582 réponses à ce sujet

[Proud Larry]

Alright hands up: who destroyed the base JUST so that they could tell TIM to go choke on a ****?

[Doug84]

Proud Larry wrote...

Alright hands up: who destroyed the base JUST so that they could tell TIM to go choke on a ****?

*sticks hand up* Pretty much - I was tempted to keep it, but ended up destroying it.


As for why its Renegade choice - probably because you'd be giving an anti-alien group the technology to construct a Reaper - such things generally lead to bad situations - especially for someone like TIM who thinks they know best for humanity.

[Offkorn]

Doug84 wrote...

As for why its Renegade choice - probably because you'd be giving an anti-alien group the technology to construct a Reaper - such things generally lead to bad situations - especially for someone like TIM who thinks they know best for humanity.

TIM wants it for the Collector tech, not the ability to build Reapers. He would not build a Reaper as he is set on destroying them.

Building one would be in direct opposition to Cerberus' goals and ideology (Human centric, Reapers are not Human).

Modifié par Offkorn, 03 février 2010 - 09:49 .

[Mister Mage]

pelhikano wrote...

That said, it's easily possible that attempting to study the base might indoctrinate people, but since we (and Shepard) KNOW now that this danger exists even the effects of indoctrination could be studied, and there could at least some precautions be taken to see if that is, in fact, occurring. I'm not sure if in any of the other cases where it happened people actually knew that indoctrination would be a danger, in this case someone clever hopefully makes the connection and tries to at least see if anything weird is going on.

On Virmire, Saren was studying Indoctrination.

One story planet later?  Dead.

You can STILL blow up the base later if it turns out people are going weird (which would be noticeable hopefully long before someone is completely "turned", indoctrination isn't instantaneous is my impression but takes a long time of exposure).

That's the problem, though.  It's too subtle to really realize that's what is happening.  At least, that's been the case with every other case in existence.

[Mister Mage]

Proud Larry wrote...

Alright hands up: who destroyed the base JUST so that they could tell TIM to go choke on a ****?

Gotta say, me.  I was sick and tired of Shepard being a ****.

[pelhikano]

Mister Mage wrote...

That's the problem, though.  It's too subtle to really realize that's what is happening.  At least, that's been the case with every other case in existence.

The person being indoctrinated might not notice, but someone else watching might. Which means total surveillance of every single person who enters the station, around the clock, even on the loo .

[Jonny_Evil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Neither are necessarily wrong, unless Bioware wants to screw up.

And Bioware didn't reward paragon players either. The Council still doesn't trust you, despite everything you did. They still don't give a damn about human colonies disapearing, despite the fact that it was humans who sacrificed their lives to save thir sorry asses. Plus, it forces you to work with Cerberus. Same deal really.
So that's not really an argument.

Actually, I am pretty sure bioware is goign to reward either side by what they want to see most. aka paragon would get a happy council, with aliens collaborating. While renegade gets a human empire. And sicne this is Bioware, they are going to add shades of grey in both endings.  

I'm not going to reply to anything else, because you still haven't come up with any new arguments and as I said before, neither of us is going to convince the other. Unless you want to go in circles for the next two years?

However, having imported both a renegade and paragon save, I can say that the paragon situation is far superior to the renegade one. When you import a renegade save the citadel is a quasi-police state wracked with ethnic tensions and race riots, the Asari give up on defence, the Turians break the Treaty of Firaxen, the whole galaxy is sliding into war and the council still won't believe you or even do you the courtesy of talking to you.

With a Paragon save, everyone's working together nicely, the Turians are making efforts to reconcile with the Alliance, the biggest dreadnought in space is still around, the humans are loved and respected, the galaxy is closer together than ever before and the council at least speak to you and give you back your Spectre status. Even if they won't help you because of your Cerberus affiliations.

[Fulgrim88]

You get the Spectre Status as renegade as well. Although the so called human dominance over the council is a bad joke, with Anderson/Udina not being able to convince the (somehow still mostly alien) council to do something about the Reapers.

So theres not really any major difference, Storywise.



Apart from that, having the Paragon choice leading to an overall win/win situation sucks in many ways i'm too tired to explain once again. I just hope it won't turn out similar with ME3, for otherwise the whole concept of being Renegade is rendered useless. Unless you're simply the jackass type

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Neither are necessarily wrong, unless Bioware wants to screw up.

