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ME2: Threadbare Plot and Sickening Story Elements


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#251
OrionUnas

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Nautica773 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
They were also the first species to locate the Citadel. The founders are kinda important, no?


Until some barbaric civilization rises up and kills them.
Sure, them founding the Council is impressive. But, at least from history, starting something doesn't amount to much. If the Asari didn't have something to back their interest aside from... I guess tradition... it stands to reason that they would have been ousted by a combined force between the Salarians and Turians. I would just like to see them offer something to the universe other than eye candy.
And, it would also be nice, if they were used as an avenue to explore gender roles and expectations. I don't see why the 'all female race' couldn't have had one of the best armies in the galaxy, or at least a decent one. I was a little disappointed to basically see the Asari are space "women" in that they represent everything commonly associated with that gender. 
Anyway, that's neither here nor there and it's unlikely to be addressed. So the Asari will basically continue 'not making sense' for the rest of this trilogy.


They also are the strongest biotics and have the justicar, the most feared law enforcment.

#252
Jerjud45

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To the OP

I agree with some of what you say.  This isn't a conventional story, its supposed to be more about the characters, and ultimately surviving a suicide mission.  If you don't like the story, you don't like the story, not everyone is going to be happy with how a game turns out.  Its like with me and Star Wars, I like the original trilogy, but the new one has completely ruined the Star Wars universe for me and I am not a fan anymore.


I don't think there was any more sexuality thrown at you in ME2 than there was in ME1.  There were asari strippers in ME1 too, and the consort was a high class prostitute, who you have the option of having sexual relations with as a mission reward!!  I am surprised that you would be offended by the portrayal of women in ME2 and not be in ME1.

You can't make a game world both believable and politically correct, that's absurd.  Racism runs rampant in ME1, how come you weren't offended by that?  Or the appearance of genocide, or even the genophage?  The ****s had a sterilization program for the jews so they couldn't reproduce anymore, and we even had a similar sterilization project in the United States for a short time to reduce the birth of children with mental handicaps and low IQ scores, which parallels with the genophage, so why not be offended by that? 

Nothing in this game is any worse than what happens today in the real world on a regular basis.  True artwork DOES parallel history and things that are going on in today's society, good or bad.  You are doing a disservice to those who have suffered if you choose to ignore it completely.  Too many people try to ignore the atrocities that happen in this world, so they can live their own little fantasy world of ignorant bliss that they make for themselves, where everything is ok, and nothing bad ever happens. 

It seems like you think Bioware is exploiting these topics, where I believe they are just making a dark, realistic universe.  Movies do this too, do you complain about movies that explore these areas?  How about books?  Do you think that people who listen to heavy metal music worship the devil?

They are not promoting these things in the game, they just simply are there.  I would be insulted if they decided to make Mass Effect more like Disneyland where everything is happy and fluffy.  Especially in the 2nd act of a trilogy, which is supposed to be the dark act where stuff gets messed up and bad things happen.  Realistically the future isn't going to be any better than today.

Cerberus was doing sick experiments in ME1 too, did you not do any of the side quests?  How come you werent offended that a corporation would knowingly allow the Thorian to control its colonists and mess with their minds?  I'm sure you could parallel that to some sick **** experiment too, but you decided to just pick on ME2 for some reason.

You are right to be disgusted, these things are horrible, but that doesn't change the fact that that's how it is.  If you didnt feel disgusted by some of this stuff, then the writers arent doing their jobs right.  This isnt the first game to touch on these subjects either, nor will it be the last.
How you think that Legion and EDI are the only two characters with any charisma though is beyond me.  Maybe because they are the only two characters without any sex organs?  I personally thought Tali was the best developed character, especially because there is already history to build upon from the first game.  I also thought Mordin was quite awesome, and added a bit of comic relief at times as well.

And your comment on homophobia is absurd.  Have you not ever been a confused young teen that liked something that may not be in agreeance with the values you grew up with?  Thats not called homophobia, its called being a confused young teen.

