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Ok, seriously, why is keeping the base the renegade choice?


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#426
KnightofPhoenix

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ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

IT's not an argument to say "chances are the station would be useless". That's irresponsable. You study it first and then determine if it can be useful or not. Is it potentially useless? Maybe. But we don't know that. So better be safe than sorry. Of course I realise that the same sentence can be used vis a vis TIM acquiring the Station. But it will dpeend on perspective. I personally share alot of beliefs with TIM, and I trust him with the tech more than I trust the Alliane or the council (whether human centric or not). But that's just me.  



This.

Good to see not everyone on these forums is an idealistic paragon fanboy that thinks Cerberus should burn and all power should be handed over to the Citadel.


My character is slightly more paragon than renegade and I still chose to keep the station and work with Cerberus happily.
If anything, ME2 showed me that Cerberus is in fact more powerful, more ressourceful and more determined than the Alliance and the Council. I in fact got concerned that the ending implied us severing ties with TIM. Out of all potential allies against the reapers (including Krogans, Geth and Quarians), I think Cerberus and TIM are the most valuable . 

#427
ashmiranda3waymm

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...


My character is slightly more paragon than renegade and I still chose to keep the station and work with Cerberus happily.
If anything, ME2 showed me that Cerberus is in fact more powerful, more ressourceful and more determined than the Alliance and the Council. I in fact got concerned that the ending implied us severing ties with TIM. Out of all potential allies against the reapers (including Krogans, Geth and Quarians), I think Cerberus and TIM are the most valuable . 


Exactly.

I can work for Cerberus with a completely clear conscience. If I had to work for an organization that had a perfect moral record I could not work for the Alliance or the Citadel either. Anyway, innocent human lives are far more important than any warm feelings I may get from trying to "stick it to the (Illusive) man."

#428
TrueRedemption

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I think the indoctrination concern is a bit unfounded, my understanding of the choice to study the station was more literal than it seems many believe it is.  The human reaper is (hopefully) largely destroyed, and thanks to its being at a very early stage in development, its destruction should have very reduced indoctrination effects, if any.  Additionally the reaper was classified as both synthetic and organic, so the radiation could have inflicted even more damage upon the baby reaper than is shown in game.  However study of that destroyed reaper is secondary compared to the research I was considering in this situation.  The base is Collector by nature, not reaper.  The Collectors are mutated Protheans, molded by the reapers yes, but not in any way directly related or similar to the reapers.  The reapers (more likely individual reaper, who my guess is names Harbinger, and was just speaking through the collectors) controlled the Protheans, but they also released this control at the end of the game, shown quite clearly.  I see little to no reason why studying the collector ship would have any more chance of indoctrination than studying Ilos, or any Prothean ruin would.  The discovery on Mars that brought humanity into the galactic scene was also Prothean tech, likewise the beacons, etc.  
The Reapers used the indoctrinated Protheans to help wipe out intelligent life in the previous cycle.  It is likely these Protheans who became the collectors, and the only imaginable reason the Reapers left them alive was a type of safeguard should Sovereign fail.  Because they were effectively a backup plan, it makes sense to keep them somewhere safe, logically the Omega 4 relay.  The Reapers wouldn't have need for a full race or army of Collectors, explaining why there is only 1 ship, and 1 base, rather than a full civilization spread across multiple planets with many ships.  The Reapers likewise would have little reason to develop the Collectors tech all that much, they were used as basic cleanup tools, they don't need significantly advanced tech to do this.  It appears there is reaper technology at work with the collectors, but it is very difficult to determine what is specifically Reaper tech compared to standard Prothean tech.  Protheans were capable of creating a functional mass relay of their own, its not unlikely that their beam cannon and majority of advanced ship tech was also theirs.  A wide sweeping rant, but overall point is researching the base is not just researching another dead Reaper, its a very, very different situation.
While dispelling ridiculous ideas about why its renegade to study the tech, there is no way the ship would be used to build a new human Reaper.  The number of humans needed, uncertainty about allegiance, and overall lack of understanding about details of the process all suggest this would never happen.  Surely Shepard and others would stop TIM from going that far as well.  However you can learn a lot about how to break something by looking at its blueprints.
While research teams are unlikely to be indoctrinated (imo), it is very possible that the few reaper techs on the collector ship would require a lot of work to understand or even just use.  The Reapers set up the relays and the Citadel on purpose, they are supposed to be user friendly.  The Collector base was not part of the guided development trap, and would not need to be well understood by the Collectors or anyone else who stumbles across it.  However flip side is the Reapers wouldn't likely put the same security measures in to hide their presence or retain control of it.  Saving the base could still result in nothing though, if the technology is so advanced and divergent that it is still worthless by the time the Reapers arrive.  This would be an effective way for Bioware to keep branching storylines reigned together, but its also a cheap way out of the situation.  

