246 réponses à ce sujet

[le_cygne]

melkathi wrote...

le_cygne wrote...

-Ser Cauthrien. She's pretty much the Warden to Loghain's Duncan. Fantastic character for such a minor player.

I disagree.
She's more Alistair to Loghain's Duncan. The Warden does not blindly hero worship Duncan... or at least can be played not doing so. Ser Cauthrien forces herself to turn a blind eye to everything Loghain does that isn't right. Alistair ignores everything Duncan does that isn't right (see execution of Ser Jory).

Good call. You're absolutely right (unless the Warden's being played that way, as you say).

To her credit, though, she can potentially be convinced that Loghain is wrong, even if she's been blind until that point. And like Cauthrien with Loghain, the PC (and Alistair) are basically taking what the Wardens say at face value without any personal knowledge. If Loghain had been right, and Orlais had been the real threat instead of the Blight (recalling that the Archdemon hasn't shown up yet), it's easy for me to imagine Cauthrien as one of the heroes.

[Addai]

melkathi wrote...

le_cygne wrote...

-Ser Cauthrien. She's pretty much the Warden to Loghain's Duncan. Fantastic character for such a minor player.

I disagree.
She's more Alistair to Loghain's Duncan. The Warden does not blindly hero worship Duncan... or at least can be played not doing so. Ser Cauthrien forces herself to turn a blind eye to everything Loghain does that isn't right. Alistair ignores everything Duncan does that isn't right (see execution of Ser Jory).

The thing that always gets me with Cauthrien is her denigrating comments about you and Alistair, she being a commoner herself who clawed her way up the ranks through skill and grit, and her hero Loghain the very same.  She of all people tells me I'm a cur and shouldn't speak when my betters are talking?  Tells Alistair that he sullies the Landsmeet?  It makes her a tragic figure, however.  How soon they forget.

[melkathi]

Addai67 wrote...

The thing that always gets me with Cauthrien is her denigrating comments about you and Alistair, she being a commoner herself who clawed her way up the ranks through skill and grit, and her hero Loghain the very same.  She of all people tells me I'm a cur and shouldn't speak when my betters are talking?  Tells Alistair that he sullies the Landsmeet?  It makes her a tragic figure, however.  How soon they forget.

Especially when playing a human noble, her comment would normaly be a one way ticket to Fort Drakon, since you are her better by so much it isn't even funny

[Addai]

melkathi wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The thing that always gets me with Cauthrien is her denigrating comments about you and Alistair, she being a commoner herself who clawed her way up the ranks through skill and grit, and her hero Loghain the very same.  She of all people tells me I'm a cur and shouldn't speak when my betters are talking?  Tells Alistair that he sullies the Landsmeet?  It makes her a tragic figure, however.  How soon they forget.

Especially when playing a human noble, her comment would normaly be a one way ticket to Fort Drakon, since you are her better by so much it isn't even funny

I believe the dialogue is different for a human noble.  That's what she tells you as an elf, however.

[le_cygne]

melkathi wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The thing that always gets me with Cauthrien is her denigrating comments about you and Alistair, she being a commoner herself who clawed her way up the ranks through skill and grit, and her hero Loghain the very same.  She of all people tells me I'm a cur and shouldn't speak when my betters are talking?  Tells Alistair that he sullies the Landsmeet?  It makes her a tragic figure, however.  How soon they forget.

Especially when playing a human noble, her comment would normaly be a one way ticket to Fort Drakon, since you are her better by so much it isn't even funny

I may be biased insofar as my city elf essentially threatened to kill Loghain where he stood. :innocent:

[Freckles04]

Addai67 wrote...

melkathi wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The thing that always gets me with Cauthrien is her denigrating comments about you and Alistair, she being a commoner herself who clawed her way up the ranks through skill and grit, and her hero Loghain the very same.  She of all people tells me I'm a cur and shouldn't speak when my betters are talking?  Tells Alistair that he sullies the Landsmeet?  It makes her a tragic figure, however.  How soon they forget.

Especially when playing a human noble, her comment would normaly be a one way ticket to Fort Drakon, since you are her better by so much it isn't even funny

I believe the dialogue is different for a human noble.  That's what she tells you as an elf, however.

