582 réponses à ce sujet

[Solitas777]

How is the biological races supposed to design counter measures against reaper tech if they don't reverse engineer their weapons to see how they work? There is nothing renegade about this at all. My super paragon saved the base because I seriously thought it was a paragon descision, it seems selfish to me to blow up such a great resources just to tick TIM off...childish and very renegade.

[Quetzle]

Um how is keeping the base the renegade choice? I kept it and got 22 paragon points for it, which didn't make sense to me ingame and even less now that I have read your post saying it's the renegade option.....

[Solitas777]

Vendrin wrote...

I just wish they allowed you to keep the base and turn it over to the council as a nice middle road. Normandy is the only ship with the IFF so you could control who has access.

Exactly. I wanted to share the base with the rest of the council and for all four races to develop and implement the technologies TOGETHER.

[Jonny_Evil]

I wonder how many people who destroyed the base have played Warhammer 40k, and how many who saved it haven't? In 40k the concept of something being inherently too dangerous or corrupting to study is well established. Some things will lead you to destruction or slavery no matter how careful you are or how righteous your intentions, because there are things in the galaxy far more intelligent, cunning and subtle than any man could be.



I get the same vibe from the Reapers, all of their technology is suspect, to be tolerated only when absolutely necessary like the IFF. Simply because they are too advanced, ancient and powerful to ever be underestimated.

[Kudara]

Regarding evaluating the risk of keeping the collector base intact, my decision came down to a simple question that was not based on emotion at all.



Given what I've learned of the Reapers in ME1 and ME2 what countermeasures would I have in place (given that I was a Reaper) to ensure that anything other than a race I controlled stepped foot in my domain.



I'd certainly assume that they might send in robots to do their work for them once they knew indoctrination takes place. I'd have multiple counter-measures in place to take control of those devices and use them to my own ends. Send false data to the organics or ai's in control of them, lure them into thinking they were safe, lure them into thinking they had control, lure them into thinking it was safe to set foot in my domain.



I'd certainly have multiple measures and some control program to evaluate the success or failure of the measures currently being taken. After all I've had millions of years and multiple species to experiment upon to perfect my methods.



My answer was that I'd have 1001 different ways of indoctrination, multiple vectors, multiple methods of attack. A few million years is plenty of time to come up with over a thousand ways, especially when it's your entire focus and reason to exist.



After that it was a simple decision to destroy the base, it was simply too risky to leave in anyone's hands.

[Gill Kaiser]

Samara put it best: "The Illusive Man thinks that he has the wisdom to utilise it; he does not."

No matter how much of a Magnificent Bastard the Illusive Man is, I just don't trust him to outsmart the Reapers by himself. I think any Cerberus personnel attempting to study the Collector Base would quickly find themselves indoctrinated or worse.

Also, even if TIM were able to adapt some of the tech to fight the Reapers, I don't think that's the kind of power that should be given to a ruthless man like TIM. His only goal is to safeguard humanity, at the expense of all other life if need be. If the Collector Base gave him a chance to wipe out the Reapers and all the non-human parts of the Galaxy, he would do it.

My Shepard was working towards being a bit of a Chessmaster himself. He kept the Cerberus data for himself (could possibly be used as a bargaining chip in ME3), and he also had Mordin back up the Genophage cure research data for himself. I like my Shepard holding the cards, for once.

[LucidStrike]

[truth]In absence of the choice to offer the Reaper to the entire galactic community for study and in the context of the Mass Effect universe, the morally sound decision was to destroy the Reaper, rather than provide an ultra-nationalist militant organization with hyper-advanced technology and weaponry.[/truth]

Modifié par LucidStrike, 01 février 2010 - 04:21 .

[i love lamp x3]

one.. because it's effing sick. and TIM would probably be cool with building his own reapers out of turians, quarians, asari and who knows who else to gain human dominance. the paragon decision would first of all to never use such repulsive technologies and especially to not give said tech to the wrong hands AND to always regard ALL races. he was interesting but i did not trust that guy at all. at the end i was like buddy you work for me now. nice job changing your sun background to blue because you're sad.

[TheKnave69]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

Then we're just going to have to leave it as magic.

Isn't all high technology "magic" when confronted by a species that is less technologically advanced?  Think about the Precolumbian Americans when confronted by the Conquistadors.  Hm.  These white men have boom sticks that kill by making a noise...  They must be Gods.

[Inverness Moon]

LucidStrike wrote...

[truth]In absence of the choice to offer the Reaper to the entire galactic community for study and in the context of the Mass Effect universe, the morally sound decision was to destroy the Reaper, rather than provide an ultra-nationalist militant organization with hyper-advanced technology and weaponry.[/truth]

If the right choice was so obvious BioWare would not have made the choice available. Remember that same organization is the only reason you were able to defeat the collectors, save many more lives, and prevent the creation of a new reaper.

