194 réponses à ce sujet

[jarred1907]

tmelange wrote...

jarred1907 wrote...

You slap on 4-6 more guns in each catagory (rifle, pistol, etc). Slap 6-8 more pieces of armor to each catagory (chest, shoulders, greaves, etc). Then allow you to apply these pieces to your team (molded to their body types) with color customization. AND ALL OF THESE COMPLAINTS GO AWAY. Because all the other complaints would be too insignificant to waste time posting about.

I don't necessarily think this is the case. I do think the changes made to the traditional RPG framework were pervasive. Which is neither here nor there, and depends completely on BW's strategic goals and the desires of the person playing as to whether the change was successful. I can only speak for myself but the lack of an inventory system, where the player can evaluate stats and build out their own team is like removing stats from a fantasy sports league. You can watch the games but the fun that is represented by the analysis is gone.

The linear nature of the missions brought to mind Devil May Cry, and is a stark departure from the way a person would ordinarily expect to navigate a RPG. It's...jarring not to be able to stop a mission and come back later, sans being booted back to the start, or to have the story propel you in a certain direction via a conversation with TIM without your volition.

Etc. etc. No need to go over every point. I think the game is great for what it is. I just don't like to act as if it is a paragon of the RPG genre when it is really...a bit of a slap in the face to the traditional RPG enthusiast. It's a monument to gutting the genre, basically saying that the little things that we've enjoyed most over the years are too "insular" to translate. :shrug: And that's fine. Don't expect me not to complain about it, though.

Ahhh yes....I do miss the stats....It would be nice to see numerically how all the upgrades impact weapon damage and armor.....Kinda feels like i'm going into combat blind to how badazz I am.

[spock06]

Mordaedil wrote...

spock06 wrote...

I hated Dragon Age for a number of reasons, one of which my character NEVER SAID A WORD.  In almost every RPG, your character just stares blankly at whoever he's talking to.  Thats not roleplaying.

Now kids, what does roleplaying mean?

It means to enact a role of someone else, trying to act as you think they'd act to the best of your ability to imitate them.

Let's face it, Mass Effect took that out of your hands. You can direct the plot a bit, you can sort of guide Shepard along a series of tubes, but in the end, it's like driving a car from the backseat. You're not really in control, but you pretend you are.

Perhaps, but what you call "roleplaying" is impossible in the current state of video games.  We might think our character would act in a certain way, but the range of possible actions is limited by the confines and rules of the game.  In Dragon Age (ME2 as well) I might have thought my character would swim across the lake to get to the other side, however the mechanics of the game world prevented this from happening.  So you have two options:
1.  Pretend that you never tried to swim across the lake and continue to try and convince yourself that your alter ego could swim across, he "just doesn't want to."
2.  Realize that its a video game and try to get the maximum possible enjoyment out of it while understandung its boundries and limitations.

With this in mind, consider ME2's dialogue system.  Yes, you make a rather ambiguous choice of how to proceed with the conversation, and your choice is then manifested in the form of a voice acted line of dialogue.

Personally, I find this vastly superior to the dialogue of Fallout or Dragon Age.  In ME, I feel as though I'm playing a movie.  My Shepard is engaged in a cinematic level of conversation, complete with dramatic camera angles, characters moving and reacting to whats going on, etc.  Whereas in most RPGs the dialogue is completely and utterly static.  Your character barely moves.  Other characters may react, but it kind of ruins it when in the midst of a dramatic moment you have to stop and read 60 lines of text before deciding on your response.

I suppose its a matter of preference, but I would say Mass Effect's dialogue is its strongest point.

[Sylvius the Mad]

spock06 wrote...

Uh...what?  The dialogue wheel is brilliant.  It actually makes you pay attention and listen to the conversations.  You do control shepard's actions by picking the general mindset behind each answer. 

The general mindset?  What does that even mean?

I want to be able to have Shepard say what I want and avoid saying and doing things I don't want him to do.  And ME's dialogue wheel absolutely does not allow that.  Shepard routinely acts in a way that is contrary to my intentions, and is often out of character.

How can I be roleplaying when I don't even know the character I'm playing?  His behaviour made no sense to me.

If you think its more fun to read five different mini paragraph answers, all of which result in the same outcome for the conversation, then go play Dragon Age

I am.  You'll note I haven't yet acquired ME2.  I probably will at some point, but I'm certainly in no hurry.

