465 réponses à ce sujet

[Skavau]

Bob3terd

Unfortunatly the main flaw is that as the designers said they where
attempting to make a mature game but really failed to look up maturity
in the dictionary. It has the same approach as games like the witcher
who simply think that adding swearing, violence, sex and scandalous
material makes a game mature.

I'd be interested to know: What do you think constitutes a 'mature' game? I think at the minimum it must show introspection and analysis on controversial issues. I do think it most instances, Mass Effect in both games does do that. And it does it well.

A game which does not, is the GTA series. Although it does take more mature approach in its latest incarnation.

Mass effect 2 has nothing to say about those topics like the
experiments on jack as a child other than "it is bad m-kay", proving
they where only added their for shock value rather than anything of
real weight. A good example of a well written game is bioshock 1
although most would say its just dark and gritty is also has some
intresting family values hidden in it which help to bring light where
its needed and darken the shadows.

What do you suggest they do say about those topics like that of Jack? Apparently it is analysed if you follow her as a love interest. I know that there is some thought put in when you do her loyalty mission.

[MaaZeus]

OP has some very good points, but there are a lot that I disagree too.



For example, about the dark themes and being politically incorrect. Whats wrong in them? The world we live in is totally f****ed up, worse things happens about daily than this game can ever imagine. People are suffering. I am quite cynical person, yes, but that is the truth. However covering oneself from them helps nothing no matter what he has experienced before.



I enjoy these dark stories, and they are especially awesome when there is a solution to them. Blacker the darkness, brighter the light looks. Some stuff in ME2 was bit disturbing, especially because they seem to have RL counterparts, but that only gave me more resolve to do something about them. I liked them a lot. But I realise this is a POV subject, but dark, disturbing and hopeless stories (be it game, anime, movie or book) with good endings are what make me tick.



I enjoyed ME2 throughoutly thanks to the character developement, and I have hard time playing ME1 anymore even though it had much better overall story. My main problems with this game come from gameplay mechanics. Heavily consolified controls SUCK! They had almost perfect system in ME1, how they can screw ME2 so badly!? Action overall is more intense and therefore more interesting at the times, but was the cost too great? We have no inventory, no items, barebone powers, everything is stripped down and oversimplified. Also end boss was bulls***, WTF were they thinking!!!





I think Mondo47 putted what I mean into words really well. Kudos to you.

[NoShtSherlock]

Sherlock:
Also the difference between show opression and torture and things of that nature on DS 9 is that this was a tv show not a game that is supposed to be a form of entertainment. 


Llandaryn:
Because games aren't also a form of entertainment.


Sherlock:
Games are within the area of entertainment but a video game is very different from a tv show or movie.  The subjects and the genres for each are different in the basic elements they supply the audience.

A game is suppose to be fun not disturb you, or make you feel sick to your stomach and have stories of rape or child abuse in them.


Llandaryn:
Says who? Please link me to your objective source that states exactly what a computer game is supposed to be. Oh, you can't? That's because a game can be anything its developers want it to be.


Sherlock:
A definition of a game is an activity that is used for enjoyment and or education(a lesson to be learned within the game) like fables which were stories with moral lessons to be learned.

If the writer or Bioware wanted to provoke emotion then make a movie or a t'v show and add those nasty parts of life in.  But a computer game is suppose to be fun, entertaining etc.  Mass Effect 2 for me was not fun.


Llandaryn
Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean the developers made the game "wrong".


Sherlock:
The use of subject matter like child abuse, rape, torture and experiments on human beings needs to be always handled in a respectful and delicate manner.  Putting these topic in a video game for shock value or to make a game seem darker, brutal, violent or edgy is wrong to any decent human being.

Computer games are suppose to be a fun entertainment that lifts you out of reality for a little while.


Llandaryn:
Number of times that you have said "computer games are supposed to be fun...." in a single post: 1,571,451.

Lifting you out of reality? Hello, you're running around on a frigging space ship, conversing with aliens, trying to save the galaxy.

How much more removed from reality do you want to be?! This isn't space-Sims. You don't save the galaxy by buying a house, popping out a couple of kids and holding down a steady 9-5 job to buy material goods.


Sherlock:
No I am not looking for the Sims and you don't need act so anal.  This is suppose to be an adult thread for mature people.

Games are not suppose to wallow in the worst elements of human society and use these worst elements just so a game can be dark or edgy.


Llandaryn:
Again with what games are/are not supposed to be.

ME2 doesn't wallow. Yes, there's bad stuff, but you get to help people. You get to cure plagues and bring murderers to justice.



Sherlock:
Like the OP I too don't like this game for the way in which many area's of history have been used to make the game appear more brutal, violent, dark and edgy.

Llandaryn:
The message; under every facade of civility lurks a hidden monster. You can dress it up all you like, but it never goes away.


Sherlock:
Jack/Subject Zero has been brutalized in a Cerberus camp where the back story sounds like she could have been a child who survived the holocaust which is one of the worst times in are own history.


Llandaryn:
Right. Because the oppression and systematic extermination of entire groups of people is comparable to a fictional covert organisation doing fictional experiments on fictional children.


Sherlock:
I think it's pretty clear where Bioware got their ideas from and reading this thread I'm not the only one who sees this. The difference is I'm not sticking my head in the sand as you seem to be doing. Also, with Bioware's use of a Jewish prayer in the Quarian flotilla part of the game, it seems very clear to me that Bioware has deliberately taken from Jewish history.