TIM has proven that he can get things done, I gave him the base because it is better than destroying the base and hoping we find some other way to destroy an army of reapers. I also don't think he is stupid, steps will be taken to ensure that indoctrination does not happen again.

Also I think I mentioned this before, but it is a collector base, not a derelict reaper. I believe it is incorrect to assume that people can become indoctrination by being on the collector base for long periods of time.

i love lamp x3 wrote...

one.. because it's effing sick.
and TIM would probably be cool with building his own reapers out of
turians, quarians, asari and who knows who else to gain human
dominance. the paragon decision would first of all to never use such
repulsive technologies and especially to not give said tech to the
wrong hands AND to always regard ALL races. he was interesting but i
did not trust that guy at all. at the end i was like buddy you work for
me now. nice job changing your sun background to blue because you're
sad.

You're just making assumptions about what TIM would do, rather extreme assumptions. Cerberus would loose more than it would gain by attempting something like that.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 01 février 2010 - 04:35 .

[TheKnave69]

DesetFox1943 wrote...

I'm not getting why everyone is blaming 'TIM' For all the Cerberus experiments. EDI Tells you that Cerberus is composed of many cell operations and one cell operative can not tell who another operative from another cell is. So in theory you could have people working side by side both working for Cerberus but not knowing they work for the same. So in theory couldn't 'TIM' NOT know about all the things Cerberus does.
'

EDI also tells you that there are no more than a couple of dozen Cerberus experiments going on at any one time because TIM wants to be in control of all of them.

[Hooligunn]

Something I noticed a TON of you guys are saying is about how the Reapers rely on Organics using their technology to easily defeat them. But by saving the ship, who said it's going to be USED against them?

For example, studying the technology of the ship gives you a better chance to defeat the enemy. Information is power, and knowing the technology behind your enemy means you have a better chance of exploiting the enemy. By destroying the ship, you've just lost any chance of studying the technology.

On top of that, even if they were to use it, do you really think the Reapers expected Organics to take over a Collector base through the Omega 4 relay? Harbinger himself had to shut down his control of the Collector General because he couldn't stop them doing it and the battle was lost - if there was a way for the Reapers to have expected an attack on the base to happen, they would have been able to lay a trap and prevent it. They expected anyone who tried to get through the Omega 4 relay to be destroyed by the IFF secret code signal that was emitted. That failed. THERE was the Reaper countermeasure. They thought it would end there, and didn't account for EDI being able to counteract the threat. On top of that, the strong defences the Collectors had past the Omega 4 relay gives even more confidence - there were hundreds of destroyed ships, why would the Reapers ever assume they'd even get CLOSE to the base?

I think many of you are being way too clean cut when viewing this situation, and not looking at the actual possibility that choosing to save the station may be of some good. Don't get me wrong, I'm expecting the Illusive Man to try and abuse it at some point, but in a war against a fleet of amazingly technologically advanced enemy, it's a necessary sacrifice to gain some valuable intelligence on your enemy. But I think the downside of selecting to save the base will be to do with the Illusive Man's actions late into the next game, rather than it not being of any use and doing harm to the galaxy.

Besides, on the subject of the Illusive Man, he was the only person willing to fight the Collectors and save humanity. Had he not done so, the Human Reaper would have been built and with the crippled fleet of the Alliance and the council, probably could have finished what Sovereign started and activated the Citadel as a relay without much resistance. The Council sat back ignorant as always.

That is why I chose to save the vessel. Information and trust in Cerberus to do something with it.

Modifié par Hooligunn, 01 février 2010 - 04:43 .

[TheKnave69]

Why is turning it over to TIM a renegade action? You've given an atomic weapon to someone who has shown a willingness to use it to further his own agenda. The Collector base is a game changing technology. Remember the Prothean beacon in ME, the one on Mars. Anderson says that it jumped technology ahead by 200 years. Imagine what an intact base, using Reaper-derived technology would do. It would drastically shift the balance of power into the hands of Cerberus.



Cerberus has shown that they don't much care about anything but Cerberus, and that given a chance, they would likely as not subjegate the other races, as well as the human one "for its own good." It's the justification that most dictatorships use. Only the leaders are capable of making the hard decisions, and if TIM is the king of the hill, then everyone else is either with him or against him. There is no middle ground, no live and let live. It's manifest destiny taken to an extreme. But I digress.



Bottom line. That much technology in the hands on any one power, doesn't matter who, is too dangerous.

[lltoon]

Even if you do save the collector ship, Cerberus can't take control of it because the Normandy is the ONLY ship that has the Reaper IFF to get there in the first place. Any other Cerberus ships without it won't have a signal to trigger the mass relay safety protocols and they will get destroyed upon reaching the other side.



