582 réponses à ce sujet

[JawaJoey]

I thought destroying the base was clearly the better option, logically and morally.



1. Every attempt so far to study Reaper technology went horribly wrong. The fact that it is so advanced and so malicious means that even studying it is dangerous.



2. EDI, the most advanced AI Cerberus (or anyone) could buy, was basically powerless against the virus that screwed over the Normandy. It's very foolish to assume that "Oh, we'll be fine *this* time" when trying to study an important reaper installation like the Collector base.



3. Normal human endeavors to fight the reapers have turned out pretty well so far. Sovereign, an actual reaper, wasn't immune to a normal fleet. The Collectors and their Reaper technology weren't difficult to beat using conventional means. It's not like humanity desperately needs an advantage to have any prayer of beating the reapers. Why risk it when there is so much hope?



4. Then of course there's the fact that TIM is not a nice guy. He's after human dominance of the galaxy, not just an edge over the reapers. And he thinks that "Cerberus is humanity" which is a pretty arrogant and even insulting stance.

[Thrakkesh]

Right, but you might not 'lose' Scientists, and you may not realize they're infected until its too late. And like I said--if the TIM is one of them, you're screwed. You trust that he's not that stupid--I don't.



Simply being involved with Cerebrus will warrant the Council's attention a little sharper, and researching something of that magnitude will require a LOT of resources to be moved, multiple ships using the Omega 4 relay. I'll bet there are Salarian ops monitoring Omega. It's a huge risk. It's not the same as destroying the Council--not even slightly. Taking down Sarens' ship is a justifiable (and true) excuse. This is you deliberately handing Cerebrus the keys to something incredibly powerful. They can--and will--react.



I also find it interesting that you suggest that keeping the Aliens on the good side of things is a bad idea--even with the Reaper base, you think it's going to take just humans to take down the Reapers? If the other races are too afraid of us screwing them all over and decide to take us down a peg, everybody loses.

[Marlina]

Shady314 wrote...

You didn't throw their research away. You threw away the lab equipment and torture devices that were used to make them.

Sovereign has the best argument in ME1 for why you should blow it up. The Reapers WANT you to find and use their technology. They have a trillion years headstart. You are not going to catch up to them in their own fields of research and as long as you rely on the Reapers for all your advancement they will know your every move.

We guide you down the paths we choose....

They clearly didn't want us to find the collector's base.

[aaniadyen]

JawaJoey wrote...

I thought destroying the base was clearly the better option, logically and morally.

1. Every attempt so far to study Reaper technology went horribly wrong. The fact that it is so advanced and so malicious means that even studying it is dangerous.

Not necisarily. The reason why the upgraded Thanix cannons were so effective against the collector ship was because they are Reaper tech. The Turians salvaged it from Sovergn's corpse after the events of ME1. They managed to duplicate it on a small scale.

[aaniadyen]

Ugh, double post.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 01 février 2010 - 08:51 .

[The_mango55]

I didn't want to read this whole thread, so @ OP



cold, hard logic is the calling card of the renegade.

[Marlina]

Thrakkesh wrote...

Right, but you might not 'lose' Scientists, and you may not realize they're infected until its too late. And like I said--if the TIM is one of them, you're screwed. You trust that he's not that stupid--I don't.

Simply being involved with Cerebrus will warrant the Council's attention a little sharper, and researching something of that magnitude will require a LOT of resources to be moved, multiple ships using the Omega 4 relay. I'll bet there are Salarian ops monitoring Omega. It's a huge risk. It's not the same as destroying the Council--not even slightly. Taking down Sarens' ship is a justifiable (and true) excuse. This is you deliberately handing Cerebrus the keys to something incredibly powerful. They can--and will--react.

I also find it interesting that you suggest that keeping the Aliens on the good side of things is a bad idea--even with the Reaper base, you think it's going to take just humans to take down the Reapers? If the other races are too afraid of us screwing them all over and decide to take us down a peg, everybody loses.

See? You admit that you think TIM is unintelligent. (Or rather, you don't "trust him to be intelligent".)

Then get the council in on it. It's in their best interest to stop the reapers.

