582 réponses à ce sujet

[john william]

Ugh. You guys live in fairy tale land! I make no apologies for keeping it. It will save lives!

[darthdrake201]

I mostly went with renegade missions but my goals were mostly helping krogans/quarians/legion and instead of making the illusive man the master of the galaxy with an technology that feeds on humans and I could most definitely see an monarchy appearing under him.

[Killian113]

For me the whole "renegade" idea basically boils down to "the end justifies the means". Which the choice of keeping the collector base would fall under that.

[uberman409]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

john william wrote...

Bioware's morality makes about as much sense here as the whole "destroy the council/save the council" dilemma at the end of ME1.  Which is to say none at all.  I actually resisted the urge to keep the collector base but I couldn't argue against Illusive Man's cold, hard logic.  There's no question that the galactic civilization is better off with the treasure trove of secrets that is the collector base.

At the end of WW2 it came to light that both the Germans and the Japanese conducted horrifying experiments on live human subjects and made certain breakthroughs because of it.  Would the allies have performed those same experiments.  Of course not.  Did the allies throw their research away?  Hell freaking naw!

Well the Japanese and German are HUMAN no? What makes you think the same spieces that commit the same horrid deeds could refrain from repeating them? I simply CANNOT entrust the fate of the universe to humanity. And that is that. The same way I didn't think the counsel was worth saving back in ME1, but I had to, because humanity is far worse. We don't deserve to be heading the counsel. And that is that.

You're a moron. I'm not sorry. You just are. Humanity isn't any worse than any other sentient race. Humanity isn't inherently evil just because some of its members decided to make evil decisions. You can't judge humanity evil just because it is capable of evil, as ALL people are capable of evil.

Humanity didn't unleash a disease which crippled the viability rate of the children of an entire species by modifying the very genetic structure of that species. A GROUP of Salarians, Turians, and Asari did. Now, that doesn't mean that those species are evil, just that those people who committed the acts did evil things. Perhaps they felt it was the right thing. However, are the Salarians evil? Are the Turians evil? Are the Asari evil? NO.

If you're going to be a misanthrope, do the world a favor and start the purge of humanity with yourself.

[falloutgod13]

You know injections of saline solution is a kinky sex fetish. Makes things swell-up and probably hurts. I don't recommend it. Now imagine an entire body full of saline solution. Maybe I'm just sick in the head but it's fascinating to me. Only down side to being morbidly curious is you don't need a doctor to tell you someone is dead. Really messed with my head when I found my mom dead on Christmas eve, she had hung her self with an extension chord. The EMS guy on the phone was telling me to give her CPR. I had to pry her mouth open and the tongue was swollen. There was no damn pulse and he wanted me to give mouth to mouth to my mothers corpse. Sick bastard. BTW. Christmas is the worst holiday ever, I put it right about valentines day as the holiday I hate the most.

[xThunderblazex]

Because you should know by then, that he would abduct human colonies on his own in order to see how Reapers are created, and possibly even create a small scale Reaper.

Modifié par xThunderblazex, 01 février 2010 - 06:46 .

[stillnotking]

john william wrote...

Ugh. You guys live in fairy tale land! I make no apologies for keeping it. It will save lives!

Cerberus already proved, with the derelict ship, that Reaper tech can't be adapted to human use on a large scale.  Even installing the tiny little Reaper IFF, with an AI to safeguard it, had disastrous consequences.

Trying to "use" a Reaper base isn't the Renegade option, it's the Hasn't Been Paying Attention option.  <_<

Modifié par stillnotking, 01 février 2010 - 06:47 .

[Abirn]

DirtyVagrant wrote...

Reaper technology tends to lead to... indoctrination. Plus the Illusive Man will likely use the technology as a big stick to dominate the other races of the galaxy.