It depends on what dialogue choices you make. My FHN was stunned to hear her tell me to shut up as my betters were talking. Um...the only "better" to me here is Alistair, since he's the rightful king.

Where were my swords during that cutscene, dammit! I could have make the Landsmeet a moot point.

[MaxQuartiroli]

So let me know... I am the only one who loves Anora??? I love her strong character and I was so happy to give her the crown... When troops are ready to march on Denerim her speech made me nearly cry.. I played all campaign as lawful good character but when I have to choose between her and Alistair I gave her the crown with no doubt... sorry for Alistair... but to me it was the right thing to do,...



Concerning Ser Cauthrien she is only a soldier.. She may knows what happened.. but her duties are just complaining with Loghain's order... And if you don't fight her at Howe's home before the Landsmeet she make a GREAT act when she give away



One last thing... I spared Loghain (ok... I usally spared everybody, except the slave driver in Elves Enclave at Denerim) and if you usually spare people giving them the opportujnity to expiate for their guilties you would not find so difficult spare him too... Everybody asks you to spare him except Alistair..

[Riona45]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

So let me know... I am the only one who loves Anora???

No you are not the only one who likes/loves her.

Am I the only one who hates it when people ask if they're the "only one who [x]?"

Modifié par Riona45, 01 février 2010 - 08:23 .

[Patriciachr34]

Colenda wrote...

Patriciachr34 wrote...


Oddly enough, I have no problems with Anora.  She is after all a professional politician who has held great amounts of power.  I expect her to be decietful when betrayed.  However, she can be a powerfull ally as long as our goals run parallel.  This makes her the perfect candidate to rule.  As the the great poet said, "Heavy is the head that wears the crown." 

"Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown." Oddly enough, the character who spoke those lines was a somewhat successful regicide - or at any right, was heavily implicated in the regicide of a king who broke his own laws. /retreats back into her pedantic inner nerd-land

I live in pendantic inner nerd-land.

[le_cygne]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

So let me know... I am the only one who loves Anora??? I love her strong character and I was so happy to give her the crown.

I think Anora's great, too. In fact, it's because I liked her so much on my first two playthroughs that I found her betrayal (on my third) so shocking.

[LightSabres]

zombieapocalypso wrote...
1. Anora - Has anyone developed a "slap Anora" mod yet?  That would be so satisfying.  The whole backstabing b*tch thing at the Palace really irked me. But what really made me want to headbutt kittens was how after I persuaded her to marry and rule w/ Alistair she still acts like she should be chosen as sole ruler at the Landsmeet.  On every one of my playthroughs I've had to remind myself over and over again that she "is her father's daughter."

This always makes me laugh when I see people talk about her back-stabbing you in the middle of the rescue.  Keep in mind - If you mention her to Ser Cauthrien then you just backstabbed her first!  LOL!  She tells you point blank she needs to sneak out without anyone knowing - that's why she's in the Guards uniform in the first place!

Not to say she ISN'T a backstabber - she obviously power hungry
(although a different kind of power than Morrigan craves) and willing
to step on people to get ahead but that's because she believes (right
or wrong) that she's the best thing for Ferelden.  Just like her
father.  Eamon does warn you how much like her father she is.

[Addai]

I don't hate Anora. Many of my characters have had grudging respect for her, and she is a reasonably good ruler and person. She is, however, Loghain's daughter in every respect- a strategist, manipulative, and capable of the worst betrayal if it advances her goals. Eamon gives you the low-down on her if you're paying attention- she was one step ahead of Cailan, with the batter of eyelashes, and those eyelashes are going a mile a minute towards you, too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cailan is the only person that made me want to heabutt a kitten.

[Zecele]

Indeed. You also don't know at that point that when you face the Archdemon it will be just the Wardens at hand, before reinforcements will arrive. Loghain could conceivably die in battle, yes, but so could the player or anyone else -- you have no idea that a sacrifice is required.

Would it be more convenient to know? Sure. But you don't. If you were to say to Alistair that you intend for Loghain to die somehow I'm pretty sure that Alistair would say that Loghain should die right there, paying for his crimes. Dying honorably, fighting for his country, is not something Alistair thinks Loghain deserves. The idea that players get annoyed because they can't arrange matters to suit the out-of-game knowledge they have about the sacrifice is a bit baffling. There are reasons to think Loghain might be useful, as well as reasons to think that Alistair is being a big baby, but suggesting that Alistair should trust that Loghain should be allowed to redeem himself by dying as a Grey Warden performing an act you don't even know is necessary yet does not really hold water.

