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[Carodej]

errant_knight wrote...

Carodej wrote...

@errant_knight, the darkspawn must be stopped...whatever it takes. However vile his actions may be in making his discoveries, the past is past. If you were a Cousland, would you not use Starfang just because it used to belong to Arl Howe who used it to kill your parents? If the process required the deaths of innocents, I might agree with your point of view. But if it had just become a recipe of casting certain spells and darkspawn blood?

@TUHD, I know Avernus used blood magic to do this. What I don't know is if it will only work on someone with the ability to do magic, or possibly is something that is part of a blood magic spell/ritual than can only be done on one's self, or if it's something that a blood mage could do for any Grey Warden.

Well, you are certainly free to play being a grey warden as you wish. As am I. My belief is that Avernus went to far and has to die for his crimes in the same way that Loghain has to die. Luckily, Alistair agrees with me, so that wasn't a problem. Personally, I think there are limits to 'whatever it takes', or there's no appreciable difference between the wardens and the darkspawn. And no, I wouldn't use a blade that killed my parents, except to kill the bastard that did it. Then I'd throw it into the lava in the deep roads.

In any case, you say 'what if it had become'.... It doesn't matter what it becomes, it began with the torture and murder of the grey wardens who were trapped with him. That's unacceptable, to me.

Yes, indeed, one of the great things about this game is the many ways we can roleplay all the decisions in the game. 

Perhaps our major difference of opinion here is that I tend to base my actions more on probable futures.  Sure, the crimes Avernus committed are not something I would either forgive or forget.  But it was 200 years ago, and with only a few years left I don't think he is likely to commit similar crimes again.  Unlike, for instance, that pig Vaughan who committed horrible acts and if set free would surely do so again.

If I judged my companions on their past, I'd really only keep Alistair, Dog, and Wynne with me.  The rest are all basically murderers too.

And I also kill Loghain, but not because of what he did.  I just don't trust him.  He's proven to have very poor judgment on what is best for Ferelden as well as what means are best to achieve his goals.  He's also has political clout, adoration of the citizens of Ferelden, and a practically unshakeable belief that he is always right.  It would seem for too likely that circumstances would cause him to throw Ferelden in turmoil again because of some imagined Orlesian conspiracy.  I regret killing the misguided fool, but kill him I do.

[Terra_Ex]

errant_knight wrote...
Not , he comes up with nothing, but I suppose it could be a triggered option in future DLC.expansions. Even if Avernus was trying to find a positive thing for the entire world, most people would still find his actions evil.   And yeah, Avernus practiced the most vile kind of blood magic. There's no way Alistair would make use of something that came from that, and my PC wouldn't either.

Yeah, but its the world of DA, there really is no black and white when it comes to morality and sometimes sacrifices must be made. Iirc, amidst Avernus' ramblings, he does say that he believes he is close to isolating the power from the darkspawn blood (but then again, most mad scientists say that:) ), though obviously for gameplay reasons and this being the beginning of the franchise, I doubt we'll see any results anytime soon. I think the quesiton of the PC's mortality is one that could and should be raised in a future installment, though no doubt there will be some terrible price to pay if you take the self preservation option.

[maxernst]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Well, in a medieval society dying at 50 would not be viewed as a particularly premature death, unless magical healing significantly changes the equation. Many people (even nobles) died natural deaths before that, probably most were dead before 60 anyway. And if you're going to spending your life fighting the dark spawn, there's a good chance you wouldn't even make it that far.

In a medieval world... Not in a Fantasy world... Did you read Lord of the RingS? Do you remember King Elrund at what age died?