She has been created with a barcode type tattoo around her shaven bald head. 


Llandaryn:
She gets the tattoos done herself.

Sherlock:
It doesn't matter, the imagery of the barcode conveys a very obvious meaning.

Sherlock:
I wonder if any of you had a relative that survived the ****s camps would you still think Jack's back story was rightly done to make her character darker or edgier and would you still think there was no problem with this?  Would you still think it was done in a respectful way?


Llandaryn:
I had a grandfather who serves in WWII and died shortly after it. I don't have a problem with the way Jack is portrayed now. Why speculate about how she might have been portrayed in different circumstances.

Sherlock:
No disrespect, but who doesn't have a grandfather who served in WWII. Also you can't compare someone in the army fighting an enemy with someone who has been forced into a concentration camp.

Sherlock:
Or what if one of you had a sister/mother/aunt/daughter who had been raped, molested would you see no problem with Jacob's loyality mission to give his back story a darker edge?


Llandaryn:
You didn't actually play Jack's loyalty mission, did you?

Sherlock:
yes I did, did you?


Sherlock:
But I agree that these themes and back stories to make the games darkier or have a brutal, violent theme should not have been put in the game to make it have a darker edge or make the game sell as a darker sequel.  I don't think these subjects were handled respectfully and they shouldn't have been put in a computer game.


Llandaryn:
You're entitled to your opinion (I think, I believe) but please stop with the redundant platitudes. "Should not" have been put into the game? Says who? You? The government? God? Your whole post is trite.

Sherlock:
Sorry but I find yours trite. You seem to suggest that your opinion is the important one.


Sherlock:
TV Series, Movies or Computer Game are three different areas of entertainment and what subjects could be handled well and fit well in a t.v series or movie are not the same kind of stories that should be put into games whether there for mature adults or 15 plus and that's in my personal opinion:)

Llandaryn:
Because, you know, nobody ever made a game based on a film. Or a film based on a game.

Sherlock:
Unrelated to the point I made.

<_

Also Llandaryn I don't understand how asking where I live has anything to do with this topic.  Unless you are planning to make some kind of racial remark.

Modifié par NoShtSherlock, 12 février 2010 - 05:42 .

[Iron Ranger]

I did asimlar post on its lacking "epicness". The story was very weak, in a game this long BW could have both a chr AND plot driven theam. We arnt talking about 2 hours of sc@reen time.

[Grammarye]

I guess I can see both sides of the argument. Warning: fair bit of text to follow. For the TL;DR crowd - use your brain and learn to read!

Whilst the OP is entitled to their opinion, I feel the latter half of their post detracts from their point, in that the thread has just ended up arguing about morals and their place in games. I'd rather focus on the plot, and plot vs character development - in particular that of our villains.

To me, ME1 felt like a superb interactive movie - by the time the credits were rolling, I was emotionally pumped up and still reliving each glorious moment - I almost expected a particularly accurate 'Commander Shepard will return' homage to James Bond at the end.... Yet so much of the game was spent not doing the main key pursuit of Saren, and I felt as a result that those sidequest choices fleshed out Shepard so much more. Saren & Sovereign overshadowed the game, lending real menace and unknown threat that was only partially revealed by the end. Yet the facts revealed mean that the galaxy can never be viewed in the same way - it's pretty heady stuff when you're taking all known history and turning it upside down.

Contrasting this with ME2, we receive more plot development about the geth than any other group, and that is in a few key conversations with Legion. The remainder can be summed up as 'the Collectors are Protheans' - well, ok, but what's your point? You spend so much time killing said ex-Protheans throughout the game that they don't exactly overshadow or provide much menace - there isn't even really a threat or an explanation of what they're doing and why; it's all speculation. The plot device where your crew is abducted is, frankly, abysmal - it also makes little sense if one contrasts previous encounters where the Collectors seem extremely keen on vapourising the Normandy - why suddenly are a few crewmembers worth abducting? You never really see any motivations - in ME1 Sovereign practically goes out of its way to give you at least some hints. The Human Reaper is so contrary to any existing plot that the lack of any explanation at all just leaves you wondering why it was introduced other than to justify the rest of the game.

Character development other than Shepard by comparison skyrockets in ME2 - we explore in depth the motivations and feelings of each squadmate, where previously in ME1 we were lucky if we got what became a loyalty mission. ME1 provided the opportunity to lay out Shepard's motivations and personality. ME2 did the same for the characters - and yet managed to rather irritatingly sidestep three of the main characters from ME1, which means either we as players empathise less with them now than our new teammates (relegating them even further to the sidelines in ME3) or we'll have to do much more with them in the final game to gain equivalent empathy. ME2 almost takes pains to effectively say 'ok Shepard is this person, don't change them, play the same way!' which is a little odd, firstly because people grow, and secondly because Shepard's personality reflects each of us and our personality/chosen roleplay; that is pretty unlikely to change in a big way.

Given the endless comparisons to The Empire Strikes Back, it's noteworthy that from start to end, the Rebels had gone from being chased off Hoth & Luke some fighter pilot to having the Alliance fleet almost ready to strike at the Death Star 2 & Luke a Jedi novice - any equivalent improvements in ME2 were either not there or so subtle that we cannot even begin to guess the impact (there are many decision points that can have clear potential effects for ME3 - the rachni and geth are two obvious ones - but at this point it's unclear what will lead to what).

