465 réponses à ce sujet

[Tokalla]

NoShtSherlock wrote...

We all don't live in US or Canada where it has a mature rating.  In the UK the rating is 15 and to many people 15 year old's are not mature adults?

While I certainly understand a desire to protect those not able to handle the mature content present, I feel that has never been the primary motivation behind this thread's creation.  Were such a goal the actual point, then logic would indicate complaints should be made to the societies or organizations that place ratings you feel are not appropriate for the material.  As complaints to those who created the game will have virtually no impact on protecting groups not mature enough to handle such content from other possible sources (like other game developers).

Let's not pretend that the outrage being claimed has anything to do with protecting those not yet ready for the material, as we all know this is an utterly moronic method to seek the degree of change that would be needed to actually serve such an agenda.

[Lequin]

the fact that you feel digusted or feel anything means that the game's story had an effective on some level and you fine that poorly written?

you rant was basically the game wasn't politically correct (had references to rape, child abuse stuff like that) but no problemo with the whole killing other npcs in either games. i mean, shooting other people (humans! people who are the poorest of the poor trying to survive by joining merc bands) in the head is cool when the blood splatters! killing is cool, "fun" huh, but referencing other parts of society isn't?

........

it's a mature game based in the worst (currently) known system in the galaxy that the game is based in. the dark elements are there, because it's a dark place. dark elements are drawn from real life because it's what you can relate too and invokes emotion in players. it also focuses alot more on character depth, hence the loyalty missions that make you feel empathy towards your npcs.

anyway, i thought it was well done. can't wait for a 3rd!

Modifié par Lequin, 16 février 2010 - 09:09 .

[Jebel Krong]

OP you obviously didn't get the point of the game. allegories are one of the tools that makes science fiction so entertaining - who could forget season 3 of battlestar galactica and all the comparisons to ww2 camps etc? it enrichens the universe, makes it more compelling and grounds it in a realism. obviously mature games aren't for you, though so i'd go back to wii sports resort or something - sounds more up your street.

[Remaix]

A good story is not there to make you feel good about yourself. It's there to make you feel.

Mass Effect 2 succeeded in that, I believe.

[dissonance-zaon]

Quick 2 cents: Agree that the main story is lacking. But ME2 did a great job of fleshing out what was already there. Completely disagree with the "I'm offended = bad writing".

[Mr Mononoke]

I think it's nice to see political correctness go by the wayside in a game that doesn't venture into the arena of kitsch. If your sensibilities are so easily offended, I suggest you expand your worldview and maybe realize that if people didn't take everything (and themselves) so seriously, we'd probably be alot better off as a whole.

[JnEricsonx]

I loved the first game, loved the second game, I'm drooling for the 3rd. Now, if they can make the 3rd game like a good 40+ hours, I'll be in heaven.

[fateofman]

this thread should have been dead.... let it go in peace

[tsd16]

Ozymandias23 wrote...


I’ve just finished my first and what will be my only play though of Mass Effect 2 and I thought I’d share some thoughts. Be warned, this is a long one!

I play games for entertainment, for enjoyment.  Mass Effect 1 was a game I returned to time and time again for the sheer pleasure of playing it. In spite of its flaws, it was a lot of fun, had some fantastic characters, an uplifting story that was developed throughout the game and an outstanding final mission. Several parts always stood out for me. The speech the council gives as shepard is made a Spectre. Shepard’s speech to the crew as she takes control of the Normandy. The reveal on Virmire as Shepard finally has the chance to speak with Sovereign. Ilos, Vigil and fighting our way back to the Citadel for the race through the maintenance ducts to reach Saren in time.

The story was exceptional in my opinion. Each main mission introduced another key part of the plot, another clue revealing Saren’s motivations and driving the story forward. The story rose to a crescendo as Shepard and her
team mates went though the Mu Relay, fought their way through Ilos, discovered Vigil and risked everything to return to the Citadel for the final confrontation with Saren, his Geth and Sovereign. I remember the first time I
completed Mass Effect 1, sitting with tears in my eyes as the human fleet saved the destiny ascension.

Mass Effect 1 was not perfect but it had engaging, charismatic characters and an uplifting story that brought me back to it time and time again. From my perspective it was a game with a lot of class and rightly deserved the title of masterpiece in spite of its flaws.

