62 réponses à ce sujet

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

That's interesting! Not enough to get me to spare him, I don't think, but interesting. Actually, in Avernus's case, I'm not sure there is enough remorse for that.... I haven't heard the dialogue, though. It might change my mind. Still, I have no problem killing the Maleficar in the tower and Avernus's crimes are much greater.

Well, I compare him to someone like Zevran. I've spared him on all but one of my playthroughs, and he shows no remorse for killing people for money. Indeed, he says he enjoys it and doesn't want to give up being an assassin. He even has sex with this victims and kills them anyway.

Or Sten, who doesn't show remorse for killing the farmers. He admits that it was wrong, because he knew they weren't at fault, but remorse? No.

Now Avernus doesn't truly show remorse, he's not full of guilt for what he did, but he does admit (or that's the implication, anyway) that his actions were wrong, if you pass the check. You don't get the whole thing in text, it's another one of those cases of having to fill in the missing dialogue, but the implication is that if you're persuasive enough you can show him the error of his ways.

Is that enough for you to spare him? Well, that's a personal choice. I just wanted to point out, in case you didn't know, that Avernus can show remorse in the right circumstances - or at least, he can admit that his actions were wrong.

Edit: And, of course, Avernus would be a good candidate for coming up with the Neutralisation of the Taint Treatment - maybe working in conjunction with Wynne and/or a mage pc.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 06 février 2010 - 10:51 .

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

That's interesting! Not enough to get me to spare him, I don't think, but interesting. Actually, in Avernus's case, I'm not sure there is enough remorse for that.... I haven't heard the dialogue, though. It might change my mind. Still, I have no problem killing the Maleficar in the tower and Avernus's crimes are much greater.

Well, I compare him to someone like Zevran. I've spared him on all but one of my playthroughs, and he shows no remorse for killing people for money. Indeed, he says he enjoys it and doesn't want to give up being an assassin. He even has sex with this victims and kills them anyway.

Or Sten, who doesn't show remorse for killing the farmers. He admits that it was wrong, because he knew they weren't at fault, but remorse? No.

Now Avernus doesn't truly show remorse, he's not full of guilt for what he did, but he does admit (or that's the implication, anyway) that his actions were wrong, if you pass the check. You don't get the whole thing in text, it's another one of those cases of having to fill in the missing dialogue, but the implication is that if you're persuasive enough you can show him the error of his ways.

Is that enough for you to spare him? Well, that's a personal choice. I just wanted to point out, in case you didn't know, that Avernus can show remorse in the right circumstances - or at least, he can admit that his actions were wrong.

Edit: And, of course, Avernus would be a good candidate for coming up with the Neutralisation of the Taint Treatment - maybe working in conjunction with Wynne and/or a mage pc.

I spare Zevran because he's never had a choice. I want to give him one. By the time I find out that, given a choice, he not only wants to continue on the same path, but actually enjoys being an assassain (his description of enjoying the feeling of his knife sinking into flesh is very disturbing), he's under my protection. That changes things. I always keep him at more of a distance than the other characters. It's virtually impossible for my character to converse honestly with him without racking up the disapproval points. One of these days, I'm going to answer honestly instead of politely and let him turn on me.

I kind of disagree about Sten. He doesn't show human remorse, but he does show regret and a profound sense of personal failure. That may be all that is possible for a Qunari. I don't know enough about his people to make that call.

Avernus is the kind of guy that can torture the men and women he fought beside in the name of research. He's just not trustworthy and his crimes are of appalling magnitude. To me, they're unforgivable, and any knowledge he might have is suspect. Still, I'll be interested to try and get that dialogue.

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 février 2010 - 11:08 .

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

Avernus is the kind of guy that can torture the men and women he fought beside in the name of research. He's just not trustworthy and his crimes are of appalling magnitude. To me, they're unforgivable, and any knowledge he might have is suspect. Still, I'll be interested to try and get that dialogue.

Oh, I don't disagree. The first time I got that response from Avernus, I was so surprised. And that was the first time I spared him - with great feelings of trepidation - in the hope that forcing him to work ethically in future would be a way to pay for his crimes. A kind of labour camp, for what's left of his life. In fact, I've killed him far more often than not. I'm not sure he can be trusted to keep his word.

Nevertheless, I like to let those who want redemption to try to achieve it. It's always a risk, of course. Rather like convicted murderers and rapists - should they be punished (imprisoned) and then set free? Or the death sentence for all serious crimes? In a world that doesn't allow us to choose any medium option like imprisonment (except for Anora), we have to choose either letting them go, or killing them. I'm not entirely happy with either option.

I think he shows far more remorse than Loghain. Almost everyone ingame does, though. It's partly for that reason that I can't bring myself to spare Loghain. The other part is that the only options you have for sparing him involve making him even more a hero with the people - and that doesn't sit well with me at all. Sweeping his sins under the carpet - no. At least with Avernus, it's clear to all that he was wrong, that he did evil things, and that even if he comes up with something worthwhile in his research, this doesn't automatically make him a 'good guy' or a hero.