Both games gave room for the player to define their Mass Effect world their way - I just think it's a pity that ME2 did so in a way that actually didn't further the storyline in any real sense. It gave no expansion of any of the factions present in the game - the ME universe actually felt smaller rather than bigger. ME3 has so many loose ends just from ME2 to wrap up that one wonders how they'll accomplish that and, oh by the way, deal with that minor thing of the Reaper threat...

Modifié par Grammarye, 11 février 2010 - 09:21 .

[schristofferson]

I agree that the Mass Effect 2 story was poor.  A lot of people compared it to Empire Strikes Back, but it was missing a key element: in ESB, the bad guys actually strike back.  In ME2, you foil an asinine Reaper plot that does little to further their long term goal to return to the galaxy.  I fear for ME3, and I really think this trilogy might end with a whimper if Bioware doesn't wake up.  The backstories of the various characters were the only things that kept ME2 alive as an RPG. 

It is sad to say this, but Halo 2 is a much better example of how to plot the middle part of a trilogy.

I also agree that ME2 was needlessly crass at points.  I liked the character of Miranda, but I was annoyed that she runs around in a skin tight body suit while everybody else around her is in full body armor.  A female military leader gains no respect by dressing like that and it really didn't fit into the story at all.  After ME1 did a decent job of portraying (and dresing) female characters without turning them into pinup girls (e.g., Ash, Liara), it is really disappointing that ME2 surrenders to the juvenile.

[harri_carri]

i agree with some things:

poor plot

the flirting was nearly unavoidable when female shepard which irked me since i seemed to disregard any romance in ME1.



But

I did enjoy the improved combat but not at the cost of story.

Personally if they had given closure with the old crew quicker i might have warmed to the new crew but even on the second play through i didn't like them more than ME1 crew.

[Llandaryn]

NoShtSherlock wrote...

You seem to suggest that your opinion is the important one.

/me points to signature

If you ever manage to fix your quote-fail, I might respond to the rest of your post. Until then, I have better things to do with my time than sort out your coding.

Like genetically engineer my own Blasto-assassin.

Where do you live, by the way?

[Bob3terd]

Skavau wrote...

Bob3terd

Unfortunatly the main flaw is that as the designers said they where
attempting to make a mature game but really failed to look up maturity
in the dictionary. It has the same approach as games like the witcher
who simply think that adding swearing, violence, sex and scandalous
material makes a game mature.

I'd be interested to know: What do you think constitutes a 'mature' game? I think at the minimum it must show introspection and analysis on controversial issues. I do think it most instances, Mass Effect in both games does do that. And it does it well.

A game which does not, is the GTA series. Although it does take more mature approach in its latest incarnation.

Mass effect 2 has nothing to say about those topics like the
experiments on jack as a child other than "it is bad m-kay", proving
they where only added their for shock value rather than anything of
real weight. A good example of a well written game is bioshock 1
although most would say its just dark and gritty is also has some
intresting family values hidden in it which help to bring light where
its needed and darken the shadows.

What do you suggest they do say about those topics like that of Jack? Apparently it is analysed if you follow her as a love interest. I know that there is some thought put in when you do her loyalty mission.

Well i dont think i explained my point very well as Ozymandius then took it out of context which made it seem i supported her.
I am not agaisnst sex, violence etc in computer games im merely stating that if you add them in its what you do with them that makes it mature. I didnt romance jack so mabye i missed out on the important side of pragia.

The point i was trying to make is this often people take such things at face value "its bad m-kay" and thats it if felt like thats all ME 2 was doing. For example the logs on pragia (jacks mission) where all fuzzy in disticnt holograms it dehumanizes them making them out to be simple 2d baddies, we found no way to humanize them at any point, its hard to make a point about mans inhumanity towards man when the badies seem completly void of humanity. i thought at the end instead it would have been much more apt to discover a ex-guard or scientist drawn back with a heavy consciounce and you then get to decided if he has paid for his crimes or not.
That would have been thought provoking and that would be mature!

Like i said simply adding a shock moment isnt mature but handling it well and making it challenge some beliefs and provoke a thoughtful emotional response is!

ME2 didnt quite do this for me i know they tried to achieve somthing like that but in the end i felt they simply didnt manage much more than simple shock if that. Jacobs mission i really felt had a good chance to make a point about the abuse of power and its corrupting influence but it seemed through what you found that the officers turned evil like an on off switch rather than the slow march or paranoia and power mungering taking their toll.

Modifié par Bob3terd, 11 février 2010 - 11:07 .

[Skavau]

Bobt3rd said:

I am not agaisnst sex, violence etc in computer games im merely
stating that if you add them in its what you do with them that makes it
mature. I didnt romance jack so mabye i missed out on the important
side of pragia.

Allegedly you did. I didn't either, but read that she talks about it a lot.

The point i was trying to make is this often people take such things at
face value "its bad m-kay" and thats it if felt like thats all ME 2 was
doing. For example the logs on pragia (jacks mission) where all fuzzy
in disticnt holograms it dehumanizes them making them out to be simple
2d baddies, we found no way to humanize them at any point, its hard to
make a point about mans inhumanity towards man when the badies seem
completly void of humanity.