Having said all that, you are entitled to your opinion and am sorry to hear you didnt enjoy this game.  However, I think you read into things way too much, and are far too sensitive.  Maybe you should be wary of playing M rated games in the future if you are unwilling to be exposed to controversial, adult topics.  Hell, you probably shouldnt leave your house if you are unwilling to be exposed to controversial, adult topics.  Mature doesnt just mean they use the F word a few times.

Modifié par Jerjud45, 06 février 2010 - 06:15 .


#253
Valmy

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Ozymandias23 wrote...


I also found the portrayal of women in Mass Effect 2 offensive at times. On Omega the Asari seemed to have been assigned the role of strippers, pole dancers and prostitutes. There seemed to be a recurring theme that
suggested women were play things, to be used and abused when opportunity permitted. This theme carried through to Jacob’s loyalty mission, a mission that I found disturbing on an emotional level and absolutely sickening.


But so many of strongest characters in the game were women, why are you just ignoring them to point out the bad portrayals?  An pretty impressive Asari rules Omega for all intents and purposes.  I mean you are correct there was an abuse of women thing going on just like there was the theme that all men are mercenaries, slavers, pirates, or criminals of some sort...but it was pretty clearly delivered as not an endorsment.

I mean everybody in the mass effect universe has a great body and wears skintight outfits...even the old people...but this is fantasy after all Image IPB

#254
Nautica773

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OrionUnas wrote...
They also are the strongest biotics and have the justicar, the most feared law enforcement.


Justicars rarely/never leave Asari space and the Commandos are mentioned as being only a handful or so in number (some Turian quote about how it's good that they don't actually form numbers large enough to make an army). 

#255
TuringPoint

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Nautica773 wrote...
And, it would also be nice, if they were used as an avenue to explore gender roles and expectations. I don't see why the 'all female race' couldn't have had one of the best armies in the galaxy, or at least a decent one. I was a little disappointed to basically see the Asari are space "women" in that they represent everything commonly associated with that gender. 
Anyway, that's neither here nor there and it's unlikely to be addressed. So the Asari will basically continue 'not making sense' for the rest of this trilogy.


They do have some of the best armies in the galaxy.  But they aren't boring and heirarchical and violent like Turians. The Asari are really fascinating if you don't focus solely on them being the interspecies strippers.  They are the most powerful biotics.  They can go toe to toe with Krogan.  They have complex political relationships.  Asari personalities vary widely, with some being more masculine in behavior than others.

WTF?  So you just want the Asari to be something they're not, in order to appease you and "make sense"?  

Modifié par Alocormin, 06 février 2010 - 06:37 .


#256
AngryTigerP

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Nautica773 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
They were also the first species to locate the Citadel. The founders are kinda important, no?


Until some barbaric civilization rises up and kills them.
Sure, them founding the Council is impressive. But, at least from history, starting something doesn't amount to much. If the Asari didn't have something to back their interest aside from... I guess tradition... it stands to reason that they would have been ousted by a combined force between the Salarians and Turians. I would just like to see them offer something to the universe other than eye candy.
And, it would also be nice, if they were used as an avenue to explore gender roles and expectations. I don't see why the 'all female race' couldn't have had one of the best armies in the galaxy, or at least a decent one. I was a little disappointed to basically see the Asari are space "women" in that they represent everything commonly associated with that gender. 
Anyway, that's neither here nor there and it's unlikely to be addressed. So the Asari will basically continue 'not making sense' for the rest of this trilogy.


... Sexism, much?

There is a clearly defined triumvirate. Turians are military, Asari are diplomats, Salarians are spies/clandestine. This is the MOST BASIC rendering of their roles, and makes sense in that the Turians' explanation for introduction to the Council was as military might to support the Asari and Salarians. Might I point out to you that Asari are also considered about the best army per unit (lines in the game, or perhaps it was the codex, basically say that the Asari army would be the most powerful, were it not so low in numbers) and have the Destiny Ascension, the best Citadel ship in the galaxy (obviously not up to Reapers one-on-one, but who is?) I also ask if the Salarians are also considered 'womanly' because they CLEARLY didn't have a decent military (why else would they need the Turians?)