Unfortunately I cannot say the same for Mass Effect 2. I found it crass, tasteless and deeply unpleasant. Bioware seems to have forced every nasty thing they could think of into Mass Effect 2 and in doing so utterly destroyed the feel of the Mass Effect universe. Mass Effect 2 is not a sequel to Mass Effect 1. It is a spin off. The moments where I actually felt I was playing Mass Effect were all too brief.

The ‘story’ of Mass Effect 2 was unbelievably poor and I find it impossible to believe the same person wrote both games.

There seemed to be no narrative structure to the game. The plot, such as it was, was utterly contrived, unconvincing and frankly embarrassingly bad in places.  I have never played a Bioware game that had such a weak, threadbare story, such stilted dialogue or borrowed so heavily from other sources such as Babylon 5, Star Trek, and Terminator etc. The final battle was absurd. I won’t spoil it for anyone who hasn’t played the entire game; all I will say is that a cameo from Governor Schwarzenegger would not have been out of place. It was ridiculous and utterly inferior to the end game of Mass Effect 1 in every possible way.

Having Shepard die, be rebuilt and be upgraded throughout the game with more and more synthetic parts was pointless and only served as a flimsy attempt to force the player to accept working with Cerberus. It didn’t work on any level in my opinion. The two year gap was a transparent excuse to off load the original squad mates whose personalities did not fit into the type of game Bioware wanted to make. This might have worked better if they had been replaced by characters with equal charisma. They were not, in my opinion, with the only exception being Legion and EDI.

Once Shepard was alive again and the Collectors had been identified as the enemy the ‘plot’ then took on the appearance of a grocery list. Gather specialists, do loyalty missions, gather minerals to upgrade the Normandy and then do the final mission. Personally I found it slow moving and monotonous and frankly I was bored. There were too many new squad mates and it made it difficult to feel any attachment to any of them, even if I had found their personalities appealing, which I didn’t. And whilst the new Normandy was beautiful, I had the overwhelming urge to off load the crew and fumigate the ship.

Though out this period of the game, there was little or no story progression.  The conversations with the squad mates seemed designed to railroad the player into embarking on a new romance. After one conversation with Jacob the flirting and innuendo began, and I could find no dialogue option that simply said I’m not interested. Shepard’s lines were also delivered in a forced flirty tone over which the player was given no control, not one option for her to speak in a normal tone of voice.  As for the crew, even the NPCs, speak to them at all and you had to listen to crass, lewd, suggestive comments. Wander though the bar on Illium and it was the same, crass, tasteless remarks and of course sexual innuendo. Perhaps that is titillating if you’re 15, however as an adult with
a life it became incredibly tedious incredibly quickly. Mass Effect 1 didn’t need to resort to this sort of thing to garner sales.

I also found the portrayal of women in Mass Effect 2 offensive at times. On Omega the Asari seemed to have been assigned the role of strippers, pole dancers and prostitutes. There seemed to be a recurring theme that
suggested women were play things, to be used and abused when opportunity permitted. This theme carried through to Jacob’s loyalty mission, a mission that I found disturbing on an emotional level and absolutely sickening.

In that mission we were presented with a scenario where a ship had crash landed, the captain had separated out the female crew members and placed them in a camp. He then gave these women to his officers to be used
as play things. The idea was horrific. Perhaps Bioware feel that the suggestion of rape is suitable content for their ‘dark and edgy’ video game but I don’t.  It was uncalled for and I found it sickening and disturbing. For me it evoked parallels with some of the atrocities carried out in ‘camps’ across Europe during World War 2.

This feeling continued into Subject Zero’s loyalty mission where we’re provided with a story about the abuse of children. Children bought or stolen, ripped away from home and family, transported to a facility in crates, half starved and experimented upon, injected with substances to see what effect it would have. The parallels with history are hard to ignore. The children of Bullenhuser Damm, brought from Auschwitz to Neuengamme for experimentation.  Is this really suitable for inclusion in something that is supposed to be a source of entertainment?

I remember watching the E3 reveal trailer and Derek Watts, the art director, talking about how nasty ME2 was in parts and asking his colleagues ‘have we gone too far?’.  Well my answer would be yes, you did.

Samara’s loyalty mission was another that I took issue with, though for very different reasons.  We’re presented with her daughter, Morinth, a sexual predator, whose victims are killed by engaging in sex with her. We’re instructed to go to the apartment where her last victim Nef, a young girl, lived with her mother. The mother
allows us into Nef’s room where we listen to her video diary in order to find the password to allow us into the club where Morinth stalks her victims. The diary entries chart Nef’s first meeting with Morinth and mentions the beginning of an attraction between them. In one of the diary entries Nef comments that Morinth is a girl, that she’s attracted to a girl and asks ‘am I a freak?’