I still say Shepard can use the normandy to revisit the Omega 4 relay and prove to the council that the Reapers exist, and after the proof has been established, he can safely blow it up.

[Marlina]

adam_grif and aimlessgun, I agree with you guys. 

LucidStrike wrote...

Marlina is like the strangest pessimist here. What kind of communist sympathizer unilaterally considers altruism illogical?

Besides, ever heard of enlightened self-interest?

Now, now, it's just because there's an even greater threat on the horizon. In a perfect world, everyone would be happy, but that's just not how it is. Think of WWII. Was it wrong to fight Germany? I mean, many people died. Of course it was right! Sometimes, sacrifices have to be made in order to ensure survival. As much as I'd like to just make everyone happy, survival trumps everything. Who cares if we're trying to "do the right thing" if there's nobody left over to enjoy it? 
Basically, we can start worrying about galactic politics and being all nice and friendly to each other once the Reaper threat is gone.

Jonny_Evil wrote...

I wonder how many people who destroyed the base have played Warhammer 40k, and how many who saved it haven't? In 40k the concept of something being inherently too dangerous or corrupting to study is well established. Some things will lead you to destruction or slavery no matter how careful you are or how righteous your intentions, because there are things in the galaxy far more intelligent, cunning and subtle than any man could be.

I get the same vibe from the Reapers, all of their technology is suspect, to be tolerated only when absolutely necessary like the IFF. Simply because they are too advanced, ancient and powerful to ever be underestimated.

ALL citadel races are already using Reaper technology on a massive scale. The entire concept of the mass effect is derived from the Reapers. Are you suggesting we abandon everything? Actually, I think we wouldn't be able to defeat the Reapers without their tech. Think of defeating Sovereign without using any sort of mass effect tech. 

[Hooligunn]

TheKnave69 wrote...

Cerberus has shown that they don't much care about anything but Cerberus, and that given a chance, they would likely as not subjegate the other races, as well as the human one "for its own good." It's the justification that most dictatorships use.

But that means he will use the technology to it's fullest extent, whether in study or actually using the thing, to help humanity be strong against the Reapers.

The Reapers threaten Cerberus, therefore TIM will do anything to stop them. He let aliens on a Cerberus owned ship, even at his own recommendation, to ensure you were strong enough to tackle this huge galactic threat to both Cerberus and Humanity. The Reapers continue that threat, therefore he'll utilize it against the Reapers whether that be through technological study or otherwise.

In other words, when it comes down to it, Cerberus will help the council and everyone else tackle the Reaper threat. Therefore, it was a necessary sacrifice. The after effects of doing so, once the Reaper invasion is dealt with, can be tackled then. An army of Reapers is far more threat to humanity than one Collector base.

It's far too important to pass up, no matter who's hands it's in. Cerberus, like everyone else, HAS to fight this coming invasion. That means no matter what, they'll make use of it to help stop the Reapers. That's how I justify my decision.

[Inverness Moon]

TheKnave69 wrote...

Bottom line. That much technology in the hands on any one power, doesn't matter who, is too dangerous.

That technology is already in the hands of an army of reapers on their way to the galaxy. Now you can either blow up the station and hope for the best, or preserve and study it and attempt to produce something that can match or overcome the reapers.

If you knew you were going to go to war against a power with atomic weapons and you found advanced schematics. Would you destroy those and hope you can match that power some other way, or would you use that stuff to arm yourself with the same weapons?

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 01 février 2010 - 04:56 .

[branman887]

Did nobody else see the evil smirk TIM gave if you save the base?



Yeah, saving it is renegade because you are handing it over to a group that is willing to kill anyone to further their agenda. Yes, it is because of Cerberus that the Collectors were stopped, but I'm sure their reasoning was not 100% noble.

[Nautica773]

Mostly because the alignment system doesn't make any sense. During Legion's loyalty mission, reprogramming the heretic Geth is considered Renegade at the start, but Paragon at the end even though nothing has changed in the interim.

Besides, is there even an indication what Paragon or Renegade is suppose to represent? All the game provides is 'Be the ultimate Hero and pursue Paragon options' or 'Be the greatest bad ass while making Renegade choices!'

[Jonny_Evil]

Inverness Moon wrote...

TIM has proven that he can get things done, I gave him the base because it is better than destroying the base and hoping we find some other way to destroy an army of reapers. I also don't think he is stupid, steps will be taken to ensure that indoctrination does not happen again.

Also I think I mentioned this before, but it is a collector base, not a derelict reaper. I believe it is incorrect to assume that people can become indoctrination by being on the collector base for long periods of time.

I don't think the Illusive Man is stupid, I think he's extremely intelligent and cunning. The question that must be asked, however, is this: Is he more intelligent and more cunning than an ancient AI who has been conquering and manipulating civilisations for millions of years? You're taking one hell of a risk on that gamble, all it would take would be his exposure to an innocuous piece of technology that has indoctrination capability embedded and Cerberus turns to the Reapers.