Do you mean Elrond?  He wasn't human.  And anyway, this isn't middle earth.  I don't see any evidence that people are particularly long lived in Ferelden.  The human noble doesn't seem to have living grandparents.  The parents of Leliana and Alistair are dead.  Morrigan's mother is alive, but she hardly counts as human.  There are very few adults in the game with living parents, let alone grandparents. The most senior nobles (in power and influence at least) in the kingdom are Loghain and Eammon, and judging by the age of their children, they're not all that old.  Wynne keeps talking about being close to the end of her life, but she really doesn't look more than 50 or so.  I'd say it probably isn't common to live past 60. 

[MaxQuartiroli]

maxernst wrote...

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Well, in a medieval society dying at 50 would not be viewed as a particularly premature death, unless magical healing significantly changes the equation. Many people (even nobles) died natural deaths before that, probably most were dead before 60 anyway. And if you're going to spending your life fighting the dark spawn, there's a good chance you wouldn't even make it that far.

In a medieval world... Not in a Fantasy world... Did you read Lord of the RingS? Do you remember King Elrund at what age died?

Do you mean Elrond?  He wasn't human.  And anyway, this isn't middle earth.  I don't see any evidence that people are particularly long lived in Ferelden.  The human noble doesn't seem to have living grandparents.  The parents of Leliana and Alistair are dead.  Morrigan's mother is alive, but she hardly counts as human.  There are very few adults in the game with living parents, let alone grandparents. The most senior nobles (in power and influence at least) in the kingdom are Loghain and Eammon, and judging by the age of their children, they're not all that old.  Wynne keeps talking about being close to the end of her life, but she really doesn't look more than 50 or so.  I'd say it probably isn't common to live past 60. 

My mistake.. I wanted to write "Aragorn".. Don't know why I wrote "Elrond".. Maybe the taint is already affecting me
Yeah.. for sure in medieval/fantasy society you have so much opportunity to die before 50.. also before 20... Wars, charesties, invasions, plagues.. it was very hard to reach the age of retirement still alive. But don't forget you are an hero... And in epic tales heroes become old and old or die sacrifying themselves for a big purpose.. I have never seen them die for a illness, a curse, or something similar that destroys slowly their body and their mind...

[NightmarezAbound]

fromt another thread a post I made with some minor changes.



what if, all the Grey Wardens that go into the Deep Roads for that last time. What if they turn to Darkspawn? and not the run of them mill Hurlock, Genlock, Ogre kind. but the new talking ones? what if Duncan or some other fallen Warden is the talking darkspawn seen in the trailer? Imagine that as your future, not only 30 years, but if you are not destroyed you become that which you have fought for most of your life? Afterall, think of say Ruck. He lived alone in the Deep Roads for 5 years, and we are talking a smith, not a warrior. And the darkspawn ignored him, because he stayed in the shadows and fed on the flesh of the Darkspawn, thereby consuming the taint. Now after 30 some years the nightmares get worse and you are drawn to the Deep Roads. Supposedly to die fighting the Darkspawn, but what if at that point the Darkspawn see you as one of their own?



What does 30 years of living with the taint do to you mentally and physically?



but this is just my twisted thought.



and after 30 years of knowing and living with the thought you're know what is going to kill you, you learn to accept it. I know this from my own life. when told you;'re going to die, you have initial reaction, then the anger and pain and then acceptance. a Warden has 30 years to accept his fate, give or take.

[MaxQuartiroli]

I understand you have already resigned yourself and you are going to accept your destiny after all... Am I wrong?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

Right.. These are your tastes.. so I believe It's right that you think so..
For me is different... I usually tend to play characters who deserve to live a normal life with friends and beloved after all their journeys

My human noble certainly thinks so. She never wanted to be a Warden, was forced into it under nefarious circumstances, and now that the blight is over, would like to have a life of her own once again. She is still quite young, and wants to live and do things with her life.

So, for some characters, getting "untainted" would be a desired end.

