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[melkathi]

David Gaider wrote...


Indeed. You also don't know at that point that when you face the Archdemon it will be just the Wardens at hand, before reinforcements will arrive.

Just to this bit I keep hearing.

Obviously we don't know when the Archdemon will show itself. But it's not as if everyone was planning to sit there twiddling their thumbs till it does. At this point we know that the Archdemon is active (have seen it while in the dead trenches), knows about the grey warden presence (attack on the camp) and that the darkspawn are overrunning Ferelden, with most of south Ferelden having already fallen to the blight.
The main reason the wardens win the Landsmeet (if they do) is because they call for decisive action against the blight instead of Loghain's paranoia of Orlais. The Landsmeet ends and the leaders of the army gather in Redcliff to finally get started on the darkspawn killing instead of the killing eachother.
There never was a question about what you'd do the morning after the Landsmeet: you'd march out of Denerim to face the darkspawn. Alistair knew that much and if he didn't, well then he isn't a whiner but an idiot
By storming out, Alistair did turn his back on the fight at a crucial moment - at the moment you were finally able to act.
The only thing the Archdemon's appearance and sudden mobilization of it's hordes changes is that by the time Alistair had cooled off and would likely have returned to argue with you but do his bit fighting the good fight, he was no longer able to, as the darkspawn horde was between him and the army.

I guess a fair way of judging one's defense of Alistair's, or any character's action, is imagining using it in a discussion not on the forum but with Bann Wulff. Try telling him that it's ok a Grey Warden abandones the fight because we don't expect the Archdemon to strike just yet.

[Lady Catastrophe]

Freckles04 wrote...
2. Eamon pulling the duty card on Alistair and discussing him like he's not even there. You want him to be king, dammit? Then start treating him like one. The adults in Alistair's life did nothing to help prepare him for being king, and, in fact, did everything to convince him he wasn't worthy. So now you expect him to jump for joy that this is your plan? For the Maker's sake, sit down and TALK with him. Grr.

This.
I liked Eamon as a character before he started constantly blabbering on about how important it was for Alistair to become King.Preserving a bloodline as old as the Theirin's is all well and good,but to obsessively try and talk you into supporting Alistair's claim to the throne at the landsmeet (while he's standing right next to the two of you) is ridiculous,considering the fact that Alistair had been raised to believe he would never be in line for the throne or even worthy of it.

[Sandtigress]

Actually, what annoys me about the Landsmeet scene is that I couldn't take it back when I realized Alistair was actually going to leave. Were it up to me, I would have taken the sword and put it through Loghain myself to get him back. Which is why I reloaded and just RPed it as her realizing that he would really leave before he left. :-P



Others of mine...Arl Howe, now that I have a HNF. I'm getting close to the Landsmeet, so Howe, your hour is coming!



Ser Jory. I just can't stand this guy. I had fun with my City elf and mage insulting him, since my Dalish elf and HNF were too polite to do it.



Anora. Hate hate hate her. I think its her single-mindedness in pursuing the throne, it just kind of feels to me that she has no heart or compassion for anyone else because she wants to be queen so bad. I don't even think she's necessarily a bad ruler, politically, I just feel like she has no heart, and therefore I can't put her on the throne.



That none of my party cared all that much when Alistair broke it off to be king. Gee guys, thanks for caring. :-P



Goldanna. I hate her too. What a harpy! Here's poor Alistair who just wants a family to love him, and he gets her. Poor guy. It was very satisfying when my City elf said that someone should cut her tongue out. Too bad Alistair dragged her off, I would have totally done it!



Caridin, when he says "Help me, friend!" and then proceeds to be a paperweight through that whole fight. Yes yes, Branka apparently inactivated him with the control rod, but his wimp other golems could fight! It only makes me mad because not until my most recent playthrough with my HNF could I beat that fight without putting it on casual, but still. Why do I always have to do everyone else's fighting?!

[ciaweth]

1. Isolde. Every playthrough, I'm tempted to let her die. Aside from her snobbery and her idiotic handling of the Connor problem, what kind of tart forces her husband to kick a boy out of the only home he's ever known and hand him over to the Chantry?

2. Eamon. Eamon's uglier side comes to light in RtO. Plus he's blind to Isolde's idiocy and is willing to give Alistair the shaft to placate her even though her insecurities are unfounded. As soon as Alistair has a chance at being king, Eamon picks him right back up. Smooth.

