582 réponses à ce sujet

[manyfistss]

Studying the effects reaper tech has and how best to defend oneself I think is the best idea. Collector technology is an offshoot of reaper tech, more of a techno-organic than fully mechanical as was the Dragon Teeth and stuff taken from a reaper. If you remember that attacks vs sovereign did jack to him unless his shield was down. With particle beam technology it could rip through their shields and destroy the reaper.



By destroying the base you lose out on potential weapons to use against the Reapers.

[AtreiyaN7]

Did you listen to TIM's speech? He's in this for human dominance - not just to safeguard humanity. In fact, I think he's a lot more interested in achieving personal power than humanity's survival. In another thread, I mentioned that Mordin and Legion have cautionary tales about how being handled a new-fangled technology that a society isn't ready for can be a recipe disaster or lead to dead-ends (not that that's ALWAYS the case though). As Sovereign said and as Legion repeats: the Reapers wanted intelligent races to find the mass relays, thus directing their development down the paths that the Reapers desired.

Initially I caved in, convinced by TIM on my first time through the suicide mission that maybe it was really a dire enough situation that saving the base was necessary. However, I redid the suicide mission after realizing that no, it's really NOT a good idea to hand something like the Collector base over to someone capable of major manipulation and deceit (plus, he had a seriously evil look on his face at the end when I DID keep the base intact). At any rate, I'm keeping both saves to see what happens in the future.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 01 février 2010 - 07:13 .

[john william]

He said all that garbage about human dominance after the fact.

Also, you should have kept it.  Shepard didn't have a chance to change his mind.  Live in the spirit of the game!

Modifié par john william, 01 février 2010 - 07:14 .

[jmood88]

jrubal1462 wrote...

I was going to pose this question because I thought I did ok, but when I got back to the ship everybody talked to me like I had just handed Hitler an atomic bomb. I probably would've given the tech to the council, if anybody asked my opinion, but it never came up. You've convinced me though: this is too much of a quick/easy way to power, especially if humans are keeping it all to themselves.

Fine, I'll go back and blow it up, but don't come crying to me when the reapers come back and all you have to defend yourselves with is a spider army.

lol I chose to keep it too and started regretting it after I talked to everyone, even Garrus, the guy who convinced me to keep it, was mad about it. I decided to just live with the consequences though and pick differently with my other imported Shepard. I didn't know that keeping the ship meant that it would just go to Cerberus though, I was thinking that it would go to the council. It also didn't make sense to me to destroy the whole base and start back at square one when I could have a Reaper and see be able to test weapons on it or use it's equipment to make better weapons/technology.

[Thrakkesh]

jmood888 wrote...

I was going to pose this question because I thought I did ok, but when I got back to the ship everybody talked to me like I had just handed Hitler an atomic bomb. I probably would've given the tech to the council, if anybody asked my opinion, but it never came up. You've convinced me though: this is too much of a quick/easy way to power, especially if humans are keeping it all to themselves.

.

You really think the Illusive Man would let you hand something over like that to the Council? For that matter, are you sure giving it the Council is that much of a better idea? 

Modifié par Thrakkesh, 01 février 2010 - 07:18 .

[flem1]

john william wrote...

Ugh. You guys live in fairy tale land! I make no apologies for keeping it. It will save lives!

If by "save" you mean "turn into grotesque trapped chunks of TIM's world-enslaving killing machine", yes.

[jmood88]

stillnotking wrote...
Trying to "use" a Reaper base isn't the Renegade option, it's the Hasn't Been Paying Attention option.  <_<

They were tricked into showing up at that Reaper and getting thee IFF, keeping the base and using it's technology is no different than using parts of Sovereign's software in EDI.

[flem1]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Did you listen to TIM's speech? He's in this for human dominance - not just to safeguard humanity.

Not even that:  he says afterwards that Cerberus IS humanity, so it seems it's as much about his domination of humanity as human domination of the other species.

Even Udina is more trustworthy.  Not by much, but...

[Monglor]

I think what it's important to remember is that The Illusive Man is not good people.



I was just glad to find out I didn't have a Deus Ex style kill-switch for my cybernetics.

