465 réponses à ce sujet

[Vicious]

Curry Noodles wrote...

Wait a minute, now that I think about it, i remember someone making a thread like this when Dragon Age came out. They kept talking about how they felt like Duncan raped them and it read very similarly to the OP's post, and I'm pretty sure the person who posted it was also named Ozymandias.

...Maybe JGHutch is on to something, heh!

Because same person. Same IP. Same troll. epic.

[ajlueke]

SwobyJ wrote...

I thought it was the Alliance that sent Alenko/Williams, as the Council still has its heads in the sand.

Humanity is now part of the council.  Interesting that when one colony is attacked they send a Spectre.  While with multiple human colonies attacked and a human led council "if you let the old council die" they don't do anything.  The idea of the Spectres was pretty much abandoned in the second game.

[ajlueke]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Sereaph502 wrote...

Still to this day I can not understand why someone would love ME1 but hate ME2.

The story is the same, if not stronger.

The action is better.

Heck, everyone about it is better. The only thing debatable is the story, and even at worst they are on the same level.

I think most people who feel this way are not looking at the quality of the storytelling. They simply had their own ideas about what the story should be like, and since those expectations aren't met, they whine and complain about it now.

The quality of the storytelling indeed.  They are vastly different types of stories to be sure.  In the original game, the story is focused on Saren and the Conduit.  Why is he after it?  What does it do?  Why does he need the beacons?  Why is he funding thorian research? etc. etc.  It his those questions and Saren's ultimately compelling motivations that drive the story forward.

In ME2 you have the Collector's who are completely one dimensional.  They are snatching humans to build a human reaper (Why are all other reapers squid?), because the reapers told them to do it.  You have to build a team to stop them.  That is it, that is all there is to the main story arc.  What is added however, is compelling backgrounds and motivations to for each member of your team.  Mordin's agonizing over the genophage, Samara hunting her own daughter.  They seem like real people living in a real universe which is interesting precisely because it isn't all hugs and rainbows.  Attempting to duplicate the first game and make a better Saren would have been a mistake (Darth Maul anyone?)  So they focused more on character development in this iteration, and backed that up with improved gameplay in every area.  While I prefer the story in ME1 over ME2 because I love me a good villian, in no way do I feel that makes ME1 the better game.   
My real problem comes from some continuity issues between the two in my view.  

Modifié par ajlueke, 02 février 2010 - 07:55 .

[AngelAtTheTomb]

GHOST OF FRUITY wrote...

The same goes with the characters - all were so different and varied in their motivations and personality. It's the sign of a well written character if they divide opinion. Jack I hate with a passion - really hate in fact! But to get that kind of response means that there is something to her as a character.

To take it in a different direction, I wish people would stop saying the whole "a character is well written if people hate them" thing (which is something a BioWare employee, can't remember which, said in response to the initial negative response of people to the reveal of Subject Zero...can't help but wonder that a lot of people have that in the back of their head and are using it as justification).

It's perfectly okay to HATE a character, as in they do things that are so despicable that you react to them on a moral level as a human being. I don't think anyone hates Subject Zero in that way. People (myself included) are ANNOYED by her, which is NOT a sign of good writing...it's a sign of BAD writing. I have no problem with the idea of the character and her backstory...it is, in fact, rather compelling.  The implementation is what I have a problem with. It feels forced, that all of her "****s" and "I don't give a **** what you think" seem like they're crafted to get a rise out of the people coming for this "dark and edgy" sequel, not because they're genuinely interesting. Subject Zero is at her best just after you do her loyalty mission...she seems there like a broken, scared little girl, and reveals real human vulnerabilities. But everywhere else, she really just seems like her only reason for existing is to edge things up, she's a prop that exists to toss around F-bombs.

The most egregious line in the whole game is when you're landing on the roof for her loyalty mission and she says, "The plants grow so fast they had to put the comm towers on the roof...****s."  What?  They're ****s because they put comm towers on the roof? I couldn't help but laughing.

