582 réponses à ce sujet

[pelhikano]

Just a note, the question if Cerberus/TIM is trustworthy becomes fairly irrelevant if all life gets wiped out by the Reapers. I trusted TIM at least so far that he would not attempt to use the base's tech to subjugate the other alien races when a far greater threat is right on the doorstep, and TIM has so far given no indication that he is even closely as idiotic as the council which just closes it's eyes to the threat and goes LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU. What happens "afterwards" (after the galaxy defeats a billion ultra-powerful giant death-robots from the dawn of time, which will be oh-so-easy) seemed just about pointless to worry about, unless you're really really idealistic I think (and my Shepard was mostly paragon even though she saved the base).

[tmp7704]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

The Citadel and the Relays still share the shame dark metallic sheen and curved lines as the Reapers. The Collector base and ship are utterly different.

Unpainted metal looks the same which is hardly surprise, but you're ignoring on the whole the interiors which follow completely different aesthetics.

Regarding Collector ship, it's actually quite similar in overall design to the Citadel in closed form both in shape and layout -- you have the equipment located in the outer hull with the empty area inside running through the length of the ship, and the distinct command ring. It's like Citadel extended with engine section. (http://www.masseffec...p-1600x1200.jpg) The Collector base mimics that form, too. I don't think you can call it completely different when the Citadel is considered to be the same tech simply because it's made out of dark metal.

[Fulgrim88]

I think it would be too far fetched to argument based on design. After all, only a minority of people cares about what we're discussing here. They just want the good stuff to be all nice & shiny and the bad stuff to look, well, bad.

The designers will likely comply to this aesthetical demand, instead of streamlining every Reaper-related tech for the sake of coherence

[tmp7704]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

I think it would be too far fetched to argument based on design. After all, only a minority of people cares about what we're discussing here. They just want the good stuff to be all nice & shiny and the bad stuff to look, well, bad.
The designers will likely comply to this aesthetical demand, instead of streamlining every Reaper-related tech for the sake of coherence

Yes; i don't think it can be really used to determine it one way or another. The Collector tech has appearance that doesn't really clearly match other designs of either Protheans or Reapers, so to decide it cannot possibly be Reaper tech strikes me as too hasty. Especially when i doubt Protheans would be quite able to build such a base in core of the galaxy just with their own technology. When the location is initially discovered Shepard and others comment this could be expected from someone who'd made the Citadel and the relays, and that wasn't the Protheans.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 février 2010 - 07:53 .

[TasuricOrka]

Good thread, wish i had time to read more of it.



Personally i saved the station, i was compelled to because the "We dont need it" paragon option just seemed hopelessly naive and absolute, it's a bs answer to a complex question. Against it, it tainted my train of thought and did the wrong thing.. i wont again.



Secondly i'm pretty convinced both the ship and station were of prothean design. The ship REEKS of retrofitting. It would make no sense for any one race to design a ship with glossy black decorative geometric floors only to cover it up with organic gunk, the whole exterior and interior conflicts on a visual and functional level. I think the reapers took aside a few prothean ships, a fair amount of protheans and a few of their star bases. They re-engineered the protheans and let them refit their ships to suit their new insectoid form.



The only conclusion i could draw from what appears obvious. When inside the collector ship/station i thought "this looks a lot like high charity after the flood outbreak"(halo reference)

[Jonny_Evil]

Fulgrim88 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I suggest you replay ME1. Without the Conduit, the Prothean survivors couldn't go back to the citadel. They didn't have any ships left. It's not irrelevent at all. The possibility to construct conduits anywhere you want, instead of using relays that the Reapers know exactly where they are, offers a huge strategic advantage. Furthermore, the keepers are bio engineered by the Reapers and the Protheans studied them, thus were able to destroy / alter their signal and make sure that the keepers are only controlled by the citael itself. That's clear manipualtion of Reaper tech. They studied Reaper tech, reverse engineered it / altered it (keepers) and that worked. The Protheans did not create any new technology.

Which is almost exactly what i wrote a page ago, answering the exact same argument from the same person.

Maybe people should start reading and reply to, what others post, before coming up with the same arguments again.
But then again, this behaviour seems mandatory to threads like this. We wouldn't get 20+ pages in any other way

I've read your arguments, and I'm still arguing against them because they make no sense to me. Saying that the Conduit proves mastering Reaper tech is essential because it let them access the Citadel is bizarre as any ship could do the same thing. Whether they actually had one or not isn't relevant, conduit there, fly there, click their heels three times and wish to go there, the method of getting there didn't have anything to do with it. Bio-engineering the Keepers is not the technology that the Reapers use to manipulate the galaxy, it doesn't count as following their path. Comparing it to the dangers of relying on the technology that they blatantly do want civilisations to rely on is a disingenuous way of making a point.

