582 réponses à ce sujet

[adam_grif]

Thrakkesh wrote...


Except that, in the context of the game, fiddling with Reaper technology, at the very least their ships (and bases, presumeably) has a tendency of subverting people who look at it.

We're discussing things in the context of the internal fiction based on the evidence we're presented.  Typically speaking, most 'technology' doesn't tend to have the lingering presence of the large, promordially evil being left lingering in it long after it's 'death'--nonetheless, the Derelict Reaper still indoctrinates the Scientists stuck inside it.

Also, considering we A). Don't exactly know the frequencies they're using, or if they're using Infrasound/other methods and . Don't know how the 'subliminal messages' (Ironic that you're trying to apply some sense of reality to it when, realistically speaking, Subliminal Messages do not--and can not--exist in this way).  

Put another way: If it was as easy as 'wear headphones' the Scientists ON the ship would have been wearing them.  Didn't seem to work out so well for them. Danger still exists.

What exactly are you saying here? That if you wear vacuum sealed, soundproof suit you'll still get indoctrinated?

How about if you're just using telepresense? They already use extensive telepresense for Eezo mining operations. How could they get indoctrinated if they aren't there? Even if the robots can detect the singlans and infrasound and crap, they can't transmit it back to the operators unless they somehow install infrasound generators and ballocks like that into their control terminals.

How about they just operate without speakers, to be safe?

Problem solved.

They can carve the damn thing into a thousand tiny pieces and anlyize them that way if it would make you feel safer.

The important thing to remember is that they just need to handle it safely, as opposed to completely abandoning it for being 'too dangerous'.

[Jonny_Evil]

aimlessgun wrote...


Right, we don't have a billion years and we shouldn't need a billion years because we're looking at existing technology to teach us how it works.

So? They have mastered the technology altogether. The central premise of the universe is that mass effect technology is the playground of the Reapers. They want us to use it and expertise with it is obviously no defence against them, look at the Protheans and the species which built the continent cracking mass driver as examples. All the weapon and other tech on that base is also merely Prothean in design, the only actual Reaper tech is that used to make the new Reaper.

Indoctrination is a tricky thing, but looking at it as some sort of uncounterable boogeyman, like magic, is the space opera view. It works somehow. We can figure out how. Safety measures can be put in place, rotations, protocol, psychiatric review boards. You could disassemble the entire station robotically from light years away for god's sakes.  Figuring out how indoctrination works could be priority 1. How is the signal transmitted and recieved, where is the source, what are the exact physical effects on the braid etc. If you treat indoctrination like some supermagic, then sure I guess you can't figure that stuff out and everyone is screwed. And you could easily argue that the writers of ME are writing a space opera and do treat indoctrination like magic.

There's nothing uncounterable about it, if it can be studied. The Reaper corpse might have been invaluable for that if it hadn't been destroyed, but without an actual Reaper you can't study it or do more than theorise. The Codex entry indicates that it can be extremely subtle if done slowly, teams researching the station might never know if they're being indoctrinated or not no matter how careful they are. Robotic probes might be even more at risk, given that an AI had trouble at times against Harbinger, and could be easily subverted to leave any traps active in the disassemble wreckage. Again the Reapers are masters of this and have been doing it for millions of years. Playing them at their own game would be like playing chess against a grand master, you might think you're ahead for most of the match, but at the end you'd realise that he's been laying down some complex 20 moves ahead strategy and just checkmated you out of nowhere.

Taking that kind of risk for already-failed Prothean tech and *maybe* insights into how Reapers are born if the tech involved wasn't destroyed in the fight or self-destructs, just isn't worth it.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

LucidStrike wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Marlina wrote...

This just goes back to Paragon = emotion and renegade = logic.

Really don't think that is the case, not at all.  There are a number of Paragon options that propose perfectly logical solutions to problems, and some Renegade options that are more callous than logical.
I think it would be far more accurate to characterize them as a as a broad set of ideals:

Paragon encompasses compassion for the individual, uncompromising ethical values, and unity between species.
Renegade tends towards a "means justify the ends" attitude, someone who is more efficient than compassionate, and who generally makes choices that favor their own species.

Marlina is like the strangest pessimist here. What kind of communist sympathizer unilaterally considers altruism illogical?

Besides, ever heard of enlightened self-interest?

