582 réponses à ce sujet

[Sniper11709]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Johnny evil. I already pointed this out, but you conveniently ignore it and keep refering back to the same argument. What about TIME? Do the council races have time to develop new technology that isn't based on the mass relays? What the Protheans did didn't save them at the end, though it helped us. And they had all the time in the world.
All the technology is based on the mass relays. Any derivative is still derivied from Reaper Tech. The only way to create a totally new technology is to use something not based on the mass relays, aka develop something entirely new. That requires a huge amount of time and ressources to achieve.
Urgency plays a huge role in decision making. When preserving the base, the sense of urgency was a strong factor.

And as I keep pointing out, but you conveniently ignore, they don't have to develop these technologies from nothing. GARDIAN lasers are in common usage, there's never been a need to develop them to a larger scale because ME weapons work against other non-reaper ships just as well. All they need is materials research into maintaining a larger version. Plasma drive exhausts are most likely dangerous, is there any way to weaponise them? You do not need to develop something entirely from scratch, there are plenty of technologies that could be upscaled and weaponised, that were never bothered with because ME technology is easier to use. You don't need to start from scratch.

Actully GARDIAN lasars are just as much in the Reaper tech line as the Railguns. Do you honestly think intelligent races only thought of weapons that bypassed Kinetic Barriers in this cycle, me personally i would say no and that the reapers have already faced tech just like the GARDIAN.

The diffrence between this cycle and the other ones is that we had warning and we were able to (with prothean help) prevent the reapers returning from immmediatly right into the heart of the galactic goverment. This time they won't be able to shut down the Mass Relays otherwise soverign would have done it before he attacked (or just after he went through). This means that Galactic forces won't be stranded in little packets all over the place and they will still have communications enabling coordinated defenses. This means that this cycle is an entirely diffrent fight compared to the last ones so sufficently advanced eezo based tech could prove sufficent to win. Now i'm not saying that other lines shouldn't be persued if possible but  i think they should be things that supplement eezo based tech, not replace.

Also as i mentioned it could be the faction playing with dark energy that will provide us with the tech to stand a chance to win.


Edit: I think someone else said it as well but i'll just put it in my own words as well.
The only reason the races in this cycle stand a chance is because the protheans were able to advance sufficiently down the eezo tech path to build a miniature Mass Relay and then to hack Reaper tech, they didn't do anything else because there was only a handful of them so they couldn't do anything else.

Modifié par Sniper11709, 03 février 2010 - 02:04 .

[Jarys]

Harbringer is a reaper. The 'harbringer' that we saw was a collector that was being controlled by a reaper. As in it is likely that anyone who enters that area of the station or activates a certain console can be controlled by them. As in someone (probably a very high ranking scientist or some such) will end up controlled by a reaper, and be going back to the citadel.

Modifié par Jarys, 03 février 2010 - 03:54 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jonny_Evil wrote...
And as I keep pointing out, but you conveniently ignore, they don't have to develop these technologies from nothing. GARDIAN lasers are in common usage, there's never been a need to develop them to a larger scale because ME weapons work against other non-reaper ships just as well. All they need is materials research into maintaining a larger version. Plasma drive exhausts are most likely dangerous, is there any way to weaponise them? You do not need to develop something entirely from scratch, there are plenty of technologies that could be upscaled and weaponised, that were never bothered with because ME technology is easier to use. You don't need to start from scratch.

Seeing how the Reapers did the cycle God knows how many times, I am pretty sure they already faced waepons like this. And seeing the numbers they have, I doubt gardian lasers would be able to defeat them.
EDIT: not to mention that all space flight is based on Element zero. They can't develop new tech from scratch for space travel. IT's like asking all nations today to stop using fossil fuels and develop a new kind of energy source overnight. Things like that take time and ressources. Both of which we do not have against the imminent Reaper threat.

And your logic is very flawed. How do you hope to create a weapon to defeat the Reapers if you want to destroy the only thing that can allow you to study them?
The base very likely can provide us with ensight on an enemy we know nothing about. It's where Reapers are created. It had to have pure Reaper technology that can allow us to study them. At the very least, we would uncover their weaknesses and avoid surprises. And possibly even uncover reaper technology that can be used against them.

