465 réponses à ce sujet

[Skavau]

Ozymandias23 wrote...

Skavau, over the past week or so there have been four threads that I personally have seen where people posted pictures of Mass Effect characters that they manipulated to include characteristics that racists attribute to Jews.

You may be referring to some posts in the joke threads which include internet memes and dialogue mockery. I have scanned through those threads and don't recall any anti-semitic references, but it would not surprise me nonetheless.

If you are talking about specific threads then no, I haven't seen any. Why would I? This is a busy forum where threads constantly change all of the time. Even if there were racist threads on here, then I suspect they would be locked or deleted. This place already censors swearing.

But based on your track record, I do have to ask - were these actual anti-semitic remarks or were you just 'reading between the lines' as you seem to do?

To ensure there was no misunderstanding they even supplied racist comments.  There was a thread containing so called Jewish ‘jokes’ but I prefer to use the more accurate term ‘racial hatred’.  There was also a thread which has now been deleted where a member of this forum denied that the holocaust had taken place. The contributors to that thread were divided into those who agreed with him and those who were outraged.

Did you genuinely not see those threads?

No I didn't.

But I'm amused to see that you regard a single thread in a busy forum, probably set up for the luls and interacted in for the luls as something to do with anything here.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Revan312 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

People are just upset because they don't understand anything but plot-driven stories. They claim ME2 was "dumbed down" for the masses and yet can't comprehend characters being the driving force in a story. ME2 is in fact too complicated for them, ironically, because they've evidently never taken any literature courses.

Really?  Explain the overwhelming amount of complexity in ME2, I know it will be hard beings it's soooo hard to grasp, but I'd really like you to try and explain it to me since I'm obviously too dumb to get it....

I mean, I understand that there's really only 3 devices used for squad "issues"... Revenge (Zaeed, Garrus, Jack, Samara) The equally cliche daddy problems (Miranda, Tali, Jacob, Thane) and finally soul searching (Grunt, Mordin, Legion) 

That does seem like a lot or originality and amazing character depth, it's just so driven and emotionally engaging having to deal with the same character problem in a different skin at least 4 times, mmm.  Also, they're all so important to the overall story, each one playing an integral role in how the universe is shaped and what decisons you make as Shepard. 

I mean, ya, so what if each of them can die in a totally tacked on manner with little to no real impact or that the story at the end is so contrived that ME2's picture should be next to the word in the dictionary, who cares, it's got Jack telling me she's the hardest core bit*h in the galaxy and to fuc* off for the 30th time and Miranda telling me she was made perfect over and over.  Also we still have Grunt telling us that he's tank born until my ears bleed and that Garrus wants revenge on that one guy who killed his squad that one time without giving a crap about what's going on concerning the bug people err I mean mutant prothean zombies.

I guess I just really don't get it, I'm just not edumacated enough...  I just wish Bioware would simplify it for me so's folk like me can makes it think right in ma head.  For a while, until you posted that, I just thought it was a trite, shallow bit of fluff regarding the most selfish of characters. "Ya ya, I know, save the galaxy and all that, but I really need you to do my mission, cause well, I won't like you as much if we don't and that might mean I won't work as hard during our SUICIDE mission.."  I'm really glad you set me straight on my level of intelligence Schneidend, I was worred I just thought it was shallow but now I can finally see all these character's true worth

When you get right down to it, Moby Dick is just about a dude who is pissed at a whale. We're all able to oversimplify a story to its base ideals and call it cliche, but it's what happens in that story that is important, and that requires you look at it part by part, not just look on it from above and decide its worth. And, as I recall, every single ME1 squaddie had daddy issues except Kaiden, so it's not like ME1 had fabulously complex personalities either.

The loyalty missions were not only about personal progression of the characters (which they did wonderfully). They also served as a microcosm for issues in the Mass Effect universe as a whole. They were important not just to better define the characters and set them on little mini-plots within the greater plot, but for Bioware to explore the IP that they've devoted so much effort in to creating.

Also, I'm glad the OP was disgusted. That means Bioware did an amazing job provoking an emotional response.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 17 février 2010 - 10:14 .

