582 réponses à ce sujet

[Marlina]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Nobody's forgetting the Thannix Cannon. However, it was based on what were inert fragments from Sovereign, not a structurally intact Reaper or intact base. It's possible that the base itself or the Reaper larva might indoctrinate anyone who goes there, or maybe TIM will try researching indoctrination himself.

Then pick it apart and study it. ANY study is better than NO study. Who cares if a few scientist teams go mad? They don't matter compared to the billions of lives saved if you stop the Reapers with this research. 

[Pauravi]

Samara and Legion both say interesting things about it.



Samara says that the Illusive Man believes he has the wisdom to use the technology. He does not.

Legion points out that using the Reaper's technology blinded us to other options, reminding that Sovereign even told us: the mass relay technology and Citadel they built is what allows them to eradicate everyone so easily.



I had a hard time deciding this too, but the more I talk to my crewmates the more I think that destroying it is the RIGHT choice. We have no idea what sort of technology or information the base contains, but I certainly don't trust Cerberus to use it well, nor can anyone guarantee that it would not be ultimately detrimental. Perhaps the Reapers could re-assert control of the base and begin indoctrinating people? A thousand things might happen, and at least half of them are bad.

[Thrakkesh]

[quote]AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Nobody's forgetting the Thannix Cannon. However, it was based on what were inert fragments from Sovereign, not a structurally intact Reaper or intact base. It's possible that the base itself or the Reaper larva might indoctrinate anyone who goes there, or maybe TIM will try researching indoctrination himself. [/quote]
Then pick it apart and study it. ANY study is better than NO study. Who cares if a few scientist teams go mad? They don't matter compared to the billions of lives saved if you stop the Reapers with this research. [/quote]

To get back slightly more on topic--see that logic right there?

That's why it's a Renegade choice. 

[Marlina]

Thrakkesh wrote...

Or, TIM manages a way to indoctrinate most, if not all of Cerebrus, uses it's influence and abilities to destabilize the entire universe in ways Saren could only dream of, and screws things up so badly nobody can react when the Reapers actuallys how up.

I think you're underestimating the damage Cerebrus can't inflict.  We're talking about an organization here that privately funded a Warship that put the original Normandy to shame, brought a man BACK FROM THE DEAD, is known to the entire universe as Pro-human boogeymen, and, might I add, has an intelligence network so extensive they handed you the way to turn back the Collectors on a Silver Platter.

Even if you think the Reaper base must be studied--the last person in the Galaxy that should get the first shot is the freaking Illusive Man.

That can happen regardless.

If you think the entirety of Cerberus is moving to the base, then I think you're severely underestimating the Illusive Man's intelligence. He has observed the effects of indoctrination already, he won't just go in there. Rather send expendable research teams or possibly send robots in to extract the tech. No need to move his entire base of operations there.

[justinprince]

and think... if the way to construct a reaper is to make organic paste... who will decide the sacrifice. humanity would be no better than the reapers

[Thrakkesh]

You can be eaten by sharks every time you swim in the ocean, doesn't mean you should dump a gallon of blood in the water and thrash around like a madman.

It's not the intelligence of TIM I underestimate, it's his arrogance I'm worried about.  He's playing with a very dangerous and very, very large toy.  The Council would be no better (they're grossly incompetent at best) but Cerebrus isn't the best option either.  The man is driven beyond all reason to achieve his goals: The last kind of person on earth I want to hand intact Reaper technology to.   and there's nothing--NOTHING--saying TIM won't say 'screw you' to me as soon as he gets what he wants and tries to tackle the problem himself.

Also, who says they have to move the base to get screwed? All that has to happen is high-ranking Cerebrus to get indoctrinated--or at worst, TIM.  

Modifié par Thrakkesh, 01 février 2010 - 08:03 .

[Poomba]

Marlina wrote...
And who said anything about USING the device? I'd just study it, and figure out what makes Reapers tick. That way, we know their weaknesses.

Except that's exactly what TIM was going to do. I'm pretty sure he said "why not use their power against them" or something of the sort at the end. He also made it very clear that he would've used the base to gain humanity's dominance AFTER the Reapers are defeated.

So YOU (Shep) may study it, but the renegade option was to hand the base over to TIM. Do you think he would've just studied it?

[Marlina]

justinprince wrote...

and think... if the way to construct a reaper is to make organic paste... who will decide the sacrifice. humanity would be no better than the reapers

Who said anything about creating a new reaper? I think that'd be a bad idea, considering the immense resources required for just one single reaper, plus the fact that they probably couldn't control it.

[defenestrated]

Marlina wrote...

Besides, it's a risk we'll have to take. The needs of the many over the needs of the few, remember? If we have to sacrifice a few research teams in order to save the entirety of organic galactic civilization, then that shouldn't be a dilemma.