And Bioware didn't reward paragon players either. The Council still doesn't trust you, despite everything you did. They still don't give a damn about human colonies disapearing, despite the fact that it was humans who sacrificed their lives to save thir sorry asses. Plus, it forces you to work with Cerberus. Same deal really.
So that's not really an argument.

Actually, I am pretty sure bioware is goign to reward either side by what they want to see most. aka paragon would get a happy council, with aliens collaborating. While renegade gets a human empire. And sicne this is Bioware, they are going to add shades of grey in both endings.  

I'm not going to reply to anything else, because you still haven't come up with any new arguments and as I said before, neither of us is going to convince the other. Unless you want to go in circles for the next two years?

However, having imported both a renegade and paragon save, I can say that the paragon situation is far superior to the renegade one. When you import a renegade save the citadel is a quasi-police state wracked with ethnic tensions and race riots, the Asari give up on defence, the Turians break the Treaty of Firaxen, the whole galaxy is sliding into war and the council still won't believe you or even do you the courtesy of talking to you.

With a Paragon save, everyone's working together nicely, the Turians are making efforts to reconcile with the Alliance, the biggest dreadnought in space is still around, the humans are loved and respected, the galaxy is closer together than ever before and the council at least speak to you and give you back your Spectre status. Even if they won't help you because of your Cerberus affiliations.

I am pretty satisfied with my renegade ending. Humanity has the strongest and largest fleet now. It actually protects human colonies within the alliance against the batarian scums.
The Turrians breaking the treaty isn't bad, because they want to build up their military. Good thing.
Crime has been reduced from 25 to 40% (forgot the exact stats, but there ism ore security).
The galaxy is not sliding into war at all. the only war that might happen is the Quarrian Geth one, which I argued against.

Aliens still respect humans. Except those who are too jealous. It's irrelevent. Once the reapers come and they see only humanity will protect them, they will stfu and side with us.

Overall, I am very pleased. Though not as pleased as I would have hoped.

The Council making you a specter is the greatest insult, if you haven't noticed. It's their way to tell you to stfu and go away to the terminus systems where you ca't bother them. If you actually thought they were doing you a favor, then suit yourself. I saw that as an insult.

[FlintlockJazz]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Neither are necessarily wrong, unless Bioware wants to screw up.

And Bioware didn't reward paragon players either. The Council still doesn't trust you, despite everything you did. They still don't give a damn about human colonies disapearing, despite the fact that it was humans who sacrificed their lives to save thir sorry asses. Plus, it forces you to work with Cerberus. Same deal really.
So that's not really an argument.

Actually, I am pretty sure bioware is goign to reward either side by what they want to see most. aka paragon would get a happy council, with aliens collaborating. While renegade gets a human empire. And sicne this is Bioware, they are going to add shades of grey in both endings.  

I'm not going to reply to anything else, because you still haven't come up with any new arguments and as I said before, neither of us is going to convince the other. Unless you want to go in circles for the next two years?

However, having imported both a renegade and paragon save, I can say that the paragon situation is far superior to the renegade one. When you import a renegade save the citadel is a quasi-police state wracked with ethnic tensions and race riots, the Asari give up on defence, the Turians break the Treaty of Firaxen, the whole galaxy is sliding into war and the council still won't believe you or even do you the courtesy of talking to you.

With a Paragon save, everyone's working together nicely, the Turians are making efforts to reconcile with the Alliance, the biggest dreadnought in space is still around, the humans are loved and respected, the galaxy is closer together than ever before and the council at least speak to you and give you back your Spectre status. Even if they won't help you because of your Cerberus affiliations.

That's because the renegade is going for the big bucks: total domination of the galaxy by humans.  Sure, in the short term you'll get a few hundred billion people dying, but renegade shep probably kills that many in his sleep, and afterwards everyone will be united beneath the human forces, very far beneath like in the spice mines....

[tmp7704]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Saying that the Conduit proves mastering Reaper tech is essential because it let them access the Citadel is bizarre as any ship could do the same thing.

