43 réponses à ce sujet

[Degrey Nightstalker]

Asylumer is right its way to complicated to be a realistic proposal for use in a battle situation, the Darkspawn come from underground so its likely they where just doing what they do and used the tower as a point of entry to break the back line of the king's forces. It just so happened that it was the point from which the beacon was to signal the attack by Loghain's forces.

I simply think Loghain's retreat was a result of him seeing that the battle was lost the King and his men where over run and no matter what he and his troops couldn't make a slight difference against the horde out numbered as they where.



Howe used Loghain and the blight to his own end and was driven by greed, Loghain's actions are driven by hatred and he was simply blinded to the dangers the Darkspawn posed in the light of the threat he perceived from Orlais armies being in Fereldon. After Ostagar events simply spiralled out of control, with Howe manipulating the situation to gain wealth and power, Loghain being blinded to the blight in fear of the Orlesian's and to him it was clear that it was the Wardens who lead the King to his death on the battle field. He did all he could to change his mind, the King was to blame for his own death by being overly confident the forces at Ostagar where to small to cut a path through the horde to the Archdeamon who had not even shown its self yet. The hatred of other towards Loghain is justified as he walked away from the battle and lived to raise greater forces. The mater of the Orlaisian's forces coming to Fereldon was something he could not allow and this was his biggest downfall he feared one threat over the over and Darkspawn was the greater threat but he could not allow Orlaisian forces on Fereldon soil again.

[earl of the north]

While Loghain could probably see a lot of the battlefield from the main camp, we wouldn't be able to see the gap where the kings forces were fighting.....this is easy to see if you load up Ostagar and look over the edge of the ruins. Loghain's view from the main camp is actually very restricted, he could of course have men watching from the upper levels of the ruins to report on the battle.

On the tower, there is no way for the darkspawn to reach the back line of the kings forces without crossing the bridge and going through Loghain in the main camp, which is why I've changed my opinion on Loghain somehow using the darkspawn. Opening up the lower levels might have been a planned cover story since the guard outside has been told there are lower levels but has never seen any when he was in the tower himself.

I think the tower was supposed to signal that the king was dead (originally it would be to signal the GW's were dead) and it was time for stage two of Loghian's plan. I assume he had someone he trusted in command of the tower, who was to see the death of Loghain's foes, light the signal and then withdraw back across the bridge and join up with Loghain.

I don't think Loghain ever knows the tower has fallen to darkspawn and assumes his men have lit the beacon and probably killed the two Grey Wardens sent to the tower by Cailan.

Modifié par earl of the north, 03 février 2010 - 12:57 .

[Degrey Nightstalker]

The flanking of Loghain's forces and the archers on the rampart between the tower and the camp is ideal as a flanking strategy as it removes the kings advantage of archers firing down on the Darkspawn and pulls men away that could reinforce the King's position and stop the Darkspawn advance. Where better to have a second line for the Darkspawn they can be reinforced from underground and push their foes into a small area and attack from multiple sides also cutting off an area to retreat from.

Over all the problem is within the story there are a number of foes that use the Blight to their own advantage and Loghain's position is he is doing what he believes is right and in the best interest for his country. If he wished Cailan dead he could have him poisoned and blame it on the Orlesian's and use that to confirm his take over of the country. I believe he feared what Cailans choices would lead to and Howe used this to his advantage for personal gains. Arl Eamon was seen as a traitor and under the control of the Orlesian's through his wife and he was supporting Cailan's choices so needed removing. Once this was done and the Wardens where dead Loghain would be able to simply talk sense to Cailan and make him see his action where rash and that they needed to unite to defeat the blight but not with the Orlesian's who Loghain hates and would never see in his home land again. Loghain's retreat was proberbly preplanned but more than likely involved taking the King with him as he would see the wardens he had put so much faith in had failed. Cailans death was ultimately his own fault seeking similar glories his father had, Cailan grew up listening to stories of the glories of his father and Loghain and more than likely sort danger and glories of his own to confirm he was just as great as Meric. Meric's sword was there o that Cailan could use it to slay the Archdeamon so he was blinded by the glory of battle,
This all said it is not to say I agree with Loghain's actions but I do see he believed they where in the best of Fereldon and that Cailan was blinded by stories and glory and was allowing himself to be led astray as his father Meric had by others and was endangering the country in the process.
Along side all this Howe and others used the whole situation to further their own ends and Loghain's position worsened as wardens where alive and recruiting forces and the Lords where defying him as many where asking questions about Howe's actions and what he was doing to further his fortunes.