Why would this make her a freak? Why? Intentional or not, there is a suggestion there of homophobia.

Ultimately I loved Mass Effect 1 and I want to genuinely thank Bioware for producing such a fantastic game that gave me many hours of enjoyment.  As for Mass Effect 2, it has been a disappointment on almost every level.  Its tone, the story quality, the squad mates, all vastly inferior to Mass Effect 1 in my opinion. I’m afraid it has killed this IP for me and I truly regret my decision to purchase it.

Go back to church.   Your complaints with the darker side of the story are ludicrous.   There are plenty big box office films with far worse instances of what you are describing, and actually show it.  Take the movie "Blindness" for example with Mark Ruffalo and the chick from boogie nights (her name illudes me).   There is a point in the film where women are essentially raped en masse and it shows it, including a guy holding a gun to a girls head while she gives him a bj.  For your complaints on tasteless I am surprised you arent petioning for a movie like that to be banned.

But maybe you are right, jack should have come from a childhood where it rains gold coins, people **** snickers bars, and ****** mountain dew.  

So should movies like Schindlers List be banned? Because they are so tasteless? (according to you).

Perhaps the Scum of the universe that live at omega should be more gentlemanly? Maybe throw their coat on a puddle for you?  Ask Garrus for permission to court you? Recite love poems outside the normandy?

As for Nefs reaction, I can imagine any person experiencing ******-sexual thoughts for the first time, might think there is something wrong with them because they arent like everyone else.  Its not ******-phobia, its a reaction I might expect from someone to initially have despite the fact there is nothing wrong with them.


Jeebus.   Go watch the movie PCU starring Jeremy Piven, you belong there.

Modifié par tsd16, 16 février 2010 - 11:27 .

[OrionUnas]

Rilke21 wrote...

OrionUnas wrote...

there is no point in arguing with the femanist movment, no offence to you all, but you all got your head up your arses. At the end of the day, it's just a video game. Get over it.

On that note, I really wish bleeding hearts would die of their prolonged chronic disease.

Pssh.

I've studied feminist philosophy in detail, and it's true that some of the work is just plain irrational. (Guess what: that can be said of ALL philosophy.) But to say that "femanists" have their heads up their asses is something of a self-defeating argument, wouldn't you say? Let me spell it out for you: if you argue that all feminists are morons, you make a ridiculous and unsupportable assumption, proving in the process that YOU are a moron.

Not that I'm calling you a moron or anything. But if I was, I'd probably wish that there was a space shuttle to the sun with your name on it.

actually i said arses

[OrionUnas]

Ozymandias23 wrote...

Mondo47 wrote...

Like a few folk here, I don't agree with everything the original poster said, but I'll give them kudos for a pretty good argument/statement of opinon. Here's my two cents in response (I apologise in advance for the Wall-o-Text experience ahead of time):

I saw ME2 as being very much the dark middle-chapter of a suitably epic story (all the Empire Strikes Back comparisons through the boards suggest I'm far from alone here). So for ME2 the content was suitably grimier and more ambiguous; characters struggled with hard pasts and unpleasant moral choices, while Shepard constructed his Dirty Dozen and assisted them in some way or another in putting their past misdeeds or experiences behind them. Shepard as a character helps them grow out of where they are into a place where they can go into the future and step onto the next page of their lives.

As for the unpleasant elements of the story, ok, I can see how some
people would be offended or distressed by some of them. Epic stories
have though been filled with disturbing themes for centuries; in fact,
sometimes the further back you go, the worse they get - rape, murder,
torture, incest, genocide, fratracide, infantacide, and those are just
the common ones. History itself is full of it, too. I'll agree that the whole young Asari running off to
be pole-dancers, mercs, waitresses and floozys thing was a bit of a
relic of the juvenile James T Kirk school of alien cultures (as in
female aliens are there to be a funny colour, dress in skimpy nothings
and throw themselves at rugged male hero-types), but I was willing to
buy the whole 300-year teenage phase thing and it is a very old trope of sci-fi fiction now. Not a very PC one, but one that will take a while yet to abraid into something less juvenile. That is though a very minor aspect in something as large as the ME series. Sci-fi is a little phallocentric in its politics at times, as is a lot fantasy and horror fiction (though not all, admittedly). Gender politics will always be fighting a tough battle to get correct representation, but no one game/book/movie will ever please everyone.