Not to mention the interrupt option.  It feels as though the player is in control of hi/her own movie.

 
If you were in control, then you'd know what it was Shepard was about to do with that interrupt.  But you don't, do you?  You never know what Shepard is going to do until after he's done it.

You're not playing the game.  You're watching the game.

What dialogue system is better?  I hated Dragon Age for a number of reasons, one of which my character NEVER SAID A WORD.

Your character in Dragon Age said whatever you wanted him to say, just as the PC always does in an RPG.  Do you honestly think that nothing happens in the game world if it isn't rendered on-screen for you?  You must therefore believe that Shepard never eats or sleeps.  That Shepard never breaks stride while running.  That Shepard's clothing magically appears on his rather than him actually putting it on.

Of course you don't believe that, so why do you think your DAO PC didn't speak?

[Sylvius the Mad]

spock06 wrote...

In ME, I feel as though I'm playing a movie. 

Exactly.  That's entirely not what I want from a computer game.

[spock06]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


The general mindset?  What does that even mean?

I want to be able to have Shepard say what I want and avoid saying and doing things I don't want him to do.  And ME's dialogue wheel absolutely does not allow that.  Shepard routinely acts in a way that is contrary to my intentions, and is often out of character.

How can I be roleplaying when I don't even know the character I'm playing?  His behaviour made no sense to me.

If you think its more fun to read five different mini paragraph answers, all of which result in the same outcome for the conversation, then go play Dragon Age

I am.  You'll note I haven't yet acquired ME2.  I probably will at some point, but I'm certainly in no hurry.

Not to mention the interrupt option.  It feels as though the player is in control of hi/her own movie.

 
If you were in control, then you'd know what it was Shepard was about to do with that interrupt.  But you don't, do you?  You never know what Shepard is going to do until after he's done it.

You're not playing the game.  You're watching the game.

What dialogue system is better?  I hated Dragon Age for a number of reasons, one of which my character NEVER SAID A WORD.

Your character in Dragon Age said whatever you wanted him to say, just as the PC always does in an RPG.  Do you honestly think that nothing happens in the game world if it isn't rendered on-screen for you?  You must therefore believe that Shepard never eats or sleeps.  That Shepard never breaks stride while running.  That Shepard's clothing magically appears on his rather than him actually putting it on.

Of course you don't believe that, so why do you think your DAO PC didn't speak?

The general mindset means you pick the thought process which comes out as an worded answer.  I find it enjoyable to see what different answers come out.  In Dragon Age my character just blanked stood by.  The dialogue of the other characters was great, but my character was just a silent spectator.  At least in ME I get the sense that Shepard is a real persona who is actual interacting with the world of the game.  That to me is immersion.  Its not a question of being rendered on screen, however, when things are happening and my character doesn't react, that break immersion.  Enjoy Dragon Age with its atrocious graphics, World of Warcraft-lite combat, and cliched story.

[spock06]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

spock06 wrote...

In ME, I feel as though I'm playing a movie. 

Exactly.  That's entirely not what I want from a computer game.

Than its simply a matter of preference.  I like cinematic games.  Sorry to start flaming I got carried away.

[jarred1907]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

spock06 wrote...

In ME, I feel as though I'm playing a movie. 

Exactly.  That's entirely not what I want from a computer game.

It really sounds like ME1 was not the game for you....you haven't even played ME2 (which has the same dialog set up as ME1)...which brings to question....why are you on this forum?

[exboomer]

SkullandBonesmember wrote...

Let me provide a couple quotes.

Me:
Spanning from the original boards, the gamers on this forum seem to in my opinion fall into 1 of 4 categories.

The first being the RPG fans who like loot and level grinding.

The second being shooter or to a lesser extent action fans who feel combat is just as important as the plot and character interaction.

The third being shooter and or action fans who feel combat should take priority ABOVE plot and character interaction and as I've said like 'SPLOSHUNS.

The fourth are RPG fans who above all else feel games live and die by story and character interaction.

I and another forum member Nozy fall into the latter group. Fans from this latter group feel the combat overshadowed the plot and "dumbed down" the sequel compared to ME. This is the popular consensus on other boards as well when it comes to people from the latter category.