I chose to keep the base knowing full well that the Illusive Man will likely try and use the base to dominate in the future in the name of humanity.  Why?  Because Taking out Cerberus can be done later on and is probably a bit easier to accomplish than trying to defend against an entire fleet of a super advanced race that has proven it has the ability to exterminate life all over the galaxy.  

The job of wiping out Cerberus is probably worth the risk in terms of obtaining usefull information to defend ourselfs from extinction,  Renegade or Paragon doesn't matter I still view it as the necessary choice.

[uberman409]

Dammit Falloutgod, I really don't need that thought right now. Please refrain from posting crazy stuff like that in the future. >.<

[Lukertin]

john william wrote...
What the heck are you talking about?  Did I say those specific things were breakthroughs?  But if you must know, off the top of my head, I'm pretty sure that much of what we know about the effects of extreme cold on the human body is thanks to those ****s.

Yea...what we know about the effects of extreme cold on the human body.  Because there's no way any doctors who worked in say, Siberia or Alaska had any idea what the cold did to the human body long before WW2.

btw, love how you chose to respond to this part of my post, but you totally ignore the part of my post that utterly demolished your entire argument.

Modifié par Lukertin, 01 février 2010 - 06:50 .

[Riot Inducer]

To answer the title's question it's because it's all reaper technology that has the nasty tendency to backfire on those using it making them the ones being used instead. Also you're handing this base over to Cerberus, the very definition of a renegade group. It's risky but holds the possibility for great power, power that will be firmly in the hands of an extremist human group. Sure Cerberus might be able to make some great weapons to fight the Reapers off with but when it's all said and done do you think they'd just start sharing this tech with the rest of the galaxy? The only sharing that'd be going on would be exchanges of weapon fire.



Really though what it all boiled down too was me remembering all the Cerberus bases I raided in ME1; Kuhoku's men killed by thresher maws just as an experiment, Toombs being used as a human lab rat for years, the horrors inflicted upon Jack and the other biotic children. Then I looked at what I had seen of this Collector base; the ability to create husks, seeker swarms and who knows what else, millions of pods designed to literally melt down organics for use as building material. Now, given all the inhumane **** Cerberus managed to do without husk-spikes and people-melters I didn't even want to consider what they might get to doing with this stuff.



But then that's just my opinion of Cerberus in a nutshell anyways, as much as the go on about advancing humanity they are too quick to forget their own humanity to do it. So at the end of the day what are they really fighting for? It's not the good of humanity that's for sure.

[RakothX]

Keeping the Collector base, judging from all the evidence we have seen thus far of... well, anything, with Reaper tech influencing its design, is like deciding to keep R'lyeh for study instead of sinking it back to the bottom of the sea. In both cases, you all gon' die. Probably horrifically.

[Giantevilhead]

In the first game, there was a mission where you find a ship that was full of husks due to a Reaper artifact they discovered so obviously Reaper technology can make people go crazy. There's also the fact that Cerberus conducts experiments on humans. They used humans to experiment on Thresher Maws, Rachni, Thorian Creepers, they also used the Dragon's Teeth to create husks. Giving them control of the Collector base is just a bad idea. Even if the base doesn't influence people's minds, Cerberus is going to use it to experiment on people. Heck, they might decide to make a husk army of their own.

Modifié par Giantevilhead, 01 février 2010 - 06:49 .

[john william]

xThunderblazex wrote...

Because you should know by then, that he would abduct human colonies on his own in order to see how Reapers are created, and possibly even create a small scale Reaper.

I don't see how you could ever draw that conclusion.  Is the Illusive Man twisted?  Heck yeah.  Would he destroy an entire alien race to protect humanity?  Yes.  Would he create a reaper by murdering millions of humans?  Why on earth would he do that?

I trust the Illusive Man to be the Illusive Man.  Besides, nothing says that the good guys can't get control of the collector base.

[falloutgod13]

How is a husk army a bad thing? The vast majority of people and aliens are useless and not helping you in any way. Turn them into mindless cannon fodder and they actually serve a purpose.