The way I ultimately approached this and other obviously large decisions in ME2 was similar Jonny_Evil, except I had little fear of indoctrination issues.  Overwrote the Geth, kept the genophage research, anything that could develop into troops or resources later was the right choice.  Maybe this will result in an easy mode ME3 for my character, hopefully not, hopefully the Reapers are as big a threat as they are portrayed, but only time will tell.  


I write too much
-TrueRedemption

P.S. Jonny_Evil, sacrificing a ton of lives to ensure the safety of the galaxy sounds more like development of the clone army rather than just the Emperor =P

#429
Gvaz

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The technology required to make a reaper is to commit genocide



you can learn about it as long as you don't do it (and he sure as hell would try)

#430
tmp7704

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AtreiyaN7 wrote...

As far as I know, the Reapers can no longer use the Keepers to take direct control of the Citadel or access strategically important information as they did when they destroyed the Protheans ( well, enslaved them really), so we're probably good there. People have been on the Citadel long enough for it to be obvious that there is no Indoctrination going on, either.

Actually when you take into account the Citadel is a base made by the Reapers and intended as central hub for their meal du jour, it puts in quite different light the unwilingness of the Council to acknowledge existence of the Reaper threat...

just sayin' Image IPB

#431
Jonny_Evil

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senojones wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

When you get down to basics. Kill or be killed, hunt or starve, sacrifice a billion for 11 billion and the future, then philosophical musings on morality become a pastime for somebody else. Thankfully we are that somebody else and don't, hopefully ever, have to make decisions like that.


And what if your family and friends are apart of those billions of people sacraficed, is it really that simple? Whats the point of saving the future if you're just gonna destroy all that you've grown to love and care about? Survival is all relative, morality is one of the best parts of being human and sometimes the end result far surpasses any logical choice.


There is no morality in survival. Morality exists when survival is not an issue. If you'd sacrifice the lives of billions and all the trillions of lives yet to come that will now never exist so that you can die with a clear conscience, then that seems more monstrous and selfish to me than the alternative in question. Tyrants can be cast down, horrors overcome, slavery endured and sacrifices made, but once you're extinct, that's it.

@TrueRedemption

What finally tipped me was this. The Prothean technology was obviously insufficient to stop the Reapers, so if you let TIM have it you're not appreciably tipping the galactic balance against them. You may, or may not find anything of use in the Reaper corpse, but what you are definitely doing is taking a power hungry man with a dubious past and instantly elevating him technologically above all of his competitors. That is what he wants at the end, he doesn't give a damn about Reapers, he just wants that Prothean technology to give him an edge over his Citadel and Terminus rivals. That would make him a dangerous rival if his plans and Shepard's cross in the future, without it he's defeated and Cerberus belongs to Shepard.

#432
tmp7704

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Jonny_Evil wrote...

What finally tipped me was this. The Prothean technology was obviously insufficient to stop the Reapers, so if you let TIM have it you're not appreciably tipping the galactic balance against them.

Except the Collectors base isn't Prothean technology. It's Reaper technology with mutated Protheans left to utilize it (and to serve as link through which Harbinger can operate it directly) not unlike the Citadel with its Keepers.

edit: also, Protheans' own technology was at least good enough to deny the Reapers their usual route to activate the Citadel once they actually got the idea what's going on, thus thwarting the next/current full invasion from already happening. So i wouldn't discard it too fast.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 février 2010 - 12:22 .


#433
senojones

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There is no morality in survival. Morality exists when survival is not an issue.


Yes there is, its called faith.

If you'd sacrifice the lives of billions and all the trillions of lives yet to come that will now never exist so that you can die with a clear conscience, then that seems more monstrous and selfish to me than the alternative in question.


Except you are handing power into a Tyrant, you're sacrificing more lives at the chance TIM uses this power for the right reasons, which he won't. Or you can have faith in your team of loyal and trustworthy people, without the help of a tainted advantage. The Reapers are in fact only machines, and EDI put it very well that human unpredictability is something no machine can plan for. Reapers have been around longer than anything in the universe, no one has been able to overcome them with logic or power.