3. Vaughn. Ever since I played through the City Elf origin, I murder his pixels with a smile on my face.

4. Anora. I think she would get less flack for her ambition if she were male--Eamon is almost as ambitious as she--but she still needs to treat the elves better.

5. The Chantry, but just the jerks. There are plenty of Chantry people doing charity work and so on, and those are fine by me. However, the folks who think Exalted Marches are awesome need to be cleansed with fire.

[David Gaider]

Cuddlezarro wrote...
well Loghain doesnt need to be the hero that slays the archdemon in my eyes at least

all he needs to do is act as a distraction and "accidentally" get eaten by the archdemon during the fight

So if the point is just for him to die, why not kill him at the Landsmeet? Why give him the honor of becoming a Grey Warden in the hopes he might die heroically fighting the Archdemon -- a fight you're not even sure is about to happen yet, or how many might be involved in it? Honestly I think one could more traction arguing with Alistair that Loghain should live to repay what he's done, either in prison or performing some other ignominious task. Certainly not as a Grey Warden, and absolutely not to die heroically as one.

Not to distract from the purpose of the thread and turn it into an Alistair-fest, of course.

For me, my blood boils with Anora. Like with Loghain, it doesn't matter that she might be right. I still want to drop-kick her off Fort Drakon.

melkathi wrote...
By storming out, Alistair did turn his back on the fight at a crucial moment - at the moment you were finally able to act.
The only thing the Archdemon's appearance and sudden mobilization of it's hordes changes is that by the time Alistair had cooled off and would likely have returned to argue with you but do his bit fighting the good fight, he was no longer able to, as the darkspawn horde was between him and the army.

Indeed. I've said previously that if there's anything that Alistair does which could be considered truly objectionable it's abandoning the Grey Wardens to fight without him. At that point, however, he simply doesn't care -- it's an attitude he'll come to regret later. All I was referencing was people thinking that Alistair should swallow the idea that he should accept Loghain as a Grey Warden because of knowledge they don't even have in-character.

And while the Fereldan army had been roused to fight the darkspawn at the Landsmeet, that means they were about to start fighting them in earnest -- not that they were about to march out the next morning and fling themselves headlong at the horde. Ideally they would have fought a holding action until reinforcements could arrive, as the fight at Denerim that occurred would have gone very poorly were it not for the Archdemon's death. It was a desperate and unwise gamble, and a necessity that simply wasn't known about several days before at the Landsmeet.

Modifié par David Gaider, 01 février 2010 - 06:10 .

[Sandtigress]

Oh yeah. That random guy at the Landsmeet who always sides with Loghain, no matter what. I always want to yell "Who ARE you?!" whenever he says "I stand with Loghain." You just got majorly outvoted dude, 1 to 7 or so. Stop being a rebel and fall in line with the rest of them!

[Cuddlezarro]

because your not given a chance to not make him a grey warden and have him live and I want him to be a dragons chew toy while I try to kill it



thats pretty much it no deep reason or argument or anything I just wanted Loghain to be bait while my group attack the thing

[Sandtigress]

David Gaider wrote...

For me, my blood boils with Anora. Like with Loghain, it doesn't matter that she might be right. I still want to drop-kick her off Fort Drakon.

Hehehe, this makes me sooooo happy.  Loghain I can justify.  Anora, I just hate.

[TUHD]

You are one of those who created her.... with the hindsight of having a target to relieve any possible frustration on later on?



My rage moment?... When I found out I had given Alistair permission to give our last 15 sovereigns to his sister in Denerim Curse choosing to skip parts of the convo and not paying attention

No, honestly... hmmm... any attempts to talk with Sten when you don't have a very good relation with him yet. Drives you nuts, the few he wants to say

[ciaweth]

Oh right, and Howe, too. But he's just about the only major character who is just thoroughly evil. I feel bad for his son (Thomas?), who is said to have had no hand in his father's doings. When the Grey Wardens get Amaranthine, what happens to that poor guy?

[Addai]

Lady Catastrophe wrote...
This.
I liked Eamon as a character before he started constantly blabbering on about how important it was for Alistair to become King.Preserving a bloodline as old as the Theirin's is all well and good,but to obsessively try and talk you into supporting Alistair's claim to the throne at the landsmeet (while he's standing right next to the two of you) is ridiculous,considering the fact that Alistair had been raised to believe he would never be in line for the throne or even worthy of it.