I never said anything about keeping aliens outside. The only reason Cerberus is the best alternative is because only they know that you need to break some eggs to make an omelet. Of course, if the STG wanted in on it, I'd be happy to let them, but they seem to have too close ties with their government, meaning that they'd get bogged down by petty politics. The beauty (and admittedly, scariness) with Cerberus is their independent status.

[aaniadyen]

aaniadyen wrote...

Marlina wrote...

Shady314 wrote...

You didn't throw their research away. You threw away the lab equipment and torture devices that were used to make them.

Sovereign has the best argument in ME1 for why you should blow it up. The Reapers WANT you to find and use their technology. They have a trillion years headstart. You are not going to catch up to them in their own fields of research and as long as you rely on the Reapers for all your advancement they will know your every move.

We guide you down the paths we choose....

They clearly didn't want us to find the collector's base.

You don't think they know what's stored there? It's as simple as
Harbinger telling the other reapers "Ok, they captured the collector
base, so they are going to have access to this technology. As such...we
will use this technology. It worked easily enough on the protheans 50k
years ago. Let's just do it again!"

Modifié par aaniadyen, 01 février 2010 - 08:50 .

[Marlina]

aaniadyen wrote...

You don't think they know what's stored there? It's as simple as Harbinger telling the other reapers "Ok, they captured the collector base, so they are going to have access to this technology. As such...we will use this technology. It worked easily enough on the protheans 50k years ago. Let's just do it again!

We don't need to use the technology we find, we just need to understand it.

[Kalfear]

stillnotking wrote...

The ME2 ending makes more sense from a Paragon/Renegade standpoint than the ME1 ending. A Paragon would destroy the base because "it's an abomination" (as the dialogue choice says), while a Renegade would try to use it to fight the Reapers. Then there's the fact that it comes down to siding with Cerberus or defying Cerberus, and for the entire game the Renegade option is to side with them.

How was the ME1 ending not clear to you?

You save everyone = good
You save select few = bad

Whats so freaking hard to understand about that?

[Thrakkesh]

I think he's stupid in that he rarely considers the consequences of his actions, and 'ends justify the means' is a mantra for him. He strikes me as reckless.

But if he's possibly stupid, the Council is INCREDIBLY stupid. Are we talking about the same Council that went on to denying the Reapers exist after seeing nearly destroy Citadel Station? No thanks.

Personally, left to my own I'd go Rogue, or at least keep an incredibly watchful eye on TIM--but he would never stand for that. Given the choice present in the game--I've managed to beat back the Reapers twice so far. Continuing to fight them with what I know versus giving them a possible means to get the 'keys to the citadel' again, or destabilize the galaxy--their plan, I remind you, is the safer option.

Modifié par Thrakkesh, 01 février 2010 - 08:55 .

[Marlina]

Kalfear wrote...

How was the ME1 ending not clear to you?

You save everyone = good
You save select few = bad

Whats so freaking hard to understand about that?

Benefit of hindsight. Risking the lives of everyone in the galaxy for a few thousand crewmen + three councilors vs. maximizing your shot at stopping galactic devastation.

But I'll agree that it was clear. Renegade = ends justify the means (council is expendable), paragon = BUT.. BUT... MY PERSONAL MORALS! D: (have to try to save everyone, even if it's risky)

[ShadowAldrius]

Marlina wrote...

This just goes back to Paragon = emotion and renegade = logic. You're basing your opinion on a slight smirk from a man who just won a major victory.

Except it doesn't. There is logic to both paths, and there's emotion to both paths. (Renegade involves a CRAPLOAD of ego and being incredibly quick to anger.)

Paragon = high risk, high reward. Long-term solutions with initial risks that may or may not pay off. It's the more responsible path.

Renegade = quickest, simplest, most direct solution.

Killing the rachni queen means she's no longer a problem. Sparing her means you have to have faith that she'll make good on her promise. If she does, then... you know, you didn't just commit genocide. If she doesn't, then you'll have to take responsibility for your decision.

One is safer, to be sure, but one is 'right'. One can reap the greater reward. (Saving an extinct species from destruction, a potentially powerful ally in a future war with the reapers, so many benefits if the gamble pays off, and it's not even that huge a gamble.)