There is nothing wrong with an Ayn Rand approach, but laissez-faire from a morality standpoint didn't work too well in ME universe.

[Thrakkesh]

Again, in the context of 'There's safe ways to do'--if those were safe ways, why didn't Cerberus do them? Are we certain it works entirely on that principle? Are we really discussing reality in a world where people can manipulate magic-matter in order to do Teleknesis? Reaper tech indoctrinates, and has a habit of doing it to pretty much anyone who's on a ship too long. So either we assume you're the smartest man in the Mass Effect universe and the ONLY one who thought of such a basic countermeasure as 'wear headphones', or we assume it's a little more nuanced then that.

[aimlessgun]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...


Right, we don't have a billion years and we shouldn't need a billion years because we're looking at existing technology to teach us how it works.

So? They have mastered the technology altogether. The central premise of the universe is that mass effect technology is the playground of the Reapers. They want us to use it and expertise with it is obviously no defence against them, look at the Protheans and the species which built the continent cracking mass driver as examples. All the weapon and other tech on that base is also merely Prothean in design, the only actual Reaper tech is that used to make the new Reaper.

Indoctrination is a tricky thing, but looking at it as some sort of uncounterable boogeyman, like magic, is the space opera view. It works somehow. We can figure out how. Safety measures can be put in place, rotations, protocol, psychiatric review boards. You could disassemble the entire station robotically from light years away for god's sakes.  Figuring out how indoctrination works could be priority 1. How is the signal transmitted and recieved, where is the source, what are the exact physical effects on the braid etc. If you treat indoctrination like some supermagic, then sure I guess you can't figure that stuff out and everyone is screwed. And you could easily argue that the writers of ME are writing a space opera and do treat indoctrination like magic.

There's nothing uncounterable about it, if it can be studied. The Reaper corpse might have been invaluable for that if it hadn't been destroyed, but without an actual Reaper you can't study it or do more than theorise. The Codex entry indicates that it can be extremely subtle if done slowly, teams researching the station might never know if they're being indoctrinated or not no matter how careful they are. Robotic probes might be even more at risk, given that an AI had trouble at times against Harbinger, and could be easily subverted to leave any traps active in the disassemble wreckage. Again the Reapers are masters of this and have been doing it for millions of years. Playing them at their own game would be like playing chess against a grand master, you might think you're ahead for most of the match, but at the end you'd realise that he's been laying down some complex 20 moves ahead strategy and just checkmated you out of nowhere.

Taking that kind of risk for already-failed Prothean tech and *maybe* insights into how Reapers are born if the tech involved wasn't destroyed in the fight or self-destructs, just isn't worth it.

I have a problem with this 'playing their own game' idea. Figuring out how the universe works and using that to your advantage shouldn't be classified as playing the Reaper's game. Their tech exploits the way the universe functions, and my understanding those processes and harnessing them we can create our own powerful devices. Sure the Protheans didn't survive but it's not like building superweapons won't improve our odds.

I think the idea of them being 20 moves ahead is interesting but ultimately a little ridiculous. So they planned for you to succeed on the suicide mission and not be a paragon and steal their tech? So many things had to go right for you to succeed that I don't really buy that theory.

[Jonny_Evil]

adam_grif wrote...

Thrakkesh wrote...


Except that, in the context of the game, fiddling with Reaper technology, at the very least their ships (and bases, presumeably) has a tendency of subverting people who look at it.

We're discussing things in the context of the internal fiction based on the evidence we're presented.  Typically speaking, most 'technology' doesn't tend to have the lingering presence of the large, promordially evil being left lingering in it long after it's 'death'--nonetheless, the Derelict Reaper still indoctrinates the Scientists stuck inside it.

Also, considering we A). Don't exactly know the frequencies they're using, or if they're using Infrasound/other methods and . Don't know how the 'subliminal messages' (Ironic that you're trying to apply some sense of reality to it when, realistically speaking, Subliminal Messages do not--and can not--exist in this way).  

Put another way: If it was as easy as 'wear headphones' the Scientists ON the ship would have been wearing them.  Didn't seem to work out so well for them. Danger still exists.

What exactly are you saying here? That if you wear vacuum sealed, soundproof suit you'll still get indoctrinated?

