194 réponses à ce sujet

[spock06]

 I have a question for all those complaining that ME2 is not a "real" RPG:  What is a REAL RPG?

Is it being able to loot a lot of items that are mostly useless?
Is it having to sift through a ton of unnecessarily complicated interface menus?  (I probably spent the majority of my time playing Oblivion in one menu or another)
Is it having "lots of content" and an "open world"? (translation:  a million 'fetch' quests and the ability to have a lot of meaningless conversations with badly written and unimportant characters)

If thats what you think makes an RPG, than I guess ME2 isn't one.  However, if like me you think what really makes a good RPG is
A strong plot wherein the player feels as through they themselves are advancing it
Memorable, unique characters the player is actually interested in
A variety of locales the player can explore at his/her own pace

and most importantly
Fun gameplay

Than ME2 is a pretty good example of focusing on what MATTERS in an RPG and trying to make the actual gameplay as FUN as possible.

The game is not perfect.  It has flaws.  There are certain aspects of ME1 they canned which I feel just needed tweaking, not trashing.  Yet, it is FUN.  YOU are in control of the story, YOU influence the characters, and the gameplay, i.e. the combat, is on par with most shooters.  I don't understand all this QQing about ME2 not being a "real" RPG.  Define "real" RPG and I would be more inclined to listen, just just saying OMG THE INVENTORY IS GONE AND THERES NO LOOT ITS NOT AN RPG is childlike and missing the point.

[vashts1985]

love it. love everything about it.



wish people would stop complaining already

[Shrimmels]

Agreed

[Clumsy Ninja]

I think most people associate 'real RPGs' with boring, removed combat that feels like a numbers game more than a skill-based action experience. To me, turn based fighting and stat driven combat remove me from the experience... from the 'role' the rest of the game is trying to allow me to play.

[hexaligned]

Character freedom, and player freedom to mold and evolve and change a character is what makes an RPG to me. Running around in linear tube maps, with the only choice being dialogue choice 1, or dialogue choice 2, is not roleplaying. I don't think this game is any less of an RPG than the first one though, both are action/shooter games.

[KujaSeven]

spock06 wrote...

 I have a question for all those complaining that ME2 is not a "real" RPG:  What is a REAL RPG?

Is it being able to loot a lot of items that are mostly useless?
Is it having to sift through a ton of unnecessarily complicated interface menus?  (I probably spent the majority of my time playing Oblivion in one menu or another)
Is it having "lots of content" and an "open world"? (translation:  a million 'fetch' quests and the ability to have a lot of meaningless conversations with badly written and unimportant characters)

If thats what you think makes an RPG, than I guess ME2 isn't one.  However, if like me you think what really makes a good RPG is
A strong plot wherein the player feels as through they themselves are advancing it
Memorable, unique characters the player is actually interested in
A variety of locales the player can explore at his/her own pace

and most importantly
Fun gameplay

Than ME2 is a pretty good example of focusing on what MATTERS in an RPG and trying to make the actual gameplay as FUN as possible.

The game is not perfect.  It has flaws.  There are certain aspects of ME1 they canned which I feel just needed tweaking, not trashing.  Yet, it is FUN.  YOU are in control of the story, YOU influence the characters, and the gameplay, i.e. the combat, is on par with most shooters.  I don't understand all this QQing about ME2 not being a "real" RPG.  Define "real" RPG and I would be more inclined to listen, just just saying OMG THE INVENTORY IS GONE AND THERES NO LOOT ITS NOT AN RPG is childlike and missing the point.

Signed.

[CRISIS1717]

Im liking ME2, but both parties in this debate are misunderstanding.



ME1 fans are saying its not an rpg, but it is an rpg. What they mean to say is they think its lost the core elements that made it Mass Effect.



ME2 fans are trying to argue the definition of rpgs, which is not the point being argued.

