194 réponses à ce sujet

[whiteraider]

sleepforever wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

II Enix II wrote...
People who can't accept it's an RPG live in their mothers basements. They like to roll dice to see if the goblins attack them on the way to the toilet, put on a wizards outfit as they play games, and use phrases from games like "OH MAKERS BREATH". Their idea of an RPG is very different to normal people.

That's funny and all, but you obviously don't really know what roleplaying actually is since you seem to think the larping nerds are doing something completely different.  Actually they are roleplaying in the most extreme sense, such that an actor in a play would.  Chip it away a bit, add some dice and make it more "normal person" friendly and you have pen and paper games like D&D.  

Now implement such a system on a computer and you have MUDS.  Add in graphics and take away the multiplayer aspect and you have games like Wizardry and Might and Magic.  Add them to consoles and you have Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy.  Those are all the very core of what makes a real RPG.  

This game is not an RPG, it's an action game with a lot of interactive cut scenes and customization so limited that it may as well be the same as just picking up a new weapon in any other action game.

Very very well put. Very similar to what I've been saying on a number of these threads. It's just that a lot of people formed their onw incorrect ideas of what an RPG is, so when they hear the specific breakdown of how RPGs came into being and evolved into video games, they get offended and imediately reject it despite the concepts soundness.

Basically in allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll RPG u need Stats, customization, and variety of choises! WHERE R THOSE STATS IN MASS EFFECT 2 ????????????????????????????

i bet 20 dollars that u wont find them in ME2, i really bet 20 bucks!!

ME2 is an RPG in the truest sense, not because it has or doesnt have dice rolls and stats stats stats, but because you do get to choose a role, sometimes well implemented, sometimes not, but your choosen role affects outcomes to events and how people see your character!

Roleplay is about investigating choices and consequences, more than about mechanics of how a set of arbitary STATs govern outcomes!

Where ME2 (and many current cRPGs) is no longer pure RPG is in the first/third person combat, where some player skill is required to proceed through the actual mechanics of point a gun/hitting the keys in the right combo etc, but even here your chocies have some effect on the outcome (how much in each skill or which bonus skill taken!

ME2 is the current end of a long line of RPGs that I've played and enjoyed, that line started with Traveller, Tunnels & Trolls, Runequest & (A)D&D (v1), through live action, MUDs, to todays cRPGS, both western and japanese/korean!

Roleplay is use as a tool in most business to train people, in many re-education programmes, and in those cases you won't see a stat or a die, all you will see is your given role and a senario to investigate!

[sleepforever]

the_one_54321 wrote...

sleepforever wrote...
Customization, dialogs (Thats y i LOVE Baldurs gate and Mass Effect)

So they made an RPG with customization and dialog and named it Baldur's Gate and you loved it. And they made a shooter with customization and dialog and named it Mass Effect and you loved it. It all sounds nice to me.

Dude, i study medecine at Mcgill University, Montreal, no time to create games, who knows i might treat u in a hospital one day!!!!. I play RPG's since im 5 years old bro ... come on!! Im even sure i bought the first Baldurs gate ever released!!! I would love to work for them and give to them my ideas!!!!!!!!!! didnt u like the first ME????? didnt u like to fullllly customize ur guns, the mods? armors? have a lot of powers? Creating ur own and unique character??? well thats y i come to Bioware!!! and I always did!!! Since Baldurs gate 1 dude!!!

[the_one_54321]

whiteraider wrote...
Roleplay is about investigating choices and consequences, more than about mechanics of how a set of arbitary STATs govern outcomes!

This is inaccurate.

whiteraider wrote...
Where ME2 (and many current cRPGs) is no longer pure RPG is in the first/third person combat

This is accurate.

[LolaRuns]

By all your criteria it appears to be an excellent one...traditional style combat, huge amounts of loot, vast, open world, total player freedom...

I don't think that WOW is bad. If there's something that could be argued to bad from an RPG level is that it's hard to do a story if it can't possibly have an end (because you gotta shell out those monthly dollar FOREVER) and you have to sort of mass produce it for everyone. Which means that mostly people tend to love it for loot and stats alone and not care about story.



But there are plenty of things that can be good about it, like the shared experience of beating a tough dungeon together.

[Wrex.the.next.spectre]

Everyone has a different definition.
For me, an RPG is all about customizing your character, the strategy of leveling up and making a good build, and a strong story that you can control. The 2nd two were just about as close as you can get to perfect.