This is an impossible argument to finish. You appear to me to blatantly disregard any points I make and stick to an illogical position, I appear to you to blatantly disregard any points you make and stick to an illogical position. It's exactly the same as the save the council decision at the end of ME1, two camps of people absolutely convinced they have the right position and that the others are wrong. We'll just have to wait until ME3 to find out which of us is right.

Just as a parting shot though, this is merely a game, and as far as I can tell Bioware hasn't ever rewarded those who take the Renegade path in the big decisions.

[Fulgrim88]

Jonny_Evil wrote...
I've read your arguments, and I'm still arguing against them because they make no sense to me. Saying that the Conduit proves mastering Reaper tech is essential because it let them access the Citadel is bizarre as any ship could do the same thing. Whether they actually had one or not isn't relevant, conduit there, fly there, click their heels three times and wish to go there, the method of getting there didn't have anything to do with it. Bio-engineering the Keepers is not the technology that the Reapers use to manipulate the galaxy, it doesn't count as following their path. Comparing it to the dangers of relying on the technology that they blatantly do want civilisations to rely on is a disingenuous way of making a point.

And here we are at an impass. For i say that the Collectors base is not something they want us to use, either.
It doesn't count as following their path in my book, as bio-engineering the Keepers doesn't count in yours.

This is an impossible argument to finish. You appear to me to blatantly disregard any points I make and stick to an illogical position, I appear to you to blatantly disregard any points you make and stick to an illogical position. It's exactly the same as the save the council decision at the end of ME1, two camps of people absolutely convinced they have the right position and that the others are wrong. We'll just have to wait until ME3 to find out which of us is right.

That's right, though

Just as a parting shot though, this is merely a game, and as far as I can tell Bioware hasn't ever rewarded those who take the Renegade path in the big decisions.

That's - sadly - likely right as well.

The main reason for me to argument in threads like this is not to ****** of people who made the Paragon choice, but to point the Devs at the complexity of the problem. I'd really, really hate to see keeping the base being reduced to the "Humanity uber alles" jackass choice, with no positive impact on the war whatsoever, and the Paragon choice having zero negative consequences once again.
They are known to read forums, so this might actually be of some use

Modifié par Fulgrim88, 03 février 2010 - 08:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Fulgrim88 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I suggest you replay ME1. Without the Conduit, the Prothean survivors couldn't go back to the citadel. They didn't have any ships left. It's not irrelevent at all. The possibility to construct conduits anywhere you want, instead of using relays that the Reapers know exactly where they are, offers a huge strategic advantage. Furthermore, the keepers are bio engineered by the Reapers and the Protheans studied them, thus were able to destroy / alter their signal and make sure that the keepers are only controlled by the citael itself. That's clear manipualtion of Reaper tech. They studied Reaper tech, reverse engineered it / altered it (keepers) and that worked. The Protheans did not create any new technology.

Which is almost exactly what i wrote a page ago, answering the exact same argument from the same person.

Maybe people should start reading and reply to, what others post, before coming up with the same arguments again.
But then again, this behaviour seems mandatory to threads like this. We wouldn't get 20+ pages in any other way

I've read your arguments, and I'm still arguing against them because they make no sense to me. Saying that the Conduit proves mastering Reaper tech is essential because it let them access the Citadel is bizarre as any ship could do the same thing. Whether they actually had one or not isn't relevant, conduit there, fly there, click their heels three times and wish to go there, the method of getting there didn't have anything to do with it.

You still don't get it. The Reapers never thought anyone could replicate the mass relays, create one and be able to access the Citadel after the invasion begun. It's not supposed to happen. But it did. Why? Because the Protheans were smart enough to study the tech and replicate it, and finally use it in a way that was completely unexpected for the Reapers. That's proof that Reaper Tech can be used against them.

Bio-engineering the Keepers is not the technology that the Reapers use to manipulate the galaxy, it doesn't count as following their path. Comparing it to the dangers of relying on the technology that they blatantly do want civilisations to rely on is a disingenuous way of making a point.