To get the level of response of being incredibly annoyed with a character DOES NOT mean there is anything to that character.  It means that character stands out from the aesthetic experience surrounding her to such a degree that it breaks suspension of disbelief and makes you feel like you're playing something designed to pander to twelve-year olds who will be impressed by her skimpy outfit.

There is genuinely great writing in Mass Effect 2 - Mordin Solus, the Illusive Man, Thane - but it's balanced against some absolutely ATROCIOUS writing.

[LucidStrike]

While I agree with a lot of what you say, Ozymandias, a lot of it seems to stem from your view of the game as mere entertainment. I'm pretty sure BioWare means for the game to be more than that. It frequently brings up philosophical questions and is full of socio-plitical commentary. Far be it for me to undermine your position on Jacob's and Jack's mission, but you seem to think that BioWare included those things to condone them. On the contrary, those things were included to incite the player's indignant rage toward the perpetrators, not say how cool patriarchy and forced experimentation are, as far as I can tell. The "Am I a freak?" doesn't seem like BioWare promoting heteronormativity. A queer in a heterosexist world may be socialized to see queerness as something wrong or abnormal. Seems like BioWare's just bringin' attention to that, not calling queers freaks.

Also, I quite liked the characters. I really don't understand why people are saying they're not as well done, when I feel like I know way more about the ME2 characters than I ever learned about the ME1 characters.

AngelAtTheTomb wrote...

People (myself included) are ANNOYED by her, which is NOT a sign of good writing...it's a sign of BAD writing.

Does it, or does it simply mean that no writting can please everyone? I loved everything about Jack.

Modifié par LucidStrike, 02 février 2010 - 08:40 .

[ielserv]

when I was a little boy my least favorite star wars movie was "The Empire Strikes Back" now I find it to be the best of the series.

I believe the plot could have been better but this game was addictive, funny and interesting in its portrayal of a galactic confederation of interests, the game was rated M so any non Politically Correct portrayals should not be suprising.

I believe bioware to be one the least women objectifying of the game developers I know, but at the end it is a game developer and this game has a Sci-Fi setting and men, especially men who like videogames and science fiction tend to find women physically very attractive, and we like our catsuits and fanservice shots and unrealistically attractive women..or at least I do

Games are meant to sell, which this one is doing marvelously.
Games are meant to entertain, which in my case this one did seamlessly through 25 hours of almost non stop gameplay.
Bioware Games are meant to involve the player emotionally with digital surroundigs and this one surpassed even that.

I showed this game to non gamer friends and they found it amazing from a theatrical perspective so I think even with some minor core plot difficulties the game achieves a lasting place in the history of the industry.

Modifié par ielserv, 02 février 2010 - 09:45 .

[ielserv]

2 million copies in the first week

[Moonbox]

ielserv wrote...

when I was a little boy my least favorite star wars movie was "The Empire Strikes Back" now I find it to be the best of the series.

I believe the plot could have been better but this game was addictive, funny and interesting in its portrayal of a galactic confederation of interests, the game was rated M so any non Politically Correct portrayals should not be suprising.

I believe bioware to be one the least women objectifying of the game developers I know, but at the end it is a game developer and this game has a Sci-Fi setting and men, especially men who like videogames and science fiction tend to find women physically very attractive, and we like our catsuits and fanservice shots and unrealistically attractive women..or at least I do

Games are meant to sell, which this one is doing marvelously.
Games are meant to entertain, which in my case this one did seamlessly through 25 hours of almost non stop gameplay.
Bioware Games are meant to involve the player emotionally with digital surroundigs and this one surpassed even that.

I showed this game to non gamer friends and they found it amazing from a theatrical perspective so I think even with some minor core plot difficulties the game achieves a lasting place in the history of the industry.

I think comparing this game to ESB is laughable. ESB had a plot.  There were revelations.  There existing characters grew. 

If you removed ESB from the SW trilogy you'd have been left with a gaping hole in the story.  If you took ME2 out of the ME trilogy you'd miss pretty much NOTHING. 