This is all very subjective. It is up to the player what to make of it. It appears to be a specific Cerberus cell casually attempting a rogue operation. Why would they talk about it in moral dilemmas?

i thought at the end instead it would have been much more apt to
discover a ex-guard or scientist drawn back with a heavy consciounce
and you then get to decided if he has paid for his crimes or not.
That would have been thought provoking and that would be mature!

No, I think it would have been unncessary. You don't need to add someone to shed light at the end of the tunnel every single time at the end of every event. Nothing necessitates someone after committing wrongdoings, to engage in sincere self-analysis all of the time.

ME2 didnt quite do this for me i know they tried to achieve
somthing like that but in the end i felt they simply didnt manage much
more than simple shock if that. Jacobs mission i really felt had a good
chance to make a point about the abuse of power and its corrupting
influence but it seemed through what you found that the officers turned
evil like an on off switch rather than the slow march or paranoia and
power mungering taking their toll.

Why would it be necessary? Why would Shephard feel the need to go off on a tangent, explaining life-lessons about power and responsibility when it is patently obvious? Games that go out of their way to express that something is wrong come across as self-important blow their own trumpet.

Modifié par Skavau, 12 février 2010 - 12:47 .

[Bob3terd]

Skavau

Sorry i dont quite know what you mean by i "allegedly did"? If its about being agaisnt violence etc in computer games then im not, i was trying to point out the difference between mature and immature and ME 2 i expected maturity or what my view of it and was disappointed, does not mean however i dont enjoy immaturity .



As to pragia i personally feel that it was trying to communicate the horrific treatment of these children at the hands of these rogue cerberus chaps or ceberus in general. But if it was for shock value i personally dont really find it horrific if things like this happen, what really shocks me is that this would be that this happens at the hands of human beings, its easy to look at atrocities commited by monsters much more easily than it would be for ones commited by people. With comic book badies or monsters you would expect this and thus its a lot less shocking if however some one you would consider average could do such a thing its got a hell lot more punch the "how could people do this to another" effect.

As such i felt that making the scientists etc more human would have gone a way to giving the entire encounter more uumpf.



As to my scientist guard idea personally i felt it would have been a better than the other patient you encounter, that to me felt like the light at the end of the tunnel that was resolution i wanted i bit more of a ending where you walked away with a less black and white sense of completion to the lvl. But its personal opinion and as such may not be the same for all.



Finally as to Jacobs mission i wasn't trying to imply that Shepard should gather together all the crew make them sit down and talk about how power corrupts and sing hippie songs lol. And from the mission the statement was easily power corrupts in the wrong hands, and i didnt seem to explain myself to well.

Although the mission did the power corrupts, it seemed very unsubtle a bit to obvious, as i said the officers etc just seemed to switch from good to evil. Power sneaks up on you it felt like a good opportunity to show that its a gradual process that changes the most moral upright of us into right scum bags given the right amount of time. They where there several years but the diary entrys gave the impression it happened quickly and suddenly (another diary entry or 2 would have helped this i think).



Its all subjective to personal opinion of course i still enjoyed ME2 on the whole and please dont let my opionions tarnish your game play. Its nice to have a constructive talk about the game without it deriving into trolling .

[Nightwriter]

You know what I would’ve liked? It would’ve been neat for me if the Illusive Man had already recruited all your squadmates for your mission. As soon as you enter the Normandy, they’re there. “Here’s your crew, Shepard, I’ve brought you the team that can accomplish this, now it’s up to you”.



They may not like being there – Jack could still be in cryo, Grunt could still be in his tank, various other members could’ve been hired or even dragged there. But you begin the game and there they are, thrown in with each other. It’s crazy, but you have to make it work, you have to find out about these characters and keep them out of each other’s throats.



And then the story starts from there.

[Nightwriter]

You know what I would’ve liked? It would’ve been neat for me if the Illusive Man had already recruited all your squadmates for your mission. As soon as you enter the Normandy, they’re there. “Here’s your crew, Shepard, I’ve brought you the team that can accomplish this, now it’s up to you”.



They may not like being there – Jack could still be in cryo, Grunt could still be in his tank, various other members could’ve been hired or even dragged there. But you begin the game and there they are, thrown in with each other. It’s crazy, but you have to make it work, you have to find out about these characters and keep them out of each other’s throats.



And then the story starts from there.

[Moonbox]

You know what man? That would have probably been better than what they did. Skip the irrelevant and nonsensical 'recruitment' missions and give us a team. Now give us a story. We'll get to know the characters WHILE we're going through the story. That's how a good plot works. Instead, BioWare chose to give us meaningless, unrelated character monologues that had nothing to do with the Mass Effect storyline.

God, the more I look back at this game the more I dislike it. ME1 was my favorite RPG ever probably and this was a stinking mess. Hopefully BioWare doesn't use these same writers for ME3, or anything for that matter, because we could have got a more compelling plot from a highschooler.

[Kalfear]

Nightwriter wrote...


You know what I would’ve liked? It would’ve been neat for me if the Illusive Man had already recruited all your squadmates for your mission. As soon as you enter the Normandy, they’re there. “Here’s your crew, Shepard, I’ve brought you the team that can accomplish this, now it’s up to you”.

They may not like being there – Jack could still be in cryo, Grunt could still be in his tank, various other members could’ve been hired or even dragged there. But you begin the game and there they are, thrown in with each other. It’s crazy, but you have to make it work, you have to find out about these characters and keep them out of each other’s throats.