Modifié par Degrey Nightstalker, 03 février 2010 - 01:47 .

[Doyle41]

If Orlais was truly a threat and Loghain feared them invading so, why even send troops to Ostagar?

What army prevented the GW and Chevalier from entering? Eamon wouldn't have prevented them? Loghain had his troops in Ostagar. Couslands troops were slain at Highever while the others were in the Kacari wilds with Fergus, I assume. So that would leave Howe's troops to prevent entry. Did not appear at the Landsmeet that other Arls would halt them either. That is minus the elite guard that was with Howe that killed the Couslands off. Like I sad before, if you are woried about Orlesian that much, you would not attempt to start a civil war and fight darkspawn simultaneously. He stated Cailan was overconfident, but it sounds as Lghain is exactly that. His over confidence could easily be the downfall of Ferelden.

[Carodej]

I've read the books and played the game and all the DLC, plus seen posts from the dves here.  Based on all that, Loghain does not care about Ferelden or its people.  He is a very hard man, not given to much emotion.  However, he does have at least one very strong passion, and that is his hate of Orlais and all things Orlesian.  It's understandable based on what he saw was done to his mother as well as how it was part of the reason he lived like a poor outlaw much of his early life.

Loghain never trusted the GWs.  He had no valid reason for this, it's just part of his Orlesian paranoia.  As an effective plan of battle to maximize darkspawn kills and minimize Ferelden casualties, his "plan" was incredibly poor.  The flanking part of the plan was the only "smart" thing about it.  Everything else seems to have been done in about the worst possible way for an optimal victory.

OTOH, the set up was perfect to allow the GWs to be killed.  As well as high casualties among whatever troops were stationed with them.  Those other troops were most likely those of men who were most loyal to the crown combined with those least competent.  This would have been done because win or lose, those troops were going to take a beating and if Cailan was still alive after Ostagar, Loghain wanted Cailan's supporters as weak as possible.  This ties into the poisoning of Eamon.  As David Gaider has pointed out here, Loghain was planning on a confrontation of some sorts with Cailan, and Loghain had been trying to "win" this confrontation before it occurred by weakening or taking out Cailan's strongest allies.

Also, we know he was in bed with Uldred before the battle.  David Gaider confirmed that the reason that both Loghain and Uldred wanted to control the signal, was so that Loghain would have the ability to make sure that there was no signal.  That this lack of signal would allow him to do what he did anyway, i.e. abandon the troops that were fighting the darkspawn.  It's just if there was no signal, Loghain would not be shown for the traitor that he was.

So in addition to the plan being rather poor in the first place, Loghain had always intended to decide if/when to make his move.  And this despite Loghain's limited view of the battlefield.  If Loghain had been trying to win, he would have been in the high ground watching and sending orders.

I think Loghain wanted Cailan to "see reason,: so to speak.  Of course Loghain could not see how unreasonable his reasoning is.  But I don't think Loghain wanted to have Cailan killed...if there was another way.  When Cailan decides to fight with the GWs, it probably gave Loghain pause.  But ultimately it seems his ego and hate of Orlais resulted in the decision that it was better off to let Cailan die, so that Loghain could concentrate on the true foe - Orlais.

[JosieJ]

 I agree in large part with the TC and other posters saying Loghain's aim was to eliminate the GWs.  Some thoughts:

1. Someone asked above that if Loghain wanted to eliminate the GWs, why did he not wait until the Orlesian GWs arrived for the battle and eliminate them, too?  I think Loghain wanted to eliminate the Fereldan GWs, but could not have cared less about the Orlesian GWs--as long as they stayed in Orlais.

2. That Orlais was never contemplating an invasion is fairly clear from the fact that a) they didn't send more troops under the pretense of helping to stop the Blight (but really for a surprise invasion) and the Orlesian GWs and their support troops meekly turned around at the border when they were denied entry.  Several times during the story, it's stated that it was the Orlesian GWs and their support troops--which did include chevaliers, but which were not the bulk of the Orlesian standing army.  What Loghain thought they could do, far southeast of their home, cut off from reinforcements, and surrounded by a large Fereldan army (with more Fereldan levies easily raised), I don't know.  Not to mention having to contend with the darkspawn at the same time--Blight or no, there were a lot of them, and of course, the Orlesian GWs knew it was a Blight.