This game didn't involve me emotionally.  It didn't provoke my imagination.  Its plot was more like  a Saturday morning cartoon (especially the ending) than a good story.  The OP explained it perfectly by comparing it to a shopping list.

"Okay guys.  We're going to party with the Collectors.  I need you to pick up A, B, C, D, E etc.... before we go. " 

It was a terrible story and a while it was a decent game, it was in no way memorable.

[I Ryukage I]

It's rated "M" people.



yes that doesn't mean it should have the insane amount of cursing/senseless blood and gore as many other games, but rather have mature, well written themes. If the story clutched to some people so much, whether you didn't like the way a character acted, you loved a character, you hated what a group of people did, or you agree completely and fight for it, the story is well written and definitely not one-dimensional.



Mass Effect 2 is a great game, but as any other person with common sense, it is not perfect. I agree that the main plot line story could have been carried out better, with a bit more answers instead of holes, for example maybe a mission where the colonist from Horizon you saved or Ash/Kaiden have something to say about the Collectors. Much of the story did in fact revolve around the main characters, it was fun for me getting to know them, however in the same token it made the game unbalanced a bit.



in Mass Effect 1 you had 5-6 main story areas and huge decisions to make. many of the missions this time around seem to have a resolution rather than having consequences for your actions or having items from the first game come back to haunt you.



Intro/Freedom's Progress you found out your main enemy in ME1 Eden Prime was similar, however you probably have more dialogue options in the first.



Horizon you fight the collectors, however towards the end you didn't truly have much of a choice when dealing with the ME1 love-interest. Fair Enough, Recruiting Liara in ME1 was kind of forced on you (unless I'm mistaken)



Collector Ship, you find out some major information, however it is here that I believe the choices/consequences become less and/or non-existent, thus making it seem less more epic when dealing with the main storyline.



Afterwards there's Legion and the final battle. I haven't completed most of the side-quest to see how many ME1 things carry over, but I've seen a few, along with the mail you get from your previous side-quest. I think that made my final~perfect run to complete everything in ME1 underwhelming, Conrad is glitched, but he's there, Thorian colonist/Shiala, Rachni Queen mini-talk, I can't think of anything else, but I really didn't feel the changes at all.



I would still rate the game no lower than a 9 out of 10. Graphics were impressive, only "glitchly" graphics I encountered was the time you speak to the council on the citadel. Music vastly improved, cutscenes were more than switching back and forth between the 2 characters speaking, it panned out, zoomed in, different angles etc. Fighting Gameplay was obviously upgraded, interrupt system system is great, upgrades/customizing armor/loyalty mission differences such as Samara's talk with morinth, Garrus assassination, Thane's spying, all were great and had different aspects to them (which I wish were used in other sidequest, however I still haven't done most of them if there are a lot.) The world felt more alive, than bare as it did in the first game. Story, while not as "epic" had its moments. I'm extremely fond of the craziness of the last mission in terms of storyline. My entire team survived, thats including the entire Normandy crew, but I held my breathe that entire mission. It was intense.



I wouldn't have minded if they had all the main story missions they have now, just would have probably liked having at least 5 more story missions... also I loved the customization, but would have liked at least 5 different armors that were buyable, including all the extra chestplates/arm plates etc. have no idea why they have such a minimal amount of that unless I am missing something there as well.

[LoneStarGazer]

I didn't play the original ME, and I'm only partway through my first play of ME 2, but I find the story and NPCs a little shallow compared to Dragon Age Origins -- so far. Maybe that's a function of combining an RPG and a shooter -- inevitably, some of the focus on story and character is lost.



I cannot at this stage for certain agree with Oz that the NPCs are shallow. So far, they seem a bit shallow compared to DAO, because the NPCs are always saying interesting things on their own as you go from one location to another. Maybe these characters will pick up more "realness" as I play them.