[Aisynia]

I'm an author.

I was molested as a child by my half brother.

I'm a rape victim.

I'm bi.

TMI? Tough.

I didn't find this game even remotely offensive.

This is a classic example of a person attributing the beliefs or actions of a character or characters to those of the author. People can argue the quality of the writing all day long, but when it comes to content, I find people miss the point a lot of the time.

I recently caught a ton of flak. For a story I won an award for no less. the protagonist was young, female, and vulnerable. She was abused by anything that came out of the woodwork throughout the story (she was woobified and in hindsight, I overdid it, but that's another topic). Her mother and sister were murdered, she was implanted with a device that slowly sapped all her energy, and the antagonist (the guy who murdered her family) generally came off as a psychopathic misogynist (he wasn't, but that's how it came off.. he wasn't all there, so who knows anyways). In the end, the protagonist sacrifices herself to undo it all (my one and only time travel story) by erasing herself from existence (its complicated).

Most of the feedback I have received has been overwhelmingly positive, but at the time, there was a small number of extremely angry, stupid people (especially self proclaimed amateur critics) who attributed Dr. Albright's actions to ME, who thought that *I* was a misogynist. That's way up there on the ridiculous conclusions board.

No.. I just wrote a really horrible person as a character. He turned out to be a very effective villain in most peoples' eyes, and made you absolutely hate him. His actions were not glorified, but condemned. Most people saw the protagonist as weak, meek and useless, when in actually, she is the one who is strong enough to organize the actions that lead to all this being undone despite her condition, both physical and emotional, and then has the strength to give up her very existence because she loved her family. Pretty strong IMO.

OP.. you are attributing the actions of characters to the beliefs of the writers, and it's one of the most horrible things you can do in this kind of situation, honestly. Jacob's loyalty mission wasn't about how freakin' cool it was to rape women and be the king of the island paradise, it was about how power corrupted him, and how abhorrent and inexcusable his actions were. Not one person thought it was okay, not Shepard (even with renegade options), not a squadmate. I can promise you the writers didn't think it was okay either.

As for race, well, you're just drawing parallels where none should exist. I can't comment more than that. When you create a new world with your imagination, you invariably takes bits and pieces from both the real world and other fiction you have known. I can pretty much guarantee that until you get to sit down with the lead writer for an hour or so and just talk to him, you don't really know WHAT he was drawing on when he made the Volus or the Hanar or anyone else.

Most of the time, when I see authors intentionally try to draw inspiration for a race, ethnicity or culture from a real life equivalent, it doesn't work out well. Why? Creative people. They like to put their own spin on things, and whether its the Volus, the Reapers, good guys or bad guys, the author loves them all and treats them with tender loving care. Just as an example, Viamontians from Asheron's Call. Explicitly stated to be based closely on Italian and French culture. Nothing remotely like either except for some naming conventions (and they're BLUE) lol.

Likewise, the lead writer on Mass Effect is Drew Karpyshyn. I have read both of the Mass Effect novels released so far. Both books strongly feature Kahlee Sanders, a strong female lead, and include Hendel Mitra, the coolest damned gay guy in the universe (BARRIER! ;O Sorry other gay guys, he's cooler).

Which leads me to the sexuality of the asari. The majority of alien models in the game are male, so it isn't a surprise that the majority of the asari you see with alien bondmates are with males. As mentioned in this thread, there is at least one plot important f/f pairing, and I see in a couple areas in both games a human female standing with an asari in a way that screams "We're dating!". I really feel like you're digging here, just to look for something to be offended about. You need to lighten up on that front.

Also, not ALL asari are strippers and dancers and stuff. So you go into afterlife and there are some asari shaking their asses.. In a sleazy club on a lawless world... This is a surprise? You don't see that on Illium. This isn't JUST for the male population of Omega ya know, I'm sure other asari find it pretty damned hot (even with the stigma against purebloods, which is itself a commentary on self hatred) -- but guess who is upstairs? Aria. An incredibly strong, competent, intelligent woman (asari) who has managed to keep the lawless, practically anarchical Omega under her thumb for CENTURIES. Oh, she manages to be pretty damned feminine too. Are the writers stupid and offensive for this? Don't **** with Aria

You can argue the quality of the actual storytelling until you are blue in the face.. as in, with how much clarity and precision was the story executed. How powerful or clear was the sense of rising action? Were we engaged with a clearly defined goal, and did we feel connected to it? You can argue all that and more, but I take issue with anyone attributing the actions of characters or story elements and attributing these as the opinion or political standing of the author or authors in question without really KNOWING.