And now you will say it's impossible to use Reaper tech against the Reapers. I say it depends on how we use it. The Prothean genius was not altering the keepers really (and the keepers are Reaper tech). But it was the conduit. It was replicating Reaper tech and using it against the Reapers in a way they never thought of. That is a prime example of using Reaper technology in unconventional ways and even the Reapers can, and have been taken by surprise.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 février 2010 - 04:29 .

[tmp7704]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

You can tell it's not Reaper technology by the aesthetics involved. Reaper technology has a dark metallic sheen to it and tends to sweeping curves with a touch of lovecraftian horror. The Collector ship and base had a lot of rough stone, hexagonal designs, organic looking technology, waste piles, and a rusty orange colour scheme. They pretty much looked exactly like high tech insect hives, and the Collectors/Protheans were insects.

What you describe as "reaper aesthetics" is the appearance of reapers themselves. But then consider the Citadel which is also Reaper technology yet looks nothing like that. It is reasonable to expect race of sentient machines not to give two damns about 'aesthetics' and simply tailor their technology --appearance included-- to the task at hand -- hence Citadel being the way it is, and the Collectors assets being tailored to match the Collectors themselves (who if you remember were actually modified by the Reapers to suit their task)

Also consider Prothean technology on Ilos and other places in ME1. It had very little in common with what we see in ME2 appearance-wise. None of that hexagonal hive design, none of the rough stone. Straight angles, storage based on grid patterns, very different colours. Too little imo to claim the Collectors' stuff was Protheans' own devices.

[tmp7704]

Jarys wrote...

Harbringer is a reaper. The 'harbringer' that we saw was a collector that was being controlled by a reaper. As in it is likely that anyone who enters that area of the station or activates a certain console can be controlled by them. As in someone (probably a very high ranking scientist or some such) will end up controlled by a reaper, and be going back to the citadel.

It's stated in game Codex the Collectors are controlled through certain brain implants present in every of their drones. They are specifically built with a receiver for the Reaper signal.

[TrueRedemption]

Another thing to consider...
What the Protheans did successfully was very similar to what could result from studying the base. Protheans studied the relays, studied the Keepers, studied all sorts of Reaper tech. This had been done before (or at least attempted, Keepers are hard to scan/get data on) but the ingenuity of the Protheans was their decision not to try and develop some type of weapon, but to consider the Reapers' plan, and then throw the biggest wrench in it they could manage.
The Protheans didn't try to breed, re-establish their species, then spend a cycle preparing for war. They didn't even leave a message on the citadel warning the next cycle of the threat and telling them to prepare for war. They went to the Citadel and locked the Reapers in dark space forever, or so they believed. The Keepers didn't activate the Citadel when they were supposed to, so somehow the Reapers got Sovereign to the galaxy, and ME1 occurred. That failed, so next they tried using the Collectors to build a new Reaper. What exactly the plan was after its completion isn't certain, maybe it would've tried to reactivate the Citadel like Sovereign, important point is once again it was cut off before it could happen.
The connecting trend of these three victories over the Reapers is not development of some new weapon nor perseverance in a toe to toe fight. Sure we barely defeated Sovereign but it was distracted, busy attempting to overcome the Prothean developed systems block preventing Citadel activation. If not for that distraction I expect many more ships would have been lost.

So the point of all this is simple: what is the Reapers' next move, and how can we use that knowledge to give us a chance. Maybe Shepard isn't destined to truly defeat the Reapers, only delay all of their early attempts at reaching the galaxy. Maybe we are going to let the Reapers activate the Citadel, but were going to have a huge mass of dark matter waiting for them so they all jump through the relay only to land in our trap. There are many possibilities, and only Bioware can know for sure.
Given this perspective, its uncertain if the Collector ship will provide anything of use. The Protheans helped out big time in stopping the first and second attempts the Reapers made, proving they have the technology to cause the Reapers trouble, not directly but indirectly. Saving the base may mean saving some tech which lets Shepard repel the fourth attempt. At the same time maybe TIM will only be looking for weapons applicable tech, he generally seems a resourceful guy who sees the value of any advantage, but maybe he (like many people on this forum) is caught up in thinking we have to beat the Reapers in direct combat. Think Salarian tactics, not Krogan. If all it takes in ME3 is a uniting of the all the races to fight the Reaper fleet then the Reapers are not the threat they have been built up to be. Flip side of the same coin though, it should take a lot more than one trick from Shepard to wipe out them out.