Redemption, in my opinion, should be about personal 'salvation', about redeeming oneself and one's soul after committing great crimes. It should not be about public salvation, redeeming your reputation for the benefit of others and allowing them to ignore your crimes because of later good deed. That's utterly and completely immoral.

For instance, Jowan's attempts to fix or make right all the wrong things he did. He doesn't expect to be let go or for his behaviour to just be forgiven and forgotten because he finally does the right thing - and nor should he. Crime deserves punishment. Doing wrong things can't be forgiven because you later did right ones. Not until you've paid the price, anyway.

The problem is, with Avernus and almost everyone else we come across, we're simply not given any third option. It's letting him go - or killing him. Pretty black and white for a game supposedly about shades of grey.

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Avernus is the kind of guy that can torture the men and women he fought beside in the name of research. He's just not trustworthy and his crimes are of appalling magnitude. To me, they're unforgivable, and any knowledge he might have is suspect. Still, I'll be interested to try and get that dialogue.

Oh, I don't disagree. The first time I got that response from Avernus, I was so surprised. And that was the first time I spared him - with great feelings of trepidation - in the hope that forcing him to work ethically in future would be a way to pay for his crimes. A kind of labour camp, for what's left of his life. In fact, I've killed him far more often than not. I'm not sure he can be trusted to keep his word.

Nevertheless, I like to let those who want redemption to try to achieve it. It's always a risk, of course. Rather like convicted murderers and rapists - should they be punished (imprisoned) and then set free? Or the death sentence for all serious crimes? In a world that doesn't allow us to choose any medium option like imprisonment (except for Anora), we have to choose either letting them go, or killing them. I'm not entirely happy with either option.

I think he shows far more remorse than Loghain. Almost everyone ingame does, though. It's partly for that reason that I can't bring myself to spare Loghain. The other part is that the only options you have for sparing him involve making him even more a hero with the people - and that doesn't sit well with me at all. Sweeping his sins under the carpet - no. At least with Avernus, it's clear to all that he was wrong, that he did evil things, and that even if he comes up with something worthwhile in his research, this doesn't automatically make him a 'good guy' or a hero.

Redemption, in my opinion, should be about personal 'salvation', about redeeming oneself and one's soul after committing great crimes. It should not be about public salvation, redeeming your reputation for the benefit of others and allowing them to ignore your crimes because of later good deed. That's utterly and completely immoral.

For instance, Jowan's attempts to fix or make right all the wrong things he did. He doesn't expect to be let go or for his behaviour to just be forgiven and forgotten because he finally does the right thing - and nor should he. Crime deserves punishment. Doing wrong things can't be forgiven because you later did right ones. Not until you've paid the price, anyway.

The problem is, with Avernus and almost everyone else we come across, we're simply not given any third option. It's letting him go - or killing him. Pretty black and white for a game supposedly about shades of grey.

Agreed, there are characters that I would let live if a more suitable punishment was available. Avernus probably wouldn't be one of them, but one like the Maleficar in the tower.... She shows less real regret than Avernus did in your playthrough if you talk to her enough, but her crimes are less--mostly supportive of those who really transgressed. That being the case, I would probably allow her to be imprisoned rather than die, if I could.

[SusanStoHelit]

Nevertheless, and it was kind of the point of my seemingly off-topic posts, I think Avernus would be a very good candidate for coming up with some kind of treatment for the taint.



Whether we're looking for a 'simple' cure, or a more complex treatment that neutralises the damage done by the taint without actually destroying it, he seems to me to have the most knowledge and be most likely to come up with some answers. And teaming him up with someone like Wynne, a mage pc, or other healers & mages, would be most likely to lead to a successful outcome.

[maxernst]

Hmm...well, haven't met Avernus yet but he sounds like the Joseph Mengele of Ferelden. I guess I'll see when I get there, but I think I might have a hard time sparing him. Zevran, well, yes, I was disturbed by the description of taking pleasure in killing, too. But with him, I can see more where he's coming from...he's a little like Morrigan, that way. And from the stories I've heard so far, it's hard to be particularly sympathetic to Zevran's victims. But I was disappointed when I told him he could be anything he wanted now and he still wanted to be an assassin--after that and the description of killing I decided not to romance him.



Hence--I downloaded the "equal love" mod and am romancing Alistair instead (as a male human noble). I'm thinking it could get weird around Landsmeet through.

[errant_knight]

maxernst wrote...

Hmm...well, haven't met Avernus yet but he sounds like the Joseph Mengele of Ferelden. I guess I'll see when I get there, but I think I might have a hard time sparing him. Zevran, well, yes, I was disturbed by the description of taking pleasure in killing, too. But with him, I can see more where he's coming from...he's a little like Morrigan, that way. And from the stories I've heard so far, it's hard to be particularly sympathetic to Zevran's victims. But I was disappointed when I told him he could be anything he wanted now and he still wanted to be an assassin--after that and the description of killing I decided not to romance him.

