246 réponses à ce sujet

[pepe5454]

I think it would be great after reluctantly letting Al kill logain if you had a conversation option after you find out about the ritual a sarcastic "Gee it would be kinda handy to have another grey warden right about now maybe one that we didn't like so much and probably deserves whats coming don't you tink Alistair?"

[Freckles04]

melkathi wrote...

I don't understand the Goldanna hate. Her mother died during childbirth. Suddenly she was left alone. She was given a sovereign and thrown out of the castle to fend for herself. And she was still a child herself then. Is it so unreasonable for her to feel resentment and be bitter?
She is not the relative who suddenly appears on your doorstep because you are doing well. Alistair suddenly apears on her doorstep, in shiny armor, part of a prestigious order and expects everything to be perfect. Well, tough, nothing is perfect. She had a hard life, which she was left to face on her own without any help.
So Alistair got send to the chantry when he was ten. Lost his family and everything. Well at least he still had food and a bed. Goldanna lost everything and wasn't so lucky to get all that.
So life hardened her. Well, her life was one that would harden a person. And even poor as she is, she was extremly lucky to end up working as a washerwoman. Many orphans would not live to be her age with a job and a family.
If anything, the encounter shows how naive, innocent and removed from reality Alistair can be. Why should she welcome him with open arms? At best, he is simply a stranger she never met.

You know what? This is a really good point. I still can't stand her, but you're right...even with Goldanna, there are shades of grey.

These boards are awesome.

[Freckles04]

pepe5454 wrote...

I think it would be great after reluctantly letting Al kill logain if you had a conversation option after you find out about the ritual a sarcastic "Gee it would be kinda handy to have another grey warden right about now maybe one that we didn't like so much and probably deserves whats coming don't you tink Alistair?"

HA! Oh, oh this.

[melkathi]

Sandtigress wrote...

melkathi wrote...

I don't understand the Goldanna hate.

The answer is simple, of course.  We are Alistair fangirls, and therefore when anyone makes Alistair want to cry, we go Princess Stabbity on them.  

Aaah! An honest response

Guess I am lucky, noone makes Morrigan want to cry. So we Morrigan fanboys are hate-free :innocent:

[Madriker]

5. Isolde... the one and only character I genuinely love to make suffer...



4. Isolde... ditto.



3. Jowan... he was the only recurring character that literally made made grumble each time he made an appearance.



2. Alistair... have a real love/hate relationship with this guy. Overall he's a great character, but when he gets moody he's the worst. What really pissed me off was during my second game, he confronted me in camp after I killed Connor (and knocked Isolde the $%*# out). Alistair was the biggest self-righteous hypocrite during that conversation! He was the one that labeled Connor an abomination an' suggested we off him to begin with... /grumble grumble



1. Isolde... Connor, unfortunately, will never be spared again now that I know about the option to knock her out, lmao!



Anora, surprisingly, had no effect on me and, after interacting with him in camp and party, I grew to really like Loghain.

[Riona45]

Colenda wrote...



Anora's mother was a cabinet maker's daughter. Presumably a smoking hot one, since marrying so low doesn't seem like the most advantageous choice Loghain could have made. 

eta: cuddlezarro beat me to it

Didn't know that, thanks for the information.  However, I don't think that's enough to dispel the point that Anora's upbringing was a far cry from that of the average farmgirl/commoner in Ferelden.  Your typical farmgirl isn't the daughter of a Teryn (appointed by Maric), doesn't have a fantastic education, isn't betrothed to the prince of the realm.

[Darkannex]

1. Isolde. Been there/done that.
2. Anora. Been there/done that.
3. The sheer amount of locked chests with only a rogue able to open them (yes I know they can be modded, but STILL)
4. Duncan at the HN opening. I wanted to kick him in the shins.
5. Alistair at the Lansmeet. Yes. I have heard the arguments. I agree that it is a credit to his character that he storms out and throws a major hissy fit. But this is someone that we want to possibly make king? Hello? Throughout the entire game, he goes to great pains to make YOU the leader. You make the decisions, you are the one that has to get it all moving. He is the senior warden and dumps it on your shoulders. And then, when you make a decision that an even MORE senior Warden recommends (for the sheer design of fighting the Blight) he throws a tantrum. It was Alistair that told me at the beginning that Wardens were not necessarily heroes. He told me that they did what was needed to end the Blight, even some extreme measures.

I wish I had the option to slap him in the face and ask him if Duncan were there, what did he think HE would have done. He'd have snapped Loghain up before you could say "mamma".  

