43 réponses à ce sujet

[earl of the north]

Having played through the game a few times I've come to some conclusions about Ostagar.

1. Loghain planned to sacrifce the Grey Wardens at Ostagar.

Loghain's plan allowed him to control who was lost at Ostagar and he was certainly planning to get rid of the Grey Wardens and was willing to sacrifice part of his army to do so.

2. Loghain's men at the tower.

I assume the men at the tower were supposed to signal the death of the Grey Wardens, rather than the time to attack after the battle started.  Cailan's decision to fight in the front line with the GWs meant Loghain had to either sacrifice the chance to rid himself of the GWs or sacrifice the King......and he chose to sacrifice the king.

I think Loghain initially planned to attack at the head of his best troops (with Cailan)  who were with him in the main camp, after the death of the GWs. Smashing the darkspawn with a flank attack and winning another victory to cement his reputation as the great general.

Cailan would probably be deeply shaken by the loss of his heroes and the news that his main ally at court Arl Eamon was dead, this would have allowed Loghain to cement his position and maybe even convince Cailan to abandon his plans for an Orlesian alliance.

For Loghain the battle of Ostagar could have been a great victory with the darkspawn incursion defeated, his anti Olesian faction in the ascendancy at court and a King more inclined to listen to his general from now on.......Cailan's decision to fight with the Grey Wardens forced Loghain to modify his plans and his decision to abandon the king ultimately doomed him.

Modifié par earl of the north, 01 février 2010 - 07:47 .

[BelSirk]

The way i see it: The Grey Warden didn't mean too much to Loghain, Cailin was the BIG ; BIG PROBLEM , he was been a foolish little kid playing to be hero without caring putting his own nation under Orlais control again. That was enough for Loghain to let Cailan's dream kill him. Logain cave the "lower chamber" of the Tower for let the Darkspawn get inside and never get the signal (ops, damn grey warden ).



After all, Cailan was a very bad general, didn'0t wait to have full men of his own nation but didn't had problem using other forces. the grey warden wasn't a problem because they didn't have alliance (Except on their homeland but it's very far) BUT Cailan was the son of his best friend, was a hard choice and each step was trying to put Cailan on the correct way without success (EVEN the grey warden told him to wait before the fight).



The only good choice he took was send his half-brother a "safe" place



I take this because on the Landsmeet if you try to get down Logain reputation (about trying to kill Maric's son) you lost the vote. You must scary the banns with the wrong choices of Loghain and the blight for win, so Loghain was already on a high place on Fereledern

[Clumber]

What you're forgetting though, BelSirk, is that Loghain tried to convince Cailin not to fight on the front lines. At the Landsmeet he seems to truly believe it was the Grey Wardens who got Cailin killed because they got him all worked up, looking for a glorious battle.



The Grey Wardens were definitely the enemy Loghain was trying to destroy at Ostegar. I doubt he actually allowed the Darkspawn into the tower, his own men were stationed there anyway so he would have had full control on when/if they lit the signal (until the Grey Wardens of course)



What I don't understand though is what Loghain's plan was if Cailin decided NOT to fight with the Wardens. Retreat wouldn't have been an option since Cailin would be there to give commands, so I can only assume Loghain's sudden retreat was never planned at all. He probably realized charging the Darkspawn would do more harm than good, so he retreated so the army could live to fight another day, when they could be at more of an advantage.

[Doyle41]

All Loghain had to do is to refuse to bring his troops. that may have made Cailan change his plans.



I found it strange that after all the years, Loghain hasd just discoverd chambers under the tower. there was also a hole in the floor of the tower. Interestingly enough darkspawn overtook the tower. weird coincedence I suppose.



Loghain had plenty reason to hate the Wardens and Orlais. However, he should never have betrayed his friends or his country in the manner he did.



Loghain was going to retreat no matter what. If his men lit the tower, it was for him to retreat, because that would mean he was needed. That the king was getting routed. However, when the beacon was lit by the Wardens, he knew it was still time to go because they were getting destroyed. He never had intentions fighting. He wanted to prove at the Landsmeet that the Wardens were overated and weren't necessary in Fereldan.

[BelSirk]

Clumber wrote...

What you're forgetting though, BelSirk, is that Loghain tried to convince Cailin not to fight on the front lines. At the Landsmeet he seems to truly believe it was the Grey Wardens who got Cailin killed because they got him all worked up, looking for a glorious battle.

