582 réponses à ce sujet

[DemonGunslinger]

Not sure if it's been said before or not but I believe that the reason keeping the base is the Renegade choice is that Renegades do what it takes to win. That base uses lives in order to funnel its main research to create a large weapon/ship of some kind (whatever that thing was). Everything about that place is wrong and while it could potentially offer a huge power boost, at what cost will it take? A Renegade would say to keep it because this is a war that should be won with whatever resources they have available, even if it is Reaper technology.

[Dave of Canada]

I only blew it up to avenge the tens of thousands people killed.

[Thrakkesh]

Relax. It's just part of the discussion: I thought asserting that something could happen was exercising the same thing you claimed I was doing 'Making unverifiable claims'. The suggestion that Reaper Indoctrination could use multiple vectors, some of which are unknown, carries about as much weight as random theories about how Rachni got indoctrinated despite being underground.

But, whatever. Clearly you have your view on it and it won't be changed. Simply put, I think the idea that a pair of noise-cancelling headphones solving everything (and nobody in the galaxy ever thinking this because they're all *that* dumb) is poor writing in and of itself, so I'd rather dismiss it.

No hard feelings though. We're discussing things that take place in an imaginary universe. I promise I don't think any less of you for having a different opinon then me.

Modifié par Thrakkesh, 01 février 2010 - 12:40 .

[Inverness Moon]

Reaper technology isn't magic. The collector base could possibly have information on how indoctrination works and how to prevent it. Obviously if it can build a reaper then it should have schematics for the indoctrination mechanism.

Also, TIM is not stupid, he is not going to have a repeat of the derelict reaper. And also note that the collector base is not a reaper, people are making assumptions about the possibility of indoctrination, and assumptions that TIM doesn't learn from mistakes.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 01 février 2010 - 12:45 .

[Legion6115]

I kept it because then the lives of thousands who were liquified would've been in vain had I not kept the base, same as I did when I kept the genophage cure data. I didn't see it as a Paragon or Renegade choice - I saw it how I would do so if I were in such a situation. That's just me, however.

[hawat333]

Because it's tainted.

In addition to OP, the moral choice in the end of ME1 also made sense.

[Spinnazie]

Nigawatts wrote...

So you would be in favor of the rebels taking over the Death Star instead of destroying it?

You see there are certain things, that upset the balance of power so much, that they should never be allowed into the equation. The Collector Base, no matter who used it, for whatever reason, would bring more harm than good.

What would it teach us? I doubt the Reapers would leave a clue to their weakness on a ship made by a thrall race? We already have weapons stronger than the ship, the Thanix Cannon cut through the Collector Ship like a hot knife through butter. Anything we could gain from it is negligible when you take into account how much we could lose by keeping it.

The thread could of ended here, excelent analogy!

Modifié par Spinnazie, 01 février 2010 - 12:49 .

[adam_grif]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I only blew it up to avenge the tens of thousands people killed.

Although I can undestand why you might have done that, blowing up the reaper fleets with their own tech would be vastly more satisfying revenge.

Relax. It's just part of the discussion: I thought asserting that
something could happen was exercising the same thing you claimed I was
doing 'Making unverifiable claims'. The suggestion that Reaper
Indoctrination could use multiple vectors, some of which are unknown,
carries about as much weight as random theories about how Rachni got
indoctrinated despite being underground.

But surely you can see the difference where your idea is just kind of thrown out there without any real in-universe support (it's not impossible that its using a variety of alternate vectors, but we haven't ever seen or heard about any of them, and the codex didn't say "amongst other methods"), but mine was simply applying the Reapers modus operandi to the situation. Their tech can and does indoctrinate people without the ship actually being there.

The idea that they sent them gifts, that was just a framing device. Whether or not that's true is irrelevant, it could be anything. The core of my proposal was that it didn't have to be done by beaming indoctrination through hunks of rock - which is true. This is important because that's the claim the other person was making - that it had to have been done by sovreign landing on the planet and indoctrinating them down in their lairs by putting out a signal.

But, whatever. Clearly you have your view on it and it won't be
changed. Simply put, I think the idea that a pair of noise-cancelling
headphones solving everything (and nobody in the galaxy ever thinking
this because they're all *that* dumb) is poor writing in and of itself,
so I'd rather dismiss it.

Lol, the noise cancelling headphones was just an off the cuff comment. If I was making a serious effort at preventing the indoctrination it would be the aforementioned telepresense, which is a far better plan imo. Or at the very least, one of the already-seen hard-suits + the noise cancelling tech and some thicker lining to block out sound waves.

