465 réponses à ce sujet

[Moonbox]

Space Shot wrote...

Starscream723 wrote...

At the end of Mass Effect, the Reapers were coming, and Shepard sets off determined to stop them, somehow.

By the end of Mass Effect 2, the Reapers are still coming, and Shepard has set off determined to stop them, somehow.

So really, I suppose that the poster who said "If you took ME2 out of the ME trilogy you'd miss pretty much NOTHING." has a point. Not a lot seems to have changed from the status quo we were left with at the end of the first game.

Well that's the power of over-generalizing.  By the same process, I can say that there wasn't any point for WWII because in the end we killed lots of Germans and destroyed their infrastructure, just as we did in WWI.  Of course I would be wrong in saying so, which is true for your statements about ME as well because any comparison requires the details which are so conveniently ignored when you generalize.

It's not the same process at all and your argument is pretty weak.  

In ME2 a new set of antagonists was revealed and subsequently destroyed.  We learned nothing new about the main character really.  We just got to go on new adventures with him/her.  Shepards story in this game was not expanded, which a good second volume would do.  It was sidetracked.  BioWare conveniently removed most of the cast from the first game so you could involve yourself with the busy work of assembling an all new cast. 

The entire premise of the story was to gather a shopping list of characters to go on a mission where you already knew what was going to happen and who you were fighting. 

[Darth_Ultima]

I had another thought about the Jack story mission. The whole point was to show you the true character of Cerberus. Jacks story alone made me want to put my boot on the Illusive Mans throat, a shotgun to his temple, and pull the trigger. The real world is ugly and dark and the best art brings that ugliness out into the light where it can be seen for what it is. So I disagree completely with this thread on every point.

[Dick Sterling]

AM50 wrote...

@Sterling

Agreed. Not many liked the Empire Strikes Back or Two Towers until their respective final parts were released. I hated ESB until I watched the Trilogy at once when I was older.

Empire Strikes Back is my favorite.

The final chapter of the Shepard story will shed light on alot of ME2. Likely making ME2 more enjoyable for some,  because now the holes have been filled.

ME1 was a setup, an intro into the ME universe, using Citadel space(a controlled envirnment) as the back drop. ME1 identified the antogonist. In ME2 we really dig in to chasing down the Reapers, outside of the controled envirnment. And develop up a team for the big surge in ME3.

ME3 will tie all the loose ends, and we will know the full story, and be able to enjoy it for what it really is. I think the writers have done a great job so far....but they will ultimatly be judged on how it all ends. And thats fair.

Modifié par Dick Sterling, 02 février 2010 - 05:46 .

[phimseto]

Moonbox wrote...

In ME2 a new set of antagonists was revealed and subsequently destroyed.  We learned nothing new about the main character really.  We just got to go on new adventures with him/her.  Shepards story in this game was not expanded, which a good second volume would do.  It was sidetracked.  BioWare conveniently removed most of the cast from the first game so you could involve yourself with the busy work of assembling an all new cast. 

The entire premise of the story was to gather a shopping list of characters to go on a mission where you already knew what was going to happen and who you were fighting. 

Nothing new about the main character? 

Again, to partially reference my earlier post:

- how the character feels about working with Cerebrus through his many conversations with people and how he chooses to defend, disown, or define his relationship with him.  These choices define the character.

- how the character feels about the genophage, from both historical and current perspectives.  How you answer those questions (and address those problems) defines your character. 

- how the character feels about the issue of artificial intelligence being given equal standing with organic evolution.  That question, and how it factors into the fates of both the Quarians and geth define your character. 

In those ways and others, you learn a great deal about the main character.  In making those judgments, you also make choices which shape the galaxy around you and set the stage for the final conflicts and resolution in Mass Effect 3.  The "conveniently removed" cast played a significant role in helping set that stage, as well: Wrex assuming a dominant position in Krogan society, Liara and her link to the Shadow Broker, Ashley/Kaidan and their role in challenging your relationship with Cerebrus and serving as surrogate Shepards because of your absence from the galactic stage. 

The Collectors were new, but the hook was the Repaers.  Were the Collectors some kind of redunandant system in case Sovereign didn't succeed in his mission?  It turns out that they were, and the revelation about who and what they were heralded what the price of failure would be.  The specific targeting of human colonies also specifically addressed the controversial role of humanity's booming onto the scene the last forty or so years (and affected by your choices in ME1) along with addressing the question of what the blowback for your success against Sovereign would be. 