The Grey Wardens were definitely the enemy Loghain was trying to destroy at Ostegar. I doubt he actually allowed the Darkspawn into the tower, his own men were stationed there anyway so he would have had full control on when/if they lit the signal (until the Grey Wardens of course)

What I don't understand though is what Loghain's plan was if Cailin decided NOT to fight with the Wardens. Retreat wouldn't have been an option since Cailin would be there to give commands, so I can only assume Loghain's sudden retreat was never planned at all. He probably realized charging the Darkspawn would do more harm than good, so he retreated so the army could live to fight another day, when they could be at more of an advantage.

I was saying that! Loghain try to avoid to kill maric's son but hadn't success at all, so," the big menace to Ferelden must die even if he is the son of my best friend and  great king " The Grey warden wasn't a menace, witouth a responde of Cailen they would fight alone or wit hthe other alliances (elven, dwarven and maybe the circle )  BUT  they get not just the aproval of Maric's son (Who let the grey warden return)  BUT  the new king was a fairy-boy, EVEN was a  beatiful face mean the Queen rule.

Again, the most dangerous enemy for Loghain at Ostagar, was the foolish of Calin to let the Orlain return with not less than Their most powerful units  (and a greater numbeR) to the same Fereldern's heart. It's like when Cortes get inside of Tenochitlan, the fear of Moctezuma let  less than 200 men take the heart of the Imperium like nothing. (well on DA case was more: The love of fantasy or war of the olds but the same dangerous problem). That was the true  problem, let the war agianst some darkspawn was a thing. LET  ORLAIN RETURN WAS ANOTHER, and  again, only grey warden were sure about the fight was a Blight and not a suddenly excursion of darkspawn

[earl of the north]

Loghain sees the Grey Wardens as Orleisian agents through out the game (and apparently since Maric allowed their return), all the way up to the point you smack him around at the Landsmeet. There is nothing in game to back up that belief, nor is Orlais standing around waiting to conquer Fereldan, Loghain is stuck 30 years ago, determined to refight the last war rather than dealing with the blight.



Loghain's original plan of attacking the darkspawn in the flank and rear as they attacked the troops holding Ostagar would have probably worked if he had gone through with it, he seems to have changed his mind without telling his second in command or really planning what to do next after Cailan's death.



There were chambers under the tower (pre RTO I thought this was a simple hole for the darkspawn to enter), how Loghain's men found out about them is a mystery but opening them up to the darkspawn would have left Loghain open to attack. The darkspawn would have been able to use bow fire from the bridge, but to reach the Fereldan army they would have had to go through the main camp where Loghain was located.

[Mistersunshine]

I think that Loghain knew that he had to orchestrate Cailan's death in order to prevent Ferelden from getting into bed, politically, with the Orlesians again. I think that Loghain saw any involvement with Orlais as the absolute worst, most dangerous thing that could possibly happen to Ferelden (read The Stolen Throne for his very good reasons), and that his agenda was entirely focused on that. I think that Loghain could be considered a single-minded anti-Orlais fanatic, and all of his choices and actions arose from that stance. He couldn't talk Cailan out of opening Ferelden's doors to Orlesian forces, so he finally came to the conclusion that he had no choice but to be rid of the king. I don't think he was happy about it, or sinister, or malicious, but felt that it was the only choice.

[Behindyounow]

I think it was to get that idiot Cailan out of the way. I would've done the same thing in his position.

[earl of the north]

As I said I think Loghain originally planned only to wipe out the Fereldan Grey Wardens, if it was Loghain's plan all along to kill Cailan at Ostagar there were easier ways to do it, not least suggesting Cailan lead a scouting mission, poisoning Cailan in camp (wouldn't be the first king to die in camp), taking him up the tower to show him the view etc.

Putting all the Fereldan Grey Wardens in one place where they could be overwhelmed by the darkspawn, then Loghain could win a big victory and be the big hero again seems to fit the battle of Ostagar more than an attempt to kill Cailan.......oh Loghain, took the opportunity (due to Cailan's glory hunting) but I dont think it was his original plan. Not least because he seems to have done no planning on what would happen after Cailan's death at Ostagar, except to abandon the south and proclaim himself regent.

Modifié par earl of the north, 02 février 2010 - 09:43 .