When you live as long as an Asari does, it makes sense that they would take things slowly -- and since war is a sudden and violent act, this would probably be something that the Asari are used to avoiding or defusing.

The fact that you want so badly for these supposed 'space women' to be kicked off the Council because they 'have no purpose' speaks something about you, though.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 06 février 2010 - 06:39 .


#257
TuringPoint

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That makes me so mad you'd make the Asari out to be intergalactic strippers. Idiot.

#258
Nautica773

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Alocormin wrote...
They do have some of the best armies in the galaxy.  But they aren't boring and heirarchical and violent like Turians. The Asari are really fascinating if you don't focus solely on them being the interspecies strippers.  They are the most powerful biotics.  They can go toe to toe with Krogan.  They have complex political relationships.  Asari personalities vary widely, with some being more masculine in behavior than others.

WTF?  So you just want the Asari to be something they're not, in order to appease you and "make sense"?  


They don't have to appease me, I'd just like them to not be ignored. 
They don't have one of the best armies in the galaxy, it's explicitly stated that Turians have numbers, Krogans have toughness and Salarians have tech/espionage. It's mentioned that some Asari are better trained and that their biotics are impressive, but they also say their military is more of a small band of 'huntresses' that is akin to a local militia then anything organized.
We have yet to see any complex political relationships too. Infact, their codex makes it sound like their politics is more akin to city-states than anything else. 
So, we have a race with no military and a lack of centralized government that is considered one of the most influential races in the galaxy. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense to me. Furthermore, the majority of Asari you interact with or see are strippers, diplomats or consorts.
I'm not sure where the masculine behaviour is coming from either. Could you cite some examples?

AngryTigerP wrote...

... Sexism, much?


Not really.

There is a clearly defined triumvirate. Turians are military, Asari are diplomats, Salarians are spies/clandestine. This is the MOST BASIC rendering of their roles, and makes sense in that the Turians' explanation for introduction to the Council was as military might to support the Asari and Salarians. Might I point out to you that Asari are also considered about the best army per unit (lines in the game, or perhaps it was the codex, basically say that the Asari army would be the most powerful, were it not so low in numbers) and have the Destiny Ascension, the best Citadel ship in the galaxy (obviously not up to Reapers one-on-one, but who is?) I also ask if the Salarians are also considered 'womanly' because they CLEARLY didn't have a decent military (why else would they need the Turians?)


The Salarians are considered to have a very effective military that focuses on lightning raids and pre-emptive strikes based on their intelligence gather.

And for being diplomats, their role seems to be marginalized in all the defining events of the galaxy (Rachni Wars, Krogan Rebellion, First Contact War...)


When you live as long as an Asari does, it makes sense that they would take things slowly -- and since war is a sudden and violent act, this would probably be something that the Asari are used to avoiding or defusing.

The fact that you want so badly for these supposed 'space women' to be kicked off the Council because they 'have no purpose' speaks something about you, though.


I think it speaks more to your reading comprehension. I want to see reasons for them to be on the council for them to have some 'teeth' to their diplomatic ways. Right now, they have nothing to keep them in power with petty but empty words. I'd like to see something different. It's not like they couldn't be portrayed otherwise. Aria should have been more the typical Asari leader, not some deviant marginalized to an outlaw Omega.

Modifié par Nautica773, 06 février 2010 - 06:50 .


#259
AngryTigerP

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Nautica773 wrote...

Alocormin wrote...
They do have some of the best armies in the galaxy.  But they aren't boring and heirarchical and violent like Turians. The Asari are really fascinating if you don't focus solely on them being the interspecies strippers.  They are the most powerful biotics.  They can go toe to toe with Krogan.  They have complex political relationships.  Asari personalities vary widely, with some being more masculine in behavior than others.