Maybe we are reading too far into the paragon / renegade part of the decision about the base. In Mordin's loyalty mission the big decision regarding genophage research has inconsistent responses, at first it is paragon to call the research sick, and neutral to consider saving it. Then the next dialog choice is it paragon to keep it, renegade to delete it. Maybe this is similar, perhaps Bioware had a shortcoming in this decision, and it should have been one which the two choices were right and left middle, or maybe make a third choice that was renegade, telling off TIM and taking the collector base as your own or something =P (credit to whoever was talking about making it a club house earlier) Just my thoughts, maybe I'm still missing something, love the discussion.


-True Redemption

Modifié par TrueRedemption, 03 février 2010 - 04:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

TrueRedemption wrote...

Given this perspective, its uncertain if the Collector ship will provide anything of use. The Protheans helped out big time in stopping the first and second attempts the Reapers made, proving they have the technology to cause the Reapers trouble, not directly but indirectly. Saving the base may mean saving some tech which lets Shepard repel the fourth attempt. At the same time maybe TIM will only be looking for weapons applicable tech, he generally seems a resourceful guy who sees the value of any advantage, but maybe he (like many people on this forum) is caught up in thinking we have to beat the Reapers in direct combat. Think Salarian tactics, not Krogan. If all it takes in ME3 is a uniting of the all the races to fight the Reaper fleet then the Reapers are not the threat they have been built up to be. Flip side of the same coin though, it should take a lot more than one trick from Shepard to wipe out them out.

I mostly agree. However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be prepared for the possibilty of direct confrontation. Perhaps the traps we can set up won't work as they are supposed to. What do we do after that?

That's why preserving the base is very likely (though not necessarily of course) going to provide us with valuable knowledge about the reapers' weaknesses, or maybe even purpose / plan. In addition, the technoogy can be reversed engineered to create new waepons, should it come to a direct fight.  

[tmp7704]

TrueRedemption wrote...

In Mordin's loyalty mission the big decision regarding genophage research has inconsistent responses, at first it is paragon to call the research sick, and neutral to consider saving it. Then the next dialog choice is it paragon to keep it, renegade to delete it.

They're pretty consistent i think -- the paragon way is to see the research itself as sick because of the methods used. But then it's renegade choice to destroy the results because that keeps the Krogans from possibly overcoming the genophage which is considered to be renegade option itself.

[AuraofMana]

It's not like Renegade option means you are evil anyway, it just means you believe that the end justify the means. Cerberus actually get **** done and believe you, unlike the Council who refuse to believe you THREE times now (and proven wrong all three times). They also blew 4+ billion credits on saving your ass. They definitely want something out of this, and I am completely fine with it. Without them, I would be dead. If using the Collector's base would help humanity's dominance in the galaxy, then just take the damn thing. Arguing that it is Reaper tech is stupid. Why haven't you blew up the Citadel and the Mass Relays then? Those are Reaper tech.

Exactly.