[nubbers666]

so did any 1 else see the betrayal coming or wut cause i thought something was up when i frist spoke with him

[Klystron]

Loghain's motives are puzzling.

He doesn't mind putting the GWs in front and losing some of them to darkspawn, but if Loghain's motivation was primarily to wipe out the GWs as Orlesian agents or sympathizers, he would have agreed to wait for the Orlesian GWs to show up and gotten rid if them especially.

Nor was his original intent to get rid of Cailan (he tries to talk Cailan out of fighting on the front lines). But when Cailan insists on being alongside the GWs, and the darkspawn assault is much bigger than previous nights, Loghain sees an opportunity to get rid of some "inconvenient" people and save his own troops. He seems to see this opportunity coming at the camp meeting ("Yes, a glorious moment for us all.") but doesn't decide until the last minute.

That's my theory anyway.

(edit: formatting)

Modifié par Klystron, 02 février 2010 - 11:27 .

[earl of the north]

I think he turns away the Orlesian GW's because they have 4 legions of Orlesians troops with them.



So yeah, either he planned to rid himself of those he viewed as the main threat or he simply see the opportunity and takes it....either way it seems to be a much smaller scale plan, as in killing a small number of GW rather than killing his king.



The lighting of the signal fire is strange since Loghain is in the fortified camp right next to the battle, I assume he's seeing everything except the fight within the gap and his guard were supposed to signal him when the time is right. However its up to Loghain to tell his troops guarding the tower what that right moment was (darkspawn fully committed, GW dead, King in trouble etc) to light the beacon. The darkspawn in the tower seems to have upset both the official plan and also Loghain's opportunistic power play since Loghain is also waiting for the signal tower rather than just withdrawing.

[RobinMichelleB]

I think Loghain's plan was set long before you meet him at the Ostagar camp. (Note that I haven't played RtO yet, since I have a PS3, so there might be more there that I could add later.)

1. Arl Eamon falls ill before the battle at Ostagar, and you know that Loghain was the one who ordered it because Jowan tells you this (and regardless of Jowan's reputation, there is no reason to believe he is lying). Loghain was trying to get rid of one of the men who would most ardently oppose him after the events at Ostagar.

2. Loghain's men were in charge of the Tower of Ishal. The guard tells you this if you ask him. He also seems skeptical about the lower chambers that were found. I think Loghain opened up the lower chambers to let the darkspawn into the tower. I then think he would have claimed (if something had gone awry and he had someone to explain to) that the men didn't light the signal because they were overrrun by darkspawn.

3. Of course, this plan changes a little when Alistair and your character are sent to the tower. Loghain covers for this by telling anyone who will listen that the Grey Wardens are traitors (note that practically no one believes it). This is his just in case scenario. That way, if any Wardens survive, it already seems like he's told the "truth."

4. Was Loghain involved in Howe's plans to get rid of the Couslands? Possibly. If you are a human noble and you talk to Loghain before the battle at Ostagar, he tells you he knows about the king's promise to bring justice to Howe, so he clearly knows what Howe did. It could have been a move to get rid of the Couslands, who based on their history (and Bryce's comments at the beginning of the game to Howe) would have supported the king. However, I am not completely sold on this point. It could also just be that Howe offered himself as a loyal subject just when Loghain needed one. However, I would be wary of a man claiming to be loyal who just slaughtered the entire family of his supposed best friend.

5. While I do not believe that Loghain's initial idea was to kill the king (he definitely tries to talk Cailan off the front lines), I think he had to imagine that this was the most likely outcome. I think he definitely wanted to get rid of the Wardens because they were all for calling from help from Orlais. He was also sore with Cailan because Cailan was having an affair with the empress of Orlais (potential disgrace for Loghain's daughter and alliance with Orlais must not have made him happy), so I think in the end, he really didn't care that the king died. I do think his retreat was premeditated, because at the end of the meeting, he says to Cailan, "A glorious moment for us all." This clearly implies that now that the plan is set, he knows what is going to happen.

In my opinion, whether or not the battle was winnable is a moot point. We can't know that for certain, because things didn't happen the way they were planned. What Loghain did was betray his king and his country, although he clearly doesn't think that. That's why (at least on a good character), I can never spare him.

Modifié par RobinMichelleB, 02 février 2010 - 11:45 .

[earl of the north]

RobinMichelleB wrote...