"Any ship" would need to use the mass relays to reach the Citadel system. Which is pretty much impossible when the said relays are under control of the Reapers (it's said the reliance on the mass relay travel allows the Reapers to fracture enemy forces into small, easily conquerable chunks)

So really, the knowledge of Reaper technology appears rather essential here. Either so you can replicate it (like the Conduit) or so you can override the locks which are activated when the Reapers come. Alternatively, you can try to invent entirely new system of long range space travel in what seems to be very short time left before the invasion happens. But somehow this doesn't feel like very plausible option.

[Revya]

Proud Larry wrote...

Alright hands up: who destroyed the base JUST so that they could tell TIM to go choke on a ****?

I did that and will continue to do it

[Sniper11709]

Jonny_Evil wrote...



However, having imported both a renegade and paragon save, I can say that the paragon situation is far superior to the renegade one. When you import a renegade save the citadel is a quasi-police state wracked with ethnic tensions and race riots, the Asari give up on defence, the Turians break the Treaty of Firaxen, the whole galaxy is sliding into war and the council still won't believe you or even do you the courtesy of talking to you.

With a Paragon save, everyone's working together nicely, the Turians are making efforts to reconcile with the Alliance, the biggest dreadnought in space is still around, the humans are loved and respected, the galaxy is closer together than ever before and the council at least speak to you and give you back your Spectre status. Even if they won't help you because of your Cerberus affiliations.

Actully i see the paragon situation as worse off (at least for humans). Reading one of the codex entrys tells you that the Alliance is still rebuilding from it's losses during the attack on the citadel, that means they lost a hell of a lot of people saving the councils asses but they said they can't Interfere in a human matter when i had my meeting with them, and if we are loved and respected i wonder why no one is doing anything. and as someone else said the council giving you spectre status was essentially throwing you a bone and telling you to leave them alone like a good little dog.

By the way that Biggest Dreadnaught In Space your so proud of got it's ass kicked by a fleet consisting of just one reaper and some geth so i'm not very confident that it will be any use at all in an actual fight against the reapers, oh and rather then utilizing it in the fight against the geth they have been sending it around on a 20 colony victory cruise . Also that dreadnaught was diverted from the battle for the citadel to pick up the council, the council diverted their biggest dreadnaught to pick them up rather then letting them fight. Hell even if it still around during the actual war i expect to just hang around to defend the citadel along with the majority of the council fleets.

Modifié par Sniper11709, 04 février 2010 - 02:51 .

[manyfistss]

Reaper technology is everywhere, however the Reapers wanted organics to depend on technology they left behind on purpose. Citadel, Mass Relays, and the works, they never wanted organics to develop technology similar to their own in terms of advancement. Turians reversed engineered sovereign's weapons, which was used against the collectors (read reapers). This was unexpected, something the reapers never wanted organics to develop.



There's a fine line in which they want organics to develop along and the wrong way they don't want organics to develop upon. Obviously collector tech is one of them, they frequently give out these technologies, forcing organics to never develop it on their own but instead be given it. Much like Legion said, to be given such technology was harmful as it lead to a trap. He never said anything about studying it, reverse engineering it and developing new technology branching off from Reaper Tech. Infact he rewrote the reaper's virus upon the heretics, something similar can be done with collectors.

[Herald of Galactus_]

john william wrote...

Bioware's morality makes about as much sense here as the whole "destroy the council/save the council" dilemma at the end of ME1.  Which is to say none at all.  I actually resisted the urge to keep the collector base but I couldn't argue against Illusive Man's cold, hard logic.  There's no question that the galactic civilization is better off with the treasure trove of secrets that is the collector base.

At the end of WW2 it came to light that both the Germans and the Japanese conducted horrifying experiments on live human subjects and made certain breakthroughs because of it.  Would the allies have performed those same experiments.  Of course not.  Did the allies throw their research away?  Hell freaking naw!

Don't know if anyone mentioned this yet, but if you talk to Samara after the suicide mission she'll explain that she agrees with your choice (that you blew up the base), because while the tech would undoubtably prove useful, she doesn't believe humanity has the wisdom to use the tech. Coming from a 1000 year-old justicar, and knowing the injustice that the collector's represent, i found her reply to be a succinct, but satisfactory explanation of why keeping the base is the renegade choice: humanity hasn't progressed enough to be able to wield such knowledge and power for the ultimate benefit of the galaxy. And this comes from someone a character who is  a millennium old and who likes humans and is intrigued by humans.

