582 réponses à ce sujet

[MBirkhofer]

The same for the Geth Heretics.



Ok, accepting that Geth are sentient=Paragon. Insisting they are just machines=Renegade. that makes sense.

Now, brainwashing the Heretics=Paragon?, while killing them outright is renegade. What?

Unless they are both renegade? I didn't reload to see what using the virus did.

[senojones]

For anyone who is saying TIM won't be able to reach the Collectors base, watch this.

[SharpEdgeSoda]

That's why I wish Mass Effect hid the "morality" results until the end, like Dragon Age. It encorages players to choose what THEY think is right, instead of making a "pure saint" or "dickhole from hell."

[pelhikano]

"Dickhole from hell" would be a hilarious name for an achievement.

[KnightofPhoenix]

SharpEdgeSoda wrote...

That's why I wish Mass Effect hid the "morality" results until the end, like Dragon Age. It encorages players to choose what THEY think is right, instead of making a "pure saint" or "dickhole from hell."

Bioware making Harrowmont = fail and Bhelen = win is epic. I love them!

[john william]

Mallissin wrote...

Why is it assumed that saving the base is Renegade? I don't remember getting any Renegade points for making the decision. Just because it was the bottom right option?

Yeah.  You get renegade points for for it.

[Proud Larry]

Think of it this way:

Why does TIM want the base?

Weapons? Um, no the base had no cannons and you already blew up the ship that did. But that is alright, you picked up an intact Particle Beam on Horizon they can study. The ship cannon looked like a big version of the same concept applied in the Particle Beam anyway. Not like it matters, you totally blew the crap out of the Collector Ship using the cannon reverse engineered from Sovereign's salvaged spinal cannon, so we already have the tech for two superior weapons already.

I don't see anything TIM would want on that base other than the technology to create Reapers.

Good job! You're a Renegade who just gave a militant xenophobe the ability to turn people into LCL.

[ryujio85]

john william wrote...

ryujio85 wrote...

The allies were renegade 100% man. Dropping the A-bomb, Screwing the Polish over to ensure peace with Russia and fire bombing the hell out of Germany. I'm glad they did all that **** but it isnt in line with a Paragon character. So I don't understand why you would use their actions as a metaphor for paragon choice.

The problem is that at other points in the game, renegade also means being a bully and even sociopathic.  Bioware's own barometer is muddled.  Besides, if those were the "renegade" options, I have no clue as to how we would have won that war otherwise.

The problem is that you view the morality scale as good vs evil whereas it is paragon vs. renegade. Renegade isn't bad it is simply that you aren't confined by a strict moral code. You get the job done even if it means compromising your beliefs etc. Paragon on the other hand won't act unless it is 100% the right thing to do. In this case there is a chance TIM will use the tech against other alien species so the paragon option would be to reject the technology.

[lordxanthrax]

I like to play sheperd as i would myself.



making choices of both kinds.



no one's going to completely disregard any kind of personal motives or emotion.



I kept the damn base.



Worst case scenario, I blow it up later.



Maybe the reapers will even help me out.

[Toxik King]

I don't know if it was mentioned before, but I picked blow it up cuz of Legion and Mordin.

Legion said the Geth will find their own way, while the Heretics want the machines to give them the way or something. Basically people are better off developing tech themselves.

Mordin says that when a species gets tech they're not ready for, the results are bad for all parties. Krogan was his example.

I asked TIM what he was gonna do and he gave me the bull I expected, then I was about to click on save the base anyway and remembered those convos. Sort of like a moment in a movie when a guy gets flashbacks of his dead wife or something.

Blew up the place, told Martin Sheen to fe** off and cried cuz I thought Tali died

Modifié par Toxik King, 08 février 2010 - 09:40 .

[mohdhm]

This is what bothers me the most. The ME story doesn't support hard logic. With making hard choices, you just end up being the ***hole, while achieving nothing more than your typical goody two shoes would have.



Look at the ending of ME1: You're not given the choice between Humanity and the Alien Council, but between loosing a single battleship and loosing the whole battle, by not defeating Sovereign in time.

Of course you, as the player, might see the possible outcome, but from Shepards (roleplaying and military) point of view, the Renegade decision is the only viable option.