[john william]

The Illusive Man was a tool my Shepard used to save humanity. The Collector base would be the same.

[Marlina]

All you nay-sayers are forgetting that the Thanix Cannon was made using retrieved Reaper tech. Besides, it could tell us what Reapers actually are, and thus, how to defeat them. It's obvious that it's in organics best interest to leave it intact. I have reservations about handing it over to the Illusive Man, but as long as his end goal coincides with my own, he's welcome to research it. I think it's a wee bit more important to make sure the Reapers are stopped once and for all than worrying about what some random human business tycoon with a crew of less than 150 will do with it. Surely he'll be easier to kill if he turns out to be a madman than an army of Reapers.

[john william]

Marlina wrote...

All you nay-sayers are forgetting that the Thanix Cannon was made using retrieved Reaper tech. Besides, it could tell us what Reapers actually are, and thus, how to defeat them. It's obvious that it's in organics best interest to leave it intact. I have reservations about handing it over to the Illusive Man, but as long as his end goal coincides with my own, he's welcome to research it. I think it's a wee bit more important to make sure the Reapers are stopped once and for all than worrying about what some random human business tycoon with a crew of less than 150 will do with it. Surely he'll be easier to kill if he turns out to be a madman than an army of Reapers.

So us sane types make up about 10% of the population.  Sounds about right.

[Thrakkesh]

Marlina wrote...

All you nay-sayers are forgetting that the Thanix Cannon was made using retrieved Reaper tech. Besides, it could tell us what Reapers actually are, and thus, how to defeat them. It's obvious that it's in organics best interest to leave it intact. I have reservations about handing it over to the Illusive Man, but as long as his end goal coincides with my own, he's welcome to research it. I think it's a wee bit more important to make sure the Reapers are stopped once and for all than worrying about what some random human business tycoon with a crew of less than 150 will do with it. Surely he'll be easier to kill if he turns out to be a madman than an army of Reapers.

I'm not forgetting that. I'm also not forgetting that the last bunch of humans that decided to look at a Derelict Reaper WENT CRAZY. I can't imagine a Reaper BASE is going to be any safer.

[Marlina]

Pretty much. It was the same with the rachni queen in ME1. I'm in the (supposed) minority who didn't trust that big alien bug.

It's simple though. It's logic vs. emotion. Paragons act on their emotions, like destroying the collector's base because they dislike the Illusive Man, and save the rachni because they feel sorry for her and because they (foolishly) just assume that she's telling the truth.

[DreVan]

yeah, because handing a device that can liquify entire sentient races to an organisation that thought using husks, thorian creepers and rachni as shock troops or torturing a girl to improve her biotic abilities were good ideas is really the smart, galaxy saving choice. The Illusive Man doesn't give a crap about humanity, it's all just rhetoric to manipulate those who do into putting him at the top of the pile.

[Marlina]

Thrakkesh wrote...

I'm not forgetting that. I'm also not forgetting that the last bunch of humans that decided to look at a Derelict Reaper WENT CRAZY. I can't imagine a Reaper BASE is going to be any safer.

It's not a Reaper base, it's a Collector base. Basically Prothean with a touch of Reaper. It looked NOTHING like the inside of the derelict Reaper. 

Besides, it's a risk we'll have to take. The needs of the many over the needs of the few, remember? If we have to sacrifice a few research teams in order to save the entirety of organic galactic civilization, then that shouldn't be a dilemma. 

[Marlina]

DreVan wrote...

yeah, because handing a device that can liquify entire sentient races to an organisation that thought using husks, thorian creepers and rachni as shock troops or torturing a girl to improve her biotic abilities were good ideas is really the smart, galaxy saving choice. The Illusive Man doesn't give a crap about humanity, it's all just rhetoric to manipulate those who do into putting him at the top of the pile.

That's all speculation on your part about Cerberus' motives. And I don't intend to let the Illusive Man get that far if he truly is an idiot. He'll be FAR easier to take down than the combined might of the Reaper armada.

And who said anything about USING the device? I'd just study it, and figure out what makes Reapers tick. That way, we know their weaknesses.

[Thrakkesh]

Marlina wrote...