Customizing your character is a little weak ie. only 2-3 Shoulder pieces for armor, 4 helmets, 3 patterns.... I think if they expand on it, and have say 6-7 different patters/helmets/shoulder pieces... then it would be great. The character creator is lacking hair styles as well.

Also, the weapons are a little weak as far as strategy. It seems as there is one good version for the Heavy Pistol, SMG, Shotgun, and Sniper as well as one "beginner's" version. Even if they only had 3 guns for those groups, and 1 was a beginner, and the other 2 had pros or cons that were suited for different syles/enemies then it would be perfect.

Those are my only two gripes for what I consider a very excellent game, and improvement on the first game.

Modifié par Wrex.the.next.spectre, 01 février 2010 - 10:36 .

[the_one_54321]

sleepforever wrote...
Dude, i study medecine at Mcgill University, Montreal, no time to create games, who knows i might treat u in a hospital one day!!!!. I play RPG's since im 5 years old bro ... come on!! Im even sure i bought the first Baldurs gate ever released!!! I would love to work for them and give to them my ideas!!!!!!!!!! didnt u like the first ME????? didnt u like to fullllly customize ur guns, the mods? armors? have a lot of powers? Creating ur own and unique character??? well thats y i come to Bioware!!! and I always did!!! Since Baldurs gate 1 dude!!!

[GHOST OF FRUITY]

RPG's are different things to different people. To some, they fit the description of following a story, and having an impact on that story with your actions and how you play it. Mass Effect 1 and 2 are those types of RPG.



To others, RPG's are statistic based grindathon's with thousands of variations of armour, loot and tactical set up. Mass Effect 1 and 2 do not fit this discription and nor did Bioware ever state it would.



Thankfully Bioware have kept Mass Effect something that many RPG's i've played simply aren't - fun.

[the_one_54321]

Wrex.the.next.spectre wrote...
Everyone has a different definition.

GHOST OF FRUITY wrote...
RPG's are different things to different people.

To me, this is absolutely not ok, and amounts to an attempt at avoiding a real examination of the origins and developments of RPGs as video games.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 01 février 2010 - 10:37 .

[spock06]

the_one_54321 wrote...

whiteraider wrote...
Roleplay is about investigating choices and consequences, more than about mechanics of how a set of arbitary STATs govern outcomes!

This is inaccurate.

whiteraider wrote...
Where ME2 (and many current cRPGs) is no longer pure RPG is in the first/third person combat

This is accurate.

Explain.  If RPGS aren't about choice, storylines, characters, and consequences, than what ARE they about?  Stats and inventories?  You even play Baldur's Gate, or the original Fallouts?  You're telling me story, choice, and combat weren't the heart of those games?

[the_one_54321]

spock06 wrote...
Explain.

I've already explained it to you. Like five times, by now. Are you just not listening, or just completely disregarding it?

[sleepforever]

whiteraider wrote...

sleepforever wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Graunt wrote...

II Enix II wrote...
People who can't accept it's an RPG live in their mothers basements. They like to roll dice to see if the goblins attack them on the way to the toilet, put on a wizards outfit as they play games, and use phrases from games like "OH MAKERS BREATH". Their idea of an RPG is very different to normal people.

That's funny and all, but you obviously don't really know what roleplaying actually is since you seem to think the larping nerds are doing something completely different.  Actually they are roleplaying in the most extreme sense, such that an actor in a play would.  Chip it away a bit, add some dice and make it more "normal person" friendly and you have pen and paper games like D&D.  

Now implement such a system on a computer and you have MUDS.  Add in graphics and take away the multiplayer aspect and you have games like Wizardry and Might and Magic.  Add them to consoles and you have Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy.  Those are all the very core of what makes a real RPG.  

This game is not an RPG, it's an action game with a lot of interactive cut scenes and customization so limited that it may as well be the same as just picking up a new weapon in any other action game.

Very very well put. Very similar to what I've been saying on a number of these threads. It's just that a lot of people formed their onw incorrect ideas of what an RPG is, so when they hear the specific breakdown of how RPGs came into being and evolved into video games, they get offended and imediately reject it despite the concepts soundness.