WTF?  So you just want the Asari to be something they're not, in order to appease you and "make sense"?  


They don't have to appease me, I'd just like them to not be ignored. 
They don't have one of the best armies in the galaxy, it's explicitly stated that Turians have numbers, Krogans have toughness and Salarians have tech/espionage. It's mentioned that some Asari are better trained and that their biotics are impressive, but they also say their military is more of a small band of 'huntresses' that is akin to a local militia then anything organized.
We have yet to see any complex political relationships too. Infact, their codex makes it sound like their politics is more akin to city-states than anything else. 
So, we have a race with no military and a lack of centralized government that is considered one of the most influential races in the galaxy. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense to me. Furthermore, the majority of Asari you interact with or see are strippers, diplomats or consorts.
I'm not sure where the masculine behaviour is coming from either. Could you cite some examples?


Asari bartender on Ilium, for one. But I digress.

You clearly underestimate the importance of diplomacy.

Oh, and the majority of Turians you see are cops, soldiers, or diplomats. Does that mean that those are the only things they ever do with their lives? Especially funny because many times when the Maiden stage is mentioned, it's "Dancing in a club or joining some merc band."

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 06 février 2010 - 06:44 .


#260
Nautica773

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AngryTigerP wrote...
Asari bartender on Ilium, for one. But I digress.

You clearly underestimate the importance of diplomacy.

Oh, and the majority of Turians you see are cops, soldiers, or diplomats. Does that mean that those are the only things they ever do with their lives? Especially funny because many times when the Maiden stage is mentioned, it's "Dancing in a club or joining some merc band."


I liked the Illium bartender. It was the only moment you really had some insight into the Asari race.
I'm not saying Asari are incapable of fighting but that their race, as a galactic whole, seems to be wholly inadequate for their position. How they managed to stay on the Council is a mystery, especially considering the structure and organization of their home space.
What do we know about the Asari, as a whole? They like culture, they think slowly and they prefer talking over action. They have little military to back their interests, their technology and espionage is behind other races and their commerce seems even less developed then the Volus.
So what makes them worthy of a Council position? They found the Citadel? 
I'm surprised no one has challenged their authority, it seems in the present make-up, they would be unable to back their power claims.

#261
Madmoe77

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"We're not in Kansas anymore Toto;" says Dorothy holding her little dog closely.
Mass 1 had this whole too perfect thing going for it as mentioned by many of the characters while running around the Citadel. Mass 2 has the full intent to give you the other side of the coin. I believe the goal here is to make it hard for the player to want to save an incredibly flawed world. Ultimately that is the choice. The game is about choices and should you had the choice to not infect yourself with others of opposite stature then maybe most wouldn't. But knowing that there is undo injustice as part of everyday life makes this a real story.

Some may want to click their ruby red slippers the moment they set foot on Omega but those that stayed the fight found that redemption is often short-lived but necessary all the same. As mentioned before a reality to us all. This is the middle road and meant to test the resolve of your character. Can you maintain shining armor with the knowledge you are also saving the worst while working with the worst? Can you still focus on getting home to Kansas knowing you could leave the little people to flying apes? I personally feel this provided Mass Effect with the realism it needed. There are no keepers on the edges of the traverse. Nothing to soften our hands and lull us into laziness.

As far as your personal issues with content we can empathize-and I believe that has more to do with the distaste than anything. But without reality to sleep on-dreams would have no purpose.

#262
AngryTigerP

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Nautica773 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
Asari bartender on Ilium, for one. But I digress.

You clearly underestimate the importance of diplomacy.

Oh, and the majority of Turians you see are cops, soldiers, or diplomats. Does that mean that those are the only things they ever do with their lives? Especially funny because many times when the Maiden stage is mentioned, it's "Dancing in a club or joining some merc band."


