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[Sabriana]

The PC doesn't know Fergus is alive at that point, though. She only finds out afterward.

[beelzeybob]

The PC doesn't know that Fergus is dead either... Damn pessimists.

Modifié par 13eelzebub, 01 février 2010 - 11:08 .

[Sabriana]

Seeing as how Fergus disappears throughout the whole game, only to pop up at the coronation doesn't exactly further optimism.

Coupled with what my PC knows of Ostagar, she'd have to be a serious optimist to assume he's alive. None of my PCs are optimists, they have no reasons to be, given what they went through and still have to go through.

To go back to the topic:

Which, by the way, is one of my least liked moments as well. Where is he during the year it takes my PC to do her stuff? It didn't really tick me off, but I had a serious "What the he**?" moment there.

[MaxQuartiroli]

5) The two candidates to dwarf's Throne.. Neither of them deserve it
4) Isolde.. If I wouldn't play as lawful good I would let her sacrificice herself instead send Morrigan into the Fade to kill the Demon...
3) When Alistair revealed me that after the joining corruption will kill me in max 30 years !! Very sad thing to know !!! Don't wanna die young...
2) When I had to give crown to Anora and kick off Alistair beacause I wanted give Loghain opportunity to expiate his guilts... and Alistair did not allow me to do it.. (I had not hardened him...)
1) Arle Howe... The only real son of a ... in the whole game.... P.S. Have you noticed he is the only NPc you have no the opportunity to spare?

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 01 février 2010 - 02:29 .

[Chas1024]

Sabriana wrote...

Which, by the way, is one of my least liked moments as well. Where is he during the year it takes my PC to do her stuff? It didn't really tick me off, but I had a serious "What the he**?" moment there.

In the Pearl seeking 'consolation' after the death of his wife?

[A.N.A.N]

Chas1024 wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Which, by the way, is one of my least liked moments as well. Where is he during the year it takes my PC to do her stuff? It didn't really tick me off, but I had a serious "What the he**?" moment there.

In the Pearl seeking 'consolation' after the death of his wife?

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

But really, he mentions that it took him so long to get out of the Wilds, having to dodge Darkspawn the entire way most likely, that the PC was already on the way to the Final battle,

[Mergad]

5) Morrigans shortsightedness. For a woman, who seeks power and has been raised by a woman such as Flemeth... She can't see, that sometimes it's better to lie and tell someone you'll help them to get them to do what you want. She always, as has been mentioned before, disaproves if you help the "good guys". I wish there was atelast an option to tell her, that you're really not going to give a damn about the smith's daughter in the castle. You just want him to forge the damn armors.



4) Jowans compalining about how he always messes things up and how no-one understands him. Yea, no-one understands you, if you always do screw things up by "helping" people and yourself in the worst ways.



3)The way Wynne suddenly takes up and leaves at some point after you've defiled the ashes. I had her in quite high reputation and all, I had done the elves between defiling and her departure and she all of a sudden throws a hissy fit and gives me no chance to explain myself or try to sweet talk her out of it. After all the good I'd done for her...



2)I too join at Lets-hate-Isolde-group. I actually let her sacrifice herself on the first time, but after that I just can't do that to Alistair. He's been through enough hardships to knowingly add another.



1) Loghain. He strikes me as a person who's too enamoured with his position as a "Hero" to let anyone take it away, be it Gray Wardens or the king. He seems to have done the deserting and outlawing any survivors who knew the truth just so he could remain as the hero of Ferelden and get a throne for himself to the boot. I'm rather sure he won't survive our encounter in the Landsmeet, if I can decide.

[MaxQuartiroli]

Mergad wrote...

3)The way Wynne suddenly takes up and leaves at some point after you've defiled the ashes. I had her in quite high reputation and all, I had done the elves between defiling and her departure and she all of a sudden throws a hissy fit and gives me no chance to explain myself or try to sweet talk her out of it. After all the good I'd done for her...

.

Well.. I believe that defiling ashes is the most "blasphemic" thing you can do in whole game.. So you should not be surprised if  believer characters like Leliana and Wynnie turns against you..whatever you may have done for them before...  

[Freckles04]

Top five things that made me mad...hmm, let's see.

5. Anora's betrayal. Although I do love the dialogue options that come after it. And Zevran's comments back at Eamon's if you have him in your party when you're taken by Ser Cauthrien. I especially like the comment you can make to Alistair in the cell: "I'm going to strangle Anora." "Can I hold her down while you do it?"