Just for the record none of that is my reasoning for not liking Alistair's reaction.  I felt the need to say that since you were quoting me (even though I got the impression you were speaking to others) as I didn't really explain what it was I didn't like about Alistairs reaction, simply that I didn't .

I agree with you completely that using foreknowledge to condemn Al's reaction is silly.

My problem with Al's reaction is....well it's kind of complicated but it has nothing to do with any meta-game knowledge.  Not the thread to elaborate in, however.

[Nonvita]

melkathi wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The thing that always gets me with Cauthrien is her denigrating comments about you and Alistair, she being a commoner herself who clawed her way up the ranks through skill and grit, and her hero Loghain the very same.  She of all people tells me I'm a cur and shouldn't speak when my betters are talking?  Tells Alistair that he sullies the Landsmeet?  It makes her a tragic figure, however.  How soon they forget.

Especially when playing a human noble, her comment would normaly be a one way ticket to Fort Drakon, since you are her better by so much it isn't even funny

I'm really growing to dislike her more and more. First time through it was just "Get out of my way," and persuaded her into stepping down, but I know my HN won't be so kindly this time...

My top 5:

1. Howe. Even without being an HN, he's a bastard who is in charge of many of the terrible things Loghain does. As an HN, he's just the biggest piece of slime there is- I care way more about wiping that sneer off his face with his own blood than with taking care of the darkspawn invasion.

2. Vaughn- He's just completely and absolutely disgusting.

3. Isolde- I can't stand her, I just really can't. She's not a bad person, she's just dumb, in the way that I hate. Yeah, I understand it's terrible to imagine sending your son off to the circle to be raised in such an oppressive fashion, but to go hiring a renegade blood mage to teach him? And to realize he's got a demon controlling him and still act that dumb? Yeah, that I can't stand. Not to mention how annoying she is to elves, and how she treated Alistair like dirt (even if some of that is understandable).

4. The alienage- The fact that I can't get into it for nearly the entire game to find out what happened to my family, even after incriminating myself in the hopes everyone would be ok. And the fact that once it reopens it turns out to be even more of a cesspool of violence and corruption than before, with SLAVE trading to boot. CEs just don't get any breaks...

5. Orzammar- The fact we even have to deal with the political BS going on there. The fact that both the candidates are equally despicable, but they're the only ones we have. The fact they send you out to do all their dirty work (including several things I was opposed to doing) just to make it all the easier for them to become King. The fact I chose Harrowmont the first go-around because, after talking to everyone I could find, someone said he'd be better to the lower castes, and then to find out he couldn't care less about changing the caste system and that he just screws things up more.


And honorable mentions:
-Alistair for sacrificing himself despite me repeatedly saying I would do it.

-Duncan for his right of conscription. Yeah I realize it's what makes the plot go round, but I've never had a character who was that eager to join the Wardens, and it always frustrates me regardless of the obvious necessity.

[Terra_Ex]

Patriciachr34 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Zecele wrote...
2. Alistair at the Landsmeet. It's been said, but I hate his reaction to wanting to induct Loghain into the Grey Wardens. To correct a poster further upthread though you do not know at the landsmeet that a Grey Warden has to die to kill the archdemon. You find that out the night after the landsmeet (because Loghain has to be an option for Morrigan to sleep with).

Indeed. You also don't know at that point that when you face the Archdemon it will be just the Wardens at hand, before reinforcements will arrive. Loghain could conceivably die in battle, yes, but so could the player or anyone else -- you have no idea that a sacrifice is required.

Would it be more convenient to know? Sure. But you don't. If you were to say to Alistair that you intend for Loghain to die somehow I'm pretty sure that Alistair would say that Loghain should die right there, paying for his crimes. Dying honorably, fighting for his country, is not something Alistair thinks Loghain deserves. The idea that players get annoyed because they can't arrange matters to suit the out-of-game knowledge they have about the sacrifice is a bit baffling. There are reasons to think Loghain might be useful, as well as reasons to think that Alistair is being a big baby, but suggesting that Alistair should trust that Loghain should be allowed to redeem himself by dying as a Grey Warden performing an act you don't even know is necessary yet does not really hold water.