I think Loghain's plan was set long before you meet him at the Ostagar camp. (Note that I haven't played RtO yet, since I have a PS3, so there might be more there that I could add later.)

1. Arl Eamon falls ill before the battle at Ostagar, and you know that Loghain was the one who ordered it because Jowan tells you this (and regardless of Jowan's reputation, there is no reason to believe he is lying). Loghain was trying to get rid of one of the men who would most ardently oppose him after the events at Ostagar.

True, althrough I would say the removal of Arl Eamon could also because he's pushing Cailan to put aside Anora removing Loghain's main hold over the throne.

2. Loghain's men were in charge of the Tower of Ishal. The guard tells you this if you ask him. He also seems skeptical about the lower chambers that were found. I think Loghain opened up the lower chambers to let the darkspawn into the tower. I then think he would have claimed (if something had gone awry and he had someone to explain to) that the men didn't light the signal because they were overrrun by darkspawn.

I thought that pre RTO, but the problem is opening the tower would have left the darkspawn free to cross the bridge and attack him in the main camp.....althrough that might have been a part of his plan.

5. While I do not believe that Loghain's initial idea was to kill the king (he definitely tries to talk Cailan off the front lines), I think he had to imagine that this was the most likely outcome. I think he definitely wanted to get rid of the Wardens because they were all for calling from help from Orlais. He was also sore with Cailan because Cailan was having an affair with the empress of Orlais (potential disgrace for Loghain's daughter and alliance with Orlais must not have made him happy), so I think in the end, he really didn't care that the king died. I do think his retreat was premeditated, because at the end of the meeting, he says to Cailan, "A glorious moment for us all." This clearly implies that now that the plan is set, he knows what is going to happen.

In my opinion, whether or not the battle was winnable is a moot point. We can't know that for certain, because things didn't happen the way they were planned. What Loghain did was betray his king and his country, although he clearly doesn't think that. That's why (at least on a good character), I can never spare him.

One thing on the supposed affair with the empress of Orlais, I have yet to see any proof that they had ever even met face to face, never mind have an affair....RTO points to an early stage in a possible alliance, even a possible friendship beginning between Cailan and Celene, no evidence of an affair.

Modifié par earl of the north, 02 février 2010 - 11:58 .

[esabria]

Ferelden's best interest was always in Loghain's mind, even if the ways were blunt. If you read the calling, there is a scene when maric is inside the mage's tower, when the first enchanter wanted to use him as shield, maric himself told that loghain wouldn't sacrifice fereldan's good for one man. not even himself. And that if he thought otherwise, he didn't know loghain at all.



I personally believe that loghain did what had to do for his goals, but those goals at the moment were the wrong ones.

[jsachun]

It his hatred of Orlai that makes him, but also undoes him. RTO confirms that Cailan had a pact with the Orlesian Emperess.

Modifié par jsachun, 02 février 2010 - 12:44 .

[earl of the north]

It confirms the that Cailan was forming an alliance with Orlais to combat the blight......there is no evidence in RTO that they were having an affair or indeed that they had even met in person.

Modifié par earl of the north, 02 février 2010 - 01:28 .

[maxernst]

I haven't played RtO and am wondering what exactly s the story that Loghain brings from Ostagar? I know he says the Grey Wardens betrayed the king, but his army was with him so he didn't see anything they didn't. If the Grey Wardens betrayed the king how would he even know? Does he have some fake survivor of the battle tell the story? Is he claiming that he knew the GW's evil plot beforehand and the King refused to acknowledge his warnings? It still seems a bit far-fetched without any collaborating evidence.



RobinMichelleB--I agree with all of your points except maybe #5--he probably knew he wouldn't convince Callen not to fight on the front lines anyway, so it was just part of the general tone of sounding the note of caution. In particular, I do suspect Loghain to be behind Arl Howe and am surprised more people don't draw that connection.



One last piece of evidence that Loghain's plan goes back before Ostagar is that he had promised to support Uldred. Now I guess that could have happened after Ostagar, but I would think for him to be aware enough of what was going on at the Tower to have forged alliances, he must have been making overtures to the blood mages before Ostagar. He had already met Jowan at least.



And Katie916, yes, I thought it was obvious from the look on his face at the meeting that he had no intention of following through with the plan as stated. I felt it was too blatant, actually, and removed any element of surprise.