While it was never said, I saw Shepard's quest in ME2 for the team's loyalty not so much as a means to make them survive, but as a way to make them want to survive; instead of throwing themselves suicidally at the enemy, they fight with a passion to live beyond the final battle, earning either redemption, hope or direction to become new people no longer shackled to ghosts of their pasts (Miranda's envy of normality, Jacob's relationship with his father, Jack's childhood of torture and abuse, Grunt's lack of connection to his heritage, Thane's desire to make amends, Mordin's contemplation of ethics and morality, etc.). Shepard is not so much marching them into doom, but trying to save them from their own personal dooms though facing a greater one.

Just using Jack's origin story as an example (because the character seems to be one people either love or hate with seemingly no middle ground), it could not have in my eyes worked in any other way. Without such a horrible past to have endured, Jack would have been a simple sociopathic criminal with a tendency to drop f-bombs left and right, only brought along to blow things apart and thus as disposable as a bag of demo-charges. The character's endurance of terrible wrongs was responsible for the shape she had grown into, and without seeing and experiencing the unpleasant reality of it, she would have been a character the audience could develop no serious empathy for. Instead understanding her past made me at least want to know more about her and see if there was a way to free her from the bonds of the past. It made her my favorite character of the game, hands down.

Jacob's story had a similar vein, placing him in his father's shadow and using the abhorent events on the planet's surface to demonstrate once and for all he was the better man. That one could have been a little better drawn out in my eyes, but I could see what it was aiming for. Without the moral questions, without the darkness, there would have been much less meaning, and much less to make the characters more detailed. And if you didn't care, empathise, sympathise or just plain like the characters, would you really want to see any of them survive? Or would you just fire them at the Collectors and forget them? Bad things happen to good people in the real world, things that often have no excuse. These events shape them. The game was doing just that, and I feel that the dark, seedy and horrifying aspects of this were needed to paint such a shady world correctly and realistically.

The story took the form of character studies more than part of a big, over-arcing plot in my eyes; an interlude on the way to the main event (which Empire certainly is to continue the comparison), and while I agree that the main thrust of the story outside of the new crew could have had some more depth and a couple less plot holes in it, it was certainly more engaging to me than say Dragon Age: Origins was (that's just me personally - I still played DA:O through and enjoyed it, with the exception of one of the final plot twists was just so idiotic to a person with any concept of morality or simple story foreshadowing that there could be no turning back from what seemed an entirely inevitable ending). I loved ME2, enough to play it through a few times now just to explore different plot paths, etc. which I couldn't do with DA:O. Sure, it was a darker (occasionally uneaven) ride, even marching the path of the Paragon, but I certainly don't think they went too far, at least for me. In fact, without it, I don't think it could have functioned as well as it did.

Anyway, that's my own opinion. Thanks for bearing with me. You can wake up at the back now 

Whilst I don't agree with your opinions I appreciate the time you took to explain your point in a civilised mannner. thanks.

surprise surprise, op doesn't agree with someone who doesn't share the same opionion.  Can this thread be closed off now?  Thanks bioware!

[Rilke21]

ye gahds.

I’m fairly new to the internet forum crowd, but the blatant ignorance and stupidity that keeps cropping up on this thread is enough to turn me off of forums entirely.

Of the 400+ replies, the only intelligent criticism of the OP’s argument came from Camo, who was able to coherently and politely point out some differences of opinion. The vast majority of responses have been ridiculous little comments like “go back to bible school” or “femanists are stupid” or “sucks to be you this game r0cks!” (I apologize for generalizing, but when I tried to wade through this thread for some counter examples, I got too depressed.)

Maybe my standards are too high, but I expect better…maybe not from 14 year olds, but from people in general. Here’s something that a wise dead German guy wrote, and I hope everyone here will take it to heart:

“You know that I do not approach reasonable objections with the intention merely of refuting them, but that in thinking them over I always weave them into my judgments, and afford them the opportunity of overturning all my most cherished beliefs. I entertain the hope that by thus viewing my judgments impartially from the standpoint of others some third view that will improve upon my previous insights may be obtainable.”