How about if you're just using telepresense? They already use extensive telepresense for Eezo mining operations. How could they get indoctrinated if they aren't there? Even if the robots can detect the singlans and infrasound and crap, they can't transmit it back to the operators unless they somehow install infrasound generators and ballocks like that into their control terminals.

How about they just operate without speakers, to be safe?

Problem solved.

They can carve the damn thing into a thousand tiny pieces and anlyize them that way if it would make you feel safer.

The important thing to remember is that they just need to handle it safely, as opposed to completely abandoning it for being 'too dangerous'.

Betting that you can think of a simple solution to indoctrination when hundreds of thousands of entire civilisations have failed to do so before is one hell of a gamble. Saren studied it in detail on Virmire with access to an actual Reaper and still couldn't stop it.

aimlessgun wrote...

I have a problem with this 'playing
their own game' idea. Figuring out how the universe works and using
that to your advantage shouldn't be classified as playing the Reaper's
game. Their tech exploits the way the universe functions, and my
understanding those processes and harnessing them we can create our own
powerful devices. Sure the Protheans didn't survive but it's not like
building superweapons won't improve our odds.

I think the idea
of them being 20 moves ahead is interesting but ultimately a little
ridiculous. So they planned for you to succeed on the suicide mission
and not be a paragon and steal their tech? So many things had to go
right for you to succeed that I don't really buy that theory.

Hundreds of thousands of species have used those principles to varying levels of expertise and still fallen. Trying to beat them with it obviously doesn't work, and the examples scatter blasted planets all over the galaxy. Research would be better spent investigating other possible lines of weapon, shielding and drive tech,

The problem with extremely experienced and cunning chess players is that you literally can't see what they might be up to until they've done it. Has he laid traps on the Collector base? Maybe, maybe not, but the manipulation, indoctrination and destruction of civilisations is the Reaper's chess. Gambling that he hasn't laid contingency plans on the off chance Shepard succeeds is extremely risky.

Modifié par Jonny_Evil, 01 février 2010 - 11:44 .

[aimlessgun]

LucidStrike wrote...

I think there's some confusion over what the decision actually was about. Here it is:

Give highly advanced technology to an uber-nationalist militant organization.

OR

Destroy it.

There was no option to use it for the common good or anything. It was either Cerberus gets it or no one does.

Yeah but that choice sucks, because the absence of the "keep station, don't give it to TIM" is utterly absurd. So I'll talk about a choice that only partially tied up with retarded writing.

[adam_grif]

Thrakkesh wrote...

Again, in the context of 'There's safe ways to do'--if those were safe ways, why didn't Cerberus do them? Are we certain it works entirely on that principle? Are we really discussing reality in a world where people can manipulate magic-matter in order to do Teleknesis? Reaper tech indoctrinates, and has a habit of doing it to pretty much anyone who's on a ship too long. So either we assume you're the smartest man in the Mass Effect universe and the ONLY one who thought of such a basic countermeasure as 'wear headphones', or we assume it's a little more nuanced then that.

Making claims like "Indoctrination always works regardless of countermeasures" is what we call a no-limits fallacy. It's equivlant to somebody in a story making a claim that something is bulletproof, and then taking this to mean that no bullets could ever penetrate it, regardless of caliber, mass, velocity or design (i.e. Robocop). Making use of no-limits fallacies in your story (examples like "Adamanitum is totally indestructible") is a sign of lazy storytelling.

Either indoctrination is a real process that happens through mediums of communication, (then these modes of communication can be jammed, stopped or otherwise invalidated) or it's magic. If it's using sound-waves, then that's completely trivial to prevent. But no-matter what the process is, by blocking all possible means of communication, you can't possible become indoctrinated. Sealing you up in a hard-suit that physically blocks sound from getting in, and then further lining it with noise cancelling tech (it intercepts the sound-wave, then outputs a soundwave that is its exact opposite, neutralizing the sound-wave. This is used in real life), none of this "subliminal messaging" or "infrasound" or whatever magical sound-wave or radio-wave that does it can get in.

If it's magic, then the whole process is an absurd author fiat, and I'd be ashamed to call myself a Mass Effect fan.

[adam_grif]

Jonny_Evil wrote...