Basically in allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll RPG u need Stats, customization, and variety of choises! WHERE R THOSE STATS IN MASS EFFECT 2 ????????????????????????????

i bet 20 dollars that u wont find them in ME2, i really bet 20 bucks!!

ME2 is an RPG in the truest sense, not because it has or doesnt have dice rolls and stats stats stats, but because you do get to choose a role, sometimes well implemented, sometimes not, but your choosen role affects outcomes to events and how people see your character!

Roleplay is about investigating choices and consequences, more than about mechanics of how a set of arbitary STATs govern outcomes!

Where ME2 (and many current cRPGs) is no longer pure RPG is in the first/third person combat, where some player skill is required to proceed through the actual mechanics of point a gun/hitting the keys in the right combo etc, but even here your chocies have some effect on the outcome (how much in each skill or which bonus skill taken!

ME2 is the current end of a long line of RPGs that I've played and enjoyed, that line started with Traveller, Tunnels & Trolls, Runequest & (A)D&D (v1), through live action, MUDs, to todays cRPGS, both western and japanese/korean!

Roleplay is use as a tool in most business to train people, in many re-education programmes, and in those cases you won't see a stat or a die, all you will see is your given role and a senario to investigate!

Dude i completely agree with u man!!! ur right its role-play

but hey, they made the good balance in the first game!!!!! everybody was pleased!!! the only problem were the bugs. Otherwise a Masterpiece!!!

I love to have stats, wanna make sure i have the best stuff! a quick anecdote, i did once like a 4 hour quest in Baldurs gate 2 just to find a suit for my wizards ... the point is that id do anything to know i have the best stuff!

in ME we had stats, customization and action (the shooting part) ... now they take away 1 part, the stats, the part that alllll the real Bioware fans since their beginning loved!! I feel like betrayed man!! 

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...
To me, this is absolutely not ok, and amounts to an attempt at avoiding a real examination of the origins and developments of RPGs as video games.

Why should the history of the term mean anything? That's not how we determine the meaning of other words.

[sleepforever]

the_one_54321 wrote...

spock06 wrote...
Explain.

I've already explained it to you. Like five times, by now. Are you just not listening, or just completely disregarding it?

dude ur arguments dont make sense!!

a what so called RPG in 1999 was Final Fantasy 7, 8 ... thats pure RPG.

Bioware came with great ideas, Customization Baby!!!

thats y always sticked with them!!! now, and thats what i always try to say, they took away the a customization part to put the emphasis on Action !!!

they always made a good balance! play KOTOR. ull c! play ME 1, play BG 1 and 2 dont come up and tell me its just a role-play ! no, we had customizations!!

[Sageless Ranger]

sleepforever wrote...

spock06 wrote...

Sageless Ranger wrote...

A "real" rpg is one where you have to remember to drink water, and space travel takes five hours real time. Not these huge decisions or visceral combat stuff.

You're right.  I just realized something.  All you people are right.  ME2 isn't a "real" RPG.  

Thank God.

so ........??? now Bioware is the shooter business??? I always came to them for RPG's now, with magic they do it!!! I know for GOD SAKE that Mass Effect isn't an RPG ... but ... WHY R THEY DOING SHOOTERS NOW ??????

tell me whatever u want, ME1 was an RPG, Customization, dialogs (Thats y i LOVE Baldurs gate and Mass Effect) that change the story line, My Stats, the change, now the only thing that matters is Action ................

again, i have PLENTY of  other actions games i dont need another one that the last game was an RPG

Alright calm down, man. ME2 does have many shooter elements, but its hardly a straight shooter. MW2 is shooter, halo is a shooter, gears of war is a third person shooter but how does ME2 compare to those games? lets seen all three have ammo, and ME2 and gow have a cover system. but th similarites end there.

people say that me2 ruined the skills, well if you think about it ,ME2 and ME1 skill systems are quite the same, if not ME2 being more.

both systems have four ranks in each skill, but in ME1 there was a bunch of filler points in between the ranks, rather pointless if you ask me, and in ME2 each skill can branch in two directions, Me1 does offer much more skills for each character though, but honestly, how may do you actually use, and how many acutally make a difference in the game? and you say there is not much choice in ME2, that is just ignorance, I spent at least 3 hours without encountering any action at all, and why was this you say? because I was conversing with people, buying stuff, among other things.