Wrong. The keepers are very essential to their plan. If something goes wrong, the plan fails. Which it did. It failed because the Protheans studied them and was thus able to alter their function. In addition, the keepers are inherently linked to the Citadel. The same thing could happen if anything of value is uncovered in the base.
In addition, bio-engineering is the essence of the Reapers themselves. We know that they are not simple machines now. Their bio tech is as important as their Relay technology.

We'll just have to wait until ME3 to find out which of us is right.

Just as a parting shot though, this is merely a game, and as far as I can tell Bioware hasn't ever rewarded those who take the Renegade path in the big decisions.

Neither are necessarily wrong, unless Bioware wants to screw up.

And Bioware didn't reward paragon players either. The Council still doesn't trust you, despite everything you did. They still don't give a damn about human colonies disapearing, despite the fact that it was humans who sacrificed their lives to save thir sorry asses. Plus, it forces you to work with Cerberus. Same deal really.
So that's not really an argument.

Actually, I am pretty sure bioware is goign to reward either side by what they want to see most. aka paragon would get a happy council, with aliens collaborating. While renegade gets a human empire. And sicne this is Bioware, they are going to add shades of grey in both endings.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 février 2010 - 08:36 .

[ReubenLiew]

The Imperium of Man, with Shepard as the Biotic God-Emperor of Mankind.

There is nothing sweeter.

[TuringPoint]

Am I the only person who thought indoctrination might happen to those studying the base? Or as a result of whatever tech came from it?

[TasuricOrka]

Alocormin wrote...

Am I the only person who thought indoctrination might happen to those studying the base? Or as a result of whatever tech came from it?

No.

But i think it's questionable because indoctrination has only been asociated with the reapers themselves and not their tech so far. If the base is of reaper design which i don't think it is, doesn't mean it indoctrinates. I think its a prothean design covered with the reftting required by the repurposed protheans.

[Fulgrim88]

Alocormin wrote...

Am I the only person who thought indoctrination might happen to those studying the base? Or as a result of whatever tech came from it?

Not quite, no...

And here i was content with writing only a very short reply and still, KnightofPhoenix was only slightly slower, while far more indepth. You seriously write fast, dude;)

[pelhikano]

Studying Reaper tech is bad m'kay.



That said, it's easily possible that attempting to study the base might indoctrinate people, but since we (and Shepard) KNOW now that this danger exists even the effects of indoctrination could be studied, and there could at least some precautions be taken to see if that is, in fact, occurring. I'm not sure if in any of the other cases where it happened people actually knew that indoctrination would be a danger, in this case someone clever hopefully makes the connection and tries to at least see if anything weird is going on. You can STILL blow up the base later if it turns out people are going weird (which would be noticeable hopefully long before someone is completely "turned", indoctrination isn't instantaneous is my impression but takes a long time of exposure). In case even the slightest sign of weirdness is seen, pull everyone out of the base, or even leave them there if you're the Cerberus type and remote detonate the reactor as well as a bunch of nukes that are the first thing you bring into the base with the first scout team. Given that, you have the chance to study Reaper construction tech close up, which might reveal vital weaknesses.

[detoxness]

john william wrote...

Bioware's morality makes about as much sense here as the whole "destroy the council/save the council" dilemma at the end of ME1.  Which is to say none at all.  I actually resisted the urge to keep the collector base but I couldn't argue against Illusive Man's cold, hard logic.  There's no question that the galactic civilization is better off with the treasure trove of secrets that is the collector base.

At the end of WW2 it came to light that both the Germans and the Japanese conducted horrifying experiments on live human subjects and made certain breakthroughs because of it.  Would the allies have performed those same experiments.  Of course not.  Did the allies throw their research away?  Hell freaking naw!

ACTUALLY,

the allies used certain research but after the nurembourg trials, certain research was thrown out in an effort to send a message to other researchers for the future - don't experiment on humans. Many of the presurization research on humans was thrown out among a bunch of other things. Technology however valuable is useless if it was discovered on the backs of suffering individuals, because if we accept that technology, where do we draw the line?

As Shep put it, humanity won't lose it's soul, I agreed, and had him blow the f'kin place up

[TasuricOrka]

Why do people keep assuming it is reaper tech? It's far more logical that everything we are confronted with is prothean material adapted to serve the reapers!

[ReZeftY]

I really don't get why everyone was so quick to jump the gun when they had the option to give the finger to Cerebus. Cerebus is in the grey area, it houses bad people and good people - many of the experiments they did was awefull, but at least they are doing something against the reapers compared to the council, who I deeply regret saving.