Modifié par Herald of Galactus , 04 février 2010 - 02:58 .

[caynes]

i think its renegade because its obvious that through that tech TIM is gonna oppress other species to secure human dominance

[Jonny_Evil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...I am pretty satisfied with my renegade ending. Humanity has the strongest and largest fleet now. It actually protects human colonies within the alliance against the batarian scums.

No they don't. They don't do anything at all, the all human council is as pointless as the alien one.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Turrians breaking the treaty isn't bad, because they want to build up their military. Good thing.

They're building it to fight perceived human aggression.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Crime has been reduced from 25 to 40% (forgot the exact stats, but there ism ore security).

Congratulations, your Visa to **** Germany has been approved.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The galaxy is not sliding into war at all. the only war that might happen is the Quarrian Geth one, which I argued against.

Aliens still respect humans. Except those who are too jealous. It's irrelevent. Once the reapers come and they see only humanity will protect them, they will stfu and side with us.

The galaxy is blatantly sliding into war between humanity and the council races. Unless you're mad enough to think that they're going to tolerate their multi-millenia rule being usurped by the new guys.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Overall, I am very pleased. Though not as pleased as I would have hoped.

Then you have a congenital failure in seeing the bigger picture.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Council making you a specter is the greatest insult, if you haven't noticed. It's their way to tell you to stfu and go away to the terminus systems where you ca't bother them. If you actually thought they were doing you a favor, then suit yourself. I saw that as an insult.

The all human council that owes it's very existence to me wouldn't even talk to me and Anderson had to reinstate me. The alien council aren't insulting you, they just can't publically acknowledge support for you when you're so closely tied to an illegal terrorist group. So they do the next best thing, reinstate you and tell you to keep what you're doing quiet.

Also, whoever it was grumbling about the Destiny Ascension, dreadnoughts are designed to fight other dreadnoughts, they're vulnerable to being swarmed by smaller ships. Scoffing at it because it had no support against the geth fleet is like saying tanks are pointless because one guy with an anti-tank charge can destroy them if they have no infantry support.

[Sniper11709]

Jonny_Evil wrote...


Also, whoever it was grumbling about the Destiny Ascension, dreadnoughts are designed to fight other dreadnoughts, they're vulnerable to being swarmed by smaller ships. Scoffing at it because it had no support against the geth fleet is like saying tanks are pointless because one guy with an anti-tank charge can destroy them if they have no infantry support.

Your analogy fails miserably. Why you say, because it had bloody infantry support all over the bloody place. Last time i checked it wasn't the only ship in the fight, it had plenty of Frigates and Cruisers even some other dreadnaughts helping it as well as a nice amount of fighters so saying it was unsupported is a tad idiotic.

Also thanks for not trying to argue with the fact that the council was cowardly when it made it's largest dreadnaught rescue them or responding to my comments about the large scale GARDIAN being a really stupid idea (and you even were nice enough to continue to spread the stupidity). Nope instead you go after a little detail which dosen't change much either way.

Modifié par Sniper11709, 04 février 2010 - 03:57 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...I am pretty satisfied with my renegade ending. Humanity has the strongest and largest fleet now. It actually protects human colonies within the alliance against the batarian scums.

No they don't. They don't do anything at all, the all human council is as pointless as the alien one.

Listen to the news. The ship that carried out an alliance attack on the batarian slavers was called Ain Jalut, and the news statse that the alliance and the ocuncil has been more active in defending human colonies within the alliance (not outside the alliance).
Otherwise, don't negate something you clearly know nothing about.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Turrians breaking the treaty isn't bad, because they want to build up their military. Good thing.

They're building it to fight perceived human aggression.

So? All nations do that. It's irrelevent. Once the Reapers show themselves, the Turians would have a stronger military.
And it's not to fight humans in the short run. It's to strengthen their position. Which is very ironic since it was the Turians in the first place who limited the human fleet and now thy can't bear to see humanity having a stronger fleet. It's a diplomatic / swagerring move for now.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Crime has been reduced from 25 to 40% (forgot the exact stats, but there ism ore security).

Congratulations, your Visa to **** Germany has been approved.