Hence--I downloaded the "equal love" mod and am romancing Alistair instead (as a male human noble). I'm thinking it could get weird around Landsmeet through.

Exactly! And this is why I kill him.

[Degrey Nightstalker]

Well Avernus and his actions with the Wardens happened 200 years ago, my perceptive is we where not there we don't have the full story of what was happening and as Wardens we are not bound by the same moral rules as our order is to protect humanity and life by what ever means are available to us.

Avernus can be used by us to further our understanding of the taint and exploit its abilities, his research may lead to some useful developments and as such his past actions which we had no control over as they happened about 200 years before we where born, we can not really judge him on as we are not in possession of all the facts.

He may just be a Blood Mage and may of been corrupted by power but he will spend the rest of his life searching for ways to aid the wardens in their struggle against the darkspawn. Caladrius, the leader of the Tevinter slavers, however I will not accept help from for the simple fact I am present at the point of the crimes and able to prevent his actions so, I am able to judge what is true about the situation and kill him and his slaver friends.

[errant_knight]

Degrey Nightstalker wrote...

Well Avernus and his actions with the Wardens happened 200 years ago, my perceptive is we where not there we don't have the full story of what was happening and as Wardens we are not bound by the same moral rules as our order is to protect humanity and life by what ever means are available to us.
Avernus can be used by us to further our understanding of the taint and exploit its abilities, his research may lead to some useful developments and as such his past actions which we had no control over as they happened about 200 years before we where born, we can not really judge him on as we are not in possession of all the facts.
He may just be a Blood Mage and may of been corrupted by power but he will spend the rest of his life searching for ways to aid the wardens in their struggle against the darkspawn. Caladrius, the leader of the Tevinter slavers, however I will not accept help from for the simple fact I am present at the point of the crimes and able to prevent his actions so, I am able to judge what is true about the situation and kill him and his slaver friends.

Valid roleplay, of course. Personally, I don't think the wardens are unbound by moral rules, or that there's any grey area in torturing and murdering your fellow grey wardens. I also think the initial summoning of demons was beyond the pale but there we're moving into an area that I can admit is more grey. I believe that we have all the facts necessary to judge him--we read them in his journal, and he admits everything freely.

[MaxQuartiroli]

Well.. I believe sparing Avernus may be a good or a bad choice, it depends on your reasons

If you spare him because you hope he can find something that may beuseful to you... for example, to get more power or new talents you act as a bad guy

I spared him as I spared everyone in this game (with few exceptions) because I believe that everybody should have the opportunity to expiate for his guilties... So I think that by sparing him I acted as a good guy

[errant_knight]

MaxQuartiroli wrote...

Well.. I believe sparing Avernus may be a good or a bad choice, it depends on your reasons
If you spare him because you hope he can find something that may beuseful to you... for example, to get more power or new talents you act as a bad guy
I spared him as I spared everyone in this game (with few exceptions) because I believe that everybody should have the opportunity to expiate for his guilties... So I think that by sparing him I acted as a good guy

You're a better man than I, Gunga Din. Well, I'm not a man at all, but you get my drift.

[Degrey Nightstalker]

errant_knight, you make a a valid point about the information provided at the keep but from my point of view the crimes committed, where beyond our ability to judge his actions as we where not there at the time we did not face starvation for months held up against vast numbers of enemy forces at our door step.
The use of demons was the was a means to an end and as they had no other option and their leader had agreed and given the order for the use of. Everything after that point is hugely a grey area torturing and using his fellow wardens for his experiments, well you are locked in a tower surrounded by undead and demons, be they of your own making, after all what was the other option death at the hands of a dictator.
I don't think it would be my first choice to summon demons or was it their it was a last ditch attempt at survival and in that situation would you simply lay down and die or would you try every option to survive.
What we don't know is if the wardens allowed him to use them in his experiments as a way to save them selves,from the situation they where in, or if it was a way of rationing their supplies they drew lots, maybe hoping for reinforcements or someone to come and save them.
The way I look at it he had a few attempts at his experiments after the demons where released and if there where 4-10 other survivors they could of easily put him down as he tried to force them to be a test subject.
The fact he used his fellow wardens is not in question in my mind its the context that is, and the information around the use is what is in question. Was it a last hope to free them selves or a quicker death than starvation or worse changing from the taint slowly and painfully with the passing of time locked up in the tower. That's what we dont know and to be fair he has lived over 200 years and his knowledge may come in useful or if not then he dies.  

Modifié par Degrey Nightstalker, 10 février 2010 - 10:27 .

[Kryyptehk]

My character is very manipulative and will do anything to preserve those she loves. Would she go as far as asking a maleficar to find a cure for her? Perhaps, if she had direct control over how far they went. She definitely would do it to save Alistair.



I like happy endings though, so I hope that a cure is possible, but with a great price. I think that would be fitting.