A quote from Nozy:
Is the RPG genre something static that will never change? Is the "core fan base" some kind of uniform group all wanting the same thing? For me ME2 is all about getting rid of the nonsensical roleplaying game implementations (like overly bloated loot systems and overly complex character builds) and instead focusing on that which furthers roleplaying; like realism and immersion. Romances are a powerful tool as they tap into deeper emotions and can motivate a player on a whole new level.

If I was simply about "killing everything that moves" I would pick a pure shooter, not an RPG. Levelling up, and skill and attribute allocation is character development in the narrowest possible sense and best confined to MMORPGs who focus on this area to compensate for the lack of story or roleplaying.

A game that has the potential to be almost perfect is the upcoming Heavy Rain for the PS3. THAT is what an RPG should strive for. Only problems with it are going to be I'm pretty sure there's just one romance option and it won't be more than 13 hours.

I pretty much agree with what you wrote.  Especially If I was simply about "killing everything that moves" I would pick a pure shooter, not an RPG. ME was meant to be an RPG first and foremost and I really am wondering if EA forced Bioware to change the game so it could make more money.  If so they may of killed the golden goose for those of us who love RPGs more than shooters.

[the_one_54321]

exboomer wrote...
ME was meant to be an RPG first and foremost

No, ME1 was billed as an RPG. ME2 was specifically not billed as an RPG. BioWare is not advertising ME2 as an RPG.

[Sylvius the Mad]

spock06 wrote...

The general mindset means you pick the thought process which comes out as an worded answer.  I find it enjoyable to see what different answers come out.

 
I find it creates a divide between me and Shepard.  If Shepard is the one choosing the words, then I'm not playing him.  I'm just whispering in his ear.

In Dragon Age my character just blanked stood by.  The dialogue of the other characters was great, but my character was just a silent spectator.

 
Only if you decided that was so.  Your character in DAO clearly did speak; there were conversations in the game.

At least in ME I get the sense that Shepard is a real persona who is actual interacting with the world of the game.

 
Here you're asking the game to fill in your character's personality for you.  That to me is not roleplaying.

Enjoy Dragon Age with its atrocious graphics,

I thought DAO's graphics were needlessly good.

World of Warcraft-lite combat, and cliched story.

Far superior to WoW.  In DAO you can pause.  WoW's combat is too actiony for my tastes.

jarred1907 wrote...

It really sounds like ME1 was not the game for you.

Really not.

why are you on this forum?

Because I love RPGs, and I don't want BioWare to think that RPGs fans will accept ME-style content.  ME is the furthest from RPGs BioWare has wandered outside of MDK2 and Shattered Steel, but it's not so obviously a different genre as those two were, so I'm here to draw the line.  BG, NWN, KotOR, JE, and DAO on one side - ME on the other.

[Eldertech]

People love to complain man.. lol its the law of the gaming jungle..
Fallout 3, Divinity 2, Dragon Age, just finished all 3 and saw the same comments around.
I ignore them after all these years.
They should put cheese in the box versions to have with the whine.
If your pretending your someone else and building/making choices in a character its an RPG  there are different styles of RPG's.
I just freshly installed this Gem.. had a few to finish up and am very much looking forward to it and the community.

Modifié par Eldertech, 01 février 2010 - 09:34 .

[Veex]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Because I love RPGs, and I don't want BioWare to think that RPGs fans will accept ME-style content.  ME is the furthest from RPGs BioWare has wandered outside of MDK2 and Shattered Steel, but it's not so obviously a different genre as those two were, so I'm here to draw the line.  BG, NWN, KotOR, JE, and DAO on one side - ME on the other.

A company has the right and freedom to make more than one style of game. I also enjoyed KotOR and DA:O, but I can also appreciate BioWare venturing in a different direction. If you personally don't like it that is fine, and there are others who agree with you. This is lighter on RPG elements than both KotOR and DA:O, and even the original Mass Effect. This is intended however. BioWare wanted to make an action oriented game with shooter mechanics that still portrayed an engrossing, interactive story.

You're absolutely right, there is a line between Mass Effect and BioWare's previous titles. You don't have to draw it, they already did. You'll just have to accept that this company is capable of making more than just turn based RPGs.

Modifié par Veex, 01 février 2010 - 09:35 .

[the_one_54321]

Eldertech wrote...
People love to complain man.. lol its the law of the gaming jungle.