Sadly, the game doesn't reflect this choice. Wether you focus the whole fleets fire on Sovereign or not, theres just no difference. In a real universe, the consequences of the paragon choice would have been severe, with loss of the Citadel Tower at the least. But as this game is geared for heroism, it doesn't happen. By making the "right" choice, you're doomed to make the wrong one.



Same goes for the ending of ME2. I would love to see a sequel where humanity and their meager technology get totally steamrolled by the Reapers, because they didn't salvage the Collector-Base, gaining a quantum leap in technology while they still could.

But it won't happen. They'll beat the Reaper fleet to dust with what crappy tech they possess, while the Collectors-Base will be nothing more than an asset for TIM.



I can somewhat live with it by imagining an alternate, more severe outcome of the paragon choice, making my Renegade Shep the only one aware of the "big picture". However, it's still not fair that the game is geared for zero punishment of easy heroism



REPOSTED!!! This is how i feel about the situation as well

[Schneidend]

It's the Renegade choice because you're keeping a facility whose sole purpose is to grind up living beings and churn them into a cybernetic Lovecraftian horror. You're ignoring that people were sacrificed in order to make the reaper larva you just destroyed in order to accomplish the mission. You're doing whatever it takes to win, no matter how unspeakable, and that's the essence of Renegade.

[Schneidend]

It's the Renegade choice because you're keeping a facility whose sole purpose is to grind up living beings and churn them into a cybernetic Lovecraftian horror. You're ignoring that people were sacrificed in order to make the reaper larva you just destroyed in order to accomplish the mission. You're doing whatever it takes to win, no matter how unspeakable, and that's the essence of Renegade.

[DOOM ZOMBIE]

To use the World War II analogy, it would be akin to finding a 21st century aircraft carrier in 1941, and having the option of capturing it or sinking it.  Any career soldier like Shepard would have to acknowledge the benefits of capturing the base versus destroying it, because at the very least it can result in a better understanding of the enemy.  If Bioware wanted to give true choices, then there should have been a renegade and paragon choice for saving the base, and it should have related to how you've interacted with TIM throughout the game.  So if you were snuggled up to him and constantly defending Cerberus, you could hand it over to him as a renedage action.  But if you didn't trust him (like I didn't), you should have had an option to save the base and hand it over to the council or alliance.  After the credits rolled, the very first thing I did was head back to the Citadel to tell Anderson what went down, because I understood the value of having the base but sure as hell didn't want TIM to have it.  I was quite annoyed to find that there was no option to tell anyone about what happened.  Not Anderson, not the council, hell not even Liara.

So to sum up, I understand why handing it over to TIM was a renegade action, but there should have been a paragon option, too.  The act of saving the base shouldn't have been the question, but rather who gets the tech inside and does what with it.

[Stephenc13]

BEFORE PEOPLE KEEP POSTING, READ THIS

The collector base was meant to dominate the universe. and to the world war reference, the medical breakthroughs werent threatening at all

Modifié par Stephenc13, 17 février 2010 - 04:28 .

[Bigdoser]

Maybe cause your handing it to a pro-human terrorist

[superimposed]

It's that way because Bioware severely ****ed up the characterisation in ME:2.

[superimposed]

Schneidend wrote...

It's the Renegade choice because you're keeping a facility whose sole purpose is to grind up living beings and churn them into a cybernetic Lovecraftian horror. You're ignoring that people were sacrificed in order to make the reaper larva you just destroyed in order to accomplish the mission. You're doing whatever it takes to win, no matter how unspeakable, and that's the essence of Renegade.

Bull****. Why is defying TIM, telling him to get ****ed and stop telling you what to do Renegade, except for at the very end? Keeping the Base is neither Paragon nor Renegade, and the same with Destroying it.
Bioware screwed up Characterisation again.

[Splinter Cell 108]

I don't understand why people keep saying that keeping the base is not the renegade choice. You're keeping a Reaper factory, a place with technology beyond anyone else's. You're also giving that to a terrorist organization headed by a madman who will do absolutely anything to get humanity to dominate the other species. It shouldn't go that way IMO, humanity should be moving along with the other species not going ahead and taking over. In fact I doubt anyone in the galaxy is ready to use the technology in that base.