[RobinMichelleB]

True, althrough I would say the removal of Arl Eamon could also because he's pushing Cailan to put aside Anora removing Loghain's main hold over the throne.

Yeah, that could be a definite possibility. One of the interesting rumors you can hear during the game is that Anora is barren and that it is a curse for bringing a commoner into the royal line. So there might be some pressure from that angle too.

One thing on the supposed affair with the empress of Orlais, I have yet to see any proof that they had ever even met face to face, never mind have an affair....RTO points to an early stage in a possible alliance, even a possible friendship beginning between Cailan and Celene, no evidence of an affair.

I think Anora points you in the affair direction, although I have never gotten the dialogue myself, just heard about it. I'm not sure if she specifically implicates the empress or just says that he was having an affair. Either way, yeah, there was something going on between them, whether romantic or not, and obviously Loghain would have a problem with that.

[RobinMichelleB]

RobinMichelleB--I agree with all of your points except maybe #5--he probably knew he wouldn't convince Callen not to fight on the front lines anyway, so it was just part of the general tone of sounding the note of caution. In particular, I do suspect Loghain to be behind Arl Howe and am surprised more people don't draw that connection.

I think you're probably right, but appearances and all. LoL If you talk to the guard outside Cailan's tent, he'll constantly talk about how Loghain and Cailan fight, although he won't say about what (he briefly mentions the queen, but won't go into detail). And Loghain himself is rather nonchalant when he tells you he disapproves of the king fighting with the Grey Wardens.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Loghain was behind Howe! I'm sure from a larger perspective, no one else knows what happen. Only you know, and you don't exactly go around telling everybody. But Loghain knows for sure. And admits it to your face. Jerk!

[Solica]

I think the plan for the beacon was to have an excuse. Loghain need to be able to explain why he charged so late, or never. So he always planned that the beacon wouldn't be lit. The hole in the floor would maybe in turn be his explanation why the beacon was never lit.

I'm inclined to believe this, partly because that was my initial impression of Loghain, already at the war council. But also because I interpreted it as if his men had already abandoned the tower, when my PC arrived. All this first impressions and first conclusions doubtless affects my objectivity.

But there are other reasons; Loghain's battle plan is simple and cliché, but sound enough. But for it to work, he and his forces need to be hidden. And if he is hidden, then he can't see. I thought all of this was selfevident, and in itself an explanation for the need of a beacon.

But rather late, the developers decided to divulge new "information" in the forum. Loghain suddenly supposedly can see part of the battlefield. This detail is troublesome. It may at first seem convenient, if one wants to (belately) change the situation at Ostagar, from having been a clear betrayal, to instead suggest that maybe the battle couldn't be won anyway.

But such change does not come easy: Why does Loghain wait until the beacon lights, and then leaves? One very immediate, tempting, rational explanation is that he didn't want to charge, and was surprised and disappointed at the sudden signal. His excuse is now blown and there is no longer any possibility of pretending to wait for a signal. And he can't just passively stand there. Doing so would just reinforce the obvious impression of betrayal.

Now also try this: If he could see part of the battlefield, then the king would also have been able to see the battlefield, if he had stood with Loghain, as so many contends was Loghain's plan. And if he had done so, then surely he wouldn't have accepted just standing there, watching the grey Wardens be slaughtered?

So what is it to be?
1: He left because he thinks the battle can't be won: (He alone is in that case personally responsible for that. He has made sure Arl Eamon's forces and the Orlesian reinforcements aren't there.) He stands with his forces in view of the darkspawn. What kind of ambush or tactical surprise is that? Why does he wait? Why does he leave at the moment the beacon lights up? If he was so overwhelmed, why does he afterwards persist in instigating a civil war and believe that it  "isn't a real Blight"?

2: He left because he planned to have the Grey Wardens massacred, but not to kill the king: What was he planning to tell the king, then? If the king had been standing with him? And the king can now also see the battle. He's still the king, you know, and can remove Loghain from command immediately.

3: He intends to have both the King and the Wardens killed. Fine, except he can still see part of the battle, so then his second in command and his soldiers can too. This is trouble, but it still holds up. He intends to use the lack of signal as an excuse to be too late, and it'll probably work.  ...He and his forces can also be seen by the darkspawn. But maybe the darkspawn can't see them until they're too deep into the valley and too committed. Maybe the darkspawn doesn't care to employ scouts.