[spock06]

@relhart:

To me, character freedom is less about the potential to explore a huge, bland world full of nothing and more about the ability to make meaningful choices which directly affect the story, your own character, and the characters around you, which ME2 most certainly has done. In terms of being an action/RPG...isn't action and combat a huge part of every RPG? The only difference with ME2 is that instead of making combat a series of visualized dice rolls, Bioware modeled the action after shooter games, making it much more fun, fast paced, and intense.

[AtreiyaN7]

Oh yes this is pretty much my point of view on the subject. I agree with you - some people are just set on categorizing ONLY games with dice rolls/RNG and a minimum set number of skills as being RPGs. They're being far too rigid in how you define what a good RPG is.

[Merlanni]

Planescape Torment.

[II Enix II]

People who can't accept it's an RPG live in their mothers basements. They like to roll dice to see if the goblins attack them on the way to the toilet, put on a wizards outfit as they play games, and use phrases from games like "OH MAKERS BREATH". Their idea of an RPG is very different to normal people.

[daguest]

a rpg for me, is playing a role. Makes choices. Be an ass or a good guy, or just a guy who want to stay alive. Or whatever you want. In ME1 you can be a good guy who sometimes makes the wrong decision by fear or whatever, because he is human (IE be a paragon with point in renegade). In ME2, if you are paragon, you will have a lot more conversation option, meaning it will be more difficult to do the renegade choices. Or vice versa, of course.
It's not "click on the upper right answer to be good". This is just like choosing to kill a monster with an assault rifle instead of a pistol because your assault rifle is better.
Why i MUST say i don't think cerberus is bad, and i have no other choice when i talk to ash ? I destroyed the most of them in ME1, i said all along ME2 the game i know they will betray me and how bad they are, and suddendly i say to ash they are cool ?
Why i say to mordin genophage is bad whatever the reason for (apragon choice), and few minutes after, the appropriate paragon answer is to tell him it was the only choice he have ?
Just 2 exemples, during gameplay i found a lot more.

With your description, stalker is a rpg, so stalker is an awesome rpg (you can even kill people who helped you !), and borderlands to. Im sorry, borderlands and stalker are action game with part of rpg in it.


I hate baldurs gate because it's too complex for me. Rolling a dice is not a rpg, i totally agree. But rpg mean Role Playing Game. I don't think spamming space key is playing a role.

Modifié par daguest, 01 février 2010 - 07:28 .

[jarred1907]

Well op. Every game on the market is an rpg then by your definition. It's every developers goal to immerse the player into a games story whether they accomplish this or not. ME 2 is great action based game. At first I was dissappointed for what it was not. Now after putting some time into it, I'm having FUN with it for what it is.

[wikkedjoker]

ME2 is the best third person shooter with RPG bits I've ever played.

[Clumsy Ninja]

II Enix II wrote...

People who can't accept it's an RPG live in their mothers basements. They like to roll dice to see if the goblins attack them on the way to the toilet, put on a wizards outfit as they play games, and use phrases from games like "OH MAKERS BREATH". Their idea of an RPG is very different to normal people.

I seriously lol'ed at this.  "Maker's Breath"... hee-larious

[spock06]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

Im liking ME2, but both parties in this debate are misunderstanding.

ME1 fans are saying its not an rpg, but it is an rpg. What they mean to say is they think its lost the core elements that made it Mass Effect.

ME2 fans are trying to argue the definition of rpgs, which is not the point being argued.

I see what you're saying, but WHAT were those core elements?  A terrible inventory system?  I do think that the skill trees in ME2 have been oversimplified ( I want my Carnage ability back dammit!!!!!!! Best part of ME1!) but at the same time I cannot comprehend how someone could think the "core" of ME1 has not translated to ME2.  For me the core of Mass Effect franchise is

a unique, well thought out, realistic sci-fi setting and a compelling storyline
strong characters
good writing, an incredible conversation system
intense, shooter style combat

NOT some redundant "old school RPG" elements...

[the_one_54321]

It is playing a role because the character and its abilities define all outcomes, rather than you or your reflexes. If you think stat based combat is boring, then you think RPGs are boring.



It really doesn't have much to do with whether or not it is a good game. It is only a matter of applying the correct label. In ME, you point the gun, and you pull the trigger. Sheperd does not do either of these things. Therefore, it is a shooter.