Some of us are not complaining, and only arguing the semantics of the label.

[LolaRuns]

In ME, I feel as though I'm playing a movie.

And that's why it's not an RPG to me. But there is nothing wrong with not being an RPG (seriously, when exactly did RPG something to desperately strive for? Just because it's Bioware and they used to be famous for the RPGs? Well maybe they can now be famous for a variety of things. ). Whatever it is, it's good that way. Being a cinematic choice shooter game allows for its own dynamics, so why knock it for it?

But currently a ton of game of upgrades, item managment, merchants, even skill points, some even have some exploring (Assassin's Creed comes to mind). That doesn't make them RPG's. It makes them "X with roleplaying elements". And it's good that way. Roleplaying elements are ALL over the place, action games, horror games, even strategy games that now have somewhat personalizable heros. But just meeting interesting people and having lots of dialog with them isn't the exclusive to RPGs. Adventure games and some puzzle games have it too.

I do think that ME is more than just "X with roleplaying elements", but I do think that it's a hybrid.

Modifié par LolaRuns, 01 février 2010 - 09:43 .

[Vornesoul]

I don't think RPGs are really defined by that name. In most games, you play in the role of a character. You play Marcus Fenix in Gears of War and Link in Legend of Zelda. Nearly all games are RPGs if defined that way.

To me, a role-playing game is where you create a character to fill a role. You must create who will be the hero, how he will go about filling his duties and what choices and compainions he will make and take along.

I do not play as Commander Shepard in Mass Effect. I play as Commander Vorne Shepard or Commander Farathel Shepard in Mass Effect. I choose his class, the way he acts and who comes along with me.

Stats do not define an RPG to me. Adding eight to strength or five to agility doesn't define RPG anymore than a power-up in a fighter would. While I love loot (I LOVE LOOT) this doesn't mean it either.

Honestly, I don't see how Bioware somehow made Gears of Effect 2 with this installment. The only arguement that has come close to moving me is that we can't see the effective differences between manufactures of equipment like we could in the first one. I can't squee for joy that the Kassa Foundation or Ariake Technologies made my Omni-Tool.

When my Commander Shepard kills his LI without any input from me, we can start talking about Mass of War 2.

Modifié par Vornesoul, 01 février 2010 - 09:49 .

[Anubisan]

I love Mass Effect 2.

That being said, I do feel that there are some core RPG elements missing from the game. A big part of a good RPG in my opinion is character customization and itemization. It is great to pick up a new piece of armor and equip it because you notice that it provides a bonus to your particular playstyle. This allows you to further customize your characters and put real thought into them. Dragon Age did this very well and I felt like this was entirely missing from ME2. As a long-time fan of all things RPG, I have to say that this did bother me.

I also found myself missing the random ground missions spread throughout the galaxy. I honestly liked the rover from the first game and wished it was in this one as well.

Despite those two points, I thought ME2 was an excellent game. I just hope Bioware puts a little more emphasis on the RPG elements in ME3.

[the_one_54321]

justinnstuff wrote...
I'm glad to see that when I aim my rifle at someone the hit is determined by my own accuracy.

That is a shooter game. Not saying it's bad. Just that it is a shooter.

[Graunt]

II Enix II wrote...

People who can't accept it's an RPG live in their mothers basements. They like to roll dice to see if the goblins attack them on the way to the toilet, put on a wizards outfit as they play games, and use phrases from games like "OH MAKERS BREATH". Their idea of an RPG is very different to normal people.

That's funny and all, but you obviously don't really know what roleplaying actually is since you seem to think the larping nerds are doing something completely different.  Actually they are roleplaying in the most extreme sense, such that an actor in a play would.  Chip it away a bit, add some dice and make it more "normal person" friendly and you have pen and paper games like D&D.  

Now implement such a system on a computer and you have MUDS.  Add in graphics and take away the multiplayer aspect and you have games like Wizardry and Might and Magic.  Add them to consoles and you have Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy.  Those are all the very core of what makes a real RPG.  

This game is not an RPG, it's an action game with a lot of interactive cut scenes and customization so limited that it may as well be the same as just picking up a new weapon in any other action game.