But that is not all Eamon's fault.  In fact, it seems clear that Eamon was trying as best he could to keep Maric's son as a spare heir without openly undermining his sister and Cailan.  I think it's more clear if you read The Stolen Throne how important it is for people who lived through that to be able to rally around the throne of Calenhad.  People literally died to preserve that throne- lots of people, including Eamon's own family.  It is not just an idle notion of his.  If he has to strong-arm a bit to see that preserved, I don't think that is unforgivable.  And he does leave the final monarchy decision to you, remarkably.  Perhaps foolishly.  Heh.

I don't recall on my one playthrough where I made Anora sole ruler what, if anything, he says to you at post-coronation?

As for the fact that he patronizes Alistair a bit, to me that all plays into the arc of Alistair being the diamond in the rough.  I personally love it that many of my characters have been the only ones who saw Alistair for what he really was.

[Riona45]

Lady Catastrophe wrote...
This.
I liked Eamon as a character before he started constantly blabbering on about how important it was for Alistair to become King.Preserving a bloodline as old as the Theirin's is all well and good,but to obsessively try and talk you into supporting Alistair's claim to the throne at the landsmeet (while he's standing right next to the two of you) is ridiculous,considering the fact that Alistair had been raised to believe he would never be in line for the throne or even worthy of it.

It comes off as a bit self-serving as well, since Arl Eamon is in the perfect position to become Alistair's advisor (and perhaps the de facto ruler?) if Alistair takes the throne.  He even implies this himself during his "Alistair will make a fine king..." dialogue after you come back from Fort Drakon/killing Cauthrien--he says Alistair will know to who to turn to guidance when he needs it (and he would need it, as he has had no training in politics).  And yes, it doesn't help that Eamon does most of his talking to YOU and not even Alistair, right in front of Alistair, which implies that he couldn't care less about what Alistair's thoughts and feelings are.  Alistair is having the course of his life determined for him all over again.

PS:  Can't say I was overly moved by the "preserving the bloodline" argument either...just because you were created when the "right" sperm met the "right" egg doesn't mean you will make a great ruler.

Modifié par Riona45, 01 février 2010 - 06:07 .

[Freckles04]

David Gaider wrote...

Indeed. You also don't know at that point that when you face the Archdemon it will be just the Wardens at hand, before reinforcements will arrive. Loghain could conceivably die in battle, yes, but so could the player or anyone else -- you have no idea that a sacrifice is required.

Would it be more convenient to know? Sure. But you don't. If you were to say to Alistair that you intend for Loghain to die somehow I'm pretty sure that Alistair would say that Loghain should die right there, paying for his crimes. Dying honorably, fighting for his country, is not something Alistair thinks Loghain deserves. The idea that players get annoyed because they can't arrange matters to suit the out-of-game knowledge they have about the sacrifice is a bit baffling. There are reasons to think Loghain might be useful, as well as reasons to think that Alistair is being a big baby, but suggesting that Alistair should trust that Loghain should be allowed to redeem himself by dying as a Grey Warden performing an act you don't even know is necessary yet does not really hold water.

That said, it's fun to see people get so emotional about it.

I've always been in the camp that sees Alistair's reaction at the Landsmeet as completely understandable. I think it's a tribute to the character developed to that point that he doesn't just suddenly gain a mature insight into the whole thing and allow Loghain to be recruited after voicing his concerns. As Mr. Gaider has said before, everyone has their breaking point, and Alistair's is the fate of Loghain.

I don't understand the consternation this causes. Alistair's potential reaction is hinted at from the beginning. Right after Ostagar, at Flemeth's hut, he states more than once that Loghain must be brought to justice. THAT is his driving mission, with the Blight being a close second. When you're finally in a position to mete out justice to Loghain, and begin to waver, of course he's going to sound his objections, and strongly. By sparing Loghain, you're betraying Alistair all over again, and, really, how much can one man take? His decision to walk away from the PC and the Wardens is one made in a rage, and ultimately one I think he comes to regret. But Alistair simply doesn't have the emotional IQ to step back from what he's feeling and think about the situation logically, and he has never done that throughout the entire game up to that point. That doesn't make him a bad character; it makes him a real one.

[Addai]

ciaweth wrote...

Oh right, and Howe, too. But he's just about the only major character who is just thoroughly evil. I feel bad for his son (Thomas?), who is said to have had no hand in his father's doings. When the Grey Wardens get Amaranthine, what happens to that poor guy?

Well, if you're a human noble, you can strip him of title as well as lands.  I do wish we knew more about Thomas.