I liked the Illium bartender. It was the only moment you really had some insight into the Asari race.
I'm not saying Asari are incapable of fighting but that their race, as a galactic whole, seems to be wholly inadequate for their position. How they managed to stay on the Council is a mystery, especially considering the structure and organization of their home space.
What do we know about the Asari, as a whole? They like culture, they think slowly and they prefer talking over action. They have little military to back their interests, their technology and espionage is behind other races and their commerce seems even less developed then the Volus.
So what makes them worthy of a Council position? They found the Citadel? 
I'm surprised no one has challenged their authority, it seems in the present make-up, they would be unable to back their power claims.


And it's been said NUMEROUS times that, one-on-one, Asari are about the toughest fighters this side of Krogan. They have biotics, they have physical fitness, and they have intelligence. They are diplomats, but if the Destiny Ascension and Asari Commando units are anything to go by, if the other two races try to kick them off and/or aggress them, they could mobilize and kick EVERYONE'S ass.

However, you are basically saying that we should scrap Congress and the President (assuming you're American) and keep intelligence agencies and the military. Obviously, they have no worth. That's not the way things work when you go beyond the playground being ruled by the biggest kids on the block.

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 06 février 2010 - 06:55 .


#263
Nautica773

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AngryTigerP wrote...
And it's been said NUMEROUS times that, one-on-one, Asari are about the toughest fighters this side of Krogan. They have biotics, they have physical fitness, and they have intelligence. They are diplomats, but if the Destiny Ascension and Asari Commando units are anything to go by, if the other two races try to kick them off and/or aggress them, they could mobilize and kick EVERYONE'S ass.

However, you are basically saying that we should scrap Congress and the President (assuming you're American) and keep intelligence agencies and the military. Obviously, they have no worth. That's not the way things work when you go beyond the playground being ruled by the biggest kids on the block.


Well, one-on-one Asari commandos can beat anyone. Course, they lost rather pitifully to Shepard and there aren't that many trained Commandos to begin with. It would be like relying a nation's entire military on the Green Berets. It doesn't matter how strong they may be individually, they just won't have the numbers to fight off anyone else.
And Congress and the President have political power because of the military they control. I don't think America is your best example, what with its large military forces and technology. It would be like... Luxembourg having a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council while Germany is only an elected representative to the main body. 

#264
OrionUnas

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My first responce to this long winded jabber from the OP was going to be a collection of everyones responces, on what I thought took the words right out of my mouth. However, I figure a hand typed responce may be better.

Seems to me, Ozymandias23 came from the school of, "oppose my opionions on everybody." I am at the Jacob mission right now. Though I loathe doing it... not because of the situation, but because I hate Jacob. I actually have no problem with this side quest. What male hasn't fantasised about a harem of girls?

First of all, it is stated in game, they crash landed on a planet. However, you failed to mention in your rant, that the planet's flora.. IS TOXIC. The mind decays because of this food, and in order to get his people back to the alliance, he seperated everyone. There simply was not enough food to go around, and he needed to make sure that IF they are to get to saftey, the sane minded will need to remain sane. I don't know about you, but if I were a commander of a ship trying to help my people, I'd know we'd need someone who can actually use technology.

Secondly, as it is said somewhere in this thread, "Absolute power corrupts absolutley." You're beliefe that the develupment team used the holocaust as an apt example for this mission is flawed. Corruption and neural decay is what started this problem, not a hatred towards the jewish community.

Thirdly, he even states that, inhebetions ran low, and in order to keep from chaos, he had to do what was done. This is his reason, until he needed saving. Once again, runs to corruption. "If you treat people like animals, big shock, they become animals." I think if you had read or listened to the diologue a little bit more, perhaps you would see things differently.

I, personaly, do not like it when slacked jawed hoity toity individuals feel they need to express their illconceviced notions of religious, or gender biased hostility unto to me. Granted, that I could just simply ignore the post, and not read it; however, I feel that I am being attacked because I don't share the same PC idealism that the OP does.