It's might not be a dilemma if that's the only option. Otherwise, you're taking a shortcut using tech involved in murdering millions of people that you're handing over to a dubiously ethical organization that seems to want to dominate the universe. It's a viable option but it's Renegade.

What strikes me as interesting is that the basic ethical dilemma is very similar to the one at the end of Mordin's loyalty quest but with alignment reversed. Actually, it's a little similar to Legion's too.

[KalliChan07]

Thrakkesh wrote...





You can be eaten by sharks every time you swim in the ocean, doesn't mean you should dump a gallon of blood in the water and thrash around like a madman.

It's not the intelligence of TIM I underestimate, it's his arrogance I'm worried about.  He's playing with a very dangerous and very, very large toy.  The Council would be no better (they're grossly incompetent at best) but Cerebrus isn't the best option either.  The man is driven beyond all reason to achieve his goals: The last kind of person on earth I want to hand intact Reaper technology to.   and there's nothing--NOTHING--saying TIM won't say 'screw you' to me as soon as he gets what he wants and tries to tackle the problem himself.

Also, who says they have to move the base to get screwed? All that has to happen is high-ranking Cerebrus to get indoctrinated--or at worst, TIM.  

I never thought about TIM being indoctrinated, very interesting plot twist!

Honestly, I gave it to him on Renegade because to me it's a total setup for Shepard to have another big shiny something to destroy.  I couldn't see Shepard just letting Cerberus run around with that thing and not keep it in check.  Well, here's hoping at least!

[stillnotking]

Marlina wrote...

stillnotking wrote...

Considering that the ending you get if you give TIM the Reaper base is basically "BZZT, wrong choice, sucker", I think this argument is a little silly.

I bet you think renegade = evil and paragon = good. They aren't. 

This just goes back to Paragon = emotion and renegade = logic. You're basing your opinion on a slight smirk from a man who just won a major victory.

Um, no, not at all.  I think the Renegade choice is very often the "good" choice (like executing the Batarians on Omega -- Mordin's assistant is horrified but Mordin agrees with you that they were dangerous people and it's a lawless situation).  Sorry to cost you the Karnak award but I am in no way biased against Renegade options in general.

But come on.  Watch that ending again.  TIM just oozes a lust for power.  Shepard is visibly discomfited and even Miranda says it might have been a bad idea if you talk to her afterward.

[AtreiyaN7]

Marlina wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Nobody's forgetting the Thannix Cannon. However, it was based on what were inert fragments from Sovereign, not a structurally intact Reaper or intact base. It's possible that the base itself or the Reaper larva might indoctrinate anyone who goes there, or maybe TIM will try researching indoctrination himself.

Then pick it apart and study it. ANY study is better than NO study. Who cares if a few scientist teams go mad? They don't matter compared to the billions of lives saved if you stop the Reapers with this research. 

Please reread things - the OP's initial question was about why saving the base was considered a Renegade action - reasons that have been  laid out. Also, since I apparently have to repeat myself again: let me make it clear that even though I'm a Paragon, I DID save the base the FIRST time based on the logical reasoning that researching Reaper technology might be worth the risk (that and the fact that TIM is a persuasive man). *rolleyes*

I kept that save, but because I was replaying to save my entire crew anyway, I wanted to take the Paragon route as well for reasons stated previously.  i have kept BOTH saves and will see how they play out in the future, thank you. *sigh*

[Marlina]

Thrakkesh wrote...

You can be eaten by sharks every time you swim in the ocean, doesn't mean you should dump a gallon of blood in the water and thrash around like a madman.

It's not the intelligence of TIM I underestimate, it's his arrogance I'm worried about.  He's playing with a very dangerous and very, very large toy.  The Council would be no better (they're grossly incompetent at best) but Cerebrus isn't the best option either.  The man is driven beyond all reason to achieve his goals: The last kind of person on earth I want to hand intact Reaper technology to.   and there's nothing--NOTHING--saying TIM won't say 'screw you' to me as soon as he gets what he wants and tries to tackle the problem himself.

Also, who says they have to move the base to get screwed? All that has to happen is high-ranking Cerebrus to get indoctrinated--or at worst, TIM.  

I see your shark analogy and raise another one: It's better to have studied sharks if you're gonna fight them, even if you might lose a finger (more like a fingernail) in the process. 

Like I said, I have my reservations about just handing it over to TIM, but he's pretty much the only with the resources and will to do it. Like I said, he'll be easier to deal with than an entire reaper army if he turns out to be a loony.

TIM retains control, any indoctrinated officer would be dealt with in short order. And again, this is where you're underestimating TIM's intelligence. He may be arrogant, but he's not stupid. He has seen what indoctrination can do to people. I highly doubt he's gonna just let himself get indoctrinated, just like that.