And then the story starts from there.

That could have worked actually as then the game would be built around you following clues to your end target rather then gathering a bunch of people that there is ZERO chance they dont swear feality to you anyways.

Really pissed me off that Bioware made such a big deal about earning your groupmates loyalty and in the end, there is zero chance you dont earn their loyalty (other then the romance thing).

[SurfaceBeneath]

I haven't even bothered to read.... well any of this thread except a few points, but I'm noticing a lot of people complaining about a lack of a strong antagonist figure? Really?



I personally think the Illusive Man is the best villain Bioware's ever done.

[Skavau]

Bob3terd wrote...

Skavau
Sorry i dont quite know what you mean by i "allegedly did"? If its about being agaisnt violence etc in computer games then im not, i was trying to point out the difference between mature and immature and ME 2 i expected maturity or what my view of it and was disappointed, does not mean however i dont enjoy immaturity .

As in, you allegedly missed out on the grinding down of Jack's character.

As to pragia i personally feel that it was trying to communicate the horrific treatment of these children at the hands of these rogue cerberus chaps or ceberus in general. But if it was for shock value i personally dont really find it horrific if things like this happen, what really shocks me is that this would be that this happens at the hands of human beings, its easy to look at atrocities commited by monsters much more easily than it would be for ones commited by people. With comic book badies or monsters you would expect this and thus its a lot less shocking if however some one you would consider average could do such a thing its got a hell lot more punch the "how could people do this to another" effect.
As such i felt that making the scientists etc more human would have gone a way to giving the entire encounter more uumpf.

It wasn't for shock value. You already knew Jack's past at the time. It was meant to express a ruined facility with audiologs that explained bits about it.

As to my scientist guard idea personally i felt it would have been a better than the other patient you encounter, that to me felt like the light at the end of the tunnel that was resolution i wanted i bit more of a ending where you walked away with a less black and white sense of completion to the lvl. But its personal opinion and as such may not be the same for all.

Some things in life can be described as black and white, other things are not so.

Finally as to Jacobs mission i wasn't trying to imply that Shepard should gather together all the crew make them sit down and talk about how power corrupts and sing hippie songs lol. And from the mission the statement was easily power corrupts in the wrong hands, and i didnt seem to explain myself to well.

Why does it need to? Jacob was outraged. That was all the game primarily needed to get across over anything else.

Although the mission did the power corrupts, it seemed very unsubtle a bit to obvious, as i said the officers etc just seemed to switch from good to evil. Power sneaks up on you it felt like a good opportunity to show that its a gradual process that changes the most moral upright of us into right scum bags given the right amount of time. They where there several years but the diary entrys gave the impression it happened quickly and suddenly (another diary entry or 2 would have helped this i think).

Okay. I don't remember how gradual it was specifically.

Its all subjective to personal opinion of course i still enjoyed ME2 on the whole and please dont let my opionions tarnish your game play. Its nice to have a constructive talk about the game without it deriving into trolling .

Indeed it is.

[JamieCOTC]

I've played ME1 two times. I'm on my 4th playthrough on ME2. Different strokes.

[yummysoap]

= this thread.

[NoShtSherlock]

What was that a self portrait.  Given your "contribution" to this thread I'd guess your age isn't that far removed from the picture you posted.

Modifié par NoShtSherlock, 12 février 2010 - 05:33 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Ozymandias23 wrote...

The parallels with history are hard to ignore. The children of Bullenhuser Damm, brought from Auschwitz to Neuengamme for experimentation.  Is this really suitable for inclusion in something that is supposed to be a source of entertainment?

How dare fiction be thought-provoking!

Samara’s loyalty mission was another that I took issue with, though for very different reasons.  We’re presented with her daughter, Morinth, a sexual predator, whose victims are killed by engaging in sex with her. We’re instructed to go to the apartment where her last victim Nef, a young girl, lived with her mother. The mother
allows us into Nef’s room where we listen to her video diary in order to find the password to allow us into the club where Morinth stalks her victims. The diary entries chart Nef’s first meeting with Morinth and mentions the beginning of an attraction between them. In one of the diary entries Nef comments that Morinth is a girl, that she’s attracted to a girl and asks ‘am I a freak?’

Why would this make her a freak? Why? Intentional or not, there is a suggestion there of homophobia.

You're complaining that a character in a fictional piece has PERSONALITY? I bet you also thought Herman Melville had a thing against Whales.

[davidt0504]

Ozymandias23 wrote...
I also found the portrayal of women in Mass Effect 2 offensive at times. On Omega the Asari seemed to have been assigned the role of strippers, pole dancers and prostitutes. There seemed to be a recurring theme that
suggested women were play things, to be used and abused when opportunity permitted. This theme carried through to Jacob’s loyalty mission, a mission that I found disturbing on an emotional level and absolutely sickening.

In that mission we were presented with a scenario where a ship had crash landed, the captain had separated out the female crew members and placed them in a camp. He then gave these women to his officers to be used
as play things. The idea was horrific. Perhaps Bioware feel that the suggestion of rape is suitable content for their ‘dark and edgy’ video game but I don’t.  It was uncalled for and I found it sickening and disturbing. For me it evoked parallels with some of the atrocities carried out in ‘camps’ across Europe during World War 2.