My only problem with the story of Mass Effect 2 is the same one that Oliver Twist had with his empty bowl:

"Could I have more, please?"

[Digital Supremacy]

The second installment of Mass Effect was focused on characer development. These characters i would Imagine would still be with you in ME3. Sure the plot as a whole didnt have that bang Mass Effects plot had, but it continues the story none the less.



As far as the story being really dark? that's the point, its based within part of the system full of crime and villainy and all that other bad stuff. If people felt disgusted by what was going on, then those scenes succeeded in inflicting the correct emotional response. Sadly life, isn't made out of pixie farts and rainbows, so why should the Mass Effect universe be all good and fuzzy filled with bunnies and happy children frolicking through fields of flowers. just my opinion.



I enjoyed the game, and that's all that counts really, could care less if someone didn't enjoy it as i did. To each there own.

[jlb524]

I agree with most of what the OP mentioned.  Some of the stuff they included was offensive, especially...

Ozymandias23 wrote...

Samara’s loyalty mission was another that I took issue with, though for very different reasons.  We’re presented with her daughter, Morinth, a sexual predator, whose victims are killed by engaging in sex with her. We’re instructed to go to the apartment where her last victim Nef, a young girl, lived with her mother. The mother
allows us into Nef’s room where we listen to her video diary in order to find the password to allow us into the club where Morinth stalks her victims. The diary entries chart Nef’s first meeting with Morinth and mentions the beginning of an attraction between them. In one of the diary entries Nef comments that Morinth is a girl, that she’s attracted to a girl and asks ‘am I a freak?’

Why would this make her a freak? Why? Intentional or not, there is a suggestion there of homophobia.

This was just unnecessary. I know 'homophobia still exists in the future and blah blah blah', but BW didn't have to depict it in this manner.  Especially considering that poor Nef dies because of her lesbian fling.  I found it quite offensive.

Add to this the fact that all six romances are straight, and all the asari on Ilium seem to only have male aliens for their 'fathers' or were paired with male aliens (though gender isn't supposed to matter to them)....it seems this game couldn't be more heterosexist.

Modifié par jlb524, 02 février 2010 - 06:05 .

[Nozybidaj]

Dick Sterling wrote...

In ME2 we really dig in to chasing down the Reapers, outside of the controled envirnment. And develop up a team for the big surge in ME3.

At what point in ME2 did we "dig in to chasing down the Reapers"?

As for "develop up a team for the big surge in ME3", mine's all dead.  Now what?

[Br0th3rGr1mm]

I'll have to add that if the subject matter in the storyline made the OP feel "sickened" then the writter did their job. Writting (and Art in general) has the goal of generating and emotional response from its' audience. That emotion should NOT always be good and uplifting (that's just boring and frankly unrealistic).

The favorite scenes in the orignal ME that the OP mentioned as "memorable" are the gold standard for cheesy, feel good, dialog and while presented well in the genre of a space opera, those scenes outline the fact that the ME often took itself too seriously.   If THOSE moments are the OPs idea of the height of video gaming entertainment, then I understand the problem here.

Some of the OPs gameplay points are valid but the opinion as a whole is questionable by the above.  You certainly have a right to that opinion, just don't expect everyone to have a unique experience ruined because you failed to let go of your fond memories of the previous game.

Modifié par Br0th3rGr1mm, 02 février 2010 - 06:17 .

[jlb524]

Br0th3rGr1mm wrote...

I'll have to add that if the subject matter in the storyline made the OP feel "sickened" then the writter did their job. Writting (and Art in general) has the goal of generating and emotional response from its' audience. That emotion should NOT always be good and uplifting (that's just boring and frankly unrealistic). The favorite scenes in the orignal ME that the OP mentioned as "memorable" are the gold standard for sappy, feel good, dialog. If that's the OPs idea of the height of entertainment, then I understand the problem here.

I agree, but some of the stuff is just offensive.  Well, it was to me, since I'm in the demographic that would be offended by it.  I can see how most wouldn't care b/c it doesn't affect them personally.

I don't mind darker themes (the Jack quest didn't offend me, nor did the foul language), but blatant sexism or homophobia is just obnoxious.

[phimseto]

Oh no...the dread heterosexism.

I liked that they had it, because
a. just as there are people who were upset by her wondering that, there are also people today who do have objections to homosexuality and that would speak to their own concerns. It's a blunt, candid question that causes the player to conceretely address the matter on their own terms, for better or worse.

b. it makes Nif's story all the more tragic. This was an important moment in her development (her awakening/discovering of her sexuality) and it was utterly and completely preyed upon by a predator.