[jayeto]

it all comes back to one thing though...... how can you use tech against the people that made the tech in the first place. do you really think that reapers wouldnt havea fail safe for that ship. they built tech before humans where even a thought in the ME universe. trying to use there tech on them would be pointless (and on top of TIM being a power hunger maniac). the only thing you could do with that thing is wave it in fornt of the idiot council (dont even get me started on them.....i wish i left them ><) and say "REAPERS ARE REAL DUMB SH****!!!" and walk away. (but since the reapers come out and show themselves at the end anyway ......the prolly already went " .......aww **** me." so you keep it out of evils hands (TIM) and save the galaxy anyway. besides your SHEPARD you beat saren, kicked soverigns arse, smashed numerous geth heritics to tiny peices, put out the blue suns light, dried out the bloodpact, sperated the eclipse back to the sun and the moon!!! you dont need reaper tech to whoop the oil, blood watev the reapers run on out of them. your presences alone will scare the ****** out of them. ......now push the button and go kill reapers in ME3 >

[KnightofPhoenix]

jayeto wrote...

it all comes back to one thing though...... how can you use tech against the people that made the tech in the first place. do you really think that reapers wouldnt havea fail safe for that ship. they built tech before humans where even a thought in the ME universe. trying to use there tech on them would be pointless (and on top of TIM being a power hunger maniac). the only thing you could do with that thing is wave it in fornt of the idiot council (dont even get me started on them.....i wish i left them >

The Protheans used Reaper tech in a way that the Reapers never expected and thanks to them, the Reapers weren't able to invade. That's the classic example of using Reaper tech against the Reapers.
We used a Reaper code in order to travel via the Omega 4 relay. Thats another example.

And who said anything about using? That's not necessary. One can study Reaper technology. Uncover its weaknesses. Medical advancements go hand in hand with advancement in poison making. Since the collector base is the place where a Reaper was being built, then it could very likely provide us with schematics, blueprints. We would know how a Reaper is created. That would uncover many weaknesses.

And if indeed the technology can be reversed engineered and used as a weapon, then that's also good. Since we would have uncovered their weaknesses, we can use their own waepons more effevitvely. Again, that's not necessary. But it's a possibility. The Protheans studied Reaper tech, replicated it, and used it ingenuisely to indirectly weaken the reapers. 

About TIM. That's the only real valid logic about destroying the base. It comes down to whether you trust TIM or not. I personally do. Cerberus has the technology and will to study the Reapers and uncover whatever assets and info that can be used. I trust TIM more than I trust the Alliance and the council, both of which have already turned their backs on me.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 février 2010 - 05:01 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

InvaderErl wrote...

Trying to use the Reapers backfires. It backfired on Saren and it backfired on those who boarded the Derelict Reaper.

That and Illusive Man admits he wants it for less than noble purposes.

Blow the damn thing to hell.

That is the same stance my Renegade FemShep took when she blew the darn base up, sure she has a ruthless streak, don't trust many aliens unless they prove themselves useful and similar thinking. But she trusts Cerberus even less. She gave them Legion but no way she'd give them that base. They messed up before when dealing with reaper technology, no way she going to let them mess things up again. One thing for sure, bet TIM is wishing he had put a control chip in Shep now

[jayeto]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jayeto wrote...

it all comes back to one thing though...... how can you use tech against the people that made the tech in the first place. do you really think that reapers wouldnt havea fail safe for that ship. they built tech before humans where even a thought in the ME universe. trying to use there tech on them would be pointless (and on top of TIM being a power hunger maniac). the only thing you could do with that thing is wave it in fornt of the idiot council (dont even get me started on them.....i wish i left them >

The Protheans used Reaper tech in a way that the Reapers never expected and thanks to them, the Reapers weren't able to invade. That's the classic example of using Reaper tech against the Reapers.
We used a Reaper code in order to travel via the Omega 4 relay. Thats another example.

And who said anything about using? That's not necessary. One can study Reaper technology. Uncover its weaknesses. Medical advancements go hand in hand with advancement in poison making. Since the collector base is the place where a Reaper was being built, then it could very likely provide us with schematics, blueprints. We would know how a Reaper is created. That would uncover many weaknesses.

And if indeed the technology can be reversed engineered and used as a weapon, then that's also good. Since we would have uncovered their weaknesses, we can use their own waepons more effevitvely. Again, that's not necessary. But it's a possibility. The Protheans studied Reaper tech, replicated it, and used it ingenuisely to indirectly weaken the reapers. 