3. The events of Warden's Keep proved that Loghain did have historical reason to be wary of GWs, as they had meddled in Fereldan politics before--indeed, that was the reason they'd been kicked out of Ferelden.  However, I saw no evidence that Duncan and the new corps of Fereldan GWs--or, indeed, the Orlesian GWs that were coming to help--were planning anything nefarious, so Loghain had no specific reason to distrust them.  That just proved to me that he was paranoid--sure, he had reason to hate Orlesians, but distrusting them with no reason?  That's paranoid.

4. The correspondence between Cailan and the Orlesian queen does indicate that they were planning an alliance of some sort.  This alone would have set Loghain off, had he known about it.  There's no indication that he did, however.  And I saw no indication in that correspondence that Cailan and the queen of Orlais had ever met in person.  It's all too vague and theoretical to say for sure what would have happened, or what form a proposed alliance would have taken.  Was there at least an opening for a marriage to cement a political alliance?  Yes.  However, there was nothing to show that Cailan was contemplating it (witness his recent anger at his uncle's suggestion; it seems they parted on bad terms because of that just before the battle) or that, even if he was, they'd got as far as working out all the logistical details.  And there's certainly no reason to suspect that Duncan, or any of the GWs--Orlesian or Fereldan--knew anything about it.

5.  Before I played RtO, I didn't believe that Loghain was involved in the darkspawn taking the Tower of Ishal.  Now, I'm not so sure.  The opening was so close to the battlefield, which any "brilliant strategist" worth his salt should have minutely inspected and known like the back of his hand.  However, this could also just have been a design decision by the developers to keep up the flow of play--which traversing another long path or tunnel would have slowed.  So, I don't know.

On edit:

Forgot one point, which was:

Whatever was going on between the Orlesian queen and Cailan, whatever the GWs were or were not planning to do, and whether or not Cailan, Loghain, or anyone else thought there was really a Blight going on, it was just bad strategy for Loghain to sacrifice half his standing army and abandon an excellent defensive position, all to eliminate a couple of dozen Fereldan GWs.  Not that I doubt that this was his aim--I agree that it was.  I just think it was a decision stemming from paranoia, and not sound tactical or strategic thinking.  Several people throughout state that the battle couldn't have been won, and that this was why Loghain abandoned the field.  I'm not sure that this was the case, but maybe if Loghain had planned a more defensive holding action, instead of trying to set up and sacrifice the GWs, the Fereldans could at least have kept the darkspawn bottled up where they were instead of allowing them to spread all over Ferelden.  Remember that the Ostagar fort straddled a narrow valley--it wouldn't have taken a lot to keep that valley plugged up, especially if one weren't looking for a decisive victory, but were just buying time until more troops could have been raised.

Modifié par JosieJ, 03 février 2010 - 06:41 .

[Carodej]

JosieJ wrote...

3. The events of Warden's Keep proved that Loghain did have historical reason to be wary of GWs, as they had meddled in Fereldan politics before--indeed, that was the reason they'd been kicked out of Ferelden.  However, I saw no evidence that Duncan and the new corps of Fereldan GWs--or, indeed, the Orlesian GWs that were coming to help--were planning anything nefarious, so Loghain had no specific reason to distrust them.  That just proved to me that he was paranoid--sure, he had reason to hate Orlesians, but distrusting them with no reason?  That's paranoid.

I agree with most of what you said, but about point 3, I don't think that is a factor.  While it is true that we learned why the GWs were kicked out of Ferelden, there is no indication that this is known in Ferelden.  There are mentions that there was much chaos follwing this incdident and many records were lost.  It's possible Loghain might have known of this, but it seems unlikely to me.  Perhaps the details were known to historians, but perhaps not.  The common people you talk to only seem to know stories about how GWs killed all the darkspawn and are no longer needed or else the GWs are great heroes.  None but Loghain seem to think they are anything else.

[RangerSG]

Carodej wrote...

JosieJ wrote...