In any case, it's only reasonable to think that he in any case always intended to charge, if he felt certain the battle could still be won, despite him being late. I mean, really, why wouldn't he? So the problem remains that he leaves when the beacon lights up! The highly visible suggestion, - is that the beacon is too early. Not too early for the battle plan, ofc. (a guess on that is rather that it might be somewhat late, but we don't know that). But too early to have all the Wardens and the king killed.

So IMO, the fact that he's now supposed to have been able to see part of the battlefield, doesn't change anything. Rather, it reinforces the case for the battle to have been winnable.
The explanation that seem to have the least problems, is that Howe didn't exactly "act alone". He was aware that he, for certain reasons, would get away with it. That Loghain always intended to have both the king and Wardens betrayed and killed. That he intended the beacon to never be lit. That his suggestions that the king should not be with the Wardens, are never sincere and not as strong as they should have been. But I don't doubt other explanations are possible.

Was the battle winnable? There's really no reason to think that it wasn't, because Loghain leaves when the signal comes! He does not leave before. That suggests he still intends to charge and win, when it's too late to save the Wardens. And he also doesn't stay even one minute longer to observe and evaluate a battle he supposedly couldn't win? Why does the signal change his world? Isn't the most reasonable explanation that the battle really was winnable? But the signal too early for the darkspawn to have finished with Loghain's intentions? That, is why he is forced to leave? He can't first dally and delay, and then, later, charge and win. That would truly expose his murderous treachery.

Despite a lot of forum claims, RtO provides no proof. It's just hearsay and opinion from chars who never were in position to know. Alistair and the PC, otoh, were in the tower, with great overview, and implicitly thinks the battle was winnable.
Duncan and the Grey Wardens know that they are indispensible for defeating the Blight. And they can sense the darkspawn. If the battle was truly lost, even without Loghain's betrayal, would they not have sensed it enough to consider it a risk? And if they considered it a risk, why didn't they refuse the plan and the battle? Since they would know the consequence would be that the Blight could not be ended?
Duncan just meekly says that he can't go against his king. - Now, If he truly considered a defeat a real possibility, he'd rather assassinate both Cailan and Loghain and whoever it takes, rather than risk having the Warden's exterminated!
But Alistair and the PC in the tower, you say? Nope! Doesn't work. If the battle is lost, they have no chance of escape. They're as dead as all the rest. Only Flemeth's intervention saved them.

 I don't doubt that it's very, very difficult to write a game story like this, which is intentionally so ambigiuos. I'm convinced it's impossible to do so without leaving some logical holes. I also think such logical holes often actually are "realistic", in a way. If you look at reality, you often see that it, too, leaves a lot of "plot holes". There's simply too much we don't know in detail. We make false assumptions. We depend on information that is false in details. Reality can be stranger than we can visualize. "Human factor". Etc. Even reality is maybe not always as "rational" as we think a game story should be.

Personally, I think there's a kind of role-play comfort in not knowing everything. Your PC has to make up it's mind, some way or other, without certainty. There's no God-like absolute knowledge.
But even so, I still think it's worthwhile to mull the details.

Modifié par Solica, 02 février 2010 - 10:14 .

[Degrey Nightstalker]

 After reading Stolen Throne and Dragon Age: The Calling, the reasoning for Loghain doing what he did at Ostagar is very simple he despises the Orlesian Empire, and he was all ways suspicious of the wardens and why would he not be they after all came from Orlais. It is common place for the Orlesian's to use spies and assassins, to further their own ends so from his experiences the Blight was not the real threat to Fereldon, the threat as he saw it was clearly the Orlesian forces that where going to be in Fereldon after the Blight was defeated, he could see would Fereldons armies be strong enough to remove them if they didn't leave after the Blight was over. 

His motivations where from his perspective clearly in the best interest of his country, the country he and Meric freed and gave up so much for personally, I don't think he intended for Cailan to die to see that he could protect his home land from the Orlesian threat he preceived, it was a unfortunate turn of events, after all Cailan was the son of his best friend and the women he loved Queen Rowan. Who he gave up willing for the best of his country Fereldon, simply Loghain was motivated by hatred for the Orlesians and he would not allow things to develop into a situation where Fereldon would be subservient to the forces of Orlais, which would see suffering to the people he gave up so much for, when he became involved in the revolution to depose the Usurper King and puppet of the Orlesian Emperor. He possibly believed that Cailan was under the influence of Orlesians and that he was blinded or enchanted by the Grey Wardens who where using his fathers links with them to further the Orlesian purpose. 