[miltos33]

This game is a shooter with light rpg elements but I don't complain about it. So are the Stalker games and I really love them. Just don't pretend that this is an rpg because it belittles an otherwise great game for no reason at all. Can't you like the game for what it is?

[_KTA_]

This is a true RPG that is an awesome intense shooter to boot. The cynics are silly calling it Gears Effect 2... ugh.



Maybe there wasn't enough planet scanning for all the hardcore RPGers! (I am a hardcore RPGer, ME2 is anything but light on RPG)

[spock06]

jarred1907 wrote...

Well op. Every game on the market is an rpg then by your definition. It's every developers goal to immerse the player into a games story whether they accomplish this or not. ME 2 is great action based game. At first I was dissappointed for what it was not. Now after putting some time into it, I'm having FUN with it for what it is.

Well said, but every game is not an RPG by my definition.  Perhaps I should have been more specific, but what I meant is that an RPG (to me) is a game where the the player retains a degree of control over the events of the game and of their own character.  Even in a linear style RPG like ME2, no two playthroughs will be the same.  Different choices, different created characters, different skills allocated, different party members used.  It is the power of choice that defines RPGs and sets them apart from say a Gears of War or Halo or Starcraft.  Many RPGs try to do this by offering exhaustive lists of items and locations and endless skills.  ME2 does it by giving the player powerful choices that directly affect the main story and characters.

I think that many modern games try to incorporate RPG elements by offering customizable characters and different routes to take, which is why my definition seems to encompass the "whole market"  Games like Borderlands or Diablo do, I think, fall under the RPG label, but they are action first, story and characters second, which to me suggest an "RPG-lite" or Action-RPG title.  ME2, despite its emphasis on combat, remains story-first.

[tmelange]

spock06 wrote...

 I have a question for all those complaining that ME2 is not a "real" RPG:  What is a REAL RPG?

Likely, when people say ME2 is not a "real" RPG, they are not referring to the definition of the words "role-playing". Obviously, in ME2 you are playing the role of Cmdr. Shepard. At it's simpliest analysis, therefore, ME2 is a RPG.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I simplify the issue and say that ME2 has only "elements" of a RPG, or that it's not a "real" RPG, I mean that ME2 does not typify the genre. And it doesn't. The game is light on what most people who have played RPGs historically have come to expect from a game with that genre label.

[Striker257]

Tactics, customization, building a character or group. Exploring, speaking to people, working on multiple "quests/missions/assignments/" whatever at one time. Finding new upgrades and doing more damage.



So far a lot of what makes an RPG immersive and tactical has been removed in favor of a stream lined generic experience.

[spock06]

Just a thought: when Half Life came out on PC, many claimed it was not a "real" FPS, because it defied traditional notions of what a shooter should and should not be. Now its considered to be the best and most influential shooter ever (besides the original Wolf 3d and Doom). Just because we have an idea of what the genre of RPGs should and should not be doesn't mean ME2 isnt one.

[Striker257]

tmelange wrote...

spock06 wrote...

 I have a question for all those complaining that ME2 is not a "real" RPG:  What is a REAL RPG?

Likely, when people say ME2 is not a "real" RPG, they are not referring to the definition of the words "role-playing". Obviously, in ME2 you are playing the role of Cmdr. Shepard. At it's simpliest analysis, therefore, ME2 is a RPG.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I simplify the issue and say that ME2 has only "elements" of a RPG, or that it's not a "real" RPG, I mean that ME2 does not typify the genre. And it doesn't. The game is light on what most people who have played RPGs historically have come to expect from a game with that genre label.

Well said. I've been playing RPGs since the original Final Fantasy and while every one is different, the changes from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 2 are prety dramatic on the RPG element. There are definitely different styles of RPGs and I like most of them. If I was going from Oblivion to Mass Effect. Or from Dragon Age to Final Fantasy, I would expect a very different experience. What I don't expect is a huge shift in style of games from the same company like Bioware. Especially when it is a direct sequel.