3. The events of Warden's Keep proved that Loghain did have historical reason to be wary of GWs, as they had meddled in Fereldan politics before--indeed, that was the reason they'd been kicked out of Ferelden.  However, I saw no evidence that Duncan and the new corps of Fereldan GWs--or, indeed, the Orlesian GWs that were coming to help--were planning anything nefarious, so Loghain had no specific reason to distrust them.  That just proved to me that he was paranoid--sure, he had reason to hate Orlesians, but distrusting them with no reason?  That's paranoid.

I agree with most of what you said, but about point 3, I don't think that is a factor.  While it is true that we learned why the GWs were kicked out of Ferelden, there is no indication that this is known in Ferelden.  There are mentions that there was much chaos follwing this incdident and many records were lost.  It's possible Loghain might have known of this, but it seems unlikely to me.  Perhaps the details were known to historians, but perhaps not.  The common people you talk to only seem to know stories about how GWs killed all the darkspawn and are no longer needed or else the GWs are great heroes.  None but Loghain seem to think they are anything else.

You don't think a history buff like Loghain knew why the Grey Wardens were evicted? I find that hard to believe. He had lots of opportunity to find out. Also, in The Calling, the Grey Wardens are suspected (with cause) of being in bed with Orlais again. It does not help that most of the Grey Warden leaders in Ferelden are sent over from Orlais, either.

[Carodej]

RangerSG wrote...

Carodej wrote...

JosieJ wrote...

3. The events of Warden's Keep proved that Loghain did have historical reason to be wary of GWs, as they had meddled in Fereldan politics before--indeed, that was the reason they'd been kicked out of Ferelden.  However, I saw no evidence that Duncan and the new corps of Fereldan GWs--or, indeed, the Orlesian GWs that were coming to help--were planning anything nefarious, so Loghain had no specific reason to distrust them.  That just proved to me that he was paranoid--sure, he had reason to hate Orlesians, but distrusting them with no reason?  That's paranoid.

I agree with most of what you said, but about point 3, I don't think that is a factor.  While it is true that we learned why the GWs were kicked out of Ferelden, there is no indication that this is known in Ferelden.  There are mentions that there was much chaos follwing this incdident and many records were lost.  It's possible Loghain might have known of this, but it seems unlikely to me.  Perhaps the details were known to historians, but perhaps not.  The common people you talk to only seem to know stories about how GWs killed all the darkspawn and are no longer needed or else the GWs are great heroes.  None but Loghain seem to think they are anything else.

You don't think a history buff like Loghain knew why the Grey Wardens were evicted? I find that hard to believe. He had lots of opportunity to find out. Also, in The Calling, the Grey Wardens are suspected (with cause) of being in bed with Orlais again. It does not help that most of the Grey Warden leaders in Ferelden are sent over from Orlais, either.

I know Loghain is a map buff, but nothing about history.  The way he was raised, I doubt his education would have included much history, and if this was comparable to similar cultures here, there's a good chance that Loghain wouldn't have even learned to read until after he was made a teyrn.  Also, the way Loghain acted when Maric met him, I doubt he would have cared to learn about such.  He was all about survival and had no use for things that didn't seem to help with that.

Plus the opportunity to learn it exists only if there were records of the information.  The Dryden family had spent years, decades more likely, searching for information that would clear their name.  Yet Levi was totally surprised by the rebellion that was revealed by the ghosts in WK.  Over the years, I expect they would have gotten their hands on all the history books relating to that time.  If the rebellion was a shock to him, well, I just think it would have to be something that was either forgotten or else found only in very rare, old tomes.

I read The Calling too, finished it two days ago in fact, and I don't recall that the GW did anything that would have given Loghain a legitimate reason to be suspicious.  I know the GWs were not upfront about things, but they weren't in bed with the Orlesian Empire.  Also, the GWs hidden agendas were never fully revealed to Maric, and not at all revealed to Loghain.  Remember Loghain had most the army scouring the countryside as he thought Maric was likely being abducted by the GWs - while they were really all down in the Deep Roads fighting the darkspawn.

[Doyle41]

I read The Calling too, finished it two days ago in fact, and I don't recall that the GW did anything that would have given Loghain a legitimate reason to be suspicious.  I know the GWs were not upfront about things, but they weren't in bed with the Orlesian Empire.  Also, the GWs hidden agendas were never fully revealed to Maric, and not at all revealed to Loghain.  Remember Loghain had most the army scouring the countryside as he thought Maric was likely being abducted by the GWs - while they were really all down in the Deep Roads fighting the darkspawn.