Modifié par Degrey Nightstalker, 02 février 2010 - 10:36 .

[Doyle41]

Loghain was a selfish, reckless general with no regard for the best of Ferelden, despite what he may portray.



Why jeopardize the king, if Orlais is a threat? This would certainly leave an opening for an attack admidst the turmoil to ensue. He doesn't believe a blight is among them, despite large hordes of darkspawn that they are encountering.



Why sacrifice so many Ferelden soldiers against the darkspawn, and civil war if you are concernerned about Orlais. Appearently there was enough force to halt the Olesian GW and chevalier from entering with Loghain's forces in Ostager.



Loghain had to know of Howe's plot. I'm sure Howe told Loghain that the Couslands were in support of the king and Grey Wardens.



Why would Loghain care if Cailan died? His daughter would assume full power and do as her father wished. He told Cailan not to fight with the Wardens as a cover in front of the other generals present as an alibi. Further evidence, Loghain knew Alister, "the half-blooded prince", was Marics son, and a GW. Loghain didn't mind sacrificing him and also trying to kill him later on also.



Just as Flemeth predicted, "Loghain would betray Maric." He did. He killed Maric's son and tried to kill the other. Maric allowed the GW back to Ferelden, he also opened negotiations with Orlais. Loghain went against everything Maric wanted.



I'm not sure exactly all that Flemeth told Maric, but I think he said that it was at a great cost. One would only imagine if Flemith had arranged with Maric to save Alister from the tower?

[RangerSG]

RobinMichelleB,



Two points. DG has stated that Loghain did *not* know or approve of the Cousland massacre beforehand. That was all Rendon Howe. He presented it to Loghain fait accompli and Loghain was stuck with having to deal with it because they were in bed already.



Second, I don't think Loghain meant for the Tower lighting to fail. I absolutely believe the battleplan was meant to get the Wardens killed. He thought (with cause) that the Wardens were playing politics with Orlais, and when he heard that the Orlesian Wardens wanted to bring Chevalliers with, that was waving the proverbial red flag. He was aghast that Cailan wanted to man the front lines. He didn't want Cailan dead. But he also remembered his promise to Maric. So if the King died, he died.

[Asylumer]

Solica wrote...

I think the plan for the beacon was to have an excuse. Loghain need to be able to explain why he charged so late, or never. So he always planned that the beacon wouldn't be lit. The hole in the floor would maybe in turn be his explanation why the beacon was never lit.

This idea requires that most of Loghain's forces to not know who was responsible for the lighting of the tower and/or to be a part of a conspiracy, otherwise people would ask why the signal wasn't lit in the first place if they knew Loghain's people were in charge of it.

How feasible this would be in a single camp where the soldiers were likely to have a basic idea of who's been assigned to where, is up to you. Certainly modern militaries try to use good OPSEC to prevent enemies from obtaining intelligence but A) they were fighting the Darkspawn who've shown no interest in acquiring intelligence from what they could see and If you see your friend Joe go into the Tower before the battle, you can assume he's there for a reason, and if you hear about the beacon during the briefing, it doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together.

You may argue that Loghain prepped the lower chambers to lure the Darkspawn into the tower, while also assuming that he had the knowledge of how to do such a thing, but even then he'd be hard pressed to explain how he came to know the tower was overrun and get his troops out of there in time. Did survivors make it from the tower to Loghain? Ok, that might work if he used only a small force of men who were prepared to lie about seeing the Darkspawn and never actually put themselves in danger, but you'd still have to consider the other aspects of that plan.

How did Loghain know the Darkspawn would break through in time to stop the beacon and not beforehand? Just how much control does he have when it comes to manipulating them? Did he capture and hold several Darkspawn down there to be released later? Did a mage somehow perform a spell that would override the Blight's control, somehow find Darkspawn already below the tower, and cause them to attack? There'd be a lot of variance depending on how close the nearest Darkspawn were. How could they guarantee they caught enough Darkspawn to successfully take the tower? How did they know the Darkspawn would come from underneath?

How is that a workable plan without an incredibly powerful spell that can control Darkspawn in a precise way? How likely is it that Loghain would use the spell then, and then not use it when fighting the Darkspawn later on?