Poomba wrote...

Except that's exactly what TIM was going to do. I'm pretty sure he said "why not use their power against them" or something of the sort at the end. He also made it very clear that he would've used the base to gain humanity's dominance AFTER the Reapers are defeated.

So YOU (Shep) may study it, but the renegade option was to hand the base over to TIM. Do you think he would've just studied it?

You're just speculating about TIM's motives based on your perception of him thus far. 

[Poomba]

Marlina wrote...

You're just speculating about TIM's motives based on your perception of him thus far. 

Maybe I wasn't clear, what I said about using it on the Reapers and using it post-Reaper to gain Humanity's dominance is what he said. It might have been post-Paragon choice but he definitely lets you know what his intentions were.

[Marlina]

stillnotking wrote...

Um, no, not at all.  I think the Renegade choice is very often the "good" choice (like executing the Batarians on Omega -- Mordin's assistant is horrified but Mordin agrees with you that they were dangerous people and it's a lawless situation).  Sorry to cost you the Karnak award but I am in no way biased against Renegade options in general.

But come on.  Watch that ending again.  TIM just oozes a lust for power.  Shepard is visibly discomfited and even Miranda says it might have been a bad idea if you talk to her afterward.

So you actually think Bioware made this single choice a clear-cut "good" and "bad" one, yet left every other choice a matter of interpretation?

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Please reread things - the OP's initial question was about why saving the base was considered a Renegade action - reasons that have been  laid out. Also, since I apparently have to repeat myself again: let me make it clear that even though I'm a Paragon, I DID save the base the FIRST time based on the logical reasoning that researching Reaper technology might be worth the risk (that and the fact that TIM is a persuasive man). *rolleyes*

I kept that save, but because I was replaying to save my entire crew anyway, I wanted to take the Paragon route as well for reasons stated previously.  i have kept BOTH saves and will see how they play out in the future, thank you. *sigh*

I know you're talking about the OP original point, but I disagreed with just a fragment of your statement, the fragment I quoted.

[Marlina]

Poomba wrote...

Maybe I wasn't clear, what I said about using it on the Reapers and using it post-Reaper to gain Humanity's dominance is what he said. It might have been post-Paragon choice but he definitely lets you know what his intentions were.

No, you were perfectly clear, but TIM was not. He does NOT say "Haha, I'm the evil overlord that will screw you over because I'm a giant ****, thanks for giving me the reaper tech so I can proceed to crush the galaxy under my iron heel!"

Or perhaps we should get the full transcript in here. I don't have it on hand. I distinctly remember him being sort of vague though.

[OldMan91]

He specifically says that the reaper base technology could have been used to "secure human dominance, against the reapers and beyond".

[Thrakkesh]

[quote]

You can be eaten by sharks every time you swim in the ocean, doesn't mean you should dump a gallon of blood in the water and thrash around like a madman. [/quote]

Falls apart at the point where nobody who's studied Sharks has suddenly become pro-shark and became subverted to a Pro-shark agenda.

[/quote]
Maybe I am underestimating him, maybe not--either way, it's a huge gamble on the Illusive Man, one that he has frankly in no way proven to me he's worth taking.  He's withheld information from me at several points in the game, proven his tendency to play games, and has demonstrated, on at least a few occasions that the ends justify the means, he's a man ultimately that will take risks, and this risk carries one hell of a price.  I would not put it past him to make a stupid gambit using whatever Reaper technology he had first. 

Though to play devil's advocate, I had thought of using Jack's origin to be an example of such, but realized that Jack's 'research' was the very foundation of the Ascension program, which ended up turning out decent for Biotics, I suppose.  You are also right on one thing as well: Regardless of my thoughts, it's pretty clear that TIM recognizes the Reapers are the real threat.   For anyone suggesting the Council, all I have to say is with TIM at least you'd guarantee he'd use it on the Reapers first...

And considering the wider view, there is another danger involved in TIM getting his hands on the tech--even if he might mean well, the Galaxy will not see it that way. The last thing the universe needs is the Council to freak out suspecting Cerebrus up to something and forcing both sides to committ resources to some kind of Shadow War. The very act of Cerebrus having the tech could spark a galaxy-wide war big enough to leave them both too battered for the Reapers.

[Marlina]

OldMan91 wrote...

He specifically says that the reaper base technology could have been used to "secure human dominance, against the reapers and beyond".

For the moment, our goals coincide. Let's worry about the Reaper threat first, THEN worry about some loony with a bit too much spare time on his hands.

[stillnotking]

Marlina wrote...

stillnotking wrote...

Um, no, not at all.  I think the Renegade choice is very often the "good" choice (like executing the Batarians on Omega -- Mordin's assistant is horrified but Mordin agrees with you that they were dangerous people and it's a lawless situation).  Sorry to cost you the Karnak award but I am in no way biased against Renegade options in general.