Didn't the Wardens nearly overthrow the king of Ferelden in the past?  However, Loghain never trusted the First Enchanter or any other Orlesian in Ferelden. I believe that somebody had sent word that the Orlesian mages had siezed the Circle also.

[MaryDragon]

Loghain's motives appeared obvious to me after playing thru Return to Ostagar and finding Cailan's correspondance with the Empress of Orleis and Arl Eamon.

(1) Eamon believes Loghain's daughter Anora is barren and needs to be set aside so Cailan can sire an heir.

(2) The Empress of Orleis is planning a visit to Cailan to discuss an alliance, and her letters are strangely familiar - not the formality you would expect between formerly-at-war nations.

(3) The first time you're in Ostagar, you hear from the tent guards that Loghain and Cailan have been arguing about Anora.



Loghain plans to kill Cailan to save his daughter, plain and simple. He doesn't want Anora humiliated by being shoved aside, and he doesn't want to lose his place of power at the King's elbow. Eamon knows about the problem, so he has to be taken out too. Now he needs a fall guy - hey, there's the Grey Wardens. There's only a dozen of them, so killing them off should be easy, and now there's nobody who knows any better.

Its actually easier to be sympathetic to the b@st@rd knowing he was just doing it to defend his daughter. And that also explains why he won't discuss the matter with Anora - no use worrying her about being barren or giving more voice to the rumors.

[draxynnus]

JosieJ wrote...

On edit:

Forgot one point, which was:

Whatever was going on between the Orlesian queen and Cailan, whatever the GWs were or were not planning to do, and whether or not Cailan, Loghain, or anyone else thought there was really a Blight going on, it was just bad strategy for Loghain to sacrifice half his standing army and abandon an excellent defensive position, all to eliminate a couple of dozen Fereldan GWs.  Not that I doubt that this was his aim--I agree that it was.  I just think it was a decision stemming from paranoia, and not sound tactical or strategic thinking.  Several people throughout state that the battle couldn't have been won, and that this was why Loghain abandoned the field.  I'm not sure that this was the case, but maybe if Loghain had planned a more defensive holding action, instead of trying to set up and sacrifice the GWs, the Fereldans could at least have kept the darkspawn bottled up where they were instead of allowing them to spread all over Ferelden.  Remember that the Ostagar fort straddled a narrow valley--it wouldn't have taken a lot to keep that valley plugged up, especially if one weren't looking for a decisive victory, but were just buying time until more troops could have been raised.

This is actually a curious point - you have various characters suggesting that waiting before starting the battle is an option (to gather more troops, etc), but it's the Darkspawn that are on the offensive - and, thus, unless the Ferelden forces refused to give battle at Ostagar and withdrew, the horde was going to arrive when it did regardless of whether the Ferelden forces wanted to wait for reinforcements or not. This might actually be what was meant - they could have bottled up the Darkspawn until enough reinforcements arrived for a decisive victory, but Cailan wanted his decisive victory now.

[Solica]

Asylumer wrote...

Solica wrote...

I think the plan for the beacon was to have an excuse. Loghain need to be able to explain why he charged so late, or never. So he always planned that the beacon wouldn't be lit. The hole in the floor would maybe in turn be his explanation why the beacon was never lit.

This idea requires that most of Loghain's forces to not know who was responsible for the lighting of the tower and/or to be a part of a conspiracy, otherwise people would ask why the signal wasn't lit in the first place if they knew Loghain's people were in charge of it.

How feasible this would be in a single camp where the soldiers were likely to have a basic idea of who's been assigned to where, is up to you. Certainly modern militaries try to use good OPSEC to prevent enemies from obtaining intelligence but A) they were fighting the Darkspawn who've shown no interest in acquiring intelligence from what they could see and If you see your friend Joe go into the Tower before the battle, you can assume he's there for a reason, and if you hear about the beacon during the briefing, it doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together.

You may argue that Loghain prepped the lower chambers to lure the Darkspawn into the tower, while also assuming that he had the knowledge of how to do such a thing, but even then he'd be hard pressed to explain how he came to know the tower was overrun and get his troops out of there in time. Did survivors make it from the tower to Loghain? Ok, that might work if he used only a small force of men who were prepared to lie about seeing the Darkspawn and never actually put themselves in danger, but you'd still have to consider the other aspects of that plan.