As for Howe, there is one moment in the HN origin story where you can see that he is not evil personified.  He's frustrated ambition gone horribly twisted, but if you say to him "Arl Howe, I just wanted to wish you well," he is clearly rattled by it.  A sociopath would take delight in the trust shown by that statement.  OTOH Howe is obviously feeling a wee bit of guilt.  Fat lot of good it does any of you, of course.

[Cuddlezarro]

[quote]

I've always been in the camp that sees Alistair's reaction at the Landsmeet as completely understandable.[quote]



Alistairs reactions is understandable thats not why I wasnt disappointed with that scene though, I just wish you could atleast try to talk to him about it and tell him your reasons but you dont get the chance even if you marry him off to Anora (that conversation post landmeet with him doesnt exactly give you any options on why you did it)

[ciaweth]

Addai67 wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Oh right, and Howe, too. But he's just about the only major character who is just thoroughly evil. I feel bad for his son (Thomas?), who is said to have had no hand in his father's doings. When the Grey Wardens get Amaranthine, what happens to that poor guy?

Well, if you're a human noble, you can strip him of title as well as lands.  I do wish we knew more about Thomas.

As for Howe, there is one moment in the HN origin story where you can see that he is not evil personified.  He's frustrated ambition gone horribly twisted, but if you say to him "Arl Howe, I just wanted to wish you well," he is clearly rattled by it.  A sociopath would take delight in the trust shown by that statement.  OTOH Howe is obviously feeling a wee bit of guilt.  Fat lot of good it does any of you, of course.

Haha!  Yeah.  That little snippet of humanity wasn't good enough for me.  He's still a [expletive deleted] and I enjoy kicking him in the patoot when the opportunity arises. 

[Daewan]

Every time Arl Howe appeared on screen, I could feel my blood pressure rising. He is one of the few villians I actually want to come back JUST so I can have the joy of killing him AGAIN.



Vaughn. I like to imagine that my City Elves painted a pretty picture with his internal organs on the walls of his bedroom. For everyone else, I either kill him in the cell (after getting his key) or let him rot down there forever.



I find that Morrigan's response when I refuse her offer to be much much more annoying than anything Alistair does, mostly because I agree with Alistair and I disagree with Morrigan and her refusal to let me explain makes me really angry.



Anora. Jumped up little farmgirl trying to be a Queen. Hate her. Hate her blind loyalty. Hate her pretending to be a good ruler (the epilogue proves that she doesn't really have what it takes).



Isolde. I hated having to save her when so many others had died, but I couldn't justify such a useless sacrifice. More death wouldn't solve the problem. I did feel rewarded all the way at the end when her husband thanks me for saving his family.



I despised Loghain, but deep down inside I have equal parts of pity and respect for him. He was a great man who really couldn't see how far he had fallen. I think of him as a serious warning for all great heroes.

[zombieapocalypso]

5.  Ser Cauthrien - dump the torch in Lake Calenhad already woman!!!  Loghain's an Orlesian-fearing turd who's stuck living in the past, and he's still not over Rowan, so cut the freakin' loyalty crap and hurry up and fall on my soilder's bane laced dagger.

4.  Arl Howe - I LURRRRV Tim Curry, he's just always so gaurenteed to make me hate his character and Howe was no exception.  My HNF couldn't wait to go all princess stabity-stabity kill-kill on him, and it was so satisfying to deal the death blow.  I felt like Inigo killing Count Reugan!

3.  Alistair flat out refusing to rule along side w/ my CEF, especially after he tells her that he wants to be with her especially because she is an elf!!!!  And the dumping conversation after the landsmeet, just infuriated me.  You dopey, lampost-licking, cheese-eating, templarette!!!! How could you do that to her, and in front of everyone?!?!?!  I would have loved a way to address that conversation after the fact, similarly to how you can go down the angry dialogue tree after he forgot to tell you he's a royal bastard.  Just so you could tell him something along the lines of "do you realize EVERYTHING I've done to put you where you are?!?!?"  - That combined with his first reaction to being made king, post-hardening, in the landsmeet, are you really surprised?  Did you honestly think that we weren't going that way after all the conversations we've had about this??? 

2. Isolde . . . I know it's been said but Teghaaaaaaaaan!!! It's my worst nightmare (might have something to do with being raise by a french speaking mother with an insanely similar accent) but I just cringe whenever she speaks.  I end up esc'ing through all her dialogue just to not hear her voice.  That and she's made some incredibly bad decisions, I almost feel bad for Eamon and Connor.
1. Anora - Has anyone developed a "slap Anora" mod yet?  That would be so satisfying.  The whole backstabing b*tch thing at the Palace really irked me. But what really made me want to headbutt kittens was how after I persuaded her to marry and rule w/ Alistair she still acts like she should be chosen as sole ruler at the Landsmeet.  On every one of my playthroughs I've had to remind myself over and over again that she "is her father's daughter."