[Thrakkesh]

Two reasons:

One: It's Cerebrus.

Two: Because running into  Reaper Tech has worked out so well for Saren, Benezia, the scientists on the Derelict Reaper, and the Heretic Geth.

[john william]

I just always put forth the question: What would Jack Bauer do?



He'd have kept the base.

[stillnotking]

Besides, nothing says that the good guys can't get control of the collector base.

... except everything that's happened so far in both games.

[Harkmagic]

john william wrote...

  Would he create a reaper by murdering millions of humans?  Why on earth would he do that?

Well he has already murdered entire human colonies just to see how Dragons Teeth and Husk work, I can't imagine him having to much of a problem with that. Plus he probably can throw aliens in ther to make it work anyway.

[falloutgod13]

A Reaper is a sentient machine, it's own nation and with freewill. Constructing one would be like sticking dynamite in "URANUS" and lighting the fuse. I highly doubt that TIM is that much of an idiot.

[john william]

Lukertin wrote...

btw, love how you chose to respond to this part of my post, but you totally ignore the part of my post that utterly demolished your entire argument.

The rest of your argument made no sense.  They used reaper tech to get through omega 4.  Had they not used it, the collectors would have built their new god and led the destruction of galactic society.

[Vendrin]

I just wish they allowed you to keep the base and turn it over to the council as a nice middle road. Normandy is the only ship with the IFF so you could control who has access.

[BlaiseVoltaire]

Lukertin wrote...

john william wrote...

Bioware's morality makes about as much sense here as the whole "destroy the council/save the council" dilemma at the end of ME1.  Which is to say none at all.  I actually resisted the urge to keep the collector base but I couldn't argue against Illusive Man's cold, hard logic.  There's no question that the galactic civilization is better off with the treasure trove of secrets that is the collector base.

Yea, his cold hard logic has absolutely no problems.  TIM == man who can't, or doesn't want to, learn from his mistakes.  Send science team to lock down Reaper ship to take technology?  Utter failure.  Use Reaper technology to modify the Normandy?  Oops.  I can only imagine what disaster will befall whoever gets sent to study the Collector base.  Perhaps you will get a situation like in the movie Event Horizon.  TIM's logic is incredibly suspicious and nonsensical

At the end of WW2 it came to light that both the Germans and the Japanese conducted horrifying experiments on live human subjects and made certain breakthroughs because of it.  Would the allies have performed those same experiments.  Of course not.  Did the allies throw their research away?  Hell freaking naw!

They made certain breakthroughs?  Really?  How is injecting color into people's eyes in an attempt to change iris color a medical breakthrough when those people all ended up blind?  Or injecting salt water into a human while you drain out his blood to see what happens?  I'm really curious as to what kind of scientific understanding these experiments have brought to light, and how we all have benefited.

Honestly, this post won the thread. Sums up everything accurately, in my opinion.

[SpideyKnight]

It's a fairy tale world, meaning that we know there's going to be a way to save the universe without it. So when given the choice, there's no reason to compromise our morals. In a real world situation like the one you mentioned we would take the easy path, as that is human. Shepard says it best when he talks to Jacob. It wouldn't be called the high road if it was easy.

[I SuPreMacY 32I]

I was paragon, but here was the way I see it. Reaper technology does what? enslaves and kills. Even though I am very pro human and let the council die, I'm not willing to hand power as great as this to cerberus.



Even if Cerberus, upon making their own reaper, were to do everythin favor of humans it's not worth the price. thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions of lives would perish for that to accomplish. And even if Cerberus were to make an alien reaper out of turians i'm not willing to sacrifice that many lives for it. I would much rather risk them all in conventional warfare.



On top of that. we would be handing cerberus the ability to enslave and control, not to mention POSSESS the minds and bodies of everyone. Given that, I don't trust Cerberus, or the descendants of cerberus down the line, to control all life in the galaxy. Nothing would be stopping them from enslaving humans as well.