Marlina wrote...
I was with you up till the second part of the last sentence. He might as well try to SAVE the rest of the galaxy, you dork! He's sacrificing his humanity FOR THE BENEFIT of the many. He might be going to hell, but it's for a good cause. The ends justify the means.
Thrakkesh wrote...
I played through Paragon as well as Renegade--put bluntly, I'm pretty damn convinced Saving the Citadel was a stupid move.
Modifié par ShadowAldrius, 01 février 2010 - 09:22 .
Thrakkesh wrote...
Eh. Once there's concrete proof for the reaper's existence, they'll take action. They kinda need proof first. Can't act solely on one man's heresay after all (even a man they owe a personal debt to).
It's not stupid... it's just... beaurocracy. Anyway, even if they did admit that the Reapers existed, there isn't much more they could do for you than what they did (make you a spectre). At least not in Mass Effect 2.
Thrakkesh wrote...
[Thrakkesh wrote...
Eh. Once there's concrete proof for the reaper's existence, they'll take action. They kinda need proof first. Can't act solely on one man's heresay after all (even a man they owe a personal debt to).
It's not stupid... it's just... beaurocracy. Anyway, even if they did admit that the Reapers existed, there isn't much more they could do for you than what they did (make you a spectre). At least not in Mass Effect 2.
Giant. Reaper. Ship. Landed. On. Them.
john william wrote...
Bioware's morality makes about as much sense here as the whole "destroy the council/save the council" dilemma at the end of ME1. Which is to say none at all. I actually resisted the urge to keep the collector base but I couldn't argue against Illusive Man's cold, hard logic. There's no question that the galactic civilization is better off with the treasure trove of secrets that is the collector base.
Modifié par screwoffreg, 01 février 2010 - 09:45 .
Thrakkesh wrote...
Semantics. A giant previously unknown spaceship busted in and wreaked absolute havoc. It used technology the galaxy hasn't seen before. Pictures exist of the stupid thing. There's needing evidence and there's willful ignorance.
Modifié par Shady314, 01 février 2010 - 09:46 .
Thrakkesh wrote...
Giant. Reaper. Ship. Landed. On. Them.
Marlina wrote...
Fine: Paragon = optimistic, renegade = "better safe than sorry"/realistShadowAldrius wrote...
Except it doesn't. There is logic to both paths, and there's emotion to both paths. (Renegade involves a CRAPLOAD of ego and being incredibly quick to anger.)
Paragon = high risk, high reward. Long-term solutions with initial risks that may or may not pay off. It's the more responsible path.
Renegade = quickest, simplest, most direct solution.
Killing the rachni queen means she's no longer a problem. Sparing her means you have to have faith that she'll make good on her promise. If she does, then... you know, you didn't just commit genocide. If she doesn't, then you'll have to take responsibility for your decision.
One is safer, to be sure, but one is 'right'. One can reap the greater reward. (Saving an extinct species from destruction, a potentially powerful ally in a future war with the reapers, so many benefits if the gamble pays off, and it's not even that huge a gamble.)
Taking the paragon path here means you're not going to have access to questionable technology to battle a foe with. Meaning you'll have to look elsewhere for answers. It also means you're not trusting the guy who unleashed reaper technology on a human colony in ME1.
I seriously don't understand why anyone would trust the Illusive Man over the Rachni Queen, though. The Rachni queen is an innocent alien in a jar who has yet to actually DO anything, and she talks. (She was born in an exo-geni lab) And who heavily implies that the Rachni War was the result of Reaper indoctrination. Over a man who... unleashed reaper technology on a colony, refuses to work with established government powers and is extremely xenophobic.
Just saying.
I'd argue the second path is the more logical.
Modifié par Shady314, 01 février 2010 - 09:49 .
john william wrote...
Harkmagic wrote...
The Reapers have won time and again because Galactic civilization has developed around the Technology the Reapers left behind. If you base you war plan around that Collector Station, you are playing right into the hands of the Reapers because they know exactly what you will be throwing at them when they arrive.
This is tech that the Reapers didn't intend to leave to others and thus would be useful against them.
Lukertin wrote...
They made certain breakthroughs? Really? How is injecting color into people's eyes in an attempt to change iris color a medical breakthrough when those people all ended up blind? Or injecting salt water into a human while you drain out his blood to see what happens? I'm really curious as to what kind of scientific understanding these experiments have brought to light, and how we all have benefited.At the end of WW2 it came to light that both the Germans and the Japanese conducted horrifying experiments on live human subjects and made certain breakthroughs because of it. Would the allies have performed those same experiments. Of course not. Did the allies throw their research away? Hell freaking naw!
I thought that was obvious. You're giving Reaper technology to CERBERUS. Frickin' Cerberus. The Illusive Man even says from his own lips that, had he gotten the technology, it would have been used to secure human domination. He makes no secret of that. Where's the confusion here?Lone_Wolf_511 wrote...
john william wrote...