Your post is a massive, knee-jerk assumption based your own (valid) personal beliefs.

Arguably, I always consider my story a success when I make my readers FEEL. That's what I write for, emotion, but I'm gonna go ahead and defend them this time and say you've pretty much looked RIGHT PAST what they were TRYING to show you, and directly to what you WANTED TO SEE.

Anywho, I'm outta this thread. I have more interesting and constructive things to do.

Modifié par Aisynia, 17 février 2010 - 10:34 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Aisynia wrote...

I'm an author.

I was molested as a child by my half brother.

I'm a rape victim.

I'm bi.

TMI? Tough.

I didn't find this game even remotely offensive.

This is a classic example of a person attributing the beliefs or actions of a character or characters to those of the author. People can argue the quality of the writing all day long, but when it comes to content, I find people miss the point a lot of the time.

I recently caught a ton of flak. For a story I won an award for no less. the protagonist was young, female, and vulnerable. She was abused by anything that came out of the woodwork throughout the story (she was woobified and in hindsight, I overdid it, but that's another topic). Her mother and sister were murdered, she was implanted with a device that slowly sapped all her energy, and the antagonist (the guy who murdered her family) generally came off as a psychopathic misogynist (he wasn't, but that's how it came off.. he wasn't all there, so who knows anyways). In the end, the protagonist sacrifices herself to undo it all (my one and only time travel story) by erasing herself from existence (its complicated).

Most of the feedback I have received has been overwhelmingly positive, but at the time, there was a small number of extremely angry, stupid people (especially self proclaimed amateur critics) who attributed Dr. Albright's actions to ME, who thought that *I* was a misogynist. That's way up there on the ridiculous conclusions board.

No.. I just wrote a really horrible person as a character. He turned out to be a very effective villain in most peoples' eyes, and made you absolutely hate him. His actions were not glorified, but condemned. Most people saw the protagonist as weak, meek and useless, when in actually, she is the one who is strong enough to organize the actions that lead to all this being undone despite her condition, both physical and emotional, and then has the strength to give up her very existence because she loved her family. Pretty strong IMO.

OP.. you are attributing the actions of characters to the beliefs of the writers, and it's one of the most horrible things you can do in this kind of situation, honestly. Jacob's loyalty mission wasn't about how freakin' cool it was to rape women and be the king of the island paradise, it was about how power corrupted him, and how abhorrent and inexcusable his actions were. Not one person thought it was okay, not Shepard (even with renegade options), not a squadmate. I can promise you the writers didn't think it was okay either.

As for race, well, you're just drawing parallels where none should exist. I can't comment more than that. When you create a new world with your imagination, you invariably takes bits and pieces from both the real world and other fiction you have known. I can pretty much guarantee that until you get to sit down with the lead writer for an hour or so and just talk to him, you don't really know WHAT he was drawing on when he made the Volus or the Hanar or anyone else.

Most of the time, when I see authors intentionally try to draw inspiration for a race, ethnicity or culture from a real life equivalent, it doesn't work out well. Why? Creative people. They like to put their own spin on things, and whether its the Volus, the Reapers, good guys or bad guys, the author loves them all and treats them with tender loving care. Just as an example, Viamontians from Asheron's Call. Explicitly stated to be based closely on Italian and French culture. Nothing remotely like either except for some naming conventions (and they're BLUE) lol.

Likewise, the lead writer on Mass Effect is Drew Karpyshyn. I have read both of the Mass Effect novels released so far. Both books strongly feature Kahlee Sanders, a strong female lead, and include Hendel Mitra, the coolest damned gay guy in the universe (BARRIER! ;O Sorry other gay guys, he's cooler).