How did Loghain know the Darkspawn would break through in time to stop the beacon and not beforehand? Just how much control does he have when it comes to manipulating them? Did he capture and hold several Darkspawn down there to be released later? Did a mage somehow perform a spell that would override the Blight's control, somehow find Darkspawn already below the tower, and cause them to attack? There'd be a lot of variance depending on how close the nearest Darkspawn were. How could they guarantee they caught enough Darkspawn to successfully take the tower? How did they know the Darkspawn would come from underneath?

How is that a workable plan without an incredibly powerful spell that can control Darkspawn in a precise way? How likely is it that Loghain would use the spell then, and then not use it when fighting the Darkspawn later on?

I disagree. I probably misunderstand you in some way. Because I cannot see that you have any point. But in that case you probably already misunderstood me.

It's fairly obvious that Logain always intended to have control over when the beacon was lit. That 'obviousness' does not have to be true, it could be just appearances. But in this case we actually have even David Gaider's confirmation, he usually doesn't say much and he doesn't spell many things out clearly, but in the case of the beacon he has been pretty specific.
So Logain originally does intend to control the signal. Again, it seems 'obvious' that the plan A was to simply have his own men in the tower. This is simple enough. I'm sorry, but I cannot take your contrieved reasons (why this would be complicated) seriously, in a fictional, medieval setting.
Plan B is then an opportunity, which presents itself when the two Wardens are assigned to the tower. The hole and underground passage have been discovered already before (you learn this if you try to visit the tower before the battle.) All this now takes is his men not plugging the hole (which is never done, yet must have been an original priority) and leaving the tower. Finally, the darkspawn have the entrance by their way, when they attack (if you've done RtO you've seen this). They do overrun the tower "before", and it doesn't matter. Timing is not critical. Again, all this is simple enough.

Modifié par Solica, 03 février 2010 - 11:36 .

[Carodej]

Doyle41 wrote...

I read The Calling too, finished it two days ago in fact, and I don't recall that the GW did anything that would have given Loghain a legitimate reason to be suspicious.  I know the GWs were not upfront about things, but they weren't in bed with the Orlesian Empire.  Also, the GWs hidden agendas were never fully revealed to Maric, and not at all revealed to Loghain.  Remember Loghain had most the army scouring the countryside as he thought Maric was likely being abducted by the GWs - while they were really all down in the Deep Roads fighting the darkspawn.

Didn't the Wardens nearly overthrow the king of Ferelden in the past?  However, Loghain never trusted the First Enchanter or any other Orlesian in Ferelden. I believe that somebody had sent word that the Orlesian mages had siezed the Circle also.

Yes, the GWs got involved in politics, that's what this paragraph you didn't quote was all about...

Carodej wrote...

Plus the opportunity to learn it exists only if there were records of the information.  The Dryden family had spent years, decades more likely, searching for information that would clear their name.  Yet Levi was totally surprised by the rebellion that was revealed by the ghosts in WK.  Over the years, I expect they would have gotten their hands on all the history books relating to that time.  If the rebellion was a shock to him, well, I just think it would have to be something that was either forgotten or else found only in very rare, old tomes.

Levi was not some history scholar, he and his family were merchants.  But reasonably successful ones that had spent years in trying to clear their family name.  The logicial thing for them to have done is search for clues in historical records, doing so resulted in them wanting to check out WK.  But since Levi seemed surprised at everything they learned there, and since it said many records from that time were lost, it seems very unlikely to me that Loghain would know this obscure fact.

You're right about Loghain not trusting the First Enchanter, but Loghain never had a reason for it - except that the First Enchanter was Orlesian and hence not to be trusted.  While no rational person would believe that all Orlesians are untrustworthy, Loghain was correct that the First Enchanter was loyal to Orlais and working against Ferelden.  But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there's no one out to get you, and even a broken clock is right two times a day. 

The reason Loghain knew about the Orlesian mages taking over the Ferelden Circle was because Loghain had set spies upon them.  His spies reported what occurred, and Loghain acted quickly upon that information.

[_Aine_]

I think it is clear that pre-us-at-Ostagar, Loghain has lost his patience with Cailan and is prepping, likely, to usurp him --- or perhaps more accurately, to remove Cailan as King, in one way or another, regardless of his own personal involvement after the fact. I think though that there were many ways of doing it less *obviously* than this battle. I really don`t think he pre-planned to retreat. Had it been an opportunity for great victory, I think he would have charged when planned.