About TIM. That's the only real valid logic about destroying the base. It comes down to whether you trust TIM or not. I personally do. Cerberus has the technology and will to study the Reapers and uncover whatever assets and info that can be used. I trust TIM more than I trust the Alliance and the council, both of which have already turned their backs on me.

ok 1st ......i wrote this like 3 mins ago and you all this thats not fair j/k j/k XD.

2nd very true on studing the reaper tech but its been done in ME1 the (inmatating a zombie) indoctranation thing. now getting getting weapon stuff ehh yes/no kinda thing after all there not laser proof .........damn wait bioware scratch i said that. but the can be hurt by or weapons i should say. plus the reaper tech uses living organics in or to create it tech (EDI tells you this when you first look at it and invesigate on it). as for a weakness its shields might be the only factor but hell titanium wears down if u shoot it enuff. and trusting TIM is like trusting .....matter fact i dont wanna open that can we'll just say TIM is out for "HUMANITY'S goal" which is evil right there. hell he said he wanted to make humanity the DOMINATE speicies in the galaxy. if that does say "Hey im evil its nice to meet you" i dont know what does then. BUT to each his own blowing it up could screw the galaxy over and we lose but the same can go for saving it to. we'll see on ME3.

....ok i think i wrote enuff. not as much as you but enuff..... i think lol

[KnightofPhoenix]

jayeto wrote...
2nd very true on studing the reaper tech but its been done in ME1 the (inmatating a zombie) indoctranation thing. now getting getting weapon stuff ehh yes/no kinda thing after all there not laser proof .........damn wait bioware scratch i said that. but the can be hurt by or weapons i should say. plus the reaper tech uses living organics in or to create it tech (EDI tells you this when you first look at it and invesigate on it). as for a weakness its shields might be the only factor but hell titanium wears down if u shoot it enuff. and trusting TIM is like trusting .....matter fact i dont wanna open that can we'll just say TIM is out for "HUMANITY'S goal" which is evil right there. hell he said he wanted to make humanity the DOMINATE speicies in the galaxy. if that does say "Hey im evil its nice to meet you" i dont know what does then. BUT to each his own blowing it up could screw the galaxy over and we lose but the same can go for saving it to. we'll see on ME3.

....ok i think i wrote enuff. not as much as you but enuff..... i think lol

We didn't study the Reapers in depth in ME1. Saren was studying indoctrination, but not us or Cerberus.
The collector base was actually building a goddamn reaper. It's a treasure full of Reaper secrets I think. You can't just build a Reaper without having the appropriate facilities and technolgical know how that we can study.
and we don't need to create a reaper of our own. In fact I doubt TIM would do that. We could just study it. Maybe reverse engineer it. Who knows, the possibilities are endless. Too big of an opportunity to pass by.

I personally don't mind human dominance and I do not see it as evil. At all. So that will remain a personal opinion. Which is what I said. It will come down to whether you trust TIM or not. I do and I certainly do not consider him "evil".

And I doubt bioware will make any of the decisions result in defeat or disaster. both choices will be good depending on perspective, with soem negative side effects, again depending on perspectives.
I do not think Bioware will go like "Ha! You made the wrong choice ******! Game over"

[Jonny_Evil]

tmp7704 wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...

You can tell it's not Reaper technology by the aesthetics involved. Reaper technology has a dark metallic sheen to it and tends to sweeping curves with a touch of lovecraftian horror. The Collector ship and base had a lot of rough stone, hexagonal designs, organic looking technology, waste piles, and a rusty orange colour scheme. They pretty much looked exactly like high tech insect hives, and the Collectors/Protheans were insects.

What you describe as "reaper aesthetics" is the appearance of reapers themselves. But then consider the Citadel which is also Reaper technology yet looks nothing like that. It is reasonable to expect race of sentient machines not to give two damns about 'aesthetics' and simply tailor their technology --appearance included-- to the task at hand -- hence Citadel being the way it is, and the Collectors assets being tailored to match the Collectors themselves (who if you remember were actually modified by the Reapers to suit their task)

Also consider Prothean technology on Ilos and other places in ME1. It had very little in common with what we see in ME2 appearance-wise. None of that hexagonal hive design, none of the rough stone. Straight angles, storage based on grid patterns, very different colours. Too little imo to claim the Collectors' stuff was Protheans' own devices.