On the other hand, I have been disappointed that there are some adjunct characters, such as Aria, I would love to see develop in the plot by having a real relationship with Sheppardm, and then seeing where that could go. Characters like that . . . totally self-serving, are particularly interesting to see whether they can be changed.



As someone else said, "It's a dangerous galaxy.", and that's (sadly) a reflection of the real world. Unlike the "real world", we have a real opportunity to change this one, which gives me hope. Also, dark fiction can really help one cope with a dark world.

[Starscream723]

At the end of Mass Effect, the Reapers were coming, and Shepard sets off determined to stop them, somehow.



By the end of Mass Effect 2, the Reapers are still coming, and Shepard has set off determined to stop them, somehow.



So really, I suppose that the poster who said "If you took ME2 out of the ME trilogy you'd miss pretty much NOTHING." has a point. Not a lot seems to have changed from the status quo we were left with at the end of the first game.





But whatever, I liked it.

[Space Shot]

Starscream723 wrote...

At the end of Mass Effect, the Reapers were coming, and Shepard sets off determined to stop them, somehow.

By the end of Mass Effect 2, the Reapers are still coming, and Shepard has set off determined to stop them, somehow.

So really, I suppose that the poster who said "If you took ME2 out of the ME trilogy you'd miss pretty much NOTHING." has a point. Not a lot seems to have changed from the status quo we were left with at the end of the first game.

Well that's the power of over-generalizing.  By the same process, I can say that there wasn't any point for WWII because in the end we killed lots of Germans and destroyed their infrastructure, just as we did in WWI.  Of course I would be wrong in saying so, which is true for your statements about ME as well because any comparison requires the details which are so conveniently ignored when you generalize.

[Brahlis]

Political correctness?

Dude, GTFO with those complaints. I hate people that get "offended". Get the hell over it.

[deusofnull]

Ozymandias23 wrote...

I also found the portrayal of women in Mass Effect 2 offensive at times. On Omega the Asari seemed to have been assigned the role of strippers, pole dancers and prostitutes. There seemed to be a recurring theme that
suggested women were play things, to be used and abused when opportunity permitted. This theme carried through to Jacob’s loyalty mission, a mission that I found disturbing on an emotional level and absolutely sickening.

This feeling continued into Subject Zero’s loyalty mission where we’re provided with a story about the abuse of children. Children bought or stolen, ripped away from home and family, transported to a facility in crates, half starved and experimented upon, injected with substances to see what effect it would have. The parallels with history are hard to ignore. The children of Bullenhuser Damm, brought from Auschwitz to Neuengamme for experimentation.  Is this really suitable for inclusion in something that is supposed to be a source of entertainment?

Thats what your supposed to think of those missions...
Theyre supposed to be disturbing and dark.  Bioware said that ME2 was a darker game and I appreciate the turn in narritive they took.  Its maturing the serries.  

Brahlis wrote...

Political correctness?
Dude, GTFO with those complaints. I hate people that get "offended". Get the hell over it.

Totally agree

Modifié par deusofnull, 02 février 2010 - 04:52 .

[Dick Sterling]

Take into consideration, ME2 takes place outside of Citadel space. So its not gonna be politically correct, its not gonna be an uplifting experience. The Terminus systems have no political authority..its a free for all.

It doesnt feel like Mass Effect to you, because ME1 and ME2 take place in completely different worlds/living structures if that makes sense.


If you had read the novels you wouldnt be surprised by this.

Modifié par Dick Sterling, 02 février 2010 - 05:06 .

[AM50]

I disagree with the OP. Quit being so politcally correct. If you got to the planet and thought the harem of Jacob's dad was okay, then there is something wrong with you. With Jacks mission, that's why it's a run down base in pouring rain. It's foreshadowing the terrible things inside. The plot was weaker than the first but that's what happens in trilogies. The characters were miles better in this game. Miles better. The ones in the first game were flat and boring.

[phimseto]

Space Shot wrote...

Well that's the power of over-generalizing.  By the same process, I can say that there wasn't any point for WWII because in the end we killed lots of Germans and destroyed their infrastructure, just as we did in WWI.  Of course I would be wrong in saying so, which is true for your statements about ME as well because any comparison requires the details which are so conveniently ignored when you generalize.