This was the fourth battle, three had already been won. Planning a retreat, when you feel you may stand a chance of WINNING would be stupid, and whether or not you think Loghain was a tactician or strategic genius, he didn`t get to where he was by being a flaming moron either.
Now, i think it could very well be, that he was planning to rid Ferelden of what he thought was *not* good for Ferelden, that being Cailan, and so when presented with an *opportunity* that made strategic sense ( he knew they had no hope of success by the time the beacon was lit ) he wisely ( for his own perception and goals) took that opportunity.
If you speak to Loghain pre-Ostagar and make fun of Cailan, he corrects you, basically calling him naive and young, but apparently still holding out hope the King will see Loghain`s version of sense. Cailan, having 3 decided victories under his recent belt, and now the chance to ride into glorious battle with the famed Grey Wardens, of course was dreaming far bigger than Loghain was able to sell....
Like or hate either of them, I think its easier to look at the past and find motives and planning, than truthfully anyone might have had of a plan for that battle. In a battle like that you may have PLANS for this possible occurance or that one, but it would be a real flaming maroon who only had one plan and god help the rest of us if those exact circumstances and stars don`t align themselves to your will at that moment.
I still believe that Loghain decided at the moment the beacon was lit, and took his chance to retreat when the opportunity presented itself. I may *think* i know why, but only Loghain ( or the writers lol) know for sure.

PS. As for the signal being controlled by Loghain: this proves no motive. The plan was to flank when the signal was lit, so of course Loghain wants his men to be the ones to light the signal, otherwise they are playing cribbage while everyone else is fighting. If they go in too early, they get munched in a big way -- flanking is sound strategy, but timing is essential to the success of such a mission.  WHile convenient for nefarious purposes that *could be*, I think that it is sound strategy in this regard anyway and doesn`t overly implicate anyone *in itself* . 

Modifié par shantisands, 03 février 2010 - 11:36 .

[RangerSG]

MaryDragon wrote...

Loghain's motives appeared obvious to me after playing thru Return to Ostagar and finding Cailan's correspondance with the Empress of Orleis and Arl Eamon.
(1) Eamon believes Loghain's daughter Anora is barren and needs to be set aside so Cailan can sire an heir.
(2) The Empress of Orleis is planning a visit to Cailan to discuss an alliance, and her letters are strangely familiar - not the formality you would expect between formerly-at-war nations.
(3) The first time you're in Ostagar, you hear from the tent guards that Loghain and Cailan have been arguing about Anora.

Loghain plans to kill Cailan to save his daughter, plain and simple. He doesn't want Anora humiliated by being shoved aside, and he doesn't want to lose his place of power at the King's elbow. Eamon knows about the problem, so he has to be taken out too. Now he needs a fall guy - hey, there's the Grey Wardens. There's only a dozen of them, so killing them off should be easy, and now there's nobody who knows any better.
Its actually easier to be sympathetic to the b@st@rd knowing he was just doing it to defend his daughter. And that also explains why he won't discuss the matter with Anora - no use worrying her about being barren or giving more voice to the rumors.

Perhaps, but according to DG, the poisoning of Eamon was not meant to kill him, it was only meant to keep his forces from going to Ostagar. In fact, it's been confirmed Loghain has the antidote. So it's really a matter of the whole Connor thing getting out of hand rather than the poisoning that pushed Eamon to the brink.

The Grey Wardens are openly calling on the King to bring in troops from Orlais. Duncan and Riordin will both tell you this. Wardens and support troops, including Chevalliers. That's enough to trigger Loghain's paranoia right there.

So Eamon is intentionally kept away from the battle, so he can't die at the front with the Wardens--or enable the Wardens through some fluke to survive. And the Wardens are set up as the "Anvil" in the battleplan, and the "anvil" is always going to take a beating even in the best-intended flanking plan. Howe's killing the Couslands was his own intiative. But I wouldn't be surprised if Loghain and Howe had talked about how to delay Bryce from arriving at Ostagar as well, given the Cousland's reputation as 'Royalists.' Howe took advantage of this and went one step further, knowing Loghain wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

Was Loghain willing to move against Cailan at Ostagar in some way? Yes. But kill Cailan? I don't think that was his intent. But when Cailan insists on going to the front, Loghain washes his hands of him (again, Maric's promise). I would guess Loghain initially intended to isolate Cailan from his allies at Ostagar, and then demonstrate how foolhardy Cailan's glory-hunting had been. That would convince Cailan (he hoped) to "remember his duties."

