taken a ship to the Citadel instead.

[senojones]

llFlapjackll wrote...

So what if the illusive man plans on dominating the galaxy after destroying the reapers atleast we weren't systematically deleted from the galaxy!

The Reapers are coming and are the bigger threat here they need to be stopped.

All you are doing is eliminating one enemy and giving that power into another enemy, in the end you've pretty much done nothing but extended that threat. There isn't much difference between destroying or dominating the galaxy, both outcomes are evil and wrong, some might rather be dead than being turned into a slave.

Another point to put out their, people have been arguing about the "right or wrong", but to me I think its more of a choice between the right or easy choice. Reapers/Collectors have picked the easy route, removing any sort of morals of right & wrong.. and in turn they've gained the greater advantage over anything else in the universe. So if you still want to stick with the idea of sacraficing moral values for doing the logical/smart route in defeating your enemies, it seems like there isn't much difference between you and the Reapers/Collectors.

Thats gonna always be a problem with free will and opinions, our technology will always outrace our hearts, for a lot of people that isn't an issue.

Modifié par senojones, 01 février 2010 - 11:37 .

[grumpymooselion]

I think quite a few renegade/paragon point options result in some strange point rewards. If you keep Legion you get a bunch of Paragon point. If you send him to Cerberus . . . you get Paragon points. :\\

[Starscream723]

Everyone knows... Good Guys Blow Stuff Up!

[john william]

I'm open to the possibility that the writers want us to treat Reaver tech like the One Ring in LotR, but if that's the case, they confused the issue with so many examples of people successfully adapting Reaver tech in order to thwart them...

[D3thray]

[/quote]

Why is the conduit totally irrelevant? Because they merely used it to travel to the Citadel after the Reapers had already left the galaxy. It was merely the quickest way there, if they had not gained the ability to build it then they could have taken a ship to the Citadel instead.

[/quote]

You mean the fictional-even-in-Mass-Effect-ships that can travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in less than a lifetime?  They have FTL sure but the Galaxy is huge, many thousands of light years across.  Even at light speed it would take 100,000 years to cross from one side to the other.  The Reapers would have come and gone twice more by then.  The conduit is significant in that it was the ONLY way to carry out their plan of re-engineering the Keepers, i.e. the only way that allowed the Reapers even be possibly defeatable has been using Reaper tech...

[Mister Mage]

The problem is that the Reaper tech, the tech that EATS PEOPLE, is being given to Cerberus. When you do the Paragon ending, it's obvious. "CERBERUS *IS* HUMANITY!". It may make the final fight easier, and I hope it does, but at the cost of an ending that involves totalitarian humans and split ties.