The Citadel and the Relays still share the shame dark metallic sheen and curved lines as the Reapers. The Collector base and ship are utterly different.

And for the last time, the Conduit was absolutely irrelevant to the Protheans ability to alter the Keepers. It was merely a form of travel to the Citadel, one that could have easily been replaced with a ship using the Relays if not for it's plot critical nature at the end of ME. The protheans threw a massive spanner in the works by not using their technology, that's the whole point of the tale.

And there are plenty of techs in Mass Effect totally unrelated to any Reaper technology. Plasma drive systems, GARDIAN lasers, Omnitools, all do not use eezo and weren't inspired by anything the Reapers left behind. The Reapers are unlikely to have ever encountered a dreadnought sized laser or plasma weapon, because as people keep saying they attack by surprise, and unless you know that eezo technology is a trap then it is generally superior in reliability, flexibility and ease of use to other comparable weapon technologies. You have to deliberately turn away from ME technology to use other methods, and without knowing of the Reapers there is no reason to.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jonny_Evil wrote...
And for the last time, the Conduit was absolutely irrelevant to the Protheans ability to alter the Keepers. It was merely a form of travel to the Citadel, one that could have easily been replaced with a ship using the Relays if not for it's plot critical nature at the end of ME. The protheans threw a massive spanner in the works by not using their technology, that's the whole point of the tale.

And there are plenty of techs in Mass Effect totally unrelated to any Reaper technology. Plasma drive systems, GARDIAN lasers, Omnitools, all do not use eezo and weren't inspired by anything the Reapers left behind. The Reapers are unlikely to have ever encountered a dreadnought sized laser or plasma weapon, because as people keep saying they attack by surprise, and unless you know that eezo technology is a trap then it is generally superior in reliability, flexibility and ease of use to other comparable weapon technologies. You have to deliberately turn away from ME technology to use other methods, and without knowing of the Reapers there is no reason to.

I suggest you replay ME1. Without the Conduit, the Prothean survivors couldn't go back to the citadel. They didn't have any ships left. It's not irrelevent at all. The possibility to construct conduits anywhere you want, instead of using relays that the Reapers know exactly where they are, offers a huge strategic advantage. Furthermore, the keepers are bio engineered by the Reapers and the Protheans studied them, thus were able to destroy / alter their signal and make sure that the keepers are only controlled by the citael itself. That's clear manipualtion of Reaper tech. They studied Reaper tech, reverse engineered it / altered it (keepers) and that worked. The Protheans did not create any new technology.

Furthermore Vigil gives Shepard the data created by the Protheans to control the Citadel. That is also the result of studying Reaper technology and reverse engineering it.

And once again, all your suggestions are next to useless if you don't actually study the reapers and uncover their weaknesses. The base could help you do that.
The Collector base is not a pure Prothean construct. It can build reapers and that's pure 100% Reaper tech.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 février 2010 - 05:52 .

[Fulgrim88]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I suggest you replay ME1. Without the Conduit, the Prothean survivors couldn't go back to the citadel. They didn't have any ships left. It's not irrelevent at all. The possibility to construct conduits anywhere you want, instead of using relays that the Reapers know exactly where they are, offers a huge strategic advantage. Furthermore, the keepers are bio engineered by the Reapers and the Protheans studied them, thus were able to destroy / alter their signal and make sure that the keepers are only controlled by the citael itself. That's clear manipualtion of Reaper tech. They studied Reaper tech, reverse engineered it / altered it (keepers) and that worked. The Protheans did not create any new technology.

Which is almost exactly what i wrote a page ago, answering the exact same argument from the same person.

Maybe people should start reading and reply to, what others post, before coming up with the same arguments again.
But then again, this behaviour seems mandatory to threads like this. We wouldn't get 20+ pages in any other way

[john william]

ryujio85 wrote...