No hard feelings though. We're discussing things that take place in an
imaginary universe. I promise I don't think any less of you for having
a different opinon then me.

No hard feelings indeed. Have a nice day.

<3

Modifié par adam_grif, 01 février 2010 - 12:50 .

[Inverness Moon]

Spin****e wrote...

Nigawatts wrote...

So you would be in favor of the rebels taking over the Death Star instead of destroying it?

You see there are certain things, that upset the balance of power so much, that they should never be allowed into the equation. The Collector Base, no matter who used it, for whatever reason, would bring more harm than good.

What would it teach us? I doubt the Reapers would leave a clue to their weakness on a ship made by a thrall race? We already have weapons stronger than the ship, the Thanix Cannon cut through the Collector Ship like a hot knife through butter. Anything we could gain from it is negligible when you take into account how much we could lose by keeping it.

The thread could of ended here, excelent analogy!

Maybe if the Star Wars galaxy was going to be invaded by a fleet of hundreds of death stars then yes, I would want them to take it over instead of destroying it.

[AlphaJarmel]

Really keeping the base is the smart thing to do.  I would hand it over the Council with heavy restrictions but let them have a go at it.  The base has to have tons and tons of Reaper data and information is power.  Blowing it up because you as an individual have a moral problem with it, is pretty stupid.

^Yea that's pretty accurate.

Modifié par AlphaJarmel, 01 février 2010 - 12:54 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

You can't save humanity if you lose it in the process of trying to save it. I blew it up.

[aimlessgun]

Spin****e wrote...

Nigawatts wrote...

So you would be in favor of the rebels taking over the Death Star instead of destroying it?

You see there are certain things, that upset the balance of power so much, that they should never be allowed into the equation. The Collector Base, no matter who used it, for whatever reason, would bring more harm than good.

What would it teach us? I doubt the Reapers would leave a clue to their weakness on a ship made by a thrall race? We already have weapons stronger than the ship, the Thanix Cannon cut through the Collector Ship like a hot knife through butter. Anything we could gain from it is negligible when you take into account how much we could lose by keeping it.

The thread could of ended here, excelent analogy!

Eh...in this situation, you keep the Death Star.

The Rebels don't have a hyperadvanced superrace bearing down on their galaxy intending to destroy and enslave all sapient life. In the Star Wars universe a planet killing weapon has no upside. In the ME universe, it has LOTS of upside, because if we fail all our planets will be killed anways.

I just don't buy nebelous claims of "would do more harm than good". That's just opinion, and ultimately up the writers and not something we can even come close to discerning given the information we have.

[AlphaJarmel]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

You can't save humanity if you lose it in the process of trying to save it. I blew it up.

If by humanity you mean self preservation then you made the right call.

[adam_grif]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

You can't save humanity if you lose it in the process of trying to save it. I blew it up.

Are you telling me that using collector or reaper tech makes you not human? You realize that all mass effect technology is reaper tech don't you?

[Dendory]

I'm full renegade and destroyed it. Mainly because renegade for me doesn't mean being TIM's lackey, plus most of my crew like Tali and Jack wanted it destroyed and I just can't refuse Tali...

[aimlessgun]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

You can't save humanity if you lose it in the process of trying to save it. I blew it up.

Have we lost our humanity by using the same principles the leveled Hiroshima to provide nuclear power?

We study tech. We figure out some base principles of how the universe works, and those principles are morally neutral by definition. Like splitting atoms to release energy.

[DesetFox1943]

I'm not getting why everyone is blaming 'TIM' For all the Cerberus experiments. EDI Tells you that Cerberus is composed of many cell operations and one cell operative can not tell who another operative from another cell is. So in theory you could have people working side by side both working for Cerberus but not knowing they work for the same. So in theory couldn't 'TIM' NOT know about all the things Cerberus does.

'

[lltoon]

Well, the council refused to believe that the Reapers exist and refuse to do anything about it. Keeping the base intact and coming back later to show them will be the biggest undeniable piece of evidence that the Reapers exist. The council races will have to act.

[aimlessgun]

lltoon wrote...

Well, the council refused to believe that the Reapers exist and refuse to do anything about it. Keeping the base intact and coming back later to show them will be the biggest undeniable piece of evidence that the Reapers exist. The council races will have to act.

Except, in one of the worst cases of railroading the whole game, they write it so you can't tell the council about the the base. Preeeeettyyy terrible.