To have a reasonable objection, you have to understand what you’re objecting to. The first step is to actually read and understand not merely a person’s words, but his or her INTENTION. Once you’ve accomplished that, and once you’ve formulated something interesting to say, then there is a real chance of making progress… the only way to reach that “third view” is if people realize that judgment doesn’t happen outside of a community, and that good judgment only happens where there’s intelligent debate.

If this thread proves anything, it’s that most people aren't capable of intelligent debate. On the plus side, it shows that maybe 5 in 400 are.

I guess that’s a start.

Modifié par Rilke21, 16 février 2010 - 11:41 .

[Astranagant]

I just postulated this in another thread on what I'm expecting from ME3, based on what they did with ME2, but I think it's worth repeating in a relevant thread because I generally agree that ME2's plot is severely lacking:

"considering the bar set by ME2, you'll probably be forced to join the Blood Pack mercenaries who are the most powerful and feared shadow group in the galaxy as they fight against the nefarious Cosplayers who take on human form in order to further the Reapers' goals by not doing anything particularly helpful and then the Reapers will turn out to be made from magical spirit goo OH WAIT THAT WAS MASS EFFECT 2."

Modifié par Astranagant, 16 février 2010 - 11:39 .

[Revan312]

Astranagant wrote...

I just postulated this in another thread on what I'm expecting from ME3, based on what they did with ME2, but I think it's worth repeating in a relevant thread because I generally agree that ME2's plot is severely lacking:

"considering the bar set by ME2, you'll probably be forced to join the Blood Pack mercenaries who are the most powerful and feared shadow group in the galaxy as they fight against the nefarious Cosplayers who take on human form in order to further the Reapers' goals by not doing anything particularly helpful and then the Reapers will turn out to be made from magical spirit goo OH WAIT THAT WAS MASS EFFECT 2."

[Skavau]

To have a reasonable objection, you have to understand what you’re objecting to. The first step is to actually read and understand not merely a person’s words, but his or her INTENTION. Once you’ve accomplished that, and once you’ve formulated something interesting to say, then there is a real chance of making progress… the only way to reach that “third view” is if people realize that judgment doesn’t happen outside of a community, and that good judgment only happens where there’s intelligent debate.

Why do you guys just keep using emotional elitism as basically, your only objection here? Only your arguments are apparently refined enough to be understood. Only your emotional outrage over the content is something to be recognised. It is almost like a "It is a concerned mother thing - you won't understand!"

Every single post in support of, defending or from the original poster is laced with it. I have asked Ozymandias to clarify her position in my posts on certain issues and was extremely mindful of her main issue here: being offended. You can put as much rhetoric as you like. You can say that Bioware ought be mindful of sensitive issues that only you apparently observe. You can claim that the universe persists in promoting an environment of oppressed females (despite the fact that if this really is true, it only succeeds in showing men up as bigoted pigs.) The reality though it is all down to you being offended and wishing to set up standards of content based on this.

And that, offends my interest in free media content.

Modifié par Skavau, 17 février 2010 - 06:05 .

[Schneidend]

Schneidend wrote...



People are just upset because they don't understand anything but plot-driven stories. They claim ME2 was "dumbed down" for the masses and yet can't comprehend characters being the driving force in a story. ME2 is in fact too complicated for them, ironically, because they've evidently never taken any literature courses.

[Revan312]

Schneidend wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

People are just upset because they don't understand anything but plot-driven stories. They claim ME2 was "dumbed down" for the masses and yet can't comprehend characters being the driving force in a story. ME2 is in fact too complicated for them, ironically, because they've evidently never taken any literature courses.

Really?  Explain the overwhelming amount of complexity in ME2, I know it will be hard beings it's soooo hard to grasp, but I'd really like you to try and explain it to me since I'm obviously too dumb to get it....

I mean, I understand that there's really only 3 devices used for squad "issues"... Revenge (Zaeed, Garrus, Jack, Samara) The equally cliche daddy problems (Miranda, Tali, Jacob, Thane) and finally soul searching (Grunt, Mordin, Legion) 

That does seem like a lot or originality and amazing character depth, it's just so driven and emotionally engaging having to deal with the same character problem in a different skin at least 4 times, mmm.  Also, they're all so important to the overall story, each one playing an integral role in how the universe is shaped and what decisons you make as Shepard. 