Whether Alistair considers it an honor or not - it's to fight the Blight. yes, he's a 'person' and has 'feelings' but we should be able to give him a reality hammer. 

But of course, at that point we're not given an option-it's one or the other. Just annoys me that Alistair put you in the fix to lead, and then when it all comes to the cusp where things are gelling- he has a baby moment.

Modifié par Darkannex, 01 février 2010 - 06:43 .

[Sandtigress]

Freckles04 wrote...

melkathi wrote...

I don't understand the Goldanna hate. Her mother died during childbirth. Suddenly she was left alone. She was given a sovereign and thrown out of the castle to fend for herself. And she was still a child herself then. Is it so unreasonable for her to feel resentment and be bitter?
She is not the relative who suddenly appears on your doorstep because you are doing well. Alistair suddenly apears on her doorstep, in shiny armor, part of a prestigious order and expects everything to be perfect. Well, tough, nothing is perfect. She had a hard life, which she was left to face on her own without any help.
So Alistair got send to the chantry when he was ten. Lost his family and everything. Well at least he still had food and a bed. Goldanna lost everything and wasn't so lucky to get all that.
So life hardened her. Well, her life was one that would harden a person. And even poor as she is, she was extremly lucky to end up working as a washerwoman. Many orphans would not live to be her age with a job and a family.
If anything, the encounter shows how naive, innocent and removed from reality Alistair can be. Why should she welcome him with open arms? At best, he is simply a stranger she never met.

You know what? This is a really good point. I still can't stand her, but you're right...even with Goldanna, there are shades of grey.

These boards are awesome.

Actually, what I can't stand about her is that none of that was Alistair's fault.  He was just as much a victim of circumstance as she was, for all that she doesn't know that he didn't live in the castle like a noble.  The least she could do is talk to him, but she kicks him out of the house and demands money of him, as if the only purpose of having a brother is to provide for her.

The initial resentment I could understand, its her response after you tell her that none of that was Alistair's fault and she still kicks you to the curb.  And she's not even the least bit appreciative of Alistair's offer to talk to whomever is necessary to see that she's helped out.  Granted, I've always done Goldanna early in the game and never had enough money to give her anything, so I don't know how differently that plays out.  Actually, I should know this later on in the week as my HNF gets to this point either just prior to or post Landsmeet.

In any case, Alistair was treated like crap while he grew up, but he's still a caring and kind man.  Goldanna didn't have it any better, maybe she had it a bit worse, but that doesn't mean she has to be a harpy about it.

Modifié par Sandtigress, 01 février 2010 - 06:40 .

[Riona45]

pepe5454 wrote...

I think it would be great after reluctantly letting Al kill logain if you had a conversation option after you find out about the ritual a sarcastic "Gee it would be kinda handy to have another grey warden right about now maybe one that we didn't like so much and probably deserves whats coming don't you tink Alistair?"

But as Dave Gaider keeps trying to explain--Alistair considers being a Grey Warden and dying for the sake of the kingdom as an honor that Loghain doesn't deserve, period.  You don't have to agree with that, but Alistair wouldn't be moved by your argument.

[Sandtigress]

Oh, and another Goldanna note. I want to slap her every time she says "You killed mother, you did." Ahem, that was his mother too... lol Okay, maybe I hate Goldanna more than I hate Anora. Or maybe they're tied.

[TUHD]

Note: you get to see Goldanna once. Anora, you're stuck with unless you find a way to somehow get her executed... and need to hear her awfull speeches.
So, no matter I dislike Goldanna, Anora gets a quick road as Archdemon-dinner if it would be up to me

Modifié par TUHD, 01 février 2010 - 06:46 .

[DianeLyn56]

Loghain - I have never and will never let him live. My hatred for him is the strongest. When Zevran talks about the pleasure of killing - there's no greater pleasure for me than killing Loghain at the Landsmeet. Howe comes close, but Loghain is number one.



Issolde and Goldanna - I really want to slap both of them, I really do! lol



Anora - I want an option to kill her, preferably right after her father at the Landsmeet.



Okay, that's enough rage for now.

[pepe5454]

Riona45 wrote...

pepe5454 wrote...

I think it would be great after reluctantly letting Al kill logain if you had a conversation option after you find out about the ritual a sarcastic "Gee it would be kinda handy to have another grey warden right about now maybe one that we didn't like so much and probably deserves whats coming don't you tink Alistair?"

But as Dave Gaider keeps trying to explain--Alistair considers being a Grey Warden and dying for the sake of the kingdom as an honor that Loghain doesn't deserve, period.  You don't have to agree with that, but Alistair wouldn't be moved by your argument.