[guy-noir]

I didn't read all the posts and I know you guys talked about Avernus but don't know if you mentioned this. Wasn't Avernus A, 200 years old, B, a grey warden with the taint, and C, not a mutated talking darkspawn. You see I'm thinking that A, the taint has the possibility to be a blessing, B, it's going to possibly put me on equal ground with Morrigan/Flemeth and her baby/reincarnated-dragon-god, C is going to affect possible interactions with demons in the fade, D, may have something to do with the black city which the chantry probably lied about like Avernus insinuated, and E may enable me to E.A., prevent Flemeth from taking over Morrigan, and E.B., help make Morrigan immune to Flemeth's possession. I like the idea that the wardens might become evolved darkspawn that someone else mentioned, but didn't think it was the only possibility because of Avernus, and I really hope I can end the series getting together permanently with Morrigan. You see I'm of the opinion that Morrigan, when you meet ehr, is just going through a phase of her life that many people do, where everyone thinks there hot stuff when they're really idiots. She'll have to learn some lessons about life either because of Flemeth or that reincarnated dragon baby and she'll coming running back when she gets over herself.

[Gold Dragon]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...
My mistake.. I wanted to write "Aragorn".. Don't know why I wrote "Elrond".. Maybe the taint is already affecting me

While Unmistakably Human, Aragorn was of the Line of the Dun-adan (Elf name), Mortal men that were descended from those that were given Long, but still Mortal life, and in HIM it was unmingled with the blood of lesser men (like in Faramir).  3 times the length of a normal human lifespan was his birthright, and in the times of LotR, he was 87.

Still Not a very good comparison.

[MaxQuartiroli]

Well I agree that dying around 50 is not a bad age not only in a medieval society, but also in a fantasy society... However... I would prefer to die by something else than taint... or at least NOT to know that whatever will happened in my life my destiny is already signed...

[maxernst]

It may not be pleasant but it fits thematically with the game world very well. There is a price to be paid for power of any kind. Mages risk demonic posession and need Llyrium (as do Templars) which is addictive and makes people go mad...or they must shed blood. Look at the extreme measures characters like Uldred, Loghain, Branka and Caradin take for power. Nothing comes for free.

[Degrey Nightstalker]

The taint doesn't kill you in terms of a normal death it corrupts your flesh as it does all other life only much more slowly. Those who are corrupted at a faster rate lose their minds and become gouls, who follow the Darkspawn and ultimately die after a relatively short period. Grey Wardens go to the Deep Roads when their time comes, to die a fast death killing Darkspawn rather than allowing their bodies to under go the change that the taint has been working towards. If they live they change and if they do not go mad as the taint takes hold they become like the Darkspawn but different in that while their bodies are corrupt they retain their minds and are not part of the horde. While this opinion is based on the Calling, the Architect a Darkspawn who is not bound by the call of the old gods, and subject to the hord's primal desire to search endlessly for the Old God's in their prisons deep within the Deep Roads. He is literate and has spent his time searching for knowledge and a way to free his people from their primal urge to free the Old God's. The Architect in The Calling speeds up the progress of the taint in three Wardens as part of his master plan to end the Blights and to free the Darkspawn. Fiona has the taint speeded up slightly but after a year the taint has reverted back to ow she was before they entered the deep roads. This may of been due to the fact she had a child with Maric, or some other magic, but it was said that she may never have to under go the Calling as a result of this whole incident. The taint it seems can be controlled so that the ultimate corruption of the body doesn't have to be, but then again this may simply be a one off. Avernus as was stated earlier lived for 200 years with the use of blood magic so the corruption of the body by the taint is controllable.

[KurtCF]

It might be that a cure could be worse than the disease. Perhaps a mage becomes an abomination, or the warrior/rogue becomes a werewolf. The possessing entity might cleanse the host in order to cause more mayhem and death.

[darrylzero]

I also feel like the primary thing on my character's mind after killing the archdemon would be to get rid of the taint. The hope that he might prove useful in that regard is one major reason I spared Avernus. I don't mind if it turns out to be impossible, or if it ultimately comes at too great a cost, but I hope I can role play *trying* to get rid of the taint. In fact, I think veering a little to the dark side in pursuit of that obsession before finally making a big sacrifice would be an extremely satisfying narrative.