The inventroy system was definitely downngraded for ME2, but  I personally got tiired in ME1 of constanly finding useless items. Regardless the mass effect series was never  truly a shooter or an rpg, it was something fresh and new, with the best storyline too boot. Instead of trying  ti change it too fit what you think a rpg or shooter is, why not relish the game what it is. An amazing story, with characters that you care about, im all for construcitve input, but not people yelling because its not a pure rpg or a pure shooter.  sorry for wall of text rofl

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
To me, this is absolutely not ok, and amounts to an attempt at avoiding a real examination of the origins and developments of RPGs as video games.

Why should the history of the term mean anything? That's not how we determine the meaning of other words.

Which is also not ok. Mild changes are one thing, but fandamental definition changes lead to things like slang becoming accepted grammar. I don't know about you, but I have absolutely no intention of accepting the kind of grammar used in rap videos or any kind of bass acwards half english slang as propper speaking.

[spock06]

the_one_54321 wrote...

spock06 wrote...
Explain.

I've already explained it to you. Like five times, by now. Are you just not listening, or just completely disregarding it?

You haven't explained anything.  You continue to refer to the genre and history of RPGs, yet when I argue your point your ignore it or make strawman claims such as "This is untrue."  "WoW is a bad RPG."  WHY WoW a bad RPG?  According to all the criteria you have given, it should be an excellent RPG?  

[LolaRuns]

Why can't it be a bad RPG to some? Anything where you are first person and shoot guns at things is technically some sort of shooter. But that doesn't mean that there are bad/low quality ones abound. Even if they fullfill the demands of being a shooter excellently.

[the_one_54321]

spock06 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

spock06 wrote...

Explain.

I've already explained it to you. Like five times, by now. Are you just not listening, or just completely disregarding it?

You haven't explained anything. You continue to refer to the genre and history of RPGs, yet when I argue your point your ignore it or make strawman claims such as "This is untrue." "WoW is a bad RPG." WHY WoW a bad RPG? According to all the criteria you have given, it should be an excellent RPG?

I've given you a very explicit explanation of criteria for an RPG label. Despite that, you've inferred things that I have not said, like loot and world structure. At the same time you've consistently listed other aspects (ones that I have agreed make great games) that don't effect the label of RPG. All the while you've listed nothing other than "popular opinion" to support your interpretations.



As to why WoW is a bad RPG, it is because it lacks all those things (like engaging story and interaction, and meaningful plot choices) that make games really enjoyable. WoW fits the bare bones definition of an RPG, but does so in an addictive, and not highly immersive or engaging manner.

[sleepforever]

Sageless Ranger wrote...

sleepforever wrote...

spock06 wrote...

Sageless Ranger wrote...

A "real" rpg is one where you have to remember to drink water, and space travel takes five hours real time. Not these huge decisions or visceral combat stuff.

You're right.  I just realized something.  All you people are right.  ME2 isn't a "real" RPG.  

Thank God.

so ........??? now Bioware is the shooter business??? I always came to them for RPG's now, with magic they do it!!! I know for GOD SAKE that Mass Effect isn't an RPG ... but ... WHY R THEY DOING SHOOTERS NOW ??????

tell me whatever u want, ME1 was an RPG, Customization, dialogs (Thats y i LOVE Baldurs gate and Mass Effect) that change the story line, My Stats, the change, now the only thing that matters is Action ................

again, i have PLENTY of  other actions games i dont need another one that the last game was an RPG

Alright calm down, man. ME2 does have many shooter elements, but its hardly a straight shooter. MW2 is shooter, halo is a shooter, gears of war is a third person shooter but how does ME2 compare to those games? lets seen all three have ammo, and ME2 and gow have a cover system. but th similarites end there.

people say that me2 ruined the skills, well if you think about it ,ME2 and ME1 skill systems are quite the same, if not ME2 being more.

both systems have four ranks in each skill, but in ME1 there was a bunch of filler points in between the ranks, rather pointless if you ask me, and in ME2 each skill can branch in two directions, Me1 does offer much more skills for each character though, but honestly, how may do you actually use, and how many acutally make a difference in the game? and you say there is not much choice in ME2, that is just ignorance, I spent at least 3 hours without encountering any action at all, and why was this you say? because I was conversing with people, buying stuff, among other things.