You say that BioWare callously used past events of the jewish community to sell this game as a gritty medium. I believe it is you who are callously trying to impose your beliefes unto us, and further more, me.

As the great Mr. Horse would say, "No sir, I don't like it."

He got what he deserved, problem solved.

You also say that you are unimpressed with the way they portray woman in this specific game. You even refer to it as if it is GTA. In no where in this game do I hire a hooker and kill her in the backseat of my stolen car.

You also fail to reply to a question posted more than once on this thread.. what of the Asari Consort on the Citidel? The stripers and dancers in Chora's Den. You have no concern for them when it doesn't tarnish your view of ME1. I will give you that the consort, as far as I remember, does not sleep or perform any sexual advances toward any of her clients, she mearly uses her abilities to make her clients feel better through asari means of communication.

I sugest next time you play ME1, take a seat in Chora's Den (ok, I spelled it twice, am I spelling it wrong?) and watch one of the dancers, oh and don't forget the tip.


Edit:

An other poster commented on Dante's Inferno.  I would also like to say, I'd really hate, and to me, hate is a strong word, if Ozymandias23 got his/her (i'm assuming is a girl), hands on the classics.  The Divine Comedy (Dante's Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradiso), as well as other greats works like Conan from the great and in my opinon prolific writer, Robert E. Howard.  I would HATE to see what Ozymandias23 would say about the gory bloody details and gratuitous nature of these stories.

Modifié par OrionUnas, 06 février 2010 - 07:25 .


#265
AngryTigerP

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Nautica773 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
And it's been said NUMEROUS times that, one-on-one, Asari are about the toughest fighters this side of Krogan. They have biotics, they have physical fitness, and they have intelligence. They are diplomats, but if the Destiny Ascension and Asari Commando units are anything to go by, if the other two races try to kick them off and/or aggress them, they could mobilize and kick EVERYONE'S ass.

However, you are basically saying that we should scrap Congress and the President (assuming you're American) and keep intelligence agencies and the military. Obviously, they have no worth. That's not the way things work when you go beyond the playground being ruled by the biggest kids on the block.


Well, one-on-one Asari commandos can beat anyone. Course, they lost rather pitifully to Shepard and there aren't that many trained Commandos to begin with. It would be like relying a nation's entire military on the Green Berets. It doesn't matter how strong they may be individually, they just won't have the numbers to fight off anyone else.
And Congress and the President have political power because of the military they control. I don't think America is your best example, what with its large military forces and technology. It would be like... Luxembourg having a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council while Germany is only an elected representative to the main body. 


But the Citadel Council ISN'T A MILITARY INSTITUTION.

So, no, it would be like Luxembourg having a permanent seat on the main body of the UN, and Germany also having a permanent seat on the UN.

#266
Nautica773

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AngryTigerP wrote...
But the Citadel Council ISN'T A MILITARY INSTITUTION.

So, no, it would be like Luxembourg having a permanent seat on the main body of the UN, and Germany also having a permanent seat on the UN.


Then why do the Turians supply the largest portion of the military? Why does the Council talk about a potential war with the Terminus Region if they send in their fleets?

#267
AM50

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Jerjud45 wrote...

To the OP

I agree with some of what you say.  This isn't a conventional story, its supposed to be more about the characters, and ultimately surviving a suicide mission.  If you don't like the story, you don't like the story, not everyone is going to be happy with how a game turns out.  Its like with me and Star Wars, I like the original trilogy, but the new one has completely ruined the Star Wars universe for me and I am not a fan anymore.


Off topic but.....

Dude. Being a Star Wars fan is something you can't back out of. Its like losing your virginity. There is no "Go back 10 spaces" option.

But agreed. The 3 other Star Wars movies (I use that term loosely) were terrible.

Original Star Wars FTW!

#268
AngryTigerP

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Nautica773 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
But the Citadel Council ISN'T A MILITARY INSTITUTION.