Folks interested should sign up: http://social.bioware.com/group/1320

[LadyVaJedi]

I haven't gotten StarFang from Arl Howe. It comes from the meteorite.

[SusanStoHelit]

You all seem to be talking in terms of either staying as you are and accepting your fate - or being 'cured' and removing the taint entirely.



I would suggest that you are all thinking far too narrowly, restricting yourselves to such a dichotomy. Why don't we search for a 'cure' that doesn't remove the taint? Instead, we want something that leaves the taint in us, so we are still able to sense the darkspawn and do our Warden thing, but that limits or, better still, negates the damage it does to us.



So, I want something that will isolate and nullify (not the right word, but the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet) the taint, without removing or destroying it as in a regular 'cure'.

[TUHD]

Starfang = meteorite. Moonlight (if I recall the swords OK) = Arl Howe.

Anyway... if they could 'cure' the nasty side effects while allowing you to keep the better parts (able to sense darkspawn etc) my characters (at least the most of them) would sign up for it. Only thing I don't know if my Dalish elves would agree with me...



*looks for cover against the arrows fired from his virtual characters*

[LadyVaJedi]

I got it when I took the metal shards to Wardens Keep and gave it to the blacksmith he made the sword.

[SusanStoHelit]

*sigh* The suggestion about Starfang and Howe was a metaphorical one. The poster simply meant that IF that was how one got it, would it be morally acceptable to keep it and use it under those circumstances. He said he would. The respondent said not. It was a discussion about the morality of using things acquired by nefarious means. It was not a statement of how and where one actually gets the sword ingame.

[LadyVaJedi]

Well I am sorry if I must misunderstood.

[errant_knight]

Oops, double post!!

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 février 2010 - 10:09 .

[errant_knight]

Carodej wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Carodej wrote...

@errant_knight, the darkspawn must be stopped...whatever it takes. However vile his actions may be in making his discoveries, the past is past. If you were a Cousland, would you not use Starfang just because it used to belong to Arl Howe who used it to kill your parents? If the process required the deaths of innocents, I might agree with your point of view. But if it had just become a recipe of casting certain spells and darkspawn blood?

@TUHD, I know Avernus used blood magic to do this. What I don't know is if it will only work on someone with the ability to do magic, or possibly is something that is part of a blood magic spell/ritual than can only be done on one's self, or if it's something that a blood mage could do for any Grey Warden.

Well, you are certainly free to play being a grey warden as you wish. As am I. My belief is that Avernus went to far and has to die for his crimes in the same way that Loghain has to die. Luckily, Alistair agrees with me, so that wasn't a problem. Personally, I think there are limits to 'whatever it takes', or there's no appreciable difference between the wardens and the darkspawn. And no, I wouldn't use a blade that killed my parents, except to kill the bastard that did it. Then I'd throw it into the lava in the deep roads.

In any case, you say 'what if it had become'.... It doesn't matter what it becomes, it began with the torture and murder of the grey wardens who were trapped with him. That's unacceptable, to me.

Yes, indeed, one of the great things about this game is the many ways we can roleplay all the decisions in the game. 

Perhaps our major difference of opinion here is that I tend to base my actions more on probable futures.  Sure, the crimes Avernus committed are not something I would either forgive or forget.  But it was 200 years ago, and with only a few years left I don't think he is likely to commit similar crimes again.  Unlike, for instance, that pig Vaughan who committed horrible acts and if set free would surely do so again.

If I judged my companions on their past, I'd really only keep Alistair, Dog, and Wynne with me.  The rest are all basically murderers too.