Blowing up the station is, quite frankly, stupid and non-logical. I don't understand either why saving the base was renegade. First of all, no one except Cerebus believes in the reaper threat, and even if they gave convincing evidence to the council, such as showing the link between the proteans and collectors, looking at past experiences that would not yield results.

In short.. everyone would be stuck with technology far inferior to that of reapers.

Second of all, I really don't get how anyone can believe that Cerebus would create a reaper with that technology. TIM isn't that stupid. I mean, sure, they do live after the "ends justify the means" code, but how would they even manage to get the people needed?

If the collectors could've used clones of humans, they wouldn't have made such a bold move as to attack others and possibly risk everything. The reapers need different genetic material, that much is obvious. I can't even imagine Cerberus capturing other races for it - again, too much of a risk.

We know the reapers are going to invade, the question is not if but when. The base most likely shows weaknesses and strengths that repears have, all valuable data. Cerebus could also evolve their and possible others technology from researching the base.

The only downside is that if we defended ourselves against the reapers, that Cerebus would have an enormous advantage over other species and would take advantage to that. I would still prefer that to the alternative, which is the death of all life in the galaxy.

Let's not forget either, that when Cerebus would help out against the reapers other species would most likely gain information just by studying the effects, and what not. We also know that Cerebus has traitors - in short, Cerebus would not have the advantage for long.

You need to face facts - hundreds if not millions of repears are going to attack. Realistically, with the results of ME1, where one reapear was more than enough problem, survival seems extremely unlikely.

It isn't a perfect solution, I really dislike giving power to Cerebus who doesn't care much for other sentient species. Following in the reapers technological path is dangerous too, but realistically it should increase the chances of success, if just a bit.. and even a small advantage is vastly superior than none in this war.

With all this being said, it's obvious that Bioware has made sure it is evil (red "sun" instead of a blue in the endings, etc), and that it will haunt you in ME2 if you care about other species.That's why I'm replaying everything to get a perfect save and one where I destroy the station.

Destroying it is naive. I wish they designed the game so both decision got the respect they deserved. If you chose to destroy it, everyone on your team says you did the right thing compared to if you kept it, and Shepard said something about not selling humanity's soul. In all honestly, they're all very naivé without thinking about the potential consequences.

No matter how you put it - destroying the station is the emotional thing to do, whilst keeping it is logical. It's a hard decision I admit, but I stand by my opinion.
 
Sorry for the long post, but I've thought about it a lot and wanted to share my view.

Modifié par ReZeftY, 03 février 2010 - 09:23 .

[detoxness]

ReZeftY wrote...

I really don't get why everyone was so quick to jump the gun when they had the option to give the finger to Cerebus. Cerebus is in the grey area, it houses bad people and good people - many of the experiments they did was awefull, but at least they are doing something against the reapers compared to the council, who I deeply regret saving.

Blowing up the station is, quite frankly, stupid and non-logical. I don't understand either why saving the base was renegade. First of all, no one except Cerebus believes in the Reaper threat, and even if they gave convincing evidence to the council, such as showing the link between the proteans and collectors, looking at past experiences that would not yield results.

In short.. everyone would be stuck with technology far inferior to that of reapers.

Second of all, I really don't get how anyone can believe that Cerebus would create a reaper with that technology. TIM isn't that stupid. I mean, sure, they do live after the "ends justify the means" code, but how would they even manage to get the people needed?

If the collectors could've used clones of humans, they wouldn't have made such a bold move as to attack others and possibly risk everything. The reapers need different genetic material, that much is obvious. I can't even imagine Cerberus capturing other races for it - again, too much of a risk.

We know the reapers are going to invade, the question is not if but when. The base most likely shows weaknesses and strengths that repears have, all valuable data. Cerebus could also evolve their and possible others technology from researching the base.

The only downside is that if we defended ourselves against the reapers, that Cerebus would have an enormous advantage over other species and would take advantage to that. I would still prefer that to the alternative, which is the death of all life in the galaxy.

Let's not forget either, that when Cerebus would help out against the reapers other species would most likely gain information just by studying the effects, and what not. We also know that Cerebus has traitors - in short, Cerebus would not have the advantage for long.

You need to face facts - hundreds if not millions of repears are going to attack. Realistically, with the results of ME1, where one reapear was more than enough problem, survival seems extremely unlikely.