But come on.  Watch that ending again.  TIM just oozes a lust for power.  Shepard is visibly discomfited and even Miranda says it might have been a bad idea if you talk to her afterward.

So you actually think Bioware made this single choice a clear-cut "good" and "bad" one, yet left every other choice a matter of interpretation?

There are plenty of choices in both games where one outcome is clearly worse than another.  Making people mad or letting them die can make your job harder by costing you squadmates, upgrades, money, etc.  Look at the final mission: making bad decisions gets your people killed.

Now, do I think ME3 will be unwinnable if you gave TIM the Reaper base?  Of course not.  But the "Very Bad Idea" signaling in that ending couldn't have been much clearer.

[OldMan91]

I'd rather not give him the collector base at all. Besides there is already tech out there which can help against the reapers. For example, that weapon used against the derelict reaper.

Modifié par OldMan91, 01 février 2010 - 08:33 .

[Shady314]

john william wrote...

Bioware's morality makes about as much sense here as the whole "destroy the council/save the council" dilemma at the end of ME1.  Which is to say none at all.  I actually resisted the urge to keep the collector base but I couldn't argue against Illusive Man's cold, hard logic.  There's no question that the galactic civilization is better off with the treasure trove of secrets that is the collector base.

At the end of WW2 it came to light that both the Germans and the Japanese conducted horrifying experiments on live human subjects and made certain breakthroughs because of it.  Would the allies have performed those same experiments.  Of course not.  Did the allies throw their research away?  Hell freaking naw!

You didn't throw their research away. You threw away the lab equipment and torture devices that were used to make them.

Sovereign has the best argument in ME1 for why you should blow it up. The Reapers WANT you to find and use their technology. They have a trillion years headstart. You are not going to catch up to them in their own fields of research and as long as you rely on the Reapers for all your advancement they will know your every move.

We guide you down the paths we choose....

[Sursion]

Saving the base for Cerberus = Human dominance



Human dominance = Arrogance and refusal for cooperation



Arrogance and refusal for cooperation = Renegade

[Marlina]

Thrakkesh wrote...

Falls apart at the point where nobody who's studied Sharks has suddenly become pro-shark and became subverted to a Pro-shark agenda.

Maybe I am underestimating him, maybe not--either way, it's a huge gamble on the Illusive Man, one that he has frankly in no way proven to me he's worth taking.  He's withheld information from me at several points in the game, proven his tendency to play games, and has demonstrated, on at least a few occasions that the ends justify the means, he's a man ultimately that will take risks, and this risk carries one hell of a price.  I would not put it past him to make a stupid gambit using whatever Reaper technology he had first. 

Though to play devil's advocate, I had thought of using Jack's origin to be an example of such, but realized that Jack's 'research' was the very foundation of the Ascension program, which ended up turning out decent for Biotics, I suppose.  You are also right on one thing as well: Regardless of my thoughts, it's pretty clear that TIM recognizes the Reapers are the real threat.   For anyone suggesting the Council, all I have to say is with TIM at least you'd guarantee he'd use it on the Reapers first...

And considering the wider view, there is another danger involved in TIM getting his hands on the tech--even if he might mean well, the Galaxy will not see it that way. The last thing the universe needs is the Council to freak out suspecting Cerebrus up to something and forcing both sides to committ resources to some kind of Shadow War. The very act of Cerebrus having the tech could spark a galaxy-wide war big enough to leave them both too battered for the Reapers.

Losing a finger = losing a few dozen scientists in my analogy. Let's call it an infection instead, and that you have to amputate a finger.

Your argument resembles the same as the one for saving the council in ME1. It's simply silly, because it ignores the fact that the more immediate threat (the reapers) trump all other threats. 

As for the last part, Cerberus is considered top-secret for a reason. If ANYONE is able to study it without sparking an interstellar incident, it's them. It's a risk we'll have to take. The alternative (facing the reapers without proper preparation) would prove disastrous, considering what a single reaper did to the council fleet. 

[Marlina]

stillnotking wrote...

There are plenty of choices in both games where one outcome is clearly worse than another.  Making people mad or letting them die can make your job harder by costing you squadmates, upgrades, money, etc.  Look at the final mission: making bad decisions gets your people killed.

Now, do I think ME3 will be unwinnable if you gave TIM the Reaper base?  Of course not.  But the "Very Bad Idea" signaling in that ending couldn't have been much clearer.

Those decisions that are clear-cut good or bad aren't based on renegade or paragon answers. They're like "research this or don't" and "put the right man on the job or don't". They don't have anything to do with ethics. 
I don't think Bioware would back out on this design philosophy.