Bioware is first and foremost a story-driven game developer. I love moments like the one above that push the envelope and really give the player pause. Yes, a game should be entertaining but a story-based game shouldn't be afraid to push into the darker corners of society and our own behaviors.

On a lighter note, or all my concerns about the game being "as much a shooter as an RPG," the Nif story was a moment where I had to chuckle a bit because I imagine an army of pubescent FPS goons getting to that moment and not having a single clue how to react or respond.

Modifié par phimseto, 02 février 2010 - 06:19 .

[Nozybidaj]

Br0th3rGr1mm wrote...

I'll have to add that if the subject matter in the storyline made the OP feel "sickened" then the writter did their job.

Not to call you out specifically, because others have made the same sort of comment, but honestly that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

It is one thing to provoke an emotional response in the player because of their attachment to the characters and the world, it is entirely another to create a situation where a fan can come to the point that the subject matter of the game provokes such strong negative personal reactions to the game and the creators.  Once you start to hate the creators and the creation you are no longer engaged in the characters and the story, and the game is not serving its purpose as a vehicle for entertainment and story telling.

While my own personal feelings are not as strong as the OP's there are plenty of scenes in the game where I was engaged in the later manner rather than the former.  BW may have been trying to push some envelopes here which is a good thing, but I think in a lot of cases they missed the mark which is a bad thing.

[phimseto]

I would rather have them try and miss than not try just to cowtow to the easily offended.



See also: Morrigan putting on a bra to have sex with you in DA: O and the sex scenes in ME2 compared to ME1.

[Nozybidaj]

phimseto wrote...

I would rather have them try and miss than not try just to cowtow to the easily offended.

See also: Morrigan putting on a bra to have sex with you in DA: O and the sex scenes in ME2 compared to ME1.

I suppose I agree, but there are degrees to everything.

[Rogue Eagle]

dear OP:
lighten up.

A lot of the best fictional stories bear similarities to real life events. Entertainment comes in all forms, some people prefer the grittier side to the universe in a story.

Don't you see, everything in the game is mirroring real life! Some women are strippers, fact. Mass Effect doesnt dwell on this.

The game having a sexual predator was a bold move, but really, it's introducing a little bit more of real life into the game world.

As for the homophobe thing, Bioware is pushing the boundaries on same sex things a bit as it is. There's no 'suggestion' of homophobia. It's merely someone expressing rational fears. Just because you ignore something it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The game doesn't gloss over these things. There are people that worry about this in real life, why wouldn't they on another planet?
These are just some of the anchors that link us to the world of Mass Effect.

Modifié par Rogue Eagle, 02 février 2010 - 06:32 .

[RiouHotaru]

Just as Samara quoted about humans being the most individualistic species she's ever seen, I am amazed at how the game completely polarizes the audience.  Although, since the OP has yet to return to this thread and defend his position against some of the more sound arguments and neatly discussed points...?

Anyway, my $0.02 cents worth:

Story - It is true that the core story is neither as long, or as deep, but that's mostly because the goal is fairly clear-cut and easy to recognize.  In the first game, Shepard had next to nothing to go on, since no one knew what Saren was doing or where he was.  The point of ME1 was to explore, and learn these clues, to answer that question.  Hence why you have all but ONE of your squaddies recruited before even leaving the Citadel.

ME2, on the other hand, starts from a different point.  You know who the enemy is, you know what their plan is, and this time, you already have a plan of attack ready!  What are you missing?  The tools and skills needed to impliment this plan.  Cue scouring the galaxy for the strongest, sharpest, and brightest minds and bodies to aid you in whatever might happen as a result of your plan.  However, because the focus is on gathering your squad together, rather than exploring for clues, the change in focus is entirely natural and justified.  The people you take with you are more important than the mission, so you learn a LOT about them and who they are.  To say that the NPCs are weak and dialogue is stunted seems to point to the conclusion that you didn't spend a lot of time getting to know any of the characters or just muck about on the hub world.  If you paid attention, you'd have seen and heard a LOT.