So, no, it would be like Luxembourg having a permanent seat on the main body of the UN, and Germany also having a permanent seat on the UN.


Then why do the Turians supply the largest portion of the military? Why does the Council talk about a potential war with the Terminus Region if they send in their fleets?


Do all members of the UN have the same size military?

Is a running joke not "'Send in the UN military'  means send in the Americans with a few Brits and Frenchies mixing up the pot a bit"?

If you go so far as to acknowledge the Council's relative analogue being the UN, then you've already lost your argument. We don't kick off Luxembourg because they can't fight; and similarly, you won't kick off the Asari just because they don't have the best military. I say again: Are you saying the Turians should single-handedly rule the Council?

#269
Nautica773

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AngryTigerP wrote...
Do all members of the UN have the same size military?

Is a running joke not "'Send in the UN military'  means send in the Americans with a few Brits and Frenchies mixing up the pot a bit"?

If you go so far as to acknowledge the Council's relative analogue being the UN, then you've already lost your argument. We don't kick off Luxembourg because they can't fight; and similarly, you won't kick off the Asari just because they don't have the best military. I say again: Are you saying the Turians should single-handedly rule the Council?


How is providing the UN as the best human analogue a loss of the argument? Now you're just not making sense. I apologize if there were a better real world analogy that I'm not aware of, but because we don't have some institute that exactly mirrors the organization of the Citadel Council does not mean the idea I was trying to communicate is rendered invalid in any way.

And, no, I am not aware of a running joke that 'Send in the UN military' means send in the Americans with British and French support. I do think that you're position is getting tenuous at this moment.

The fact still stands, at present the Asari have a very weak claim to the position they hold. I would like to see this addressed since, currently, the Asari do not make a lot of sense given the context that they are in and they seem to just fall into certain gender stereotypes expected of a race that appears 'all female'. 

I see no real reason why they can't have a larger military then what is presented in game (small militias of huntresses and a handful of specially trained Commandos). I see no reason why they can't have more political weight on the Council and why they shouldn't have a greater role in galactic politics. Right now, they serve as the defacto head of the Diplomacy branch, but rarely have any role in the important events that transpire. Their role is marginalized in the Rachni Wars, the Krogan Rebellions, the First Contact War and just about any conflict that's been mentioned in game.

The general portrayal of them is as dancers in bars or the wise old woman. There is no exploration of their views of gender roles or the peculiar position of them being the only mono-gendered race in known space. There is little exploration of gender in general, which the Asari would serve perfectly because of the unique writing of their species. Lacking a male/female dichotomy would certainly have a profound influence on a specie's culture and philosophy and yet, everything we learn about the Asari is told as if they were strictly female and not the truly alien culture they should be.

Modifié par Nautica773, 06 février 2010 - 07:46 .


#270
AngryTigerP

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Nautica773 wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...
Do all members of the UN have the same size military?

Is a running joke not "'Send in the UN military'  means send in the Americans with a few Brits and Frenchies mixing up the pot a bit"?

If you go so far as to acknowledge the Council's relative analogue being the UN, then you've already lost your argument. We don't kick off Luxembourg because they can't fight; and similarly, you won't kick off the Asari just because they don't have the best military. I say again: Are you saying the Turians should single-handedly rule the Council?


filler filler

The fact still stands, at present the Asari have a very weak claim to the position they hold. I would like to see this addressed since, currently, the Asari do not make a lot of sense given the context that they are in and they seem to just fall into certain gender stereotypes expected of a race that appears 'all female'. 