Which leads me to the sexuality of the asari. The majority of alien models in the game are male, so it isn't a surprise that the majority of the asari you see with alien bondmates are with males. As mentioned in this thread, there is at least one plot important f/f pairing, and I see in a couple areas in both games a human female standing with an asari in a way that screams "We're dating!". I really feel like you're digging here, just to look for something to be offended about. You need to lighten up on that front.

Also,m not ALL asari are strippers and dancers and stuff. So you go into afterlife and there are some asari shaking their asses.. This is a surprise? This isn't JUST for the male population of Omega ya know, I'm sure other asari find it pretty damned hot (even with the stigma against purebloods, which is itself a commentary on self hatred) -- but guess who is upstairs? Aria. An incredibly strong, competent, intelligent woman (asari) who has managed to keep the lawless, practically anarchical Omega under her thumb for CENTURIES. Oh, she manages to be pretty damned feminine too. Are the writers stupid and offensive for this? Don't **** with Aria

You can argue the quality of the actual storytelling until you are blue in the face.. as in, with how much clarity and precision was the story executed. How powerful or clear was the sense of rising action? Were we engaged with a clearly defined goal, and did we feel connected to it? You can argue all that and more, but I take issue with anyone attributing the actions of characters or story elements and attributing these as the opinion or political standing of the author or authors in question without really KNOWING.

Your post is a massive, knee-jerk assumption based your own (valid) personal beliefs.

Arguably, I always consider my story a success when I make my readers FEEL. That's what I write for, emotion, but I'm gonna go ahead and defend them this time and say you've pretty much looked RIGHT PAST what they were TRYING to show you, and directly to what you WANTED TO SEE.

Anywho, I'm outta this thread. I have more interesting and constructive things to do.

Thanks for posting your thoughts. That was quite a read

[shaneho78]

@Aisynia


 Great post.

Modifié par shaneho78, 17 février 2010 - 11:01 .

[ReplicantZero]

 

Aisynia wrote...

In the end, the protagonist sacrifices herself to undo it all (my one and only time travel story) by erasing herself from existence (its complicated).

Hmm - ever seen 'Donnie Darko'? (Not suggesting anything like plagiarism of course, but made me think of that film).

Interesting post though. Odd that some people seem to confuse the fact that fiction often draws on elements of reality with the idea that the fiction actually seeks to represent reality in some way.

[tropicalwave]

First I'd like to say that on my Fem Shep if I told Jacob to keep it professional from the very start I never ahd to deal with the flirt or the romance. She stayed loyal to her ME1 love.



Second I'd like to say that the main plot was a little lacking, maybe because there were only like 5 quests that were directly related to the plot. Most of the story here was going after your team members, though I'd like to have had more missions on the main story arch I did enjoy the loyalty quests a lot.



I'm sorry that there are those that ended up not liking this game but for me there were moments where I was moved. Where I ended up caring about the characters more than I thought I would. This to me is pretty impressive on many levels, one that this game has so many things it has to deal with, whether you did something or didn't do something up to that point in two games. This game is limited by what they can code in a certain time frame. They cannot create EDI to be a GM and adjust to our every whim (oh wouldn't that be great to have an AI or even a VI GM?) Most of my complaints come down to this level, they couldn't' do it on a level that I wanted. It just isnt' possible but I was moved and that has made me play again.

[Skohsl]

A nice discussion going on, but I have to disagree on some points.

The story, the collector and reapers, was destined to fail from the start. I see no reason why the reapers would need to collect organics, there is no logic in it. And neither could bioware find any logic in it, hence the strange (to me at least) and weak finale. That being said, I felt the same way about the first instalment, so no news there.



The characters were an enormous improvement over the original cast, everyone has an interesting story to tell and a strong personality to boot. I especially liked Cerberus and the illusive man, all interesting characters (and mysteriously little information). However it did seem odd at first that Shepard joins Cerberus, seeing as I killed every Cerberus operative in part 1. At first you do not yet have the full view of things in the galaxy. The counsel abandoning you, leaving the galaxy defenceless to the coming reaper threat. Perhaps a mandatory trip to the counsel was needed to make sure you had no other option than working for Cerberus before talking to the illusive man (but that is just my opinion).