[Reiisha]

aimlessgun wrote...

lltoon wrote...

Well, the council refused to believe that the Reapers exist and refuse to do anything about it. Keeping the base intact and coming back later to show them will be the biggest undeniable piece of evidence that the Reapers exist. The council races will have to act.

Except, in one of the worst cases of railroading the whole game, they write it so you can't tell the council about the the base. Preeeeettyyy terrible.

1) Cerberus would likely be able to spread information that the Omega 4 relay is still too dangerous to go through. That, and given TIM's knowledge of the mission he'd be the first to know about and secure the station. His priority is humanity and he'll die before he gives it to the council.

2) One thing that bothers me about the renegade option is that if you 'save' the station - Only the organic collector materials will be destroyed. In the final scene you get a clear view of who is controlling the collectors - Harbinger. It stands to reason that he may be able to keep the connection to the station even though the collectors are gone, and exert indoctrination through that.

3) The IFF, the collector trap and the dangers of unknown technology vastly superior to your own. If anyone in the present day Earth would get their hands on the tech to build a weapon of mass destruction from 1000 years in the future... What do you think would happen? It's simply too dangerous. No race or collection of races is prepared to handle it, they can't be, no matter how much they think they are ready. Absolute power corrupts absolutely - TIM is the perfect example.

And, as has been said before....

4) The entire Reaper strategy of 'conquering the universe' relies on the organic races using their technology. The mass relays, the citadel - They already have significant pieces of Reaper technology, and all it did was make them completely defenseless and utterly predictable. I think that keeping the station around would be even more dangerous.

5) Lastly... Destroying the station is an act that the Reapers probably would not have been able to predict, nor able to plan for. They don't know why the destroyed the station. Do the organics have a superior weapon against them already? Did they know the station might have been used against them? In any case, if the defeat of Sovereign wasn't a big surprise for them already, taking out their backup plan completely rather than keeping parts of it around makes the organics very hard to predict. The Protheans paved the way for the current generation of organics to survive beyond the Reaper invasion, and maybe even defeat them, exactly because they did what the Reapers didn't expect them to do.

[aimlessgun]

Reiisha wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

lltoon wrote...

Well, the council refused to believe that the Reapers exist and refuse to do anything about it. Keeping the base intact and coming back later to show them will be the biggest undeniable piece of evidence that the Reapers exist. The council races will have to act.

Except, in one of the worst cases of railroading the whole game, they write it so you can't tell the council about the the base. Preeeeettyyy terrible.

1) Cerberus would likely be able to spread information that the Omega 4 relay is still too dangerous to go through. That, and given TIM's knowledge of the mission he'd be the first to know about and secure the station. His priority is humanity and he'll die before he gives it to the council.

He's going to fight the Alliance/council military openly for it? Really? He's powerful, but corporation/paramilitary vs. actual military in space warfare...shouldn't go so well for him.

2) One thing that bothers me about the renegade option is that if you 'save' the station - Only the organic collector materials will be destroyed. In the final scene you get a clear view of who is controlling the collectors - Harbinger. It stands to reason that he may be able to keep the connection to the station even though the collectors are gone, and exert indoctrination through that.

3) The IFF, the collector trap and the dangers of unknown technology vastly superior to your own. If anyone in the present day Earth would get their hands on the tech to build a weapon of mass destruction from 1000 years in the future... What do you think would happen? It's simply too dangerous. No race or collection of races is prepared to handle it, they can't be, no matter how much they think they are ready. Absolute power corrupts absolutely - TIM is the perfect example.

And, as has been said before....

4) The entire Reaper strategy of 'conquering the universe' relies on the organic races using their technology. The mass relays, the citadel - They already have significant pieces of Reaper technology, and all it did was make them completely defenseless and utterly predictable. I think that keeping the station around would be even more dangerous.

5) Lastly... Destroying the station is an act that the Reapers probably would not have been able to predict, nor able to plan for. They don't know why the destroyed the station. Do the organics have a superior weapon against them already? Did they know the station might have been used against them? In any case, if the defeat of Sovereign wasn't a big surprise for them already, taking out their backup plan completely rather than keeping parts of it around makes the organics very hard to predict. The Protheans paved the way for the current generation of organics to survive beyond the Reaper invasion, and maybe even defeat them, exactly because they did what the Reapers didn't expect them to do.

This argument has been going back and forth for a few pages, yeah. I will say though, sure they don't plan for you to destroy the station...and they don't plan for you to keep it either. I would find it very hard to accept that it was somehow their intention to perfectly orchestrate a near success on this 'suicide mission' so you could capture their plan B.