Fail.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The galaxy is not sliding into war at all. the only war that might happen is the Quarrian Geth one, which I argued against.

Aliens still respect humans. Except those who are too jealous. It's irrelevent. Once the reapers come and they see only humanity will protect them, they will stfu and side with us.

The galaxy is blatantly sliding into war between humanity and the council races. Unless you're mad enough to think that they're going to tolerate their multi-millenia rule being usurped by the new guys.

It's not at all. There is no sign of a war coming in the short term. Will they try to rebel later? Maybe, that's partially why I want the base. Otherwise, it's minor incidents instigated by jealous fools.
Furthermore, that same turian who bases his campaign against humans, does the exact same thing even if you save the council. Shows you.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The Council making you a specter is the greatest insult, if you haven't noticed. It's their way to tell you to stfu and go away to the terminus systems where you ca't bother them. If you actually thought they were doing you a favor, then suit yourself. I saw that as an insult.

The all human council that owes it's very existence to me wouldn't even talk to me and Anderson had to reinstate me. The alien council aren't insulting you, they just can't publically acknowledge support for you when you're so closely tied to an illegal terrorist group. So they do the next best thing, reinstate you and tell you to keep what you're doing quiet.

The alien council owes its survival to you and humanity and they aren't bothered to do anything.
Ha, talk to Anderson after they make you a specter and he will tell you. It's only symbolic. There is nothing to be gained at all from beign reinstated. They don't give you any kind of material, concret, support.

The big picture is very clear to me and what I wanted since ME1 is being realised. I am satisfied. And I couldn't care less if you aren't.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 février 2010 - 04:28 .

[john william]

Herald of Galactus wrote...

Don't know if anyone mentioned this yet, but if you talk to Samara after the suicide mission she'll explain that she agrees with your choice (that you blew up the base), because while the tech would undoubtably prove useful, she doesn't believe humanity has the wisdom to use the tech. Coming from a 1000 year-old justicar, and knowing the injustice that the collector's represent, i found her reply to be a succinct, but satisfactory explanation of why keeping the base is the renegade choice: humanity hasn't progressed enough to be able to wield such knowledge and power for the ultimate benefit of the galaxy. And this comes from someone a character who is  a millennium old and who likes humans and is intrigued by humans.

Yeah, the reactions from all the side characters have been thrown around by the paragon side a lot.  It's all pretty worthless evidence in my opinion, as it just serves to make those who made the paragon choice feel better about their actions. 

Anyway, it's completely beside the point.  I'm interested in the player's opinion and justification for their actions, not Samara's.  It seems a lot are doing some intense post-rationalizing to justify throwing the valuable tech and intelligence away.

And seriously, the Illusive Man is going to build a reaper?  That doesn't approach the realm of making sense.  Would he do unscrupulous things?  Without a doubt.  Build a reaper?  I just don't see how that could possibly benefit his ends, even if he were to justify the deaths of millions to protect the billions of humans out there.  How would he control it?  I can't imagine any safety protocol that could keep a Reaper in check.

If it were the case that TIM wanted to build his own Reaper, then Bioware's writers would be the biggest hacks in the biz.  And think we can agree that they aren't.

[Jonny_Evil]

Sniper11709 wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...


Also, whoever it was grumbling about the Destiny Ascension, dreadnoughts are designed to fight other dreadnoughts, they're vulnerable to being swarmed by smaller ships. Scoffing at it because it had no support against the geth fleet is like saying tanks are pointless because one guy with an anti-tank charge can destroy them if they have no infantry support.

Your analogy fails miserably. Why you say, because it had bloody infantry support all over the bloody place. Last time i checked it wasn't the only ship in the fight, it had plenty of Frigates and Cruisers even some other dreadnaughts helping it as well as a nice amount of fighters so saying it was unsupported is a tad idiotic.

Also thanks for not trying to argue with the fact that the council was cowardly when it made it's largest dreadnaught rescue them or responding to my comments about the large scale GARDIAN being a really stupid idea (and you even were nice enough to continue to spread the stupidity). Nope instead you go after a little detail which dosen't change much either way.

Bollocks. If it had the support you say why did it need rescuing?