#434
Jonny_Evil

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The only Reaper technology was the system which built the new Reaper, everything else was Prothean. Unless you think that the Normandy is going to be able to cut through a Reaper ship in two shots? As for the Prothean's technology being good enough to thwart the Reapers, look a few pages back. A small bit of unpredictable bio-engineering threw a spanner in the works, all of their weapons, shields, engines, marvels of technology did bugger all to stop the Reapers.

#435
Vaenier

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I dont understand why keeping the base means i automaticaly give it to TIM. Maybe i wana keep it for myself as a summer vacation home. :P
TIM isnt allowed to come over to my exclusice clubhouse.

#436
TheDove

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Its kind of like using an internment camp for a main base. How many people were melted away to create what was made? The base itself is tainted, so it's the renegade choice.

#437
KnightofPhoenix

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Jonny_Evil wrote...

The only Reaper technology was the system which built the new Reaper, everything else was Prothean. Unless you think that the Normandy is going to be able to cut through a Reaper ship in two shots? As for the Prothean's technology being good enough to thwart the Reapers, look a few pages back. A small bit of unpredictable bio-engineering threw a spanner in the works, all of their weapons, shields, engines, marvels of technology did bugger all to stop the Reapers.


The other reaper tech was the ship being able to use the omega 4 relay. If every collector ship had one of those, it's evidence enough that the collectors are using at least reaper / proten hybrid tech. Furthermore, there are advanced forms of husks in the base. That's Reaper tech.
And constructing a reaper is no small feat. It needs a vast technological knowhow. Pure Reaper technological knowhow, and not prothean. And that's not to mention that the collectors themselves are mutated via Reaper tech.
There is enough evidence to show that the Collector Base has strong Reaper influence to it.   

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 février 2010 - 12:47 .


#438
Vaenier

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TheDove wrote...

Its kind of like using an internment camp for a main base. How many people were melted away to create what was made? The base itself is tainted, so it's the renegade choice.

If the internment camp had never before seen technology and a highly defenable position, then I would take that too. Clubhouses are hard to come by these days.

#439
Jonny_Evil

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senojones wrote...

There is no morality in survival. Morality exists when survival is not an issue.

Yes there is, its called faith.

If you'd sacrifice the lives of billions and all the trillions of lives yet to come that will now never exist so that you can die with a clear conscience, then that seems more monstrous and selfish to me than the alternative in question.

Except you are handing power into a Tyrant, you're sacrificing more lives at the chance TIM uses this power for the right reasons, which he won't. Or you can have faith in your team of loyal and trustworthy people, without the help of a tainted advantage. The Reapers are in fact only machines, and EDI put it very well that human unpredictability is something no machine can plan for. Reapers have been around longer than anything in the universe, no one has been able to overcome them with logic or power.


Faith is irrelevant. Without belief in the divine there is no faith, and many, many people don't believe.

I'm not sure where you're going with the second point. We were discussing the far-fetched even for ME concept of sacrificing billions for billions more and the future to survive. The Illusive Man has nothing to do with it, at the start I said I'd do it if I definitely thought it would lead to the survival of everyone else. I certainly wouldn't put that kind of power in the hands of TIM or anyone else because I wouldn't trust them with it. If I wouldn't trust him with Prothean tech I certainly wouldn't trust him with Reaper technology, and I've argued all through the thread for relying on ingenuity and unpredictability over the obsession with ever flashier technology.

#440
Guest_Metopholus_*

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I gave the base to TIM and told him to be ready or i would stop the Reapers without him. kind of bothered me that there is way to 100% agree to remain with Cerberus in the ending. ill take them over the Alliance/council any day. if there is a way to continue to work with them in ME3 i will do so happily.

#441
KnightofPhoenix

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TheDove wrote...

Its kind of like using an internment camp for a main base. How many people were melted away to create what was made? The base itself is tainted, so it's the renegade choice.


I don't see the Allies throwing away all the advancements Germany made via horrible experiments. Nor do I see the major powers rejecting nuclear development after its destructive power was used on civilians.

#442
senojones

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Jonny_Evil wrote...

The only Reaper technology was the system which built the new Reaper, everything else was Prothean. Unless you think that the Normandy is going to be able to cut through a Reaper ship in two shots?


That's just ignorance to think Shepard would take on all of the Reapers with his one ship. The majority of the galaxy has faith in Shepards ability to overcome the Reapers, you can bet they will back him by any means.

As for the Prothean's technology being good enough to thwart the
Reapers, look a few pages back. A small bit of unpredictable
bio-engineering threw a spanner in the works, all of their weapons,
shields, engines, marvels of technology did bugger all to stop the
Reapers.