4. Goldanna. Harpy. Nuff said.

3. Orzammar. Everything about it. It made me want to release a few dozen Infernos and wipe out the whole damn Diamond quarter. Seriously, people? The world is about to end and you can't get it together long enough to vote in a leader? To the point that you depend on a Grey Warden to do everything for you? So much for staying neutral. I really hated that I was forced to take a side.

2. Eamon pulling the duty card on Alistair and discussing him like he's not even there. You want him to be king, dammit? Then start treating him like one. The adults in Alistair's life did nothing to help prepare him for being king, and, in fact, did everything to convince him he wasn't worthy. So now you expect him to jump for joy that this is your plan? For the Maker's sake, sit down and TALK with him. Grr.

1. Unhardened Alistair dumping the PC after he becomes king. I should have seen it coming on my first playthrough with my elven mage, but I didn't. I was stunned, to be honest. I stared at my TV for a long time, my mouth gaping open, and I couldn't believe how torn up I felt.

Modifié par Freckles04, 01 février 2010 - 02:42 .

[Riona45]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

Well.. I believe that defiling ashes is the most "blasphemic" thing you can do in whole game.. So you should not be surprised if  believer characters like Leliana and Wynnie turns against you..whatever you may have done for them before...  

Well, Wynne actually isn't *that* religious, as per a conversation she has with Leliana.

Modifié par Riona45, 01 février 2010 - 02:54 .

[MaxQuartiroli]

Riona45 wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

Well.. I believe that defiling ashes is the most "blasphemic" thing you can do in whole game.. So you should not be surprised if  believer characters like Leliana and Wynnie turns against you..whatever you may have done for them before...  

Well, Wynne actually isn't *that* religious, as per a conversation she has with Leliana.

Yeah you are right... rethinking this I believe that only Leliana turns against you for religious motivations.. and that Wynnie turns against you because she obviously can't accept that you performed something connected to blood-magic, whatever may be your reasons...

[Treason1]

My top five? Each and every time my characters ignore the charging darkspawn/guards/dragons, to attack the farthest stationed enemy, thus leaving my Mage exposed to all sorts of horribly sharp and pointy objects...Most of the time they're good about this..just..every so often...

[SurelyForth]

5. Morrigan's reasoning for setting Jowan free- Every time she says that he shouldn't be punished for the choices he's made, I just want to set her on fire. That's EXACTLY why he should be punished- he made a series of horrible choices that both directly AND indirectly led to the entire predicament at Redcliffe. I don't know why it irks me so much, but it does.



4. Zerlinda's Woe/A Mother's Hope- I love the lore and depth of Orzammar and the Deep Roads, but the one-two punch of these quests really gets me. Between wanting to smash Ordell's smug face and dying a little when Ruck talks about his mother remembering a boy with bright eyes and a hammer, both instill in me an overwhelming sense of unfairness. It seems strange, considering all the terrible things that can happen to the PC, but I think those two quests would be what hardened most of my characters. The former exposes the horrible things people will do for propriety, and the other is one of those decisions that would really haunt me, since Ruck is still recognizably human (dwarven) despite his twisted form and encroaching madness.



3. Eamon. Even on my first playthrough, when I knew absolutely nothing more than the game presented me with, I hated having to waste time to save him only to feel like his political pawn once he was healed. I despise the way he guilts Alistair into accepting that he will be put forward as the heir (with the stress placed on Warden neutrality, such a motion did NOT sit well with that PC), to say nothing of the fact that he obviously views Alistair as little more than a puppet. I feel like he is incredibly self-serving and I resent that the PC has to silently play along.



2. Riordan at the Landsmeet- I know that there is a plot reason for the Landsmeet to play out the way it does, but I hate how out of nowhere his intrusion is and the fact that the discussion is a) so limited and takes place out in front of the Landsmeet. He was at Eamon's estate before the Landsmeet, why in the world did he not approach the PC with the proposal to make Loghain a Grey Warden then? There would have been time for discussion and debate, as well as an opportunity for Riordan to assess what the PC and Alistair do and do not know about the Warden's role in ending the Blight. Even being able to call a recess would have been nice, anything to make the whole thing seem more natural. It could still result in the same "one or the other" decision, but it would feel so much less forced.



1. The Loghain/Howe/Cauthrien trifecta- All three are varying degrees of vile and I wish there was some way to end the first confrontation at Eamon's with a rude gesture and perhaps a parting shot of "Get it out of your system now, because all three of you will die by my hand before this is over."

[Some Dude On The Internet]

I still say EVERY dialog should have an [Attack] option.

[errant_knight]

Freckles04 wrote...