As for developing along lines they decide, science is not reaper specific or morally biased or anything of that nature. We develop along lines of their choosing because of the convenience of the citadel and the relays, and civilization spreads based on where relays go, and governed from the citadel. I don't think nebulous implications beyond that are particularly necessary.

The universe works in a certain way. Usually you're not going to have multiple ways of achieving something. It's not like we can invent a 'human' way of doing a mass relay jump and not use the 'reaper technology'. We would use the same basic principles the reapers use, and we can theoretically learn those principles by studying reaper technology.

[Thompson family]

Point probably made already: Because Cerberus would be perfectly willing to sacrifice other people to defend humanity. The technology unlocked could include mind control, and definitely includes using sentient beings as raw material. Furthermore, nobody trusts Shepard anyway. There's no chance they'll ever trust him as long as he's working for Cerberus.



Nobody survives unless everybody survives. That's a powerful statement. In an Americanized , loose translation of an old Chinese saying: "Put the Hatfields and the McCoys (two famous American feuding families) in the same boat in the same storm, and they will work together like the right hand and the left.

[Reiisha]

aimlessgun wrote...

Reiisha wrote...

1) Cerberus would likely be able to spread information that the Omega 4 relay is still too dangerous to go through. That, and given TIM's knowledge of the mission he'd be the first to know about and secure the station. His priority is humanity and he'll die before he gives it to the council.

He's going to fight the Alliance/council military openly for it? Really? He's powerful, but corporation/paramilitary vs. actual military in space warfare...shouldn't go so well for him.

Neither the council nor the alliance would risk sending ships through the relay. For all they know, Shepard is still dellusional. If they didn't trust him when a gigantic Reaper attacked them right in their faces, they probably won't trust him when he just tells them that there's a space station beyond a relay which no one has ever survived going through which leads to an area in the galactic core which is supposed to be impossible to survive in. I doubt they would even get someone to check it out, let alone send a fleet to secure the station. By the time they actually do get there for whatever reason, they may be destroyed anyway because they don't have a Cerberus IFF, just like other ships were destroyed because they didn't have a collector IFF.

aimlessgun wrote...

2) One thing that bothers me about the renegade option is that if you 'save' the station - Only the organic collector materials will be destroyed. In the final scene you get a clear view of who is controlling the collectors - Harbinger. It stands to reason that he may be able to keep the connection to the station even though the collectors are gone, and exert indoctrination through that.

3) The IFF, the collector trap and the dangers of unknown technology vastly superior to your own. If anyone in the present day Earth would get their hands on the tech to build a weapon of mass destruction from 1000 years in the future... What do you think would happen? It's simply too dangerous. No race or collection of races is prepared to handle it, they can't be, no matter how much they think they are ready. Absolute power corrupts absolutely - TIM is the perfect example.

And, as has been said before....

4) The entire Reaper strategy of 'conquering the universe' relies on the organic races using their technology. The mass relays, the citadel - They already have significant pieces of Reaper technology, and all it did was make them completely defenseless and utterly predictable. I think that keeping the station around would be even more dangerous.

5) Lastly... Destroying the station is an act that the Reapers probably would not have been able to predict, nor able to plan for. They don't know why the destroyed the station. Do the organics have a superior weapon against them already? Did they know the station might have been used against them? In any case, if the defeat of Sovereign wasn't a big surprise for them already, taking out their backup plan completely rather than keeping parts of it around makes the organics very hard to predict. The Protheans paved the way for the current generation of organics to survive beyond the Reaper invasion, and maybe even defeat them, exactly because they did what the Reapers didn't expect them to do.

This argument has been going back and forth for a few pages, yeah. I will say though, sure they don't plan for you to destroy the station...and they don't plan for you to keep it either. I would find it very hard to accept that it was somehow their intention to perfectly orchestrate a near success on this 'suicide mission' so you could capture their plan B.

As for developing along lines they decide, science is not reaper specific or morally biased or anything of that nature. We develop along lines of their choosing because of the convenience of the citadel and the relays, and civilization spreads based on where relays go, and governed from the citadel. I don't think nebulous implications beyond that are particularly necessary.

The universe works in a certain way. Usually you're not going to have multiple ways of achieving something. It's not like we can invent a 'human' way of doing a mass relay jump and not use the 'reaper technology'. We would use the same basic principles the reapers use, and we can theoretically learn those principles by studying reaper technology.