This feeling continued into Subject Zero’s loyalty mission where we’re provided with a story about the abuse of children. Children bought or stolen, ripped away from home and family, transported to a facility in crates, half starved and experimented upon, injected with substances to see what effect it would have. The parallels with history are hard to ignore. The children of Bullenhuser Damm, brought from Auschwitz to Neuengamme for experimentation.  Is this really suitable for inclusion in something that is supposed to be a source of entertainment?

I remember watching the E3 reveal trailer and Derek Watts, the art director, talking about how nasty ME2 was in parts and asking his colleagues ‘have we gone too far?’.  Well my answer would be yes, you did.

Samara’s loyalty mission was another that I took issue with, though for very different reasons.  We’re presented with her daughter, Morinth, a sexual predator, whose victims are killed by engaging in sex with her. We’re instructed to go to the apartment where her last victim Nef, a young girl, lived with her mother. The mother
allows us into Nef’s room where we listen to her video diary in order to find the password to allow us into the club where Morinth stalks her victims. The diary entries chart Nef’s first meeting with Morinth and mentions the beginning of an attraction between them. In one of the diary entries Nef comments that Morinth is a girl, that she’s attracted to a girl and asks ‘am I a freak?’

Why would this make her a freak? Why? Intentional or not, there is a suggestion there of homophobia.

So you really wanted sunshine and rainbows? would you have prefered that unicorns were sold on omega? did you want gnomes to greet you on illium and escort you to the marshmellow villiage?  I don't mean to sound like a jerk (even though I know I am haha but come on) have you been out into the world and met the average human being?  We are quite capable of incredible autrocities and this game took place in the Terminus systems, the lawless, pirate sector.  We also were working with Cerberus, a rogue organization that will do whatever it takes to secure human dominance... whatever it takes.  So does it not seem fitting that we see strippers and prostitutes on omega? there were other women and they were mercs because it was a criminal slum hole.  If you watch the news any you'd know just how depraved some humans can be as far as sexualty depravity goes, when talking about Jacob's loyalty mission you were shown a man who was given control over other human beings, and he didn't go the paragon route of taking care of them.  All during that mission it was apparent that bioware wanted you to think that the things done one this planet, to these people was horrifying and monstrous, and obviously they got the message across .  And same thing goes for cerberus and their treatment of children, it all went to produce the image of the galaxy much darker and dirtier than mass 1.  In mass effect 1 you were shown either the center of the galactic community (ala the citadel) and the fringes of space where there wasn't much going on anyways, this one wanted you to see the dark, ugly side.  I would also add one more thing that the things you say is too much in me2 is nothing compared to the things happening in many other parts of the world today.

[davidt0504]

oh yeah and the thing about morinth, she was not refering to being homophobic, but worried about being attracted to another species.

[Skavau]

I've already produced a response to Ozy's original post, I should like to post a few more responses to some other things I have noted that she (I assume that it is a she) said. I am interested in a response:

Yes life can be unpleasant at times, horrible things happen to
people, sometimes through no fault of their own.  Life teaches us this
lesson time and again through our own experiences and the experiences
of loved ones. I would agree that encountering the difficult side of
life gives us a fuller appreciation of the good times, of the things
that make life worth living.

However I am not, as some of the
posters in this thread have suggested, hiding my head in the sand,
trying to avoid or deny the unpleasant side of life. Quite the
contrary, I am looking clearly at the content of this game and seeing
the parallels with REAL LIFE events that Bioware seems to have used as
inspiration for achieving their goal of creating a ‘dark and edgy’
universe.

Indeed, you are not. You are however apparently insinuating that media content impose on itself self-censorship because it deals with issues, and portrays issues in ways that you, personally (for ridiculous reasons) find offensive. You are free to set yourself up to not play the game. You are free to take offense, but you are not free to insist the world observe this.

We’re introduced to a character, Subject Zero, who has been abused,
experimented upon and forced to fight like an animal against other
abused, starving children. Still a child, we’re told she fights and
kills to obtain her freedom, escapes on a ship only to be ‘used’ by the
crew. As an adult, with her shaven head and futuristic barcode tattooed
onto her scalp, she has become just as brutal as her captors; she has
become someone who perpetrates violence and abuse upon others.

There
was a time in history when human beings were treated like cattle, had
numbers tattooed onto their skin and as I sit here, a few days after
the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau, I find the
manner in which this content was dealt with in Mass Effect 2 offensive.

Why? Are you serious?

I am no fan of Jack myself. The aspects of her character sum up what I hate in any story - however Bioware has as much right as they like to introduce her as a character. The fact that you think it draws obvious parallels to the Auschwitz concentration camp is frankly, your own sensitivities. The real question is the introduction of Jack consistent with the universe of Mass Effect? It is. We see that Cerberus has in the past, attempted to create biotic super-soldiers for their own ends (Ascension) and we know that Cerberus (or their branches) are capable of horrendous acts.

I don't agree that it makes sense to actively try and recruit Jack, but her existence is entirely plausible. I'm sorry it offends you because it draws some parallels to some historical events. Do you propose as a consequence that such character concepts be scrapped? That Mass Effect, or indeed all forms of fiction forgo all similar concepts because of the fact that it upsets you?

Events like this should be explored so that we always remember,
however the manner in which it is explored is just as important. If you
look to the past you will find that Bioware have used one of the
greatest tragedies in human history as source material for creating a
dark, gritty game and for no other reason that I can see than a cynical
attempt to attract a certain demographic and generate sales.