5. Anora's betrayal. Although I do love the dialogue options that come after it. And Zevran's comments back at Eamon's if you have him in your party when you're taken by Ser Cauthrien. I especially like the comment you can make to Alistair in the cell: "I'm going to strangle Anora." "Can I hold her down while you do it?" [...]

I've never heard that. How does it come about?

[SurelyForth]

errant_knight wrote...

Freckles04 wrote...

5. Anora's betrayal. Although I do love the dialogue options that come after it. And Zevran's comments back at Eamon's if you have him in your party when you're taken by Ser Cauthrien. I especially like the comment you can make to Alistair in the cell: "I'm going to strangle Anora." "Can I hold her down while you do it?" [...]

I've never heard that. How does it come about?

If you tell Cauthrien that you are at Howe's to rescue Anora and ask for Anora to come forward, Anora will betray you to your capture (if you lose the fight, of course).

Back at Fort Drakon, once you come to, you have an additional line about strangling Anora that you can say to Alistair.

[Freckles04]

errant_knight wrote...

Freckles04 wrote...

5. Anora's betrayal. Although I do love the dialogue options that come after it. And Zevran's comments back at Eamon's if you have him in your party when you're taken by Ser Cauthrien. I especially like the comment you can make to Alistair in the cell: "I'm going to strangle Anora." "Can I hold her down while you do it?" [...]

I've never heard that. How does it come about?

When you rescue Anora and are ambushed by Ser Cauthrien on your way out, you have to try to convince Cauthrien that you were there to rescue the Queen. She doesn't believe you (duh) so you have an option to say "It's true! Tell her, Anora." At this point, Anora will step forward and accuse you of trying to kidnap her.

In the following cutscene when Anora shows up at Eamon's estate,  Zevran (if you had him in your party when you were arrested) has a few nasty words for her (romanced or not). My favourite is "I'm still waiting for a reason not to slit her throat and dump her in the river. I haven't heard it yet."

Following that, you'll have the Fort Drakon cutscene, where you awaken in the cell with Alistair, and one of your dialogue options will be "I'm going to strangle Anora".

Okay, so maybe giving Anora away when you're in the midst of rescuing her isn't the smartest thing,  but then (from a roleplaying perspective) plans change once you're confronted with a murderous knight and her squad of heavily armed guards and mages. I always choose to reveal her, because it proves early on that she's a lying you-know-what and makes it all that much easier to depose her.

Enjoy!

[Zecele]

1. Arl Howe. I don't think I've wanted to kill a villain so bad since Sephiroth killed Aeris.

2. Alistair at the Landsmeet. It's been said, but I hate his reaction to wanting to induct Loghain into the Grey Wardens. To correct a poster further upthread though you do not know at the landsmeet that a Grey Warden has to die to kill the archdemon. You find that out the night after the landsmeet (because Loghain has to be an option for Morrigan to sleep with).

3. The dwarf kings. Didn't like either of them. Actually to tell the truth I didn't like most of the dwarves in this game. I'll admit freely that I'm totally biased in this regard by a pre-conception of what dwarves from other venues, particularly LoTR and DnD literature. Their complete lack of concern for one another (in other books the most important thing to dwarves was kin of any rank) paired with the political rivalries was rather jarring to me.  The dwarf girl that gets outcast unlesss she kills her infant son is heartbreaking.

4. Isolde, ugh.

5. Anora, same thing.

Modifié par Zecele, 01 février 2010 - 05:05 .

[David Gaider]

Zecele wrote...
2. Alistair at the Landsmeet. It's been said, but I hate his reaction to wanting to induct Loghain into the Grey Wardens. To correct a poster further upthread though you do not know at the landsmeet that a Grey Warden has to die to kill the archdemon. You find that out the night after the landsmeet (because Loghain has to be an option for Morrigan to sleep with).

Indeed. You also don't know at that point that when you face the Archdemon it will be just the Wardens at hand, before reinforcements will arrive. Loghain could conceivably die in battle, yes, but so could the player or anyone else -- you have no idea that a sacrifice is required.

Would it be more convenient to know? Sure. But you don't. If you were to say to Alistair that you intend for Loghain to die somehow I'm pretty sure that Alistair would say that Loghain should die right there, paying for his crimes. Dying honorably, fighting for his country, is not something Alistair thinks Loghain deserves. The idea that players get annoyed because they can't arrange matters to suit the out-of-game knowledge they have about the sacrifice is a bit baffling. There are reasons to think Loghain might be useful, as well as reasons to think that Alistair is being a big baby, but suggesting that Alistair should trust that Loghain should be allowed to redeem himself by dying as a Grey Warden performing an act you don't even know is necessary yet does not really hold water.