The allies were renegade 100% man. Dropping the A-bomb, Screwing the Polish over to ensure peace with Russia and fire bombing the hell out of Germany. I'm glad they did all that **** but it isnt in line with a Paragon character. So I don't understand why you would use their actions as a metaphor for paragon choice.

The problem is that at other points in the game, renegade also means being a bully and even sociopathic.  Bioware's own barometer is muddled.  Besides, if those were the "renegade" options, I have no clue as to how we would have won that war otherwise.

[Series5Ranger]

Look at it this way, With EDI's IFF code in her database, The Normandy may be the only Ship able to use the relays in ME3

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

I agree, rewriting the Geth is hardly fitting that of a Paragon. Especially since earlier one of the "paragon" dialogue choices were ended up with Shepard saying "I'm not going to let them brainwash your people".



It doesn't make sense for suddenly it to be the Paragon choice to go ahead and brainwash them.



Also you can't be against Sovreign's indoctrination and also support brainwashing/rewriting the Geth.

[Doug84]

DirtyVagrant wrote...

Reaper technology tends to lead to... indoctrination. Plus the Illusive Man will likely use the technology as a big stick to dominate the other races of the galaxy.

Agreed - and thats assuming he doesn't become a new Saren through indoctrination.

Additionally, the Collector tech would further funnel the Council races down the road the Reapers want organic live to go down - i.e. more in the route that the Reapers can control.

[Doug84]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I agree, rewriting the Geth is hardly fitting that of a Paragon. Especially since earlier one of the "paragon" dialogue choices were ended up with Shepard saying "I'm not going to let them brainwash your people".

It doesn't make sense for suddenly it to be the Paragon choice to go ahead and brainwash them.

Also you can't be against Sovreign's indoctrination and also support brainwashing/rewriting the Geth.

Brainwash or "genocide" (sort of). Neither opinion is particularly good. Though with the brainwashing, they could at least be sure all Heretic Geth aren't a threat anymore.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

It seems I posted in the wrong thread by mistake



Will just have to make my own topic soon.

[jayeto]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jayeto wrote...
2nd very true on studing the reaper tech but its been done in ME1 the (inmatating a zombie) indoctranation thing. now getting getting weapon stuff ehh yes/no kinda thing after all there not laser proof .........damn wait bioware scratch i said that. but the can be hurt by or weapons i should say. plus the reaper tech uses living organics in or to create it tech (EDI tells you this when you first look at it and invesigate on it). as for a weakness its shields might be the only factor but hell titanium wears down if u shoot it enuff. and trusting TIM is like trusting .....matter fact i dont wanna open that can we'll just say TIM is out for "HUMANITY'S goal" which is evil right there. hell he said he wanted to make humanity the DOMINATE speicies in the galaxy. if that does say "Hey im evil its nice to meet you" i dont know what does then. BUT to each his own blowing it up could screw the galaxy over and we lose but the same can go for saving it to. we'll see on ME3.

....ok i think i wrote enuff. not as much as you but enuff..... i think lol

We didn't study the Reapers in depth in ME1. Saren was studying indoctrination, but not us or Cerberus.
The collector base was actually building a goddamn reaper. It's a treasure full of Reaper secrets I think. You can't just build a Reaper without having the appropriate facilities and technolgical know how that we can study.
and we don't need to create a reaper of our own. In fact I doubt TIM would do that. We could just study it. Maybe reverse engineer it. Who knows, the possibilities are endless. Too big of an opportunity to pass by.

I personally don't mind human dominance and I do not see it as evil. At all. So that will remain a personal opinion. Which is what I said. It will come down to whether you trust TIM or not. I do and I certainly do not consider him "evil".