Don't be ridiculous.

I do not expect that Jack's history was based on that of the Auschwitz camp, or a survivor. It is just the idea of a corporation, or an organisation attempting to produce super-soldiers for their own means is a concept that is quite highly used in literature. Bioshock (to a much further degree), Deus Ex and Fallout 3 (experimentation) are just three games that I can think of that deal with very similar things. The Halo novel series also deal with it.

Do you condemn them all as well?

Add to this the portrayal of women in Mass Effect 2 as play things,
objects to be used and abused when opportunity permits and the more
subtle negative portrayal of homosexuality and I find myself playing a
game that treats serious issues in a manner I find unpalatable. In my
opinion this is a game with practically no plot that has cynically used
real life issues to pad a weak story and to artificially construct a
dark, gritty environment for financial gain.

What are you talking about?

I don't think Subject Zero is portrayed as a 'play-thing'. Miranda certainly isn't. Samara is portrayed as an extremely strong women. Morinth is liable to kill anyone who considers a play-thing. Do you think Aria is portrayed as a play-thing? Gianna?

Indeed, I repeat what are you talking about?

I also felt the portrayal of women in ME2 was very different to
ME1. Yes you had the consort and the dancers, but you also had a strong
postive portrayal of women right along side that. You had women who
were commanding ships, commanding troups etc. In ME2, if you save the
council, they're weak and impotent, hiding from the truth. There are
numerous references on Omega to female prostitues. Aria, a crime boss,
deceitful, dishonest - hardly the most positive of images.

Oh for crying out loud...

Are you insisting upon absolute equality amongst representation of good and evil? What, did you go around counting the amount of bad female role models and the good female role models whilst then comparing them to the male ones?

This is just an over-the-top complaint. Can you even think of anyone that permanently resides on Omega that is a good person and role model material? I can't. How about the possibility that rather than portraying women as meat it actually portrays men as sexist pigs? It is just as valid complaint as the one you're making.

As for the negative portrayal of homosexuality, I'll quote a comment jib524 made earlier in this thread

"It
would be OK, if there were positive homosexual relationships shown to
balance that out.  There were none.  As I've mentioned, not even the
asari were in 'homosexual' relationships as all were with male aliens
or had male alien parents.

The contempt by many Asari for despising the 'pureblood' appears to be ironic in that mostly in media (and in the real world) you have groups of people that only procreate amongst their own racial lines, or would rather procreate amongst their own racial lines. The Asari buck the trend and have a society where it is considered wrong to procreate with another Asari. I quite like that development of them and deem a developed bigotry entirely consistent with their character of being open-minded and liberal to other species.

I'd geniunely like to see you respond to this Ozy (as well as my other post on Page 15). I've only seen you address a few posts in this thread. Other than that you've just been agreeing with other posts

[Ozymandias23]

[quote]Skavau wrote...

I've already produced a response to Ozy's original post, I should like to post a few more responses to some other things I have noted that she (I assume that it is a she) said. I am interested in a response:

[quote]
Yes life can be unpleasant at times, horrible things happen to
people, sometimes through no fault of their own.  Life teaches us this
lesson time and again through our own experiences and the experiences
of loved ones. I would agree that encountering the difficult side of
life gives us a fuller appreciation of the good times, of the things
that make life worth living.

However I am not, as some of the
posters in this thread have suggested, hiding my head in the sand,
trying to avoid or deny the unpleasant side of life. Quite the
contrary, I am looking clearly at the content of this game and seeing
the parallels with REAL LIFE events that Bioware seems to have used as
inspiration for achieving their goal of creating a ‘dark and edgy’
universe.[/quote]

[quote]
Indeed, you are not. You are however apparently insinuating that media content impose on itself self-censorship because it deals with issues, and portrays issues in ways that you, personally (for ridiculous reasons) find offensive. You are free to set yourself up to not play the game. You are free to take offense, but you are not free to insist the world observe this.
[/quote]

No I am not insinuating any such thing. What I am saying is that if these kind of issues, such as the Holocaust, are going to used as 'inspiration' for game content then they should be treated in a respectful way. Bioware didn't do this in my opinion.

[quote]
We’re introduced to a character, Subject Zero, who has been abused,
experimented upon and forced to fight like an animal against other
abused, starving children. Still a child, we’re told she fights and
kills to obtain her freedom, escapes on a ship only to be ‘used’ by the
crew. As an adult, with her shaven head and futuristic barcode tattooed
onto her scalp, she has become just as brutal as her captors; she has
become someone who perpetrates violence and abuse upon others.

There
was a time in history when human beings were treated like cattle, had
numbers tattooed onto their skin and as I sit here, a few days after
the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau, I find the
manner in which this content was dealt with in Mass Effect 2 offensive.[/quote]

[quote]
Why? Are you serious?

I am no fan of Jack myself. The aspects of her character sum up what I hate in any story - however Bioware has as much right as they like to introduce her as a character. The fact that you think it draws obvious parallels to the Auschwitz concentration camp is frankly, your own sensitivities. The real question is the introduction of Jack consistent with the universe of Mass Effect? It is. We see that Cerberus has in the past, attempted to create biotic super-soldiers for their own ends (Ascension) and we know that Cerberus (or their branches) are capable of horrendous acts.