Taking the paragon path here means you're not going to have access to questionable technology to battle a foe with. Meaning you'll have to look elsewhere for answers. It also means you're not trusting the guy who unleashed reaper technology on a human colony in ME1.

I seriously don't understand why anyone would trust the Illusive Man over the Rachni Queen, though. The Rachni queen is an innocent alien in a jar who has yet to actually DO anything, and she talks. (She was born in an exo-geni lab) And who heavily implies that the Rachni War was the result of Reaper indoctrination. Over a man who... unleashed reaper technology on a colony, refuses to work with established government powers and is extremely xenophobic.

Just saying.

But I'll agree that it was clear. Renegade = ends justify the
means (council is expendable), paragon = BUT.. BUT... MY PERSONAL
MORALS! D: (have to try to save everyone, even if it's risky)

Oh yeah, you certainly don't think one path is wrong and one path is right... nosiree...

There are lots of good logical reasons for saving the council. It's got nothing to do with emotions or 'personal morals'.

Modifié par ShadowAldrius, 01 février 2010 - 09:01 .

[Jersey75639]

Is this a serious thread? You paid attention to the dialogue, you understand that there are risks with indoctrination, and not to mention you have an idea of what TIM would do with the tech, and you wonder why this would be a renegade choice?



Really?

[Marlina]

Thrakkesh wrote...

I think he's stupid in that he rarely considers the consequences of his actions, and 'ends justify the means' is a mantra for him. He strikes me as reckless.

But if he's possibly stupid, the Council is INCREDIBLY stupid. Are we talking about the same Council that went on to denying the Reapers exist after seeing nearly destroy Citadel Station? No thanks.

Personally, left to my own I'd go Rogue, or at least keep an incredibly watchful eye on TIM--but he would never stand for that. Given the choice present in the game--I've managed to beat back the Reapers twice so far. Continuing to fight them with what I know versus giving them a possible means to get the 'keys to the citadel' again, or destabilize the galaxy--their plan, I remind you, is the safer option.

Rarely considers the consequences of his actions? Such as?

Actually, I let them die. But yeah, all I'm saying is, it's a risk we would have to take to leave them out of it and hope they didn't stick their noses into.

Renegade is pretty much going rogue. You tell the illusive man that you spared the base, but that you're out for the reapers, and if he wants to tag along, feel free. If not, stay the hell out of my way.

I'd say the risk of not having enough to stop the reapers when they finally get her is of far greater concern than all these speculations of what could happen if cerberus gets their hands on the base.

[senojones]

This base was used to liquefy and process thousands of humans ALIVE. That abomination of a collector base would never been worth keeping around, regardless of how much awesome information or technology it gives.



Its not a question of logic, its a question of right or wrong.

[aeetos21]

Because the tech is based off butchering innocents and Shepard refuses to compromise his own humanity just to get an advantage. Renegade has no beef with that, he knows he's going to hell, he might as well try to burn the rest of the galaxy down before that happens.

[Marlina]

ShadowAldrius wrote...

Except it doesn't. There is logic to both paths, and there's emotion to both paths. (Renegade involves a CRAPLOAD of ego and being incredibly quick to anger.)

Paragon = high risk, high reward. Long-term solutions with initial risks that may or may not pay off. It's the more responsible path.

Renegade = quickest, simplest, most direct solution.

Killing the rachni queen means she's no longer a problem. Sparing her means you have to have faith that she'll make good on her promise. If she does, then... you know, you didn't just commit genocide. If she doesn't, then you'll have to take responsibility for your decision.

One is safer, to be sure, but one is 'right'. One can reap the greater reward. (Saving an extinct species from destruction, a potentially powerful ally in a future war with the reapers, so many benefits if the gamble pays off, and it's not even that huge a gamble.)

Taking the paragon path here means you're not going to have access to questionable technology to battle a foe with. Meaning you'll have to look elsewhere for answers. It also means you're not trusting the guy who unleashed reaper technology on a human colony in ME1.

I seriously don't understand why anyone would trust the Illusive Man over the Rachni Queen, though. The Rachni queen is an innocent alien in a jar who has yet to actually DO anything, and she talks. (She was born in an exo-geni lab) And who heavily implies that the Rachni War was the result of Reaper indoctrination. Over a man who... unleashed reaper technology on a colony, refuses to work with established government powers and is extremely xenophobic.