I didn't respond to the council being cowardly because I totally agreed with you, as I said right from the start of this pointless little row if it had just been the council I'd have left them to it. I actually responded to your point about GARDIAN lasers when I said that they'd most likely never been used in lieu of mass effect weaponry because without knowing the inherent trap involved in the technology it's easier to use and more efficient than any of it's contempories. Reading the thread fail detected.

[tmp7704]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Bollocks. If it had the support you say why did it need rescuing?

Because combined forces of a Reaper and geth were still stronger.

Support is just support, it's not the "i win" button especially when outnumbered and outgunned.

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 février 2010 - 05:53 .

[Jonny_Evil]

edit

Why am I continuing this argument when it's boring me so much? I'm done.

Christ. @the above, there were no other ships around the Destiny, it was cut off because it had gone to rescue the council. That's why they needed the alliance.

Really done now.

Modifié par Jonny_Evil, 04 février 2010 - 05:58 .

[Sniper11709]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Sniper11709 wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...


Also, whoever it was grumbling about the Destiny Ascension, dreadnoughts are designed to fight other dreadnoughts, they're vulnerable to being swarmed by smaller ships. Scoffing at it because it had no support against the geth fleet is like saying tanks are pointless because one guy with an anti-tank charge can destroy them if they have no infantry support.

Your analogy fails miserably. Why you say, because it had bloody infantry support all over the bloody place. Last time i checked it wasn't the only ship in the fight, it had plenty of Frigates and Cruisers even some other dreadnaughts helping it as well as a nice amount of fighters so saying it was unsupported is a tad idiotic.

Also thanks for not trying to argue with the fact that the council was cowardly when it made it's largest dreadnaught rescue them or responding to my comments about the large scale GARDIAN being a really stupid idea (and you even were nice enough to continue to spread the stupidity). Nope instead you go after a little detail which dosen't change much either way.

Bollocks. If it had the support you say why did it need rescuing?

I didn't respond to the council being cowardly because I totally agreed with you, as I said right from the start of this pointless little row if it had just been the council I'd have left them to it. I actually responded to your point about GARDIAN lasers when I said that they'd most likely never been used in lieu of mass effect weaponry because without knowing the inherent trap involved in the technology it's easier to use and more efficient than any of it's contempories. Reading the thread fail detected.

They needed rescuing becuase they were compleatly bloody useless which is why i think paragons who keep bringing it up are a tad obsessed. The council had entire fleets defending them stop trying to say that Destiny was unsupported. And if the Destiny was alone because they were rescuing the council (i don't believe this) then the council admirals need to be executed for incompetence.

I'm going to gather you didn't read my post at all. Here let me grab a quote from your post after mine

"And there are plenty of techs in Mass Effect totally unrelated to any
Reaper technology. Plasma drive systems, GARDIAN lasers, Omnitools, all
do not use eezo and weren't inspired by anything the Reapers left
behind."

GARDIAN lasers are very much inspired by Reaper tech, they are built to counter Reaper based tech which means they would have faced it before and have accounted for something like it, even a large scale version.
Omnitools are made with or at least enhanced with eezo due to the fact that is is required for tech upgrades, that could be just a game mechanic but until told otherwise i'll just assume eezo is part of it's construction

Modifié par Sniper11709, 04 février 2010 - 06:03 .

[Mallissin]

manyfistss wrote...

Reaper technology is everywhere, however the Reapers wanted organics to depend on technology they left behind on purpose. Citadel, Mass Relays, and the works, they never wanted organics to develop technology similar to their own in terms of advancement. Turians reversed engineered sovereign's weapons, which was used against the collectors (read reapers). This was unexpected, something the reapers never wanted organics to develop.
 

Exactly. The Reapers are uncreative machines. They need the new civilizations to create derivitives of their work in order to advance. Hence the extinction cycle. They swoop in when life has created just enough but not enough to be a threat. Hence why it's imperative we get as much technology as possible and as quickly as possible!

Why is it assumed that saving the base is Renegade? I don't remember getting any Renegade points for making the decision. Just because it was the bottom right option? Keep in mind the Save Council/Councilman options at the end of ME1 were both on the LEFT and the only RIGHT option was "focus on Sovereign" (letting the Council die) and democracy (which ended in Udina I think). Which I might add were the DEFAULTs when starting a new character in ME2.