[ciaweth]

See, I have no trouble with "farmgirls" wanting to be Queen. In fact, if we'd had a Human Commoner origin, there'd be a crapload of clamor on these very forums if there were no ending in which the PC could become King or Queen. I still say Anora gets punished for being an ambitious female, when she's no worse than the men around her.

[Riona45]

Daewan wrote...


Anora. Jumped up little farmgirl trying to be a Queen.

How so?  Even if you won't accept Loghain's enoblement as valid (I don't see why, though), Anora's mother was no doubt a noblewoman, she was betrothed to Cailan, a prince, from a very young age, and, according to Eamon, was given the best education Maric's money could buy.  Considering all that, I don't understand why some people say she's "just some commoner"--whether you like her or not, that's clearly not the case.

Modifié par Riona45, 01 février 2010 - 06:23 .

[melkathi]

Lady Catastrophe wrote...

This.
I liked Eamon as a character before he started constantly blabbering on about how important it was for Alistair to become King.Preserving a bloodline as old as the Theirin's is all well and good,but to obsessively try and talk you into supporting Alistair's claim to the throne at the landsmeet (while he's standing right next to the two of you) is ridiculous,considering the fact that Alistair had been raised to believe he would never be in line for the throne or even worthy of it.

Alistair had to be brought up that way. He was the illegitimate son of the king. If he was brought up a different way, he might have gotten ideas in his heads of usurping Cailan. He could have been used in schemes to grab power (which isn't too different to what Eamon does in the end). Eamon did what was best for Cailan, who's blood was far bluer. Noone expected Cailan to die abandoned on the battlefield, fighting darkspawn. In the political game Eamon, Loghain and the rest of the court play, Alistair's upbringing was the nice alternative to drowning the child after birth.
Or that's the way I see it anyway.

Sandtigress wrote...

That none of my party cared all that much when Alistair broke it off to be king. Gee guys, thanks for caring. :-P

I so agree with you on this. He breaks up with you in front of the whole party and all of those who'd gossip before suddenly say nothing.
At least dog should have ran up and growled threatening at him.

Sandtigress wrote...

Goldanna. I hate her too. What a harpy! Here's poor Alistair who just
wants a family to love him, and he gets her. Poor guy. It was very
satisfying when my City elf said that someone should cut her tongue
out. Too bad Alistair dragged her off, I would have totally done it!

I don't understand the Goldanna hate. Her mother died during childbirth. Suddenly she was left alone. She was given a sovereign and thrown out of the castle to fend for herself. And she was still a child herself then. Is it so unreasonable for her to feel resentment and be bitter?
She is not the relative who suddenly appears on your doorstep because you are doing well. Alistair suddenly apears on her doorstep, in shiny armor, part of a prestigious order and expects everything to be perfect. Well, tough, nothing is perfect. She had a hard life, which she was left to face on her own without any help.
So Alistair got send to the chantry when he was ten. Lost his family and everything. Well at least he still had food and a bed. Goldanna lost everything and wasn't so lucky to get all that.
So life hardened her. Well, her life was one that would harden a person. And even poor as she is, she was extremly lucky to end up working as a washerwoman. Many orphans would not live to be her age with a job and a family.
If anything, the encounter shows how naive, innocent and removed from reality Alistair can be. Why should she welcome him with open arms? At best, he is simply a stranger she never met.

[Riona45]

ciaweth wrote...
I still say Anora gets punished for being an ambitious female, when she's no worse than the men around her.

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

[Cuddlezarro]

Riona45 wrote...

Daewan wrote...


Anora. Jumped up little farmgirl trying to be a Queen.

How so?  Even if you won't accept Loghain's enoblement as valid (I don't see why, though), Anora's mother was no doubt a noblewoman, she was betrothed to Cailan, a prince, from a very young age, and, according to Eamon, was given the best education Maric's money could buy.  Considering all that, I don't understand why some people say she's "just some commoner"--whether you like her or not, that's clearly not the case.

Anoras mother was actually a commoner

you find this out if you recruit loghain

[Sandtigress]

melkathi wrote...

I don't understand the Goldanna hate.

The answer is simple, of course.  We are Alistair fangirls, and therefore when anyone makes Alistair want to cry, we go Princess Stabbity on them.