Controversial Elements - I'm with a lot of the commentators here.  You seem to think that portraying things like misogyny, rape, and child abuse in an entertainment medium like a video game somehow trivalizies the content.  No.  It does not.  End of story.  The inclusion of the material is meant to show that these people, these aliens, can be just as bad as anyone else.  The fact that it provokes responses of hatred, joy (when issues are successfully resolved), and disgust shows that you are in fact connected to the characters and to the setting.  I'm sure a lot of people were horrified by what Jacob's dad had done, or what Jack was exposed to.  That's the POINT.  Bioware isn't trying to coddle you or shelter you, it's exposing you to the 'real world' of the ME Universe.  Where these sorts of things still take place, because it's part of the nature of being a sentient, sapient being.

[jlb524]

phimseto wrote...

Oh no...the dread heterosexism.

I liked that they had it, because
a. just as there are people who were upset by her wondering that, there are also people today who do have objections to homosexuality and that would speak to their own concerns. It's a blunt, candid question that causes the player to conceretely address the matter on their own terms, for better or worse.

b. it makes Nif's story all the more tragic. This was an important moment in her development (her awakening/discovering of her sexuality) and it was utterly and completely preyed upon by a predator.

 

It would be OK, if there were positive homosexual relationships shown to balance that out.  There were none.  As I've mentioned, not even the asari were in 'homosexual' relationships as all were with male aliens or had male alien parents.

The asari you give that locket too was with a male human.
There was the male Krogan reciting poetry to the asari.  They were an item.
The asari bartender's 'father' was  a male krogan.
You see an asari shopping with her male salarian father.

When is an asari ever paired with a female?  The Nef/Morinth incident.   But of course, that was hardly a positive portrayl.  Also, there's that asari you talk to as part of Shiala's quest (I can't remember her name).   She's portrayed as a cold-hearted b*tch though and derided b/c she was a pureblood and chose to have pureblood daughters.

It seems like the asari can only be 'straight' and hook up with male aliens of other species, or they can be deviants by hooking up with another from their own species.

[Moonbox]

Dick Sterling wrote...

I think it is stupid to put down the ME2 part of the story, when the Shepard/Reaper saga has not concluded yet. When that happens, then pick it apart all you like, but let it resolve first.

It's not stupid.  There wasn't much of a story.  We're not complaining that the 2nd game didn't have a conclusion or that there were loose ends.  We're complaining that the 2nd game's 'story' could have been completed in 3ish hours and that it added nothing to the overall story.  The 2nd part of most trilogies ADD something to the game. This story/game didn't add anything.

'Assembling' a new crew with totally unrelated back stories doesn't really count either, because the first crew was for whatever reason removed.  It seemed to me like the whole story was just a poorly disguised excuse to make a second game. 

[Lukertin]

tbf there aren't even any female salarian, krogan, or turian in the game.

[RiouHotaru]

Moonbox wrote...

Dick Sterling wrote...

I think it is stupid to put down the ME2 part of the story, when the Shepard/Reaper saga has not concluded yet. When that happens, then pick it apart all you like, but let it resolve first.

It's not stupid.  There wasn't much of a story.  We're not complaining that the 2nd game didn't have a conclusion or that there were loose ends.  We're complaining that the 2nd game's 'story' could have been completed in 3ish hours and that it added nothing to the overall story.  The 2nd part of most trilogies ADD something to the game. This story/game didn't add anything.

'Assembling' a new crew with totally unrelated back stories doesn't really count either, because the first crew was for whatever reason removed.  It seemed to me like the whole story was just a poorly disguised excuse to make a second game. 

...Did you ever watch 'The Empire Strikes Back'?  There wasn't a solid conclusion nor a clear resoultion of anything.  That was the ENTIRE POINT.  Also, there was something added to the story, but obviously you're completely missing it.

[Weskerr]

I think you're confusing your personal feelings with a work of art. If you don't like the content that's one thing, but not liking the quality of the content is something completely different.

I actually found it refreshing to play a game that isn't concerned with politically correct bull****. More importantly, however, I thought the quality and presentation were well done. If you don't like the choices your character is given, then go write your own novel and you'll be able to choose exactly how the characters behave as well as how they say things.

[phimseto]

jlb524 wrote...

Also, there's that asari you talk to as part of Shiala's quest (I can't remember her name).   She's portrayed as a cold-hearted b*tch though and derided b/c she was a pureblood and chose to have pureblood daughters.

It seems like the asari can only be 'straight' and hook up with male aliens of other species, or they can be deviants by hooking up with another from their own species.

Right, and those comments about purebloods are ugly in the first game when Liara brings them up and uglier in ME2, especially after you get that woman's backstory about why she hates non-Asari.  If anything, that speaks strongly to the concerns you have.  There's nothing wrong with Liara or with any of those daughters who died (one of whom you met in the first game), but the bigotry towards them is unbelievable.  It's a defense of homosexuality from a sci-fi standpoint.  No, the game isn't littered with same-sex couples.  It's traditional in some senses, subtle (in the best ways sci-fi can be) in others. 