I mean, ya, so what if each of them can die in a totally tacked on manner with little to no real impact or that the story at the end is so contrived that ME2's picture should be next to the word in the dictionary, who cares, it's got Jack telling me she's the hardest core bit*h in the galaxy and to fuc* off for the 30th time and Miranda telling me she was made perfect over and over.  Also we still have Grunt telling us that he's tank born until my ears bleed and that Garrus wants revenge on that one guy who killed his squad that one time without giving a crap about what's going on concerning the bug people err I mean mutant prothean zombies.

I guess I just really don't get it, I'm just not edumacated enough...  I just wish Bioware would simplify it for me so's folk like me can makes it think right in ma head.  For a while, until you posted that, I just thought it was a trite, shallow bit of fluff regarding the most selfish of characters. "Ya ya, I know, save the galaxy and all that, but I really need you to do my mission, cause well, I won't like you as much if we don't and that might mean I won't work as hard during our SUICIDE mission.."  I'm really glad you set me straight on my level of intelligence Schneidend, I was worred I just thought it was shallow but now I can finally see all these character's true worth

Modifié par Revan312, 17 février 2010 - 07:17 .

[matt-bassist]

@OP: I am truly sorry you feel that way. As a fan who has enjoyed every Bioware game since Baldur's Gate, and a staunch Mass Effect fanatic, I can safely say, from my viewpoint and experience, ME2 was an excellent game, and a terrific 2nd chapter in the Mass Effect Trilogy. You have really missed out on a fantastic, engaging, deep, thought-provoking, and cinematic gaming experience. Maybe when ME3 is released and it combines the best of both ME1 (Story, Plot) and ME2 (Characters, Locations) you'll look back on ME2 with a new perspective, and maybe see past your grievances. Until such time, go play Dragon Age: Origins if you haven't. That game is just pure awesomeness!

[Ozymandias23]

double post

Modifié par Ozymandias23, 17 février 2010 - 09:43 .

[Ozymandias23]

Ozymandias23 wrote...

Skavau wrote...

I have only addressed a few posts in this thread for the simple reason
that I don't frequent this forum regularly because of other commitments
and because it has become a fairly unpleasant place to be. Have you
noticed the racial hate threads that have popped up recently?

No, I haven't.

Perhaps, it is just you. I have seen no racial hate threads.

Skavau, over the past week or so there have been four threads that I personally have seen where people posted pictures of Mass Effect characters that they manipulated to include characteristics that racists attribute to Jews.  To ensure there was no misunderstanding they even supplied racist comments.  There was a thread containing so called Jewish ‘jokes’ but I prefer to use the more accurate term ‘racial hatred’.  There was also a thread which has now been deleted where a member of this forum denied that the holocaust had taken place. The contributors to that thread were divided into those who agreed with him and those who were outraged.

Did you genuinely not see those threads?

Modifié par Ozymandias23, 17 février 2010 - 09:44 .

[HeavyTankZA]

if you didn't enjoy the game or story fair enough, your oppinion, but please don't try to force your viewpoint on the rest of us. just my oppinion

[Ozymandias23]

Rilke21 wrote...

ye gahds.

I’m fairly new to the internet forum crowd, but the blatant ignorance and stupidity that keeps cropping up on this thread is enough to turn me off of forums entirely.

Of the 400+ replies, the only intelligent criticism of the OP’s argument came from Camo, who was able to coherently and politely point out some differences of opinion. The vast majority of responses have been ridiculous little comments like “go back to bible school” or “femanists are stupid” or “sucks to be you this game r0cks!” (I apologize for generalizing, but when I tried to wade through this thread for some counter examples, I got too depressed.)

Maybe my standards are too high, but I expect better…maybe not from 14 year olds, but from people in general. Here’s something that a wise dead German guy wrote, and I hope everyone here will take it to heart:

“You know that I do not approach reasonable objections with the intention merely of refuting them, but that in thinking them over I always weave them into my judgments, and afford them the opportunity of overturning all my most cherished beliefs. I entertain the hope that by thus viewing my judgments impartially from the standpoint of others some third view that will improve upon my previous insights may be obtainable.”

To have a reasonable objection, you have to understand what you’re objecting to. The first step is to actually read and understand not merely a person’s words, but his or her INTENTION. Once you’ve accomplished that, and once you’ve formulated something interesting to say, then there is a real chance of making progress… the only way to reach that “third view” is if people realize that judgment doesn’t happen outside of a community, and that good judgment only happens where there’s intelligent debate.

If this thread proves anything, it’s that most people aren't capable of intelligent debate. On the plus side, it shows that maybe 5 in 400 are.

I guess that’s a start.

Worth posting again imo