Betting that you can think of a simple solution to indoctrination when hundreds of thousands of entire civilisations have failed to do so before is one hell of a gamble. Saren studied it in detail on Virmire with access to an actual Reaper and still couldn't stop it.

- The vast majority of all civilizations had no idea about it.

- Saren actually had to spend time aboard the ship, and didn't find out about it until he was already thoroughly indoctrinated. His research was focussed on finding ways to un-do it, or prevent it from happening. But it's too late to close the gate when the horse has already bolted, yes? What's more likely, that indoctrination is magic, or that Saren's indoctrination was actively sabotaging his efforts to finding ways to undo or prevent indoctrination?

Modifié par adam_grif, 01 février 2010 - 11:46 .

[aimlessgun]

adam_grif wrote...

If it's magic, then the whole process is an absurd author fiat, and I'd be ashamed to call myself a Mass Effect fan.

Well....it's not like there isn't absurd author fiat elsewhere in ME2....

[Thrakkesh]

Again, it's all well and good, but if it was that simple: Why the hell didn't some very obvious SECRET AGENT SCIENTISTS use what is basically common sense?



Not understanding completely how it works (and thus not knowing how to completely counter it) is different from 'it doesn't work'. We don't know what mediums it uses, how many, what kinds. It's entirely plausible it uses a combination and multiple, possibly even hundreds of vectors: What if a species doesn't rely on sensory hearing at all? What if, like some insects, they rely on vibrational? Scent? See in Ultraviolet? Hear only low frequencies--only high frequencies? Is it that hard to believe there are other methods? Sure it can be 'jammed'--if you know exactly what to jam and know exactly what to do. It's fallacy to assume the characters in the universe understand enough to just go "OH, countermeasure"--and it's internally inconsistent. Knowing what the characters know, the Scientists could not 'countermeasure' indoctrination. It's safe to assume that at this point in the game, we don't know.



Basically, if your ideas work, you'd have to provide evidence in the context of the universe that Indoctrination can be wholly mitigated, in the actual body of work of the story. Again, I find it intensely ironic that this would bother you when a great deal of Mass Effect tech and Science is pretty much a fancy way of saying 'Magic' anyway.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

adam_grif wrote...

Thrakkesh wrote...

Again, in the context of 'There's safe ways to do'--if those were safe ways, why didn't Cerberus do them? Are we certain it works entirely on that principle? Are we really discussing reality in a world where people can manipulate magic-matter in order to do Teleknesis? Reaper tech indoctrinates, and has a habit of doing it to pretty much anyone who's on a ship too long. So either we assume you're the smartest man in the Mass Effect universe and the ONLY one who thought of such a basic countermeasure as 'wear headphones', or we assume it's a little more nuanced then that.

Making claims like "Indoctrination always works regardless of countermeasures" is what we call a no-limits fallacy. It's equivlant to somebody in a story making a claim that something is bulletproof, and then taking this to mean that no bullets could ever penetrate it, regardless of caliber, mass, velocity or design (i.e. Robocop). Making use of no-limits fallacies in your story (examples like "Adamanitum is totally indestructible") is a sign of lazy storytelling.

Either indoctrination is a real process that happens through mediums of communication, (then these modes of communication can be jammed, stopped or otherwise invalidated) or it's magic. If it's using sound-waves, then that's completely trivial to prevent. But no-matter what the process is, by blocking all possible means of communication, you can't possible become indoctrinated. Sealing you up in a hard-suit that physically blocks sound from getting in, and then further lining it with noise cancelling tech (it intercepts the sound-wave, then outputs a soundwave that is its exact opposite, neutralizing the sound-wave. This is used in real life), none of this "subliminal messaging" or "infrasound" or whatever magical sound-wave or radio-wave that does it can get in.

If it's magic, then the whole process is an absurd author fiat, and I'd be ashamed to call myself a Mass Effect fan.

Of all the things to hate about "being author fiat", you focus on indoctrination and not FTL. Roflmao.

[Jonny_Evil]

adam_grif wrote...

Jonny_Evil wrote...


Betting that you can think of a simple solution to indoctrination when hundreds of thousands of entire civilisations have failed to do so before is one hell of a gamble. Saren studied it in detail on Virmire with access to an actual Reaper and still couldn't stop it.

- The vast majority of all civilizations had no idea about it.