That ignores my points about the dangers the station still represents. I'd especially worry about the connection Harbinger has with it. I wouldn't put remote indoctrination past the reapers, nor any traps left by the collectors in case someone would try to adapt their tech - Again, take the Reaper IFF as an example which has taken the most advanced ship and the most advanced AI in council space by surprise. A lesser ship, equipment and VI would have no chance against any viral attack.

The decision was difficult, but in the end i think it was way too dangerous to leave the station around. Even if the council found out and took it... It would very probably trigger civil war within the council races over it's control. That's what such things do. Let alone the consequences of Cerberus having it.

Modifié par Reiisha, 01 février 2010 - 02:41 .

[Jonny_Evil]

aimlessgun wrote...

This argument has been going back and forth for a few pages, yeah. I will say though, sure they don't plan for you to destroy the station...and they don't plan for you to keep it either. I would find it very hard to accept that it was somehow their intention to perfectly orchestrate a near success on this 'suicide mission' so you could capture their plan B.

They don't need to specifically plan for it, they just need to acknowledge it's remote possibility. The Keeper signal failed for the first time in countless harvests, and Sovereign had a backup plan. Sovereign was destroyed, and the Reapers had a backup plan. Is it really so far fetched to think Harbinger would have seeded the base with traps, just on the off chance it ever fell into enemy hands?

[RAZZberree]

kappukiino wrote...

RAZZberree wrote...
Your WW2 example was a good one to use, ethically, it's the bad choice because of the harm done to the experiments, viewed as monstrous and completely horrible. Of course, the results led to such great advancements, but at what cost?

I chose the paragon just because, morally and ethically, I'm against that, but I'm not an idiot. Keeping the base would have amazing advantages but...it cost too many lives of innocent people and my crew was killed there, in a way, what the hell was I fighting for? It's one of those kind of moments...for me. :| It was a really tough decision in the end for me though, because I did want to have an edge on the reapers...But...it just doesn't feel right.

But I totally see where your coming from on the issue.

But then again those lives were already lost..
obviously i wouldnt kill my own crew to keep the base but if those things have ALREADY BEEN DONE, what difference would it make if i'd let my people get the hold of amazing technology?

like in WW2, allies wouldnt've have made those experiments, why would they throw away the results since the harm had already been done, lives have been lost but the results were there, for them to see..

I see where your coming from and I do agree, but on a moral issue...No. Handing that baby over to TIM is a huge mistake as I see it. Like so many have mentioned before, he will use it to make a more dominant human presence in the galaxy after the reaper threat. Sure, my crew was already dead, tens of thousands of humans were already dead...but how many more? The temptation was high, believe me, I had thought about keeping the base because I wanted to know if it'd help me get an edge on the reapers, and maybe I would have kept it if I was PERSONALLY going to keep it and have my own team studying it, however, it's made perfectly clear that it's in TIM's possession and he's pretty clear what he wants to do with it.

What's stopping him from creating his own reaper? From what I gathere from the base, a majority of it was for housing millions of organics for one main purpose, to liquify them into genetic paste to create a super hybrid organic/synthetic life form. Sure, maybe he won't make an actual reaper, but what if he tries to mimic something on a small scale. I really dont see Cerberus having an issue kidnapping humans or any other species and seeing what they can do with the tech. It was mentioned several times before that the collectors, before abducting whole human colonies, would make deals to recieve any kind of specimen with any kind of genetic abnormalities, what they did with those subjects are unknown but could be similar to what happened to humans and if such information were to be ever recovered, perhaps it could have great benefits, though, I think as far as TIM is concerned, it wouldn't matter. Securing human dominance is his concern. The advancement of humanity.

The thing I love and hate about science, ethics. It really all comes down to personal feelings, do you go with your head or your gut? Follow your heart or your logic? If you can handle hundreds to thousands of lives potentially being lost for a small chance of producing somewhat helpful (or greatly significant) results, then by all means, keep the base! Mordin may have issues studying it, but he probably wouldn't pass up the chance because of the great advantages that could potentially come from it. 

If you can't take the possible guilt of knowing your using something that was used to kill a large number of your own species to make something that was going to wipe you out. If you can't deal with knowing that thousands of more lives could potentially be on your hands, then by all means, destroy the base.

I destroyed the base, because morally, it just felt right and I would never feel right using it or letting TIM exploit it. After talking to my squad I really felt like I wasn't alone with that, and my choice seemed more significant when Legion voiced his opinion. There are just some things we aren't meant to have.