As to the presence of indoctrination technology on the Collector base, Harbinger was using it to control the Collectors, so there must be some. Either way it relies on an assumption, only your way disaster strikes if your assumption is wrong, it doesn't if mine is wrong.

[aimlessgun]

Reiisha wrote...

Neither the council nor the alliance would risk sending ships through the relay. For all they know, Shepard is still dellusional. If they didn't trust him when a gigantic Reaper attacked them right in their faces, they probably won't trust him when he just tells them that there's a space station beyond a relay which no one has ever survived going through which leads to an area in the galactic core which is supposed to be impossible to survive in. I doubt they would even get someone to check it out, let alone send a fleet to secure the station. By the time they actually do get there for whatever reason, they may be destroyed anyway because they don't have a Cerberus IFF, just like other ships were destroyed because they didn't have a collector IFF.

Ummm...we have pictures. Vids. Nav data. Readings left and right. I'll take Emily Wong out there. It's not difficult to prove that the thing exists. As for the IFF: you can replicate it eh? Making sure EDI doesn't wipe it is pure speculation, but you can replicate it.

That ignores my points about the dangers the station still represents. I'd especially worry about the connection Harbinger has with it. I wouldn't put remote indoctrination past the reapers, nor any traps left by the collectors in case someone would try to adapt their tech - Again, take the Reaper IFF as an example which has taken the most advanced ship and the most advanced AI in council space by surprise. A lesser ship, equipment and VI would have no chance against any viral attack.

The decision was difficult, but in the end i think it was way too dangerous to leave the station around. Even if the council found out and took it... It would very probably trigger civil war within the council races over it's control. That's what such things do. Let alone the consequences of Cerberus having it.

I didn't mean to ignore your points, I was just pointing to the extensive discussion that had happened that talked about those very things, and I didn't wish to type about it more.

[john william]

Ok, I think I figured it out. Paragon is for players who want to play in a fairy tale universe where the good guy always wins no matter how costly his moral vanity would be in the real world. Renegade is for people who want to play in a murkier universe where doing the right thing often means getting your hands dirty. That's all I can figure.

[Nautica773]

Jonny_Evil wrote...

I don't think the Illusive Man is stupid, I think he's extremely intelligent and cunning. The question that must be asked, however, is this: Is he more intelligent and more cunning than an ancient AI who has been conquering and manipulating civilisations for millions of years? You're taking one hell of a risk on that gamble, all it would take would be his exposure to an innocuous piece of technology that has indoctrination capability embedded and Cerberus turns to the Reapers.

As to the presence of indoctrination technology on the Collector base, Harbinger was using it to control the Collectors, so there must be some. Either way it relies on an assumption, only your way disaster strikes if your assumption is wrong, it doesn't if mine is wrong.

First, I doubt Illusive Man is foolish enough to actually go to the Collector Base himself. He has a comfy chair, I would be very surprised if he ever left it. He has the resources and connections to create teams to go into the dangerous areas for him. Plus, going to the base himself would serve no purpose. He certainly can't analyse Reaper technology.

Also, I don't think indoctrination was used to control the Collector's. If I remember correctly, they were genetically manipulated and cloned to be essentially mindless slaves. Indoctrination would have been used to initially enslave the Protheans and use them to create Reapers but I doubt it kept the Collector's loyal. What Harbinger used seems, to me, was just some technology that allowed him to easily control their bodies. 

[Jonny_Evil]

Inverness Moon wrote...

If you knew you were going to go to war against a power with atomic weapons and you found advanced schematics. Would you destroy those and hope you can match that power some other way, or would you use that stuff to arm yourself with the same weapons?

If I was fighting an enemy notorious for manipulation, misdirection and technological traps then yes I would destroy them. There would be no way of knowing the validity of the technology and no way to be sure that it's not got some subtle flaw in the design that will cause it to prematurely detonate and take me out. If I destroy the schematics, then I fight the best I can and hope to win. If I don't, then I'll either fight on a slightly more level playing field or I'll be totally destroyed and lose the war. In the game of chance, the numbers just don't add up.

[Lost Cipher]

Solitas777 wrote...

How is the biological races supposed to design counter measures against reaper tech if they don't reverse engineer their weapons to see how they work? There is nothing renegade about this at all. My super paragon saved the base because I seriously thought it was a paragon descision, it seems selfish to me to blow up such a great resources just to tick TIM off...childish and very renegade.

Completely agree, saved everyone in ME 1 and 2; Rachni, Wrex, Tali and Migrant Fleet, etc...

Now add the resources and tech of the Collector base to that, and the Reapers are screwed.

Modifié par Lost Cipher, 01 février 2010 - 05:16 .