Thrakkesh wrote...

I'm not forgetting that. I'm also not forgetting that the last bunch of humans that decided to look at a Derelict Reaper WENT CRAZY. I can't imagine a Reaper BASE is going to be any safer.

It's not a Reaper base, it's a Collector base. Basically Prothean with a touch of Reaper. It looked NOTHING like the inside of the derelict Reaper. 

Besides, it's a risk we'll have to take. The needs of the many over the needs of the few, remember? If we have to sacrifice a few research teams in order to save the entirety of organic galactic civilization, then that shouldn't be a dilemma. 

The Collectors are tools of the Reapers.  They were trying to build a Reaper in there. It's not just a touch of Reaper tech--it's a freaking Reaper Womb.  

And you wanna talk horror Scenarios?  TIM gets Indoctrinated.

...Yeah.  Go ahead and think about that one for a second.

[Diffident1]

I'm not to this point in the game yet but,
are you not the only one with a ship capable of reaching it.
So I'd see it as my base as the council or Cerberus for that matter has no way of getting to it.
Great pick up line as well, "Hey baby want to go party with me in the Galactic core." Heck if they don't put out just throw them in that body melter you all are talking about.

[stillnotking]

Considering that the ending you get if you give TIM the Reaper base is basically "BZZT, wrong choice, sucker", I think this argument is a little silly.

[AtreiyaN7]

Like I said, I myself took the pragmatic route on my first playthrough and saved the base for research, but I still have nagging concerns about what might happen. Did you forget those video logs from the derelict Reaper where you get the IFF? It was still capable of indoctrinating those Cerberus researchers and caused their minds to decay. This is with the derelict Reaper's conscious mind having been obliterated. Nobody's forgetting the Thannix Cannon. However, it was based on what were inert fragments from Sovereign, not a structurally intact Reaper or intact base. It's possible that the base itself or the Reaper larva might indoctrinate anyone who goes there, or maybe TIM will try researching indoctrination himself. I'm not condemning saving the base if you want to. The question the OP asked was whether or not it made sense that saving the base was a Renegade action, and it did appear to be based on TIM's actions afterwards.

As for my replaying it:

A) I'm entitled.
I found out that it was necessary to immediately do Legion's loyalty mission after the IFF if I wanted to save my crew.
C) I wanted to save my crew (see item .
D) It's truer to my nature, and I really wanted to flip TIM the bird basically.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 01 février 2010 - 07:55 .

[Marlina]

Thrakkesh wrote...

And you wanna talk horror Scenarios?  TIM gets Indoctrinated.

...Yeah.  Go ahead and think about that one for a second.

The Reaper regain the collector's base. So what? It's better if we already studied it. 

[WriteByTheSea]

I kept the station. The galaxy needed the advantage against the Reapers and we paid a high price to get that.



Besides, if it starts indoctrinating people or if TiM tries anything evil and stupid with it, I'll be there to kick his ass. I am Commander Shepard, after all.

[Marlina]

stillnotking wrote...

Considering that the ending you get if you give TIM the Reaper base is basically "BZZT, wrong choice, sucker", I think this argument is a little silly.

I bet you think renegade = evil and paragon = good. They aren't. 

This just goes back to Paragon = emotion and renegade = logic. You're basing your opinion on a slight smirk from a man who just won a major victory.

[Thrakkesh]

The Reaper regain the collector's base. So what? It's better if we already studied it. 

Or, TIM manages a way to indoctrinate most, if not all of Cerebrus, uses it's influence and abilities to destabilize the entire universe in ways Saren could only dream of, and screws things up so badly nobody can react when the Reapers actuallys how up.

I think you're underestimating the damage Cerebrus can't inflict.  We're talking about an organization here that privately funded a Warship that put the original Normandy to shame, brought a man BACK FROM THE DEAD, is known to the entire universe as Pro-human boogeymen, and, might I add, has an intelligence network so extensive they handed you the way to turn back the Collectors on a Silver Platter.

Even if you think the Reaper base must be studied--the last person in the Galaxy that should get the first shot is the freaking Illusive Man.

Modifié par Thrakkesh, 01 février 2010 - 07:52 .