I see no real reason why they can't have a larger military then what is presented in game (small militias of huntresses and a handful of specially trained Commandos). I see no reason why they can't have more political weight on the Council and why they shouldn't have a greater role in galactic politics. Right now, they serve as the defacto head of the Diplomacy branch, but rarely have any role in the important events that transpire. Their role is marginalized in the Rachni Wars, the Krogan Rebellions, the First Contact War and just about any conflict that's been mentioned in game.

filler filler


WHY does a nation need a strong military to be powerful? I want you to answer that question. You seem far too hung-up on the fact that the Turians are militarily superior. For, what the third time? -- I ask: Should the Salarians also be removed? BECAUSE THEY, TOO , SERVE A PURPOSE SECONDARY TO MILITARY.

#271
AngryTigerP

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double posted

Modifié par AngryTigerP, 06 février 2010 - 07:49 .


#272
Rilke21

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Camo5050 wrote...

Granted, they're video game story writers.  This isn't Dostoevsky, Tolkien, or even (dare I say it?) Rowling.  If the writers were that good at storytelling, they wouldn't be working at Bioware.  It can seem artless in comparison, but they do make an attempt, and it's not just a vulgar and gratuitous attempt in my opinion.  It all seems contextual, even if controversial.  It may be clumsy, but it's not corruptive.


Agreed. I guess most of my disappointment comes from the fact that Mass Effect (and Dragon Age, while we're at it) moved me at least as much as Rowling, and probably Tolkien too. The second installment only managed to raise a skeptical eyebrow, and I think that's what motivated ozy's post.

I'm actually enjoying the game quite a bit more the second time through. Sadly, I'm enjoying it because I'm not expecting anything but a little escapism.

#273
Nautica773

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AngryTigerP wrote...
WHY does a nation need a strong military to be powerful? I want you to answer that question. You seem far too hung-up on the fact that the Turians are militarily superior. For, what the third time? -- I ask: Should the Salarians also be removed? BECAUSE THEY, TOO , SERVE A PURPOSE SECONDARY TO MILITARY.


Because 'might is right'. 

If you take a look at history, the nations that are the most powerful are also the ones with the greatest military. As a civilization, you will not survive without being able to protect yourself. You will not carry as much diplomatic weight if you do not have the force to back up your claims and your interests.

Once again, the Salarian military is not non-existent. The game does a decent job explaining why they can have a smaller force and still be considered a major political force. Their intelligence network is the best in the galaxy, and their military capitalizes on this intelligence. Instead of fighting large battles or wars of attrition, the Salarians will conduct lightning raids on key locations and targets as well as perform deadly pre-emptive strikes against those they know are a threat to them.

I can think of no nation with a non- existent military that is both able to thrive and be considered a major force in the galaxy. Remember, the Citadel Council is the voice in galactic politics. Their judgements are law to be obeyed by all the other members. The reason humans were being considered a position was because of their strong military, which (depending on your choices in ME) can have a huge impact on galactic politics. Notice that it is through sheer military superiority that mankind is able to seize the Citadel Council and create their own should you choose to abandon the Destiny Ascension.

To think that you can have political weight on an international or galactic scale and not have a force to back it up is either incredibly idealistic, or incredibly foolish. 

#274
Ozymandias23

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WilliamShatner wrote...

Ozymandias you write excellent posts. I hope you ignore all the clowns who complain can't be bothered to read them fully.


Thanks, I just find it ironic that some people suggest I can't handle anything other than a disneyesque view of the world and then choose to totally ignore or act as apologists for some very obvious themes in this game.

#275
Ozymandias23

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Rilke21 wrote...

Camo, I think it's less a question of moral upityness and more a question of taste. I doubt that BioWare is full of terrible people who develope games for degenerates. But they did fill Mass Effect 2 with a lot of garbage that took away from the story. I'm the last person who would argue against dark, sexual content in games, but that doesn't mean I like it thrown at me for the sake of faux "edginess."



This. This Rilke. I seem to have been unable to convey this point to some of the people who've commented in this thread. I'm glad you've been able to express it more clearly than I could considering some of the responses.

False edginess. Shove every nasty thing you can think of into a game to create a false edginess. From my perspective it's been added solely to create a 'tone' to attract a certain demographic and I don't like that. That's my opinion.