[spock06]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

[
Because I love RPGs, and I don't want BioWare to think that RPGs fans will accept ME-style content.  ME is the furthest from RPGs BioWare has wandered outside of MDK2 and Shattered Steel, but it's not so obviously a different genre as those two were, so I'm here to draw the line.  BG, NWN, KotOR, JE, and DAO on one side - ME on the other.

Are you actually implying that the combat in DA:O is superior to that of ME?  DA had really, really flawed combat, especially if you played on an xbox 360.  Furthermore, I would argue that Jade Empire is less of an RPG than Mass Effect.   JE had very action-y combat, basically no loot, and very few skills.  Also, if you don't like the combat of ME, please don't ruin it for the rest of us by trying to institute a Fallout style where I blast someone with a shotgun point blank in the face and miss because my dice roll wasn't high enough.  

[Striker257]

Graunt wrote...

II Enix II wrote...

People who can't accept it's an RPG live in their mothers basements. They like to roll dice to see if the goblins attack them on the way to the toilet, put on a wizards outfit as they play games, and use phrases from games like "OH MAKERS BREATH". Their idea of an RPG is very different to normal people.

That's funny and all, but you obviously don't really know what roleplaying actually is since you seem to think the larping nerds are doing something completely different.  Actually they are roleplaying in the most extreme sense, such that an actor in a play would.  Chip it away a bit, add some dice and make it more "normal person" friendly and you have pen and paper games like D&D.  

Now implement such a system on a computer and you have MUDS.  Add in graphics and take away the multiplayer aspect and you have games like Wizardry and Might and Magic.  Add them to consoles and you have Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy.  Those are all the very core of what makes a real RPG.  

This game is not an RPG, it's an action game with a lot of interactive cut scenes and customization so limited that it may as well be the same as just picking up a new weapon in any other action game.

MUDs, oh how I miss Midgaard.

[spock06]

So RPGs = no emphasis on player skill whatsoever and leave all combat up to randomly determined dice rolls?

[Graunt]

spock06 wrote...

So RPGs = no emphasis on player skill whatsoever and leave all combat up to randomly determined dice rolls?

Traditionally that's what a roleplaying game is.  You act out your part and the "game" factor is through stats and the randomness of dice rolls.  D&D was more about imagination than it was twitch reflexes.  I do like what they did with the combat in ME2 for the most part, but they did it at the cost of everything else other than the cut scenes that made the first game so memorable.  No, the inventory system wasn't good in the original, but scrapping it entirely isn't the same thing as fixing it.

Modifié par Graunt, 01 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[the_one_54321]

Graunt wrote...

II Enix II wrote...
People who can't accept it's an RPG live in their mothers basements. They like to roll dice to see if the goblins attack them on the way to the toilet, put on a wizards outfit as they play games, and use phrases from games like "OH MAKERS BREATH". Their idea of an RPG is very different to normal people.

That's funny and all, but you obviously don't really know what roleplaying actually is since you seem to think the larping nerds are doing something completely different.  Actually they are roleplaying in the most extreme sense, such that an actor in a play would.  Chip it away a bit, add some dice and make it more "normal person" friendly and you have pen and paper games like D&D.  

Now implement such a system on a computer and you have MUDS.  Add in graphics and take away the multiplayer aspect and you have games like Wizardry and Might and Magic.  Add them to consoles and you have Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy.  Those are all the very core of what makes a real RPG.  

This game is not an RPG, it's an action game with a lot of interactive cut scenes and customization so limited that it may as well be the same as just picking up a new weapon in any other action game.

Very very well put. Very similar to what I've been saying on a number of these threads. It's just that a lot of people formed their onw incorrect ideas of what an RPG is, so when they hear the specific breakdown of how RPGs came into being and evolved into video games, they get offended and imediately reject it despite the concepts soundness.

[sleepforever]

dude Mass Effect 2 its not anymore an Pure RPG like Mass Effect 1 !!!!!!



Casey Hudson plz leave ur job man!!! I wanna see my stats, i want to customize my gun, armors



my friend disagree with me. he thinks Mass Effect 2 its not the best but its ok. I think it sucks!



in Mass Effect 1 i had all i ever dreamed in an RPG Shooter! and sorry but all of my friends agree that we had a lot of action in ME1 so ...



and the guns with bullets, in 2137 ... plz Caey Hudson, plz and again leave ur job man! ur screwing up this fantastic world of Bioware RPG'S