- Saren actually had to spend time aboard the ship, and didn't find out about it until he was already thoroughly indoctrinated. His research was focussed on finding ways to un-do it, or prevent it from happening. But it's too late to close the gate when the horse has already bolted, yes? What's more likely, that indoctrination is magic, or that Saren's indoctrination was actively sabotaging his efforts to finding ways to undo or prevent indoctrination?

I think it's more likely that the process involves something extremely exotic like the Asari psychic ability or some as yet unknown property of dark energy. It's not going to be sound or radio waves.

Other civilisations did know about it. Vigil on Ilos tells you that the Reapers would selectively indoctrinate refugees fleeing their advance in order for them to betray hideouts. This went on for centuries and the Protheans never managed to stop it, despite their technological advancement.

[aimlessgun]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Of all the things to hate about "being author fiat", you focus on indoctrination and not FTL. Roflmao.

Well there is the idea that "you only get one". Mass Effect generally does a good job basing everything around their one magical thing, the mass effect and ezo. And anyways you get a free pass for FTL in sci-fi regardless.

Other civilisations did know about it. Vigil on Ilos tells you that the
Reapers would selectively indoctrinate refugees fleeing their advance
in order for them to betray hideouts. This went on for centuries and
the Protheans never managed to stop it, despite their technological
advancement.

Intersting point. I think this evidence move indoctrination firmly into the 'magic' zone. I don't like it, but I guess it is what is it.

[kappukiino]

RAZZberree wrote...
Your WW2 example was a good one to use, ethically, it's the bad choice because of the harm done to the experiments, viewed as monstrous and completely horrible. Of course, the results led to such great advancements, but at what cost?

I chose the paragon just because, morally and ethically, I'm against that, but I'm not an idiot. Keeping the base would have amazing advantages but...it cost too many lives of innocent people and my crew was killed there, in a way, what the hell was I fighting for? It's one of those kind of moments...for me. :| It was a really tough decision in the end for me though, because I did want to have an edge on the reapers...But...it just doesn't feel right.

But I totally see where your coming from on the issue.

But then again those lives were already lost..
obviously i wouldnt kill my own crew to keep the base but if those things have ALREADY BEEN DONE, what difference would it make if i'd let my people get the hold of amazing technology?

like in WW2, allies wouldnt've have made those experiments, why would they throw away the results since the harm had already been done, lives have been lost but the results were there, for them to see..

[LucidStrike]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Marlina wrote...

This just goes back to Paragon = emotion and renegade = logic.

Really don't think that is the case, not at all.  There are a number of Paragon options that propose perfectly logical solutions to problems, and some Renegade options that are more callous than logical.
I think it would be far more accurate to characterize them as a as a broad set of ideals:

Paragon encompasses compassion for the individual, uncompromising ethical values, and unity between species.
Renegade tends towards a "means justify the ends" attitude, someone who is more efficient than compassionate, and who generally makes choices that favor their own species.

Marlina is like the strangest pessimist here. What kind of communist sympathizer unilaterally considers altruism illogical?

Besides, ever heard of enlightened self-interest?

There is nothing wrong with an Ayn Rand approach, but laissez-faire from a morality standpoint didn't work too well in ME universe.

Pfft. Ayn Rand. Screw that.

It's just strange to me that an apparent die hard pessimist finds communism appealing. Intriguing.

[adam_grif]

Again, it's all well and good, but if it was that simple: Why the hell
didn't some very obvious SECRET AGENT SCIENTISTS use what is basically
common sense?

The same reason why Qui Gon Jin and Queen Amidala didn't just pay a smuggler all the money they had now and the rest when they got to Coruscant, or Jedi Mind Tricked some other dealer into swapping out republic credits for a currency watto would take.

They're stupid.

Also, the reaper was destroyed and they had no way of knowing that the indoctrination "field" would still be up and running.

If you're going to say "WHY DIDNT THEY JUST DO IT IF ITS SO SIMPLE" to any point I raise, then there can never be a plot hole or any proposed solution to any problems, because you can always make that claim, no-matter what.