And look what happened to the Prothean's, they were destroyed and any remaining were enslaved into the Collectors. What did this technology do for the Prothean's survival? Nothing.

#443
TheDove

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TheDove wrote...

Its kind of like using an internment camp for a main base. How many people were melted away to create what was made? The base itself is tainted, so it's the renegade choice.


I don't see the Allies throwing away all the advancements Germany made via horrible experiments. Nor do I see the major powers rejecting nuclear development after its destructive power was used on civilians.


No, but it's still renegade in choice. Just because they did it, doesn't make it any less so.

#444
tmp7704

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Jonny_Evil wrote...

The only Reaper technology was the system which built the new Reaper, everything else was Prothean. Unless you think that the Normandy is going to be able to cut through a Reaper ship in two shots?

I think the fact Normandy is using Reaper technology gun makes it plausible it'd be able to destroy what seems to be primarily cargo ship, even if it's also Reaper-made. Quite like human guns can cut through human-made shields and armour without much problem. It at least makes more sense than the Reapers settling for their secret base to use supposedly very inferior technology of thrall race when they could instead use their own?

#445
KnightofPhoenix

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TheDove wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TheDove wrote...

Its kind of like using an internment camp for a main base. How many people were melted away to create what was made? The base itself is tainted, so it's the renegade choice.


I don't see the Allies throwing away all the advancements Germany made via horrible experiments. Nor do I see the major powers rejecting nuclear development after its destructive power was used on civilians.


No, but it's still renegade in choice. Just because they did it, doesn't make it any less so.


Right. Human history is built by the "renegades". Proud to be one then. (even though my PC is more paragon).

#446
TheDove

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TheDove wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TheDove wrote...

Its kind of like using an internment camp for a main base. How many people were melted away to create what was made? The base itself is tainted, so it's the renegade choice.


I don't see the Allies throwing away all the advancements Germany made via horrible experiments. Nor do I see the major powers rejecting nuclear development after its destructive power was used on civilians.


No, but it's still renegade in choice. Just because they did it, doesn't make it any less so.


Right. Human history is built by the "renegades". Proud to be one then. (even though my PC is more paragon).


If you're being sarcastic, I'm surprised. Humanity does tend to go renegade.

#447
Jonny_Evil

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senojones wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

The only Reaper technology was the system which built the new Reaper, everything else was Prothean. Unless you think that the Normandy is going to be able to cut through a Reaper ship in two shots?


That's just ignorance to think Shepard would take on all of the Reapers with his one ship. The majority of the galaxy has faith in Shepards ability to overcome the Reapers, you can bet they will back him by any means.

As for the Prothean's technology being good enough to thwart the
Reapers, look a few pages back. A small bit of unpredictable
bio-engineering threw a spanner in the works, all of their weapons,
shields, engines, marvels of technology did bugger all to stop the
Reapers.


And look what happened to the Prothean's, they were destroyed and any remaining were enslaved into the Collectors. What did this technology do for the Prothean's survival? Nothing.


I'm talking about the Collector ship destroyed during the assault on the base. If it had been Reaper technology it wouldn't have been blasted apart by a frigate. And you've just taken what I said and agreed with it while sounding like you don't.

#448
senojones

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Faith is irrelevant. Without belief in the divine there is no faith, and many, many people don't believe.

Since when has faith been only exclusive to believing in a divine purpose?

-Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
-Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
-Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance
-A set of principles or beliefs.

Those are all definitions to what faith is. Yes the idea of a divine being with religion is apart of what faith means, but its not the context of what I ment.

Modifié par senojones, 03 février 2010 - 12:55 .


#449
KnightofPhoenix

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TheDove wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TheDove wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TheDove wrote...

Its kind of like using an internment camp for a main base. How many people were melted away to create what was made? The base itself is tainted, so it's the renegade choice.


I don't see the Allies throwing away all the advancements Germany made via horrible experiments. Nor do I see the major powers rejecting nuclear development after its destructive power was used on civilians.


No, but it's still renegade in choice. Just because they did it, doesn't make it any less so.


Right. Human history is built by the "renegades". Proud to be one then. (even though my PC is more paragon).


If you're being sarcastic, I'm surprised. Humanity does tend to go renegade.


I am not being sarcastic. I like humanity as it is. If it's renegade, then so be it.

#450
Vaenier

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No one knows how saving the base automatically means TIM gets it? I am so confused >..<

I have the only ship to get there. Why does TIM get to keep the cool clubhouse? I want it :'(