Heh not really arguing just wanted a sarcastic option =P  "Well you just killed off any chance we both had of getting out of this alive now go sleep with the swamp witch.  It's about time you two got it over with anyways you've been flirting this last year and the rest of us would rather you just got it over with =P"

I know I know Rhiordan is still around but I wanted a snarky comment still =P

[Chas1024]

melkathi wrote...
Guess I am lucky, noone makes Morrigan want to cry. So we Morrigan fanboys are hate-free :innocent:

Her mother did but we get to kill her so that's alright.

[Riona45]

I understand Goldanna's bitterness but don't care for her "you owe me" attitude. I feel less and less sorry for her the more I think about her, actually. I was glad I had no money to spare when I visited--as far as I'm concerned, it would have been a waste.

[Lady Catastrophe]

Riona45 wrote...
PS:  Can't say I was overly moved by the "preserving the bloodline" argument either...just because you were created when the "right" sperm met the "right" egg doesn't mean you will make a great ruler.

I was pretty ticked off at the fact that Eamon sent Alistair away to the Chantry simply because Isolde cared too much about what people were whispering behind her back.And speaking to him properly before the landsmeet destroyed any respect that I and my City Elf had left for him.He comes across as very self-serving.

[le_cygne]

Honorable Mention: Isolde, who falls off the list because she's willing to sacrifice herself to atone for her mistakes.



5. Alistair's ineffectualness. So we have to save the world? Great, so how about we take some initiative instead of whining about how tough you've had it, and how you can't cope with responsibility? (I love the character as a character, and I love that he's clearly a good man, but if I were trying to stop the Blight with Alistair as my right hand man I would likely die of frustration.)

4. Anora's betrayal at the Landsmeet. Made all the more shocking for me because I didn't know about it, and it didn't happen until my third playthrough.

3. Loghain turning to slavery to fatten his coffers. Up until this point, his actions were paranoiac and overboard but arguably justifiable. This is where he definitively crossed the line. (One presumes the timing of this discovery coincides with the Landsmeet for just this purpose, of course. And it works.)

2. Branka's obsession turning her into a complete monster.

1. Vaughan. By far. Nothing in a video game has given me as strong of an emotional response. I don't care how many atrocities Villain X has committed or how many worlds Demon Y has destroyed. Vaughan is a creepily realistic version of the kind of uncaring animal who will stomp out the tiniest speck of happiness for his own base pleasure.



Fantastic writing on all of the above.



Things I liked that made other people's hate lists?

-Alistair finally growing a spine at the Landsmeet. Agree with him or not, he's finally taking some initiative.

-Ser Cauthrien. She's pretty much the Warden to Loghain's Duncan. Fantastic character for such a minor player.

[Riona45]

le_cygne wrote...

5. Alistair's ineffectualness. So we have to save the world? Great, so how about we take some initiative instead of whining about how tough you've had it, and how you can't cope with responsibility? (I love the character as a character, and I love that he's clearly a good man, but if I were trying to stop the Blight with Alistair as my right hand man I would likely die of frustration.)

To be fair, in one of his romance dialogues (I think the rose dialogue), he acknowledges that he's been doing a lot of complaining when you haven't had the best time of it, either.

[melkathi]

Sandtigress wrote...

Actually, what I can't stand about her is that none of that was Alistair's fault.

Though in her eyes it is his fault. Of course, was she to sit down calmly and think about it reasonably, she'd realize it wasn't. But she was a child who lost everything. Why? Because her mother died giving birth to Alistair. Her resentment might not be reasonable, but it is very real. Maybe in time she would be able to work out this issue. But when Alistair and the Player drop in out of the blue, she is faced with probably the worst part of her life, completly out of the bue.
I am not saying Goldana is a good person. We do not see enough of her to know.

Also I don't think it's right to say that maybe she had it a bit worse. Alistair grew up unloved, after being send to the chantry. Goldana grew up unloved after their mother died, but also was constantly faced with the threat of hunger, the need to find a roof over her head.
If I was to rate tragic childhoods, my list would be:

Lanaya - parents slaughtered by bandits and her kept as a slave by them.

Zevran - orphaned, bought by the crows at a young age and tought from a young age to murder. Pretty similar background really to child soldiers in the real world.

Then comes a big gap and Goldana, who lived the life that Ilona's child in the Alienage is destined to live, or the orphan boy in Lotherin if he was evacuated before the darkspawn attacked.