Just saying.

Fine: Paragon = optimistic, renegade = "better safe than sorry"/realist
I'd argue the second path is the more logical.

Oh yeah, you certainly don't think one path is wrong and one path is right... nosiree...

There are lots of good logical reasons for saving the council. It's got nothing to do with emotions or 'personal morals'.

I was being facetious. IN MY OPINION, saving the council was a foolish move. it's still very much left open to the interpretation of the audience.

[Shady314]

Marlina wrote...

Shady314 wrote...

You didn't throw their research away. You threw away the lab equipment and torture devices that were used to make them.

Sovereign has the best argument in ME1 for why you should blow it up. The Reapers WANT you to find and use their technology. They have a trillion years headstart. You are not going to catch up to them in their own fields of research and as long as you rely on the Reapers for all your advancement they will know your every move.

We guide you down the paths we choose....

They clearly didn't want us to find the collector's base.

And they didn't want the Protheans to mess with the Keepers and stop them from re-opening the Citadel. Point? I'm not saying the Reapers have a grand plan involving Cerberus taking the place and we'll ultimately lose at the end of ME 3 if we saved it. That'd be ridiculous. Just pointing out studying Reaper tech is only going to teach us how to be like the Reapers.


Careful when gazing into the abyss ya know?

[Marlina]

aeetos21 wrote...

Because the tech is based off butchering innocents and Shepard refuses to compromise his own humanity just to get an advantage. Renegade has no beef with that, he knows he's going to hell, he might as well try to burn the rest of the galaxy down before that happens.

I was with you up till the second part of the last sentence. He might as well try to SAVE the rest of the galaxy, you dork! He's sacrificing his humanity FOR THE BENEFIT of the many. He might be going to hell, but it's for a good cause. The ends justify the means.

[Marlina]

Shady314 wrote...

And they didn't want the Protheans to mess with the Keepers and stop them from re-opening the Citadel. Point? I'm not saying the Reapers have a grand plan involving Cerberus taking the place and we'll ultimately lose at the end of ME 3 if we saved it. That'd be ridiculous. Just pointing out studying Reaper tech is only going to teach us how to be like the Reapers.

Careful when gazing into the abyss ya know?

Not necessarily. We don't have to adopt reaper tech, we could just understand it and build weapons of our own to combat it based on that knowledge.

EDIT: Have to sleep now, work tomorrow. I'll be back. 

Modifié par Marlina, 01 février 2010 - 09:12 .

[Thrakkesh]

Renegade is not evil. Ends justify the means. Understanding that viewpoint frames the conversation. A Rengade does not want to 'burn the Galaxy'--Reapers die, and that's all that's important.

I disagree with your assessment. I don't think TIM can be trusted, nor do I think, for all your bluster, that you can control any of his stupidity. The same logic TIM is using is very likely the same logic Saren used. Nothing good can be gained from looking too closely at the Reapers, and I have no intention of getting burned by it.

[ShadowAldrius]

Marlina wrote...

Fine: Paragon = optimistic, renegade = "better safe than sorry"/realist
I'd argue the second path is the more logical.

Maybe, but the paragon path isn't *IILOGICAL*. Also I think it's hard to sum up paragon with a single word (maybe 'complicated' I suppose.) There's idealism for sure, but I wouldn't say it's naivete or blind optimism. There's a good chance that a lot of what's done will pay off.

I was being facetious. IN MY OPINION, saving the council was a foolish move. it's still very much left open to the interpretation of the audience.

Okay, sorry, I didn't mean to be so flippant.

And yes, very much open to interpretation. Though I'd still say that paragon is often treated as the *right* way of doing things. But the right way isn't always the best way I guess.

The ends justify the means.

Which is an incredibly dangerous way of thinking. You can justify doing almost anything with 'the ends justify the means'...

Modifié par ShadowAldrius, 01 février 2010 - 09:19 .

[Thrakkesh]

I played through Paragon as well as Renegade--put bluntly, I'm pretty damn convinced Saving the Citadel was a stupid move.

[aeetos21]

I could've worded it better, true, but what I'm trying to say is he'll let the galaxy burn so long as he completes his mission to defeat the reapers.



Well at least mine would =)