That said, it's fun to see people get so emotional about it.

I have to agree with Mr. Gaider on this one.  Personally, I have never been able to let Loghain live.  One thing prevents me, regicide.  If duty and honor are truly the mainstay of Ferelden society then Loghain has abandoned both when he allows Cailan to die in battle.  He is lying both to the nobles at the Landsmeet and to himself when he proclaims that he has done what he has done for the Ferelden's benefit.  Loghain himself recognizes the truth of the matter when you proclaim he must die.  At this point he knows he really has gone too far.

But surely it depends on the kind of PC you are RPing. My PC naturally did not know at the time of the method of killing the Archdemon, yet being the cunning individual that he was, had sufficient foresight to see that a war veteran & master tactician such as Loghain would be more valuable alive in the battle to come. My PC's initial plan at this moment was to use him, then, after felling the archdemon, administer justice leaving his body amidst the darkspawn as he did with Cailan (Loghain's recent activities with elven slaves had pretty much sealed the deal on that). There would be no honour in such a death, at least in my eyes and is a perfectly viable double cross option that could've been in the game.

[SinYang]

I love it how david ignores the joining ritual isnt a 100% success rate for Loghain - we know it has to be for game reasons, but what if.

I really am interesting in hearing what Alistair has to say after Loghain has dropped dead from a failed ritual by which point he has already left the warden's/party company?. I really think Alistair should have let this slide until the ritual was over I could understand the reaction then. Alistair knows the ritual can be deadly. Regardless of the ritual result Alistair was missing from battle cutscenes, infact imagine him taking Riordan's cutscene attempting to go after archdemon alone after feeling betrayed by you. He would still be a Grey Warden then and earn some major kudos. Instead of a failed overly emotional ex-grey warden that he is.

I can respect Loghain for submiting to the warden's cause against the blight (for the greater good) with all characters except City elfs and perhaps dalish.

Also maybe Im playing a character that looks at the *big picture*, having more warden's makes alot of sense then regardless of plot points.

Its like the Ostagar cutscene, you couldnt possibly have seen personally from the character's viewpoint what Loghain did. Either you were battling darkspawn in the tower OR being rescued by flemeth at that time. Pretty sure thats reason you can ask morrigan "what happened?" intially.

On the topic, Vaughan was perhaps most personal and overly emotional experience in the game for me, there is no cutscenes, there is no guards carrying his action on your friend just him.

Result, I want to stick that gold he offers you down his throat and watch him die slowly.

Modifié par SinYang, 04 février 2010 - 05:38 .

[Riona45]

Nonvita wrote...
3. Isolde- I can't stand her, I just really can't. She's not a bad person, she's just dumb, in the way that I hate. Yeah, I understand it's terrible to imagine sending your son off to the circle to be raised in such an oppressive fashion, but to go hiring a renegade blood mage to teach him? And to realize he's got a demon controlling him and still act that dumb? Yeah, that I can't stand. Not to mention how annoying she is to elves, and how she treated Alistair like dirt (even if some of that is understandable).

What does she say to elves?

I personally don't understand why she was so snippy to Alistair...

[MireliA]

My top 5 in no particular order are:-

The scene with Cailan's body in RtO did disturbed me but it would make sense to use it as a trophy if you were darkspawn.

The scene when Queen Anora turns on you after you've rescued her - what a cow though she does make a better ruler than either of the half brothers - and I like Alistair .

Morrigan showing her true colours the night before the Archdemon slaying even though I knew it was coming.

Anything involving Arl Rendon Howe, a slimeball of the first degree - though that just shows what a great actor Tim Curry is. He plays bad guys so well .

And finally, Prince Bhelen turning on his sibling - I yelled at the monitor it irritated me so much.

Modifié par MireliA, 01 février 2010 - 09:03 .

[Nonvita]

Riona45 wrote...