The inventroy system was definitely downngraded for ME2, but  I personally got tiired in ME1 of constanly finding useless items. Regardless the mass effect series was never  truly a shooter or an rpg, it was something fresh and new, with the best storyline too boot. Instead of trying  ti change it too fit what you think a rpg or shooter is, why not relish the game what it is. An amazing story, with characters that you care about, im all for construcitve input, but not people yelling because its not a pure rpg or a pure shooter.  sorry for wall of text rofl

i swear i used allllllll of my skills !!!! all of them!!!!!! i had much more fun going in front of my ennemies throwing them away, stasis, grenade ....... using my hand gun aaaaaaaaaaaah miss that so bad!!!!

For the inventory damn so i hated allllllllll the previous RPG from bioware and Square-enix??? it was like that b4!!!

no worries man we r to debate!

[Ahglock]

spock06 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

spock06 wrote...
Explain.

I've already explained it to you. Like five times, by now. Are you just not listening, or just completely disregarding it?

You haven't explained anything.  You continue to refer to the genre and history of RPGs, yet when I argue your point your ignore it or make strawman claims such as "This is untrue."  "WoW is a bad RPG."  WHY WoW a bad RPG?  According to all the criteria you have given, it should be an excellent RPG?  

Meeting criteria does not make something good.  It has been explained to you by multiple people but you seem hell bent on disregarding it.  Given how this thread started out with insults it is not a surprise. 

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Which is also not ok. Mild changes are one thing, but fandamental definition changes lead to things like slang becoming accepted grammar. I don't know about you, but I have absolutely no intention of accepting the kind of grammar used in rap videos or any kind of bass acwards half english slang as propper speaking.

What you want and what will happen are not related. Language will do what language does, what language has always done. Proper grammar changes over time. Sometimes slang usage becomes proper grammar, sometimes it doesn't.

Just out of curiosity, what's your stance on split infinitives?

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 février 2010 - 10:58 .

[sleepforever]

n e ways i stop bcs i have to study some micro biology but



hey, they gave us a master pice in the first mass effect, y dont they keep it lke that as they alllllllllllways did with the games b4??????



so dumb!! Casey Hudson leave ur job bro, leave the real guys like the producers of KOTOR, Jade Empire, Baldurs gate 1 and 2 teaching u !!!!

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Which is also not ok. Mild changes are one thing, but fandamental definition changes lead to things like slang becoming accepted grammar. I don't know about you, but I have absolutely no intention of accepting the kind of grammar used in rap videos or any kind of bass acwards half english slang as propper speaking.

What you want and what will happen are not related. Language will do what language does, what language has always done. Proper grammar changes over time. Sometimes slang usage becomes proper grammar, sometimes it doesn't.

Just out of curiosity, what's your stance on split infinitives?

Please PM that question to me as a reminder. I have to go to class now, but I will answer you when time permits.

[SsevenN]

For me an RPG is a game of two things. And please remember, this is just an opinion.



First, the causation of your characters power level in game should be directly correlated to your level and skills. IE the character determins your strength, not your twitch reflexes.



Second, the characters that I create should be inherently unique in playstyle, equipment, and quest solving. There should be enough in-game room and depth for development that NO two characters should end up using the same items/skills/tactics, or looking the same.



As much as I love ME2, none of the inherent RPG qualites I'm looking for are there.

[spock06]

Ahglock wrote...

spock06 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

spock06 wrote...
Explain.

I've already explained it to you. Like five times, by now. Are you just not listening, or just completely disregarding it?

You haven't explained anything.  You continue to refer to the genre and history of RPGs, yet when I argue your point your ignore it or make strawman claims such as "This is untrue."  "WoW is a bad RPG."  WHY WoW a bad RPG?  According to all the criteria you have given, it should be an excellent RPG?  

Meeting criteria does not make something good.  It has been explained to you by multiple people but you seem hell bent on disregarding it.  Given how this thread started out with insults it is not a surprise. 

I'm not hell bent on disregarding anything.  All I want is a reasonable explanation as to why an RPG must fit into the D&D molding, which is what I feel has been implied by the one and others, although they have not explictly said so.  I have not insulted anyone who has not insulted me.  I simply feel as though RPGs do not have to be confined into a specific box, anything outside of the box being labeled as a "only halfway RPG" and mocked by the "purists".  Personally, we can debate this all we want, but BioWare undoubtedly knows more about RPGs than any of us and they are the ones making the games so this is all pointless.  It is a good way to waste time at work though