That said, it's fun to see people get so emotional about it.

[grallonsphere]

Sabriana wrote...


Loghain is different in that he does it to keep his oath to Maric, but everything spins horribly out of control very quickly. He does all the wrong things to stem the tide, but it's hopeless. He is to blind and to paranoid to see that he's losing control. There are a few cut-scenes where he looks very depressed, upset, and even sad, but he fails to do the right thing each and every time.

If/when you do RtOstagar you'll understand a great deal more about Loghain's motivations...  (SPOILERS ->)
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When you return to Ostagar you are taxed to find Cailan's War Chest that contains part of his armor as well as secret documents.  When you finally read the 3 letters you discover:


- Cailain had been trying to get the help of Orlais (alluded to in the main game);
- Aemon had been urging Cailan to get rid of Anora since she's presumably infertile;
- Finally Cailan has been discussing of a potential marriage with the Empress of Orlais...

Not only is Loghain furious to be dismissed as a strategist by the young king, he sees his power and influence disappearing if Cailan divorces his daughter.  Not only that, but the young fool might actually get in bed with Orlais... destroying (in his eyes), his (and Marec's) life's work.  So he consciously takes steps to remove the king.
 
In a way his is the most tragic tale - as is often the case when one realizes that 'the best is the ennemy of the good' .

-----

As for the OP's question:

- Morrigan/Flemeth's hypocrisy (about the ritual - planned from the first...)
- the Maker's imbecilic curse of the magisters which created the Darkspawns in the first place
- the Chantry for being what all organized religions are: tools for sanctimonious and hypocritical control freaks
- the Circle Magii for being sheeps
- the caste system in Orzamar




G. 

[Addai]

Freckles04 wrote...
3. Orzammar. Everything about it. It made me want to release a few dozen Infernos and wipe out the whole damn Diamond quarter. Seriously, people? The world is about to end and you can't get it together long enough to vote in a leader? To the point that you depend on a Grey Warden to do everything for you? So much for staying neutral. I really hated that I was forced to take a side.

Er, well, to be fair, Orzammar's unrest is tame compared to the civil war fiasco going on among the humans of Ferelden.

I'm surprised that people have such a strong negative reaction to Eamon.  He is trying to hold the kingdom together.  Somebody has to do it?

As for my rage moments, Vaughan and Vaughan.  Returning to the alienage as a city elf, and Loghain's lame-ass justification for the purge later.  And Howe, on a human noble playthrough.  Anyone else have your party hold so that you can take the final blows on Howe yourself?  Too bad there's not a slo-mo ending where you get to see your PC sticking the Cousland family sword through his neck.

Modifié par Addai67, 01 février 2010 - 05:47 .

[RobinMichelleB]

Would it be more convenient to know? Sure. But you don't. If you were to say to Alistair that you intend for Loghain to die somehow I'm pretty sure that Alistair would say that Loghain should die right there, paying for his crimes. Dying honorably, fighting for his country, is not something Alistair thinks Loghain deserves. The idea that players get annoyed because they can't arrange matters to suit the out-of-game knowledge they have about the sacrifice is a bit baffling. There are reasons to think Loghain might be useful, as well as reasons to think that Alistair is being a big baby, but suggesting that Alistair should trust that Loghain should be allowed to redeem himself by dying as a Grey Warden performing an act you don't even know is necessary yet does not really hold water.

Yeah, I'm pretty confident that Alistair would not be okay with letting Loghain be the hero who slays the archdemon, whether he dies or not. I mean, that just kind of negates all the bad things he did and he will eventually be remembered as a man who redeemed himself, not the traitor to the throne.

Sparing Loghain hasn't been an option for me so far because I love Alistair too much to do it to him.  Plus, I don't like Loghain either. LoL

[Cuddlezarro]

well Loghain doesnt need to be the hero that slays the archdemon in my eyes at least



all he needs to do is act as a distraction and "accidentally" get eaten by the archdemon during the fight

[Riona45]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm surprised that people have such a strong negative reaction to Eamon.  He is trying to hold the kingdom together.  Somebody has to do it?

True, but there are sides of him that leave a bit to be desired as well, though I'd be the first to agree that this is subjective. 

[GeorgeZip]

My first playthrough mistakes:

1. Not noticing that Coersion skill on my main character.

2. Playing as a shield spec warrior and figuring I'd get to know Allistair next game.

3. Dealing with Allistair at Landsmeet having barely talked to him before! He's not so bad in subsequent playthroughs but my god he pissed me off.