It isn't a perfect solution, I really dislike giving power to Cerebus who doesn't care much for other sentient species. Following in the reapers technological path is dangerous too, but realistically it should increase the chances of success, if just a bit.. and even a small advantage is vastly superior than none in this war.

With all this being said, it's obvious that Bioware has made sure it is evil (red "sun" instead of a "blue" in the endings, etc), and that it will haunt you in ME2 if you care about other species.That's why I'm replaying everything to get a perfect save and one where I destroy the station.

Destroying it is naive. I wish they designed the game so both decision got the respect they deserved. If you chose to destroy it, everyone on your team says you did the right thing compared to if you kept it, and Shepard said something about not selling humanity's soul. In all honestly, they're all very naivé without thinking about the potential consequences.

No matter how you put it - destroying the station is the emotional thing to do, whilst keeping it is logical. It's a hard decision I admit, but I stand by my opinion.
 
Sorry for the long post, but I've thought about it a lot and wanted to share my view.

All of your points are moot if you read my post 3 spaces up, it's unethical to use research that has been founded upon the suffering of individuals. You aint no paragon if you keep that place. It's like keeping the research from the syphilus experiment on all those black people in the 60's  - it's unethical.

[ReZeftY]

That's your opinion, which I disagree but respect. Like I said, it's in the gray area - I understand your viewpoint, but at the same time, when it comes to the survival of life in the galaxy, how ethical it is is thrown out of the window, at least for me.

It's too naive, it's like carrying a heavy rock on your way to a safe shelter in a country filled with millions of enemy soldiers, missiles, nukes and what not. It's better to live and bear the burden, than to refuse and possibly die.

But again, like you said.. I guess renegade isn't evil and paragon isn't good in this game, it depends on the perspective. I think the good thing to do for everyone is to keep it, but it is unethical. If you play paragon you're nice and good in the moment.

Modifié par ReZeftY, 03 février 2010 - 09:13 .

[Proud Larry]

Do you realize what TIM wants that base for?

INSTRUMENTALITY.

[ReubenLiew]

He wants to make everybody in the universe into one happy soup?

Thats... wrong and awesome at the same time.

[Offkorn]

detoxness wrote...

it's unethical to use research that has been founded upon the suffering of individuals.

What, exactly, makes you think the Collector base (which is Prothean Technology upgraded by the Reapers) was founded upon suffering?

The creation of new Reapers is certainly, but that's not all the base does or contains. And Cereberus wants to destroy the Reapers; not make more of them.

[detoxness]

ReZeftY wrote...

That's your opinion, which I disagree but respect. Like I said, it's in the gray area - I understand your viewpoint, but at the same time, when it comes to the survival of life in the galaxy, how ethical it is is thrown out of the window, at least for me.

It's too naive, it's like carrying a heavy rock on your way to a safe shelter in a country filled with millions of enemy soldiers, missiles, nukes and what not. It's better to live and bear the burden, than to refuse and possibly die.

Well, this thread is about why it's a renegade choice, and I think I made my point. Being a paragon is naive, there's no such thing as a real life paladin - which is why the only paladins exist in dnd and other RPGS. I made my shep to be the knight in shining armor there to save the galaxy in an ethical and respectful way, and on top of that I wanted to give a big " F U" to TIM.

I'm completely sure that Bioware will have a good ending for those in mass effect 3 who destroyed the station, and those who didnt. It just depends on which way you wanted to go about it.

However in my personal opinion, as my grandparents were hollocaust survivors and I know a lot about research methods being a sociology major, screw any research taht is based off of suffering.

[detoxness]

Offkorn wrote...

detoxness wrote...

it's unethical to use research that has been founded upon the suffering of individuals.

What, exactly, makes you think the Collector base (which is Prothean Technology upgraded by the Reapers) was founded upon suffering?

The creation of new Reapers is certainly, but that's not all the base does or contains. And Cereberus wants to destroy the Reapers; not make more of them.

The place liquidated humans ALIVE without sedative - i'd say that place has been sullied and to use it isn't a really ethical venture

[RampantBeaver]

Kordaris wrote...

Legion explains quite well why it was a bad idea to keep it.
But I decided to save the base, for the technology sake.

Yes legion is wise in this matter. Look at our own planet for examples. Third world countries being given technology and using it irresponsibly.

A better example might be the proxi wars that came about during the cold war with opposing lesser countries being backed by western and eastern powers respectively. Wars that may not have escalated if not for the support of these major powers.

Just think of all the arms the western world has sold on only to give the recievers an advantage over their enemies. Middle east *cough* *cough*.