Bioware's morality makes about as much sense here as the whole "destroy the council/save the council" dilemma at the end of ME1. Which is to say none at all. I actually resisted the urge to keep the collector base but I couldn't argue against Illusive Man's cold, hard logic. There's no question that the galactic civilization is better off with the treasure trove of secrets that is the collector base.
Galatic civilization or Cerberus? That's were the renegade bit comes in, you're giving the most advanced piece of technology in the galaxy to biggoted terrorists who perform inhumane experiments. That's obviously for the good of everyone isn't it....
john william wrote...
Bioware's morality makes about as much sense here as the whole "destroy the council/save the council" dilemma at the end of ME1. Which is to say none at all. I actually resisted the urge to keep the collector base but I couldn't argue against Illusive Man's cold, hard logic. There's no question that the galactic civilization is better off with the treasure trove of secrets that is the collector base.
At the end of WW2 it came to light that both the Germans and the Japanese conducted horrifying experiments on live human subjects and made certain breakthroughs because of it. Would the allies have performed those same experiments. Of course not. Did the allies throw their research away? Hell freaking naw!
Marlina wrote...
This just goes back to Paragon = emotion and renegade = logic.
Marlina is like the strangest pessimist here. What kind of communist sympathizer unilaterally considers altruism illogical?Pauravi wrote...
Marlina wrote...
This just goes back to Paragon = emotion and renegade = logic.
Really don't think that is the case, not at all. There are a number of Paragon options that propose perfectly logical solutions to problems, and some Renegade options that are more callous than logical.
I think it would be far more accurate to characterize them as a as a broad set of ideals:
Paragon encompasses compassion for the individual, uncompromising ethical values, and unity between species.
Renegade tends towards a "means justify the ends" attitude, someone who is more efficient than compassionate, and who generally makes choices that favor their own species.
aimlessgun wrote...
A lot of people arguing that reaper technology enslaves/harms people who use it.
I think the debate about this hinges upon whether you look at science in this game realistically, or in a space opera way.
Realistically, you're not going to just pick up this ship and run around using it without knowing what's going on. You're going to study the basic principles behind what is there and build your own, human, devices based off those principles, which are basic universal principles and are in no way intrinsically bound to the reapers.
From the space opera point of view, which I guess if we're going to metagame our decisions and ME is a space opera it would be the most 'correct' view, yeah there are significant risks in keeping the station. But I like the realistic view better, so keeping the station made a lot of sense.
Jonny_Evil wrote...
aimlessgun wrote...
A lot of people arguing that reaper technology enslaves/harms people who use it.
I think the debate about this hinges upon whether you look at science in this game realistically, or in a space opera way.
Realistically, you're not going to just pick up this ship and run around using it without knowing what's going on. You're going to study the basic principles behind what is there and build your own, human, devices based off those principles, which are basic universal principles and are in no way intrinsically bound to the reapers.
From the space opera point of view, which I guess if we're going to metagame our decisions and ME is a space opera it would be the most 'correct' view, yeah there are significant risks in keeping the station. But I like the realistic view better, so keeping the station made a lot of sense.
Reaper technology itself is like a virus, it can easily infect those who study it. Harbinger was directly connected to that station and indoctrination doesn't have to be sudden and spectacular. He could influence everyone who comes on board, whispering in their minds, gently pushing them down the paths he wants them to take, leaving backdoors in every VI or AI that comes through. The research crew on that Reaper knew about the effects of indoctrination and they still fell victim to it within a couple of weeks, if personnel are on that station for years Harbinger could indoctrinate them so subtly they wouldn't even notice until it's too late.
As for studying the basic principles, the Reaper tech is based around manipulating dark energy with Element Zero. They are absolute masters of it, can do things that the Citadel races thought impossible, so how is studying the basic principles of that going to help defeat them? We don't have a billion years to perfect it like they have.
Modifié par adam_grif, 01 février 2010 - 11:03 .
Modifié par LucidStrike, 01 février 2010 - 11:08 .
adam_grif wrote...
Some of you people are crazy. There's nothing evil about Reaper tech. Technology is morally neutral until you apply it. The only reason anybody in their right mind would ever think about abandoning that technology and blowing the base up is if they knew it would be ok either way because it's a video-game and that Bioware isn't going to screw them over for being a Paragon.
Indoctrination should be easy to avoid considering we've had confirmation that it's not some bizarro psychic thing, but high frequency sound, subliminal crap and so on. Wear some noise cancelling ear phones maybe just? There's nothing magical about sound-waves, and we have the technology to counter-act that ballocks today.
. Don't know how the 'subliminal messages' (Ironic that you're trying to apply some sense of reality to it when, realistically speaking, Subliminal Messages do not--and can not--exist in this way). 
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