After her (quite a bit lower on the ladder) I'd put Alistair, who might have been miserable (and obviously orphaned) but at least never had to worry about making it through the day.

Then, at the bottom comes Leliana, orphaned but at least brought up in a noble household the way Alistair would have been hadn't he been send of to the Chantry.

Of course when it comes to tragic lives in general, not just childhoods, Alistair drops way below Leliana.

[Addai]

Alistair also pushes YOU early on if, say, at Flemeth's hut you balk about trying to save the world on your own. He just doesn't have a strong opinion on how to go about it, so long as you are generally on the heroic path.

[melkathi]

le_cygne wrote...

-Ser Cauthrien. She's pretty much the Warden to Loghain's Duncan. Fantastic character for such a minor player.

I disagree.
She's more Alistair to Loghain's Duncan. The Warden does not blindly hero worship Duncan... or at least can be played not doing so. Ser Cauthrien forces herself to turn a blind eye to everything Loghain does that isn't right. Alistair ignores everything Duncan does that isn't right (see execution of Ser Jory).

[Patriciachr34]

David Gaider wrote...

Zecele wrote...
2. Alistair at the Landsmeet. It's been said, but I hate his reaction to wanting to induct Loghain into the Grey Wardens. To correct a poster further upthread though you do not know at the landsmeet that a Grey Warden has to die to kill the archdemon. You find that out the night after the landsmeet (because Loghain has to be an option for Morrigan to sleep with).

Indeed. You also don't know at that point that when you face the Archdemon it will be just the Wardens at hand, before reinforcements will arrive. Loghain could conceivably die in battle, yes, but so could the player or anyone else -- you have no idea that a sacrifice is required.

Would it be more convenient to know? Sure. But you don't. If you were to say to Alistair that you intend for Loghain to die somehow I'm pretty sure that Alistair would say that Loghain should die right there, paying for his crimes. Dying honorably, fighting for his country, is not something Alistair thinks Loghain deserves. The idea that players get annoyed because they can't arrange matters to suit the out-of-game knowledge they have about the sacrifice is a bit baffling. There are reasons to think Loghain might be useful, as well as reasons to think that Alistair is being a big baby, but suggesting that Alistair should trust that Loghain should be allowed to redeem himself by dying as a Grey Warden performing an act you don't even know is necessary yet does not really hold water.

That said, it's fun to see people get so emotional about it.

I have to agree with Mr. Gaider on this one.  Personally, I have never been able to let Loghain live.  One thing prevents me, regicide.  If duty and honor are truly the mainstay of Ferelden society then Loghain has abandoned both when he allows Cailan to die in battle.  He is lying both to the nobles at the Landsmeet and to himself when he proclaims that he has done what he has done for the Ferelden's benefit.  Loghain himself recognizes the truth of the matter when you proclaim he must die.  At this point he knows he really has gone too far.

That being said, my top 5 most emotional moments

1. Being dumped by Alistair on my first play through.  I was so depressed, that I sacraficed myself on the arch demon.  Then, after not being able to sleep, I got up at two in the morning and started over at the landsmeet, siding with Anora and ending up with Alistair.  Even then, I actually ended up deleting this character and started the whole game over.

2. The rage I felt when I confronted Arle Howe was astounding even for me.  I've never truly wanted to kill someone so badly.  I'm glad he's just made up of pixel's. 

3. Allowing Alistair to sleep with Morrigan.  This was one of the most difficult moral choices I had to make.  As a one of three existing grey wardens in all of Ferelden I found that myself deciding that this ritual was necessary to ensure that there were enough warden's left to "mop up" the hordes that would be roaming once the arch demon was dead.  Plus, there was immense amounts of guilt for my own personal need to keep my love alive was a bit hard to deal with (and still is).

4. As a dwarf commoner, who to side with Harrowmont or Behelen.  If I side with Harrowmont, I know my sister will never speak to me, but based on what I have found out about the deceitfulness of Behlen, I do not know for certain that he will keep his word to supply the armies we need as grey warden's.  I basically have to choose between my family's happiness and my duty as a grey warden.  I had to take a long walk and think about this one.

5. This one is a tie between being dumped by Gorim as a dwarf noble and being betrayed by Leske as a dwarf commoner.  Both left me equally stunned.

Oddly enough, I have no problems with Anora.  She is after all a professional politician who has held great amounts of power.  I expect her to be decietful when betrayed.  However, she can be a powerfull ally as long as our goals run parallel.  This makes her the perfect candidate to rule.  As the the great poet said, "Heavy is the head that wears the crown."