All in all, I think that the story is much better than in the first part. Not the perfect story, it does lack a lot of detail, but better none the less...

[Madecologist]

Actually, to the OP (the actual OP). Jacob's mission was suppose to be disturbing and apprehensive. That was the point, you were suppose to go "wow.. Jacob your dad is an ass" and Jacob agreeing with you. Actually correction, he was the most vile person you can think off. Just listen to Jacob grilling his dad.

Now question would be, should something this dark be in the game. Again, it was handled as it is wrong. No point did the game try to make you think this was maybe cool. it was suppose to be dispicable. So the question, should it have been. I will not answer this because it is up to each individual to do so. But it is a common trend in games today. The whole "Dark" thing.

"Dark Fantasy" "Dark Sci-Fi". My problems with the whole Darking things up is that it looses shock value and slowly feel like mere perversion when you do it too much. Something Bioware will need to be careful about in their future games.

[CC-Tron]

NoShtSherlock wrote...

Miranda was Shepherd second in command.  She was a Cerberus agent working with the
illusive man who assigned her to Shepherd for the so called ‘suicide
mission’.  She had the emotional depth of
an espresso cup.  Her claim to fame of
goodness was that she stole her sister as a baby from their evil father who had
genetically created and engineered them both and gave her baby sister to a
family to raise.  Miranda walked around
in sleazy slinky tight cat suit that was meant to tantalize adolescent boys or
a certain type of men.  Her character and
personality that of a woman with loose moral’s who slept around and have no
problem with having sex in a public area of the ship.  As a character Miranda was not a likeable
personality and came across as a person you might find on a street corner in a
red light district.

It seems like you're only concerned about the way women portrayed in the game. As if the negative portrayals are only directed at women.  I don't share your concern.  There are many women with loose morals in the world. Get over it. The women actually get off easy in this game compared to the men.

[Skohsl]

CC-Tron wrote...
It seems like you're only concerned about the way women portrayed in the game. As if the negative portrayals are only directed at women.  I don't share your concern.  There are many women with loose morals in the world. Get over it. The women actually get off easy in this game compared to the men.

Plus it was made pretty clear in the game why Miranda walked around like she did. To gain an advantage over her opponents. It did not go unnoticed in the game, as you can clearly hear by the comments of your crew and the Asari during her loyalty mission. So it is not women who are portrayed as such, only a woman who only does it to gain an advantage over her (distracted) adversaries.

And you are right about no one having any real moral value (at least out in the streets) all the people Shepard picks up all seem to be just and good, they just need to be talked to a few times before you find out.

[Wynne]

Aisynia, that was brilliantly said. Kudos.

[Harcken]

Regarding the main narrative, I agree with you completely, as you begin to ramble about loyalty missions, I disagree completely. It sounds to me, like the OP wanted a game where everything is happy, nothing negative is ever suggested, etc... The gruesome loyalty missions are what immersed me into the world of Mass Effect way more than even the first did, we got a first hand look at Cerberus' horrific experiments, at the corruption of certain Alliance officials, at the insanity of some Corporate bosses. This is a galaxy, and I think ME2 did a great job of immersing us completely underneath the surface, everything felt believable, the problems faced were just as difficult as real world problems faced in the Middle East.

[jck_hentschell]

To the OP, to start, I didn't have any problem with the story.

We know much going into this game unlike the first one. The universe has been pretty well established. They can't make a revolutionary universe this time around, they can only evolve it. Same with the story. They did that with both.

The universe has evolved with a darker look a few new species and you learn a bit more about the older species. The story is a bit less surprising but it still has some shocking twists that push it forward and set up #3 very well. The Collectors creeped me out and the Reapers creep me out even more as they've been more developed. The point of this story was to set-up 3. It will be judged by how #3 ends.

The story though was primarily character-driven. And I have to disagree with your opinions on these characters. The cast of 10 party members in ME2, is one of the greatest casts of characters I've ever seen in video games. They are deep, complex, compelling, with great backstories, strong motivations, and strong moral dilemmas.