Nonvita wrote...
3. Isolde- I can't stand her, I just really can't. She's not a bad person, she's just dumb, in the way that I hate. Yeah, I understand it's terrible to imagine sending your son off to the circle to be raised in such an oppressive fashion, but to go hiring a renegade blood mage to teach him? And to realize he's got a demon controlling him and still act that dumb? Yeah, that I can't stand. Not to mention how annoying she is to elves, and how she treated Alistair like dirt (even if some of that is understandable).

What does she say to elves?

I personally don't understand why she was so snippy to Alistair...

Eh, well, it's kind of a little subjective. I don't know that she actually says much beyond her typical "Who is this, TeaGANN?!" spiel. It's more the elf that pushes the point- with lines like, "Why, because I'm an elf?"
The thing is, she doesn't really have much of a comeback. Maybe that's because she's so flustered, but to my elf, who's used to being treated like crap by humans (especially nobles), she comes across as completely consumed by her own world and disparaging of anyone outside it.

Unfair to her? Perhaps... but even losing rep with Alistair doesn't stop me from killing her.

[Riona45]

Nonvita wrote...

Eh, well, it's kind of a little subjective. I don't know that she actually says much beyond her typical "Who is this, TeaGANN?!" spiel. It's more the elf that pushes the point- with lines like, "Why, because I'm an elf?"

Ah, I see.  That's understandable.

[Sandtigress]

melkathi wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

Actually, what I can't stand about her is that none of that was Alistair's fault.

Though in her eyes it is his fault. Of course, was she to sit down calmly and think about it reasonably, she'd realize it wasn't. But she was a child who lost everything. Why? Because her mother died giving birth to Alistair. Her resentment might not be reasonable, but it is very real. Maybe in time she would be able to work out this issue. But when Alistair and the Player drop in out of the blue, she is faced with probably the worst part of her life, completly out of the bue.
I am not saying Goldana is a good person. We do not see enough of her to know.

Also I don't think it's right to say that maybe she had it a bit worse. Alistair grew up unloved, after being send to the chantry. Goldana grew up unloved after their mother died, but also was constantly faced with the threat of hunger, the need to find a roof over her head.
If I was to rate tragic childhoods, my list would be:

Of course, we could argue back and forth on this all day, which is part of the fun. 

I don't think you can compare Alistair's being unloved to Goldanna's though.  Goldanna had no one to love her and so had to tough it alone.

Alistair grew up with the people around him who should have cared for him doing nothing of the sort.  From start to the present, he saw himself as being pushed aside as the bastard prince.  He describes himself, rather bitterly, to Leliana in one of their banters as the result of an "indiscreet man and a star-struck maid" and so sees even his conception as a loveless event.  Then he lives at Arl Eamon's castle, but sleeps in the hay, and is carted off to the Chantry when Eamon's bride doesn't like him to a life that he can't stand.  The only person who ever actually cared about him for being him was Duncan (and I think to some degree you can argue about how non-self-interested even Duncan's actions were given Alistair's possible heritage from the books).  And yet he can still say tha Arl Eamon is a good man, and that he doesn't blame him at all for what happened in the past.

The basic point is that Alistair is a good man with a forgiving heart.  Goldanna let bitterness take over her heart and won't let go of it.

[DPSSOC]

Riona45 wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

So let me know... I am the only one who loves Anora???

No you are not the only one who likes/loves her.

Am I the only one who hates it when people ask if they're the "only one who [x]?"

Probably not.  However in the spirit of the moment, am I the only one who plays this game with my toes?

5 Rage Moments

5. Not being able to sway Morrigan.  I was a silver tongued devil the whole game, I could have sold trees to the Dalish and rocks to the Dwarves but I can't convince the woman I love, and who seems to love me, to stay or let me come with her?  Come to think of that why aren't you given the option to offer that?  I mean she can still say no but why can't a male Warden say that he'll turn his back on everything and go with her.

4. Meeting Howe at Eamon's Estate.  I understand we're trying to be diplomatic but why can't I say to Howe as a HN, "I'm going to kill you Howe, but before that I'm going to make you watch as I murder your children, torture your wife, and burn your home to the ground."  Or something else to give the sense that he's vastly underestimated who he's messing with.