And I also kill Loghain, but not because of what he did.  I just don't trust him.  He's proven to have very poor judgment on what is best for Ferelden as well as what means are best to achieve his goals.  He's also has political clout, adoration of the citizens of Ferelden, and a practically unshakeable belief that he is always right.  It would seem for too likely that circumstances would cause him to throw Ferelden in turmoil again because of some imagined Orlesian conspiracy.  I regret killing the misguided fool, but kill him I do.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I'm looking at two thing: possibility for redemption (ie genuine remorse), and the level of evil of past acts themselves. Avernus is actually pretty easy as he has no remorse at all, nor does Loghain. And I agree with you about the companions. I judge them in much the same way. Leiliana and Sten get more point than Zevran, but I will never find them as admirable as Alistair or Wynne. Of course, I love my dog.

Terra_Ex wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Not , he comes up with nothing, but I suppose it could be a triggered option in future DLC.expansions. Even if Avernus was trying to find a positive thing for the entire world, most people would still find his actions evil.   And yeah, Avernus practiced the most vile kind of blood magic. There's no way Alistair would make use of something that came from that, and my PC wouldn't either.

Yeah, but its the world of DA, there really is no black and white when it comes to morality and sometimes sacrifices must be made. Iirc, amidst Avernus' ramblings, he does say that he believes he is close to isolating the power from the darkspawn blood (but then again, most mad scientists say that:) ), though obviously for gameplay reasons and this being the beginning of the franchise, I doubt we'll see any results anytime soon. I think the quesiton of the PC's mortality is one that could and should be raised in a future installment, though no doubt there will be some terrible price to pay if you take the self preservation option.

It depends entirely on the PC's notions of right and honor, but my PC didn't believe that anything but evil could come from such a tainted mind and such horrendous 'research'.

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 février 2010 - 10:00 .

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

Avernus is actually pretty easy as he has no remorse at all

Not quite true. If you have a high enough Coercion score, when you remonstrate with him about the evil of what he's done and say that some things just shouldn't be done, he does show some remorse. 'Coming from a Warden, that means something', he says. But you have to pass that persuasion check to get that response. Then you can still either choose to kill him in revenge, or tell him to conduct ethical research for the good of the wardens.

If I (or my pc, hehe) don't pass the persuade check, and he doesn't show remorse, I kill him. If I do pass it, he lives. :innocent:

[TheBlackBaron]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

You all seem to be talking in terms of either staying as you are and accepting your fate - or being 'cured' and removing the taint entirely.

I would suggest that you are all thinking far too narrowly, restricting yourselves to such a dichotomy. Why don't we search for a 'cure' that doesn't remove the taint? Instead, we want something that leaves the taint in us, so we are still able to sense the darkspawn and do our Warden thing, but that limits or, better still, negates the damage it does to us.

So, I want something that will isolate and nullify (not the right word, but the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet) the taint, without removing or destroying it as in a regular 'cure'.

This.

I'm not sure if this is really possible, and in the end you might end up in the Deep Roads anyway, but there's nothing wrong about looking for a way. I mean, depending on how things shake down you can subvert the rule that a Grey Warden needs to die to kill the Archdemon, why not try and subvert this as well? 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 06 février 2010 - 10:13 .

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Avernus is actually pretty easy as he has no remorse at all

Not quite true. If you have a high enough Coercion score, when you remonstrate with him about the evil of what he's done and say that some things just shouldn't be done, he does show some remorse. 'Coming from a Warden, that means something', he says. But you have to pass that persuasion check to get that response. Then you can still either choose to kill him in revenge, or tell him to conduct ethical research for the good of the wardens.

If I (or my pc, hehe) don't pass the persuade check, and he doesn't show remorse, I kill him. If I do pass it, he lives. :innocent:

That's interesting! Not enough to get me to spare him, I don't think, but interesting. Actually, in Avernus's case, I'm not sure there is enough remorse for that.... I haven't heard the dialogue, though. It might change my mind. Still, I have no problem killing the Maleficar in the tower and Avernus's crimes are much greater.