Not understanding completely how it works (and thus not knowing how to
completely counter it) is different from 'it doesn't work'. We don't
know what mediums it uses, how many, what kinds. It's entirely
plausible it uses a combination and multiple, possibly even hundreds of
vectors: What if a species doesn't rely on sensory hearing at all? What
if, like some insects, they rely on vibrational? Scent? See in
Ultraviolet? Hear only low frequencies--only high frequencies? Is it
that hard to believe there are other methods? Sure it can be
'jammed'--if you know exactly what to jam and know exactly what to do.
It's fallacy to assume the characters in the universe understand enough
to just go "OH, countermeasure"--and it's internally inconsistent.
Knowing what the characters know, the Scientists could not
'countermeasure' indoctrination. It's safe to assume that at this point
in the game, we don't know.

So? Use science to find out how it works!

But how can they possibly indoctrinate people who are just using remote terminals to operate robotic avatars on the ship? Indoctrination works on organics. If you want to say something like "WELL A MAGICAL COMPTUER VIRUS HACKS IT" (which would be easy to prevent anyway unless the system was designed by a total moron) or something, then you can just shield the robot to all EM and have it recieve instructions via Quantum Entangelment comms (which operates with no intervening medium). A small, table sized one can do real time video and audio communications already.

P.S. We don't know if collector ships have the indoctrination stuff. They didn't have a lot of Reaper tech on there.

Basically, if your ideas work, you'd have to provide evidence in the
context of the universe that Indoctrination can be wholly mitigated, in
the actual body of work of the story. Again, I find it intensely ironic
that this would bother you when a great deal of Mass Effect tech and
Science is pretty much a fancy way of saying 'Magic' anyway.

You'd also need evidence to suggest that the indoctrination works outside of the methods outlined in the codex. Wearing noise cancelling headphones would work just fine as a solution if it's infrasound + subliminal messaging as claimed by the codex.

You're asking me to prove that a solution woudl work in-unvierse, which is totally imposible. But you yourself are making unverifiable claims too about its capabilities.

Of all the things to hate about "being author fiat", you focus on indoctrination and not FTL. Roflmao.

The FTL is explained with in-universe science. As is indoctrination. The issue isn't that indoctrination is unrealistic, and you'd be a fool to think that's what I was claiming.

I think it's more likely that the process involves something extremely
exotic like the Asari psychic ability or some as yet unknown property
of dark energy. It's not going to be sound or radio waves.

Codex out and out says it's sound waves. You'd need to provide evidence to suggest that it was Asari magical psychic ability.

Other civilisations did know about it. Vigil on Ilos tells you that
the Reapers would selectively indoctrinate refugees fleeing their
advance in order for them to betray hideouts. This went on for
centuries and the Protheans never managed to stop it, despite their
technological advancement.

Yeah, indoctrinated them after they were already captured by the reapers. It's kind of hard to deploy an indoctrination countermeasure when you're a prisoner on a reaper, is it not? It does NOT say that they would indoctrinate fleeing people, it said that refugees that they would take in would secretly be indoctrinated.

This implies that when the reaper took worlds or ships or colonies it would indoctrinate the people and then let them go to act as sleepr agents. It doesn't support your case at all.

Modifié par adam_grif, 01 février 2010 - 12:10 .

[Jonny_Evil]

Then we're just going to have to leave it as magic. Sovereign indoctrinated the Rachni queens in their underground lairs from space, that's not going to happen if it's based on sound waves.



I concede your point on the protheans though, that wasn't thought out well on my part.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

LucidStrike wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Marlina wrote...

This just goes back to Paragon = emotion and renegade = logic.

Really don't think that is the case, not at all.  There are a number of Paragon options that propose perfectly logical solutions to problems, and some Renegade options that are more callous than logical.
I think it would be far more accurate to characterize them as a as a broad set of ideals:

Paragon encompasses compassion for the individual, uncompromising ethical values, and unity between species.
Renegade tends towards a "means justify the ends" attitude, someone who is more efficient than compassionate, and who generally makes choices that favor their own species.

Marlina is like the strangest pessimist here. What kind of communist sympathizer unilaterally considers altruism illogical?

Besides, ever heard of enlightened self-interest?

There is nothing wrong with an Ayn Rand approach, but laissez-faire from a morality standpoint didn't work too well in ME universe.

Pfft. Ayn Rand. Screw that.

It's just strange to me that an apparent die hard pessimist finds communism appealing. Intriguing.

Haha, fair enough.