And I doubt bioware will make any of the decisions result in defeat or disaster. both choices will be good depending on perspective, with soem negative side effects, again depending on perspectives.
I do not think Bioware will go like "Ha! You made the wrong choice ******! Game over"

ok ill give it to you that saren did study indoctranation i meant we as the gamer but true your right allaince or cerberus didnt. but the reapers used human lives to make that reaper hell the reapers are symboitic life forms that have melded organic an machine. as for reverse engineer it .......yea there is a possibilty and its also a posibbilty that it wont work. and as for TIM not making his own reaper THAT i dont put past him. hell its his own words that the ends justfiy the means. so you would sacrfice millions if not billions of lives to save the galaxy?! no theres always another way. if you use the same methods of your enemy to beat your enemy what makes you any better than them....

and human dominance in a galaxy that has been around before mammels worked our planet thats just wrong there no way any human can think that. thats like a 4 yr old walking into a college and saying im higher than you kneel before me (granted if a 4 yr old said that id be alittle on the wtf side). but i know diff of opinion i cant say your right there but i respect it. as you can see though me and my team does not trust TIM and he himself may not seem evil but the way he may go about his motives are. like leigon said 2 people may want the same peice of tech its how go about it to get it judges you character.

and yes bioware wont go "game over should have kept the ship HAHAHA." but one may leave the galaxy alot emptier of a space though. but that what ME is really about what actions you make now the consequences are in your hands for the future like the raccni queen. saving her has proven to be good as she will lend her support to you during the fight against the reapers.

.......you stll answer to fast in my opinion though  jk

[Mister Mage]

TrueRedemption wrote...

Interesting point, I suppose I was too hasty in making that assertion, I'd go back and remove it as I feel the rest of the post is still sound, but I'm not big on loading save states if my choices don't pan out as I'd hoped =P However if you did read the whole thing I'd be interested in your response to any of the other parts, under the impression my actual definition for "correct" being the one I gave at the end of the 2nd paragraph, suggesting any choice is correct if it is the one you felt inclined to at the time. Nice catch.

I hope you end up reading this post, because I'm a few pages late and a job really get to a guy's schedule.  Having two Bioware RPGs doesn't help either.

You're dealing too much in real-world philosophy here, and I think the issue is overcomplicated by your assertions.  What we're dealing with is the internal logic of a universe  counts morality on a point scale.  One kind of action adds a point one way, and one kind of action adds a point to another.  What we end up with is a means by which to discern "right" and "wrong" by the universe's(and thus, the writer's) logic.  Is it right?  That's not the question here.  The question that started the whole thread is WHY IS THIS RENEGADE.  By examining the decisions that are defined as Paragon and Renegade in terms of points, and by looking at the stories provided by other characters in the game, we can see overarching themes that will lead us back to developer reasoning for the decision.  I think you are looking for "right" and "correct" in the "real world", and then applying it to the game.  I, on the other hand, am doing what I think is probably more logical and reverse-engineering the moral logic of the other game decisions and the themes that manifest over the course of both games and various party character arcs.

The problem we have here is that our approaches to the question aren't compatible.  We're looking at it from completely different angles.  I can spend a long time explaining WHY most of your applied logic is incompatible with Mass Effect's game-logic, but I think the core problem is that you're not looking at it in the same direction, and for the sake of mutual understanding and simplification it's probably best to ask that you try and look at it this way for a second, and see what you think of its problem-solving potential.

I hope I wasn't too long-winded in explaining this.

One of the big problems with these discussions is that morality is a polarizing subject.  Applying points to only two categories is a really bold move on Bioware's part.  But that's okay.  That's their issue to sort out what is Paragon and Renegade.  The discussion here can be seen from a really objective, measurable standpoint, which is REALLY useful as far as morality discussions go.

The question isn't "Is this wrong?", but "WHY IS THIS RENEGADE?"

The answer is really simple.  It's part of a big, overall theme that the game yells constantly.  The Paragon way: Build your own future.  Use diplomacy whenever possible.  Cerberus isn't trustworthy.  Unless they hit first and intend to continue hitting, don't hit people.  Don't kill someone that is unarmed.  Help everyone you find in need.

"Right".  "Wrong".  Doesn't matter.  Those things get blue, shiny, happy points that clear away scars.  They build a pattern that can be objectively observed and understood.  Agreeing with them on a moral standpoint isn't required, just seeing that the decision fits into not only the Paragon/Renegade structure on the Renegade side, but also within the overall theme of Mass Effect 2, and to a somewhat lesser extent both games as a cohesive whole.