Indeed.  The story of Mass Effect 2 was a necessary bridge between finding "some way to stop the Reapers" in ME1 and actually accomplishing that in ME2.  Things that transpired that helped bridge the gap:

- actions regarding the Geth, revealed during Legion missions.
- input into Quarian politics during a critical, near-catastrophic juncture, revealed during Tali missions.
- the disposition of the Krogan, revealed during the Mordin and Grunt missions.
- the role of humanity, revealed by choices made in the first game (Citadel Council) and how your relationship with Cerebrus turned out by the end of the game.
- the Rachni question, decided in ME1, with a hint of how it might be progressing in ME2. 
- the hidden world of the Shadow Broker, described in detail in ME1, now set on a collision course toward confrontation and resolution in ME2.  

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few, but the game - through smaller interactions, character arcs, and moments of "big decisions" did an admirable (and in points subtle) job of making the task of fighting the Reapers seem doable and within reason. 

 

[Dick Sterling]

I think it is stupid to put down the ME2 part of the story, when the Shepard/Reaper saga has not concluded yet. When that happens, then pick it apart all you like, but let it resolve first.

[AM50]

@Sterling



Agreed. Not many liked the Empire Strikes Back or Two Towers until their respective final parts were released. I hated ESB until I watched the Trilogy at once when I was older.

[MasamuneSSX]

Ozymandias23 wrote...
I also found the portrayal of women in Mass Effect 2 offensive at times. On Omega the Asari seemed to have been assigned the role of strippers, pole dancers and prostitutes. There seemed to be a recurring theme that
suggested women were play things, to be used and abused when opportunity permitted. This theme carried through to Jacob’s loyalty mission, a mission that I found disturbing on an emotional level and absolutely sickening.

In that mission we were presented with a scenario where a ship had crash landed, the captain had separated out the female crew members and placed them in a camp. He then gave these women to his officers to be used
as play things. The idea was horrific. Perhaps Bioware feel that the suggestion of rape is suitable content for their ‘dark and edgy’ video game but I don’t.  It was uncalled for and I found it sickening and disturbing.

I'm going to have to disagree with the portrayal of the Asari in ME 2. You did happen to notice that the person that controls the gangs of Omega and overthrew its previous Krogan ruler was an Asari. Nothing in Aria's character suggests she would have anything to do with stripping or whoring. If you want further examples of strong Asari characters, look at the now ruthless Liara T'Soni or Nessana or Samara - all very strong female roles there.

As for you distaste of some of the other things in Mass Effect 2, that is what you are there for. You are in a position to make a judgement on what these people have done. If you lack the moral courage to do so, then perhaps Mass Effect isn't the game for you.

[Mister Mage]

SwobyJ wrote...

ajlueke wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

I thought it was the Alliance that sent Alenko/Williams, as the Council still has its heads in the sand.

Humanity is now part of the council.  Interesting that when one colony is attacked they send a Spectre.  While with multiple human colonies attacked and a human led council "if you let the old council die" they don't do anything.  The idea of the Spectres was pretty much abandoned in the second game.

Yes - the writing is silly in this respect. Bring back the Spectres. (since we only know of 3 of them..ugh - hey maybe that's an idea for DLC...)

They send out the Spectre to deal with a colony...in their own territory.  It'd be like the US sending its military into other countries without rea...

...


Bad example.

Modifié par Mister Mage, 02 février 2010 - 05:19 .

[Darth_Ultima]

I loved the story of Mass Effect 2. The darker dirty dozen theme was perfect for this sequel and I can't wait for what they have in store for the third game. As for the strippers, even in the future men will still want to drool over naked women. GROW UP AND GET OVER IT!!!

[ERJAK2]

To the TC, go back and play through it again. There are a number of fridge brilliance moments(especially with Tali/Legion) that are easily missed and improve the game as a whole.