[_Aine_]

RangerSG wrote...

Was Loghain willing to move against Cailan at Ostagar in some way? Yes. But kill Cailan? I don't think that was his intent. But when Cailan insists on going to the front, Loghain washes his hands of him (again, Maric's promise). I would guess Loghain initially intended to isolate Cailan from his allies at Ostagar, and then demonstrate how foolhardy Cailan's glory-hunting had been. That would convince Cailan (he hoped) to "remember his duties."

thank you for saying this so clearly.  This is what I think as well.  Remove and kill are two separate things entirely. 

[Carodej]

shantisands wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Was Loghain willing to move against Cailan at Ostagar in some way? Yes. But kill Cailan? I don't think that was his intent. But when Cailan insists on going to the front, Loghain washes his hands of him (again, Maric's promise). I would guess Loghain initially intended to isolate Cailan from his allies at Ostagar, and then demonstrate how foolhardy Cailan's glory-hunting had been. That would convince Cailan (he hoped) to "remember his duties."

thank you for saying this so clearly.  This is what I think as well.  Remove and kill are two separate things entirely. 

I concur, well said, and what I basically believe as well.

But I think the plan as we saw in the cutscene was incedibly stupid given the time and resources they had.  I don't really think it was as much a serious plan to win, as a plan that could win but was more geared towards getting rid of those nasty Orlesian sympathizers/spies (the GWs) and leave an out for Loghain and his troops.

[JosieJ]

draxynnus wrote...

JosieJ wrote...

On edit:

Forgot one point, which was:

Whatever was going on between the Orlesian queen and Cailan, whatever the GWs were or were not planning to do, and whether or not Cailan, Loghain, or anyone else thought there was really a Blight going on, it was just bad strategy for Loghain to sacrifice half his standing army and abandon an excellent defensive position, all to eliminate a couple of dozen Fereldan GWs.  Not that I doubt that this was his aim--I agree that it was.  I just think it was a decision stemming from paranoia, and not sound tactical or strategic thinking.  Several people throughout state that the battle couldn't have been won, and that this was why Loghain abandoned the field.  I'm not sure that this was the case, but maybe if Loghain had planned a more defensive holding action, instead of trying to set up and sacrifice the GWs, the Fereldans could at least have kept the darkspawn bottled up where they were instead of allowing them to spread all over Ferelden.  Remember that the Ostagar fort straddled a narrow valley--it wouldn't have taken a lot to keep that valley plugged up, especially if one weren't looking for a decisive victory, but were just buying time until more troops could have been raised.

This is actually a curious point - you have various characters suggesting that waiting before starting the battle is an option (to gather more troops, etc), but it's the Darkspawn that are on the offensive - and, thus, unless the Ferelden forces refused to give battle at Ostagar and withdrew, the horde was going to arrive when it did regardless of whether the Ferelden forces wanted to wait for reinforcements or not. This might actually be what was meant - they could have bottled up the Darkspawn until enough reinforcements arrived for a decisive victory, but Cailan wanted his decisive victory now.

I didn't mean the battle should be postponed--as you point out, you're on the darkspawn's schedule, not your own.  I just meant a more defensive battle plan might have been better (if Cailan could have been talked into it, as you also note), and that losing a battle, thousands of troops, and an excellent defensive position seems an extreme way to get rid of a handful of Wardens.

And as for Loghain wanting to save his daughter from being set aside:  it seems an excellent theory except that

1) there's no indication that anyone knew about the correspondence between the Orlesian queen and Cailan except him (and you, once you find the documents in his secret compartment).  You think Loghain wouldn't have immediately confronted him with that if he'd known about it?  And, again, a catastrophic loss at Ostagar seems an extreme way of getting rid of one man where poison would work just as well. 

2) Cailan seemed resistant to the idea of setting Anora aside--his uncle's note referred to them parting on bad terms because Eamon suggested this.  Could Cailan have changed his mind?  Of course, but again, there's no indication that Loghain would have known about this.