We've all see what has happened in the past when someone used technology they weren't ready for like the Krogan. No one will have that place IMO and no one will take any Reaper technology in ME3 nobody is ready for it. Not humanity or any of the other species.

[superimposed]

It's not. If all the Renegade choices have been telling TIM to stop trying to control you, why is obeying him suddenly the renegade choice? Keeping the base is compeltely contrary to Shepard's mission, and ignorant of all the knowledge and facts he's been given.

[Suron]

because Cerberus is a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION..regardless of how any of you bandwagon followers want to spin it..they are TERRORISTS....



if the option was to destroy or keep it for the council I'm sure it would be approached differently...but giving it to Cerberus??? lol yah....it's like giving a nuke to Hitler.

[superimposed]

But getting rid of technology that could potentially be used to annhiliate the reapers (IE the circumstances of their construction and how they function) is totally the Paragon option, eh?



Again, ****ty writing by polarising.

[Suron]

superimposed wrote...

But getting rid of technology that could potentially be used to annhiliate the reapers (IE the circumstances of their construction and how they function) is totally the Paragon option, eh?

Again, ****ty writing by polarising.

actually yah...if you had the choice of giving nuclear technology to the Taliban or Hitler..or you HAD to destroy it...which do you think would be the better path???

give me a break..

[C4Clan]

Suron wrote...

actually yah...if you had the choice of giving nuclear technology to the Taliban or Hitler..or you HAD to destroy it...which do you think would be the better path???

give me a break..

Wasn't the question why keeping the base is renegade, not why giving it to TIM is renegade. These are two choices, alas the second one is taken away from the player for an unexplained reason.
But to answer your question: If the threat is severe enough (and I personally would judge galaxy wide extinction to be quite severe) then siding with a terrorist (how much Cerberus can be labeled as a terrorist organization is for another debate) is a viable option.

The Reapers are an enemy that severely outguns and probably outmans every known military in the Mass Effect universe. Additionally they have the advantage to decide when to attack, whereas the Milky Way can only wait for them. Trying to fight them without trying to gain every imaginable advantage is just  plain irresponsible.

I would have loved a response by TIM along the lines of: "Sure Shepard, destroy the base: Keep your petty integrity. I will remind you of your superior morals once the reapers start to rip our fleets apart, burn our colonies and millions of people are dying because we have no way to counter their technology. Great to have you on our side."

Another thing: I would also consider the destruction of the collector base to be a disservice to the people that died in there. Without their suffering that base would never have been found. Destroying it would render their sacrifice meaningless.

[smudboy]

C4Clan wrote...
Wasn't the question why keeping the base is renegade, not why giving it to TIM is renegade. These are two choices, alas the second one is taken away from the player for an unexplained reason.
But to answer your question: If the threat is severe enough (and I personally would judge galaxy wide extinction to be quite severe) then siding with a terrorist (how much Cerberus can be labeled as a terrorist organization is for another debate) is a viable option.

The Reapers are an enemy that severely outguns and probably outmans every known military in the Mass Effect universe. Additionally they have the advantage to decide when to attack, whereas the Milky Way can only wait for them. Trying to fight them without trying to gain every imaginable advantage is just  plain irresponsible.

I would have loved a response by TIM along the lines of: "Sure Shepard, destroy the base: Keep your petty integrity. I will remind you of your superior morals once the reapers start to rip our fleets apart, burn our colonies and millions of people are dying because we have no way to counter their technology. Great to have you on our side."

Another thing: I would also consider the destruction of the collector base to be a disservice to the people that died in there. Without their suffering that base would never have been found. Destroying it would render their sacrifice meaningless.

Agree.  It actually isn't Renegade or Paragon, as the P/R system isn't even used to make the choice.  You simply get points in either P/R.  Which is odd, since 1) the game's over, 2) Blowing something up is clearly a Renegade attitude (get the job done), whereas preserving something over an ideal (protecting existence) would be Paragon.

Since you're railroaded into doing Cerberus' actions the entire game, I could understand anyone wanting to oppose TIM for any number of reasons, and using this as an opportunity to do so, to justify blowing it up.  An emotional reaction, and petty, considering the stakes.

As for destroying it, I always refer to this article:
www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/