I don't agree that it makes sense to actively try and recruit Jack, but her existence is entirely plausible. I'm sorry it offends you because it draws some parallels to some historical events. Do you propose as a consequence that such character concepts be scrapped? That Mass Effect, or indeed all forms of fiction forgo all similar concepts because of the fact that it upsets you?[/quote]

I think it's very obvious that Bioware used Jewish history, culture and
religion as 'inspiration' for aspects of Mass Effect 2. There have been
several threads popping up on this forum were numerous people have
commented on the references to the Jews. I believe one topic was
entitled 'are the Quarians Jewish?' Not a surprising question
considering the Jewish prayer that Bioware has the Quarian judge recite
during Tali's trial, a prayer that is repeated almost verbatim. I doubt
you could suggest that 'my own sensitivities' have caused me to notice
that link.

There are numerous Jewish references through out
Mass Effect 2 which adds to the impression that parallels to events which took place in
concentration camps were deliberate as opposed to something I'm seeing because of 'my own sensitivites'. My point is this, if a game contains content that
seems to parallel events that occured during the Holocaust the
developers should, out of respect, ensure that they have something
worthwhile to say about it. Mass Effect 2 had nothing to say about it
which reinforces the impression that it was added solely for shock
value to create a dark, edgy atmosphere.

I came across a
discussion the other day about whether Bioware have left themselves
open to accusations of anti-semitism given the Jewish references in Mass Effect 2. Hardly surprising in my opinion.

[quote]Events like this should be explored so that we always remember,
however the manner in which it is explored is just as important. If you
look to the past you will find that Bioware have used one of the
greatest tragedies in human history as source material for creating a
dark, gritty game and for no other reason that I can see than a cynical
attempt to attract a certain demographic and generate sales.[/quote]

[quote]Don't be ridiculous.

I do not expect that Jack's history was based on that of the Auschwitz camp, or a survivor. It is just the idea of a corporation, or an organisation attempting to produce super-soldiers for their own means is a concept that is quite highly used in literature. Bioshock (to a much further degree), Deus Ex and Fallout 3 (experimentation) are just three games that I can think of that deal with very similar things. The Halo novel series also deal with it.

Do you condemn them all as well?[/quote]

Please see my response to your previous comment.

[quote]
Add to this the portrayal of women in Mass Effect 2 as play things,
objects to be used and abused when opportunity permits and the more
subtle negative portrayal of homosexuality and I find myself playing a
game that treats serious issues in a manner I find unpalatable. In my
opinion this is a game with practically no plot that has cynically used
real life issues to pad a weak story and to artificially construct a
dark, gritty environment for financial gain.[/quote]

[quote]What are you talking about?

I don't think Subject Zero is portrayed as a 'play-thing'. Miranda certainly isn't. Samara is portrayed as an extremely strong women. Morinth is liable to kill anyone who considers a play-thing. Do you think Aria is portrayed as a play-thing? Gianna?

Indeed, I repeat what are you talking about?[/quote]

Jacob's loyalty mission, the general attitude towards women in the game. Try playing as male Shepard, then play as female Shepard ... notice the difference?

[quote]I also felt the portrayal of women in ME2 was very different to
ME1. Yes you had the consort and the dancers, but you also had a strong
postive portrayal of women right along side that. You had women who
were commanding ships, commanding troups etc. In ME2, if you save the
council, they're weak and impotent, hiding from the truth. There are
numerous references on Omega to female prostitues. Aria, a crime boss,
deceitful, dishonest - hardly the most positive of images.[/quote]

[quote]Oh for crying out loud...

Are you insisting upon absolute equality amongst representation of good and evil? What, did you go around counting the amount of bad female role models and the good female role models whilst then comparing them to the male ones?

This is just an over-the-top complaint. Can you even think of anyone that permanently resides on Omega that is a good person and role model material? I can't. How about the possibility that rather than portraying women as meat it actually portrays men as sexist pigs? It is just as valid complaint as the one you're making.[/quote]

Might I suggest you re- read what I wrote.

[quote]As for the negative portrayal of homosexuality, I'll quote a comment jib524 made earlier in this thread

"It
would be OK, if there were positive homosexual relationships shown to
balance that out.  There were none.  As I've mentioned, not even the
asari were in 'homosexual' relationships as all were with male aliens
or had male alien parents.[/quote]

The contempt by many Asari for despising the 'pureblood' appears to be ironic in that mostly in media (and in the real world) you have groups of people that only procreate amongst their own racial lines, or would rather procreate amongst their own racial lines. The Asari buck the trend and have a society where it is considered wrong to procreate with another Asari. I quite like that development of them and deem a developed bigotry entirely consistent with their character of being open-minded and liberal to other species.

I'd geniunely like to see you respond to this Ozy (as well as my other post on Page 15). I've only seen you address a few posts in this thread. Other than that you've just been agreeing with other posts
[/quote]

I have only addressed a few posts in this thread for the simple reason that I don't frequent this forum regularly because of other commitments and because it has become a fairly unpleasant place to be. Have you noticed the racial hate threads that have popped up recently?

As for the Asari, an interesting perspective, however you seem to have side stepped the point. It wasn't a comment about Asari - Asari relationships. Jib's comment,s which I quoted, were referencing the fact that the Asaris we saw were all in relationships with male aliens. None of them seemed to be in relationships with female aliens which is odd for a species were gender has no meaning.