From Samara to Grunt, Tali to Garrus, Legion to Jack, Miranda to Jacob, and Mordin to Thane, these characters are incredibly well written and developed. You may not like them all or maybe you will. But the personalities are so diverse that either of those are possible. This comes from the nearly flawless voice acting and dialogue.

As for your problem with the darker elements, you felt exactly what Bioware wanted. Jacob's mission was meant to be emotionally sickening. As Jacob said, "the man who did this doesn't know right from wrong." And as for Jack's mission, it really gave me a lot of understanding and sympathy for her character.

These things aren't trivialized, they are addressed in a way that it gives you the choice as to how to feel. For example with Jack you may feel that the horrors of her childhood make her an incredibly character, as I did. Or you may feel that it still gives no excuse and that she's still a hateful person.

Bioware through Mass Effect 2, takes a look at very mature and dark issues and doesn't tell you how to feel. This gives me respect for them, as it shows they respect me as a player. It made this incredible and deep galaxy feel more alive and more personal than I ever imagined.

Again that's your opinion and this is mine.

[Camo5050]

Rilke21 wrote...

ye gahds.

I’m fairly new to the internet forum crowd, but the blatant ignorance and stupidity that keeps cropping up on this thread is enough to turn me off of forums entirely.

Of the 400+ replies, the only intelligent criticism of the OP’s argument came from Camo, who was able to coherently and politely point out some differences of opinion. The vast majority of responses have been ridiculous little comments like “go back to bible school” or “femanists are stupid” or “sucks to be you this game r0cks!” (I apologize for generalizing, but when I tried to wade through this thread for some counter examples, I got too depressed.)

Maybe my standards are too high, but I expect better…maybe not from 14 year olds, but from people in general. Here’s something that a wise dead German guy wrote, and I hope everyone here will take it to heart:

“You know that I do not approach reasonable objections with the intention merely of refuting them, but that in thinking them over I always weave them into my judgments, and afford them the opportunity of overturning all my most cherished beliefs. I entertain the hope that by thus viewing my judgments impartially from the standpoint of others some third view that will improve upon my previous insights may be obtainable.”

To have a reasonable objection, you have to understand what you’re objecting to. The first step is to actually read and understand not merely a person’s words, but his or her INTENTION. Once you’ve accomplished that, and once you’ve formulated something interesting to say, then there is a real chance of making progress… the only way to reach that “third view” is if people realize that judgment doesn’t happen outside of a community, and that good judgment only happens where there’s intelligent debate.

If this thread proves anything, it’s that most people aren't capable of intelligent debate. On the plus side, it shows that maybe 5 in 400 are.

I guess that’s a start.

I'm surprised to see Kant interjected into a this thread.  Or more specifically, to see Kant interjected into a thread full of emotional reflex posts on a gaming forum.  Well done.

Thanks for the compliment as well, Rilke.  In my previous posts it was never my intention to be merely contrary, but rather to shine a small light of objective review into the maelstrom of howling emotions.  But, I do humbly submit that there have been a number of intelligently presented posts both in support and in opposition to the views expressed by the OP.  However, the irony of this thread does make me giggle a bit.

The entire first post was presented and built from the OP's personal emotionally charged experiences with the game.  And thus it follows that most of the contrary responses will also be emotionally charged.  The presentation of an objective and reasonable view during the typical emotional dust-up of a thread like this is the oddity, certainly not the norm.  The white-knighting, "no u!" and self-aggrandizing opinion parades however, are.

The only advice I can offer is to not give up on internet forums because of the way people express themselves.  Because even the most incomprehensible and emotionally charged retort is saying something.  As to the value of that something; well, that's something altogether different.

As you said, try to read into their intention.  It will make the whole experience much more tolerable.

Oh, and if I'm ever up in Edmonton, you're buying me a drink.

Modifié par Camo5050, 17 février 2010 - 08:05 .

[Rilke21]

Camo5050 wrote...

Oh, and if I'm ever up in Edmonton, you're buying me a drink.

Done.