[Thrakkesh]

So let me get this straight: It's bad writing when we assume that something as simple as noise-cancelling headphones/random jamming/Stand back, I'm going to try SCIENCE! isn't going to just magically work and not stumble badly enough to cause all the probelms discussed, but it's okay writing to assume that a bunch of secret-agents Scientists from the same boogeymen who raised you from the dead (oh, by the way? That? TOTALLY author fiat), didn't, knowing the information in the Codex that we're apparently all just supposed to assume you knew, didn't think to Jam the obvious Indoctrination symbol?



...And that's... acceptable writing?



You seem to enjoy using terms like 'Logical Fallacy' and 'Author Fiat'. Are you aware of Cognitive Dissonance, by chance?

[adam_grif]

They probably just sent some reaper tech down to the queen as an offering of high tech gear.



When some folks dug up the reaper spikes, they indoctrinated them after all. They don't have to use a reaper ship after all.



Also, the rachni indoctrination is speculation, not confirmed.

[Thrakkesh]

adam_grif wrote...

They probably just sent some reaper tech down to the queen as an offering of high tech gear.

When some folks dug up the reaper spikes, they indoctrinated them after all. They don't have to use a reaper ship after all.

Also, the rachni indoctrination is speculation, not confirmed.

AGAIN, why is it not okay for ME to make unverifiable claims but totally okay for you to do it? 

[adam_grif]

Thrakkesh wrote...

So let me get this straight: It's bad writing when we assume that something as simple as noise-cancelling headphones/random jamming/Stand back, I'm going to try SCIENCE! isn't going to just magically work and not stumble badly enough to cause all the probelms discussed,

It's a proposed sollution. It doesn't matter whether that one, specifically works, the point is that there is going to be a sollution. What's the problem with the telepresense idea? We knwo for a fact they have telepresense. Noise cancellation will work so long as the information we have been given in the codex is accurate. If you're going to just say the codex is lying, you'll need evidence to support that. The codex is canon.

but it's okay writing to assume that a bunch of secret-agents Scientists from the same boogeymen who raised you from the dead (oh, by the way? That? TOTALLY author fiat), didn't, knowing the information in the Codex that we're apparently all just supposed to assume you knew, didn't think to Jam the obvious Indoctrination symbol?

No, it's ok to assume that characters are dullards for not seeing an obvious solution. It wouldn't be the first time. Why aren't militaries using missiles again, since it's trivially easy to get object (as small as the Kodiak shuttle) to go FTL, avoiding light-speed Gardian point defense using LADAR for detection (also limited by light speed) is trivially easy. Why don't they just not apply the mass-increasing fields to Disruptor torpedos until it's about to strike the kinetic barriers instead of applying it constantly and getting sluggish acceleration?

The answer to both questions: There is no explanation. 

It's not as simple as you're making it out to be. The reaper was dead. They had no idea anything was still functioning - they didn't know it was going to indoctrinate them. Is that not a more likely explanation than "it's magic and you can't stop it"?

Please tell me where I'm going astray here.

You seem to enjoy using terms like 'Logical Fallacy' and 'Author Fiat'. Are you aware of Cognitive Dissonance, by chance?

My science major is Psychology. I'm very aware of what Cognitive dissonance is.

[ComTrav]

I didn't think this choice was that interesting, really. I just saw it as a whole horribly evil but very useful object dilemma, which is pretty much a staple.It's like asking if you want an amazing bazooka that uses dead babies for fuel.

[adam_grif]

Thrakkesh wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

They probably just sent some reaper tech down to the queen as an offering of high tech gear.

When some folks dug up the reaper spikes, they indoctrinated them after all. They don't have to use a reaper ship after all.

Also, the rachni indoctrination is speculation, not confirmed.

AGAIN, why is it not okay for ME to make unverifiable claims but totally okay for you to do it? 

1. I wasn't claiming that was what definately happened, I was proposing an alternative to his theory that the reapers indoctrinated the Rachni through hundreds of meters of rock. The reapers can and do indoctrinate people remotely through pieces of their technology capable of doing it.

2. Even if I was claiming that that was definately what happened, there's a very easy to spot difference between what you're doing and what I'm doing. You're making claims that directly contradict canon (i.e. the codex), and I just proposed a universe-consistent explanation.


If this is just going to become a personal attack on me, you can just stop now.