3. Eamon's "plan".  So we're going to pull a bastard out of our figuritive *** and just expect everyone to accept him as the new King?  How about this we've got an assassin who not only knows where Loghain is but has met with him before and could conceive of some reason to meet with him again.  Loghain's dead, crisis is over, we've got an army of dwarves, elves, and mages nobody is going to pick a fight with us.

2. Camp gossip.  I get conflicting romance interests addressing my romantic shenannigans, I'd be rather disappointed if they didn't, but how is it any of Alistair's or Wynne's business?  Alistair get's a pass as he's trying to be a friend and comrade in arms looking out for me, Wynne is trying to be my mother.  Too bad I'm on X Box and can't write/acquire a mod to say "Bite me you old bat"

1. Anora being locked in the tower.  Where's that newspaper my dog has not learned his lesson.  You do not imprison the daughter of the guy who tried to take over the kingdom, you execute her.  Bad Alistair, stupid, stupid Alistair.

[_Aine_]

Different moments depending on origin, sometimes depending on playthrough.



Vaughn. My first city elf playthrough when i killed him in the alienage, i got the beheading animation. It was captured as a screenshot for posterity and even though i deleted that character, that screenie stays. What a big doof that guy was. Ah to be rich, moronic and feel you are above the law...well, you arent above crime my dear. *stabbity stabbity*



Woman (elf) -talk. " Oh, I don't believe it, you are a woman(elf) but here you are!" I have the tainted blood of dark-spawn coursing through my veins, am one of very few to come and save their lice-ridden selves and they point out the obvious, that i am female (elf) . I am also well armed and not known to withhold judgement with my sword either. Relevance check?. This actually didn't bother me a bit until more than a few people said it to me and i had already done a playthough or two. Then I was like...wait a sec, why do they keep saying that??? Where is the " (Attack) Yes, and you ser, are dead. " option when you want it? lol I wish your companions piped up a bit more in these circumstances. like Morrigan would sit around and take that? i don't think so. Mostly that didn't bother me, except when they asked me for help in the same conversation tree. Pffft was that your unique way of saying please? I have several ways to demonstrate "no" if you are interested? *evil grin*



Eamon. Try as I might I can't get past not wanting to help him at the landsmeet. You got rid of Alistair because it suited your squishy life better, and now you want to bring him back close to your bosom because it will serve you better. What if I don't *want* to save him from the demon? (some of my characters do and some really don't!) and want to keep those ashes to try to find a way to save the grey wardens from their eternal fate??? He talks about alistair like he isn't there when discussing the landsmeet and Alistair in his typically puppy-dog way, always ready to serve for duty and forgive when he is kicked around because it is for "family" and "duty" and love....



Duncan @ human noble. My father is dying and you blackmail him? You could have let him die without THAT indignity, save my arse and then conscript me, instead of doing it like you did in front of a dying man. That was pretty doofish. Even with the beard.



Anora. There are parts of me that really feel sorry for Anora. But on a whole i dislike her politics FAR more than her fathers. At least Loghain has done something for Ferelden other than pick out one pretty dress. Not that Loghain picked out dresses.....



Honorable mentions:



Isolde. Somehow I think her choosing to die is once again her deciding to twist fate to suit her instead of just letting the child die and her have to live with the consequences of her actions. Connor is a child though, and its easier to kill the adult who made the decision than the child who had his decisions made for him. She still gets a fail for acting like a hero about it. It was her selfishness that set into motion that chain of events anyway just as she selfishly made sure her home was rid of Alistair years later. Karma much? Of course, that is where I stand after 7+ gothroughs with her.... I was far kinder initially



Howe is actually a fab villian. My complaint - his death seemed understated because it was surrounded with so much action and not as much pointed drama that it deserved. ' You mean he is dead? darnit! I wasnt done!!"



Although I havent done this end yet personally myself - Alistair being so black/white about "being accepted for who he is" and then dumping you because you are an elf/grey warden. Pardon me? Bring on the blood mages to raise Loghain from the dead and use my friend Alistair as energy. I allow you to kill our one chance to live without the ritual and you dump me because pointy ears and taint are bad? LOL Especially given everything, he of all people shouldn't be that way. One of these days I will force myself to do that just to see it.... *shakes fist* That's it - I'm on the boat with Sten, screw you Fereldan! lol



Gotta love a game that makes you care enough to yell at your screen. lol