Modifié par phimseto, 02 février 2010 - 07:00 .

[Rendar666]

Dude.... What, were you raised in a super Christian house-hold where everything not related to god is sickening, nasty and trashy and morally we're all evil? Grow up.



Yes, I thought the stuff that happened in the game, in some parts, was horrible! But it didn't make me think the game is trashy or sickening tp play! Get over yourself and stop being so naive.

[hamskii]

successful troll is...well, you know the rest

[jlb524]

phimseto wrote...

Right, and those comments about purebloods are ugly in the first game when Liara brings them up and uglier in ME2, especially after you get that woman's backstory about why she hates non-Asari.  If anything, that speaks strongly to the concerns you have.  There's nothing wrong with Liara or with any of those daughters who died (one of whom you met in the first game), but the bigotry towards them is unbelievable.  It's a defense of homosexuality from a sci-fi standpoint.  No, the game isn't littered with same-sex couples.  It's traditional in some senses, subtle (in the best ways sci-fi can be) in others. 

The homosexuality is so subtle it's all most non-existent.  On the flip-side, I almost feel the game is forcing my FemShep to be straight.  Heterosexuality is so blatant it's pathetic.  I hear it's worse for MaleShep, as a great deal of female npc flirts with you or you can kiss them.

Again, I understand the pureblood thing is pure bigotry...I get the subtlety.  That's not to say most people will.  And still, my point stands:  there isn't a positive portrayl of asari/asari relationships or asari/female relationships to counter act the negative ones.

[Arcadionn]

This is the 2nd of 3, suffering from the middle-child syndrome as many second opuses, it strives to give you the feeling of what is to come - Act 2, events unfolding revealing more information about the plot and how it will end up being, offering no real closure... This is the hardest segment to develop as it is one which leads to the most questions.



Mass Effect 1 had it easy in comparison. The Universe was new, you were Cmd Shepard a bastion of human skill and dedication, you became the first human spectre, you were put on a mission to prevent something of which the magnitude would only be revealed later in the game - or you thought it would. In the end, after traversing a cavalcade of exciting and dramatic moments, you reach the final epic conclusion which is the fight with sovereign... You know that this is not over, that more are coming and set off to ME2's Intro which is the (imo) real ending of Act 1 - not that ME1's ending was lackluster, it is still to date one of the best endings to a game ever.



ME2 is different, you know the threat, you are looking for it, but look, something you did not expect happens, your victory over Sovereign forced external forces to act, Harbinger is now severely interested in the humans whom destroyed their vanguard... the rest is spoiler heavy so.. enough of that.



The ending fight of which you spoilt the content despite your claim not to... is indeed a quasi cameo - although explained from the standpoint of its creation process. You really expected this to be the reason why humans were abducted?



On the rebuilding part, what would you have them do? "Oh jolly, we're off to see the reapers [...]"

It introduces the premise of the second, shows how serious it is for Cerberus to intervene so openly and it opens a - yes slightly predictable Collecter are after your rear end - plot twist.



The new characters are far more developped than the initial crew, - ME1 had barely any character evolution to a personal level, I cared far less for them in ME1 (I did, but less) than my ME2 squad - those who return are even more captivating. The loyalty missions/N7 missions and the like do feel like a list but they provide more backstory on ME2 and ME1 elements. You say it is hard to feel anything for them... I disagree, they each have different personality types, interaction types and evolutionary paths which renders it easy to view them as friends more than a crew in the end. I did care a lot when I lost Jack on my first playthrough. Walking around, listening to your crew commenting about how it impacted them and their families - not the most amazing side-story, but still felt like it added something, cemented further what was at stake.



Now I see where your post is heading towards... I think the grudge you hold against the game is mostly due to the - according to you - zeal when using inuendo and sexuality.



A) Asari - as announced by the matriarch - are often nubile in their maiden years and spend them dancing and serving as entertainers of various genres. That notion is only exacerbated by the notion your are in the Terminus Systems where crime and less Noble or Moral elements are promoted. Also, the fact that they dance angers you, but you mention slavery nowhere... to that extent, would it be far reaching to say slavery does not anger you?



The Jacob mission is meant to anger and disgust you, I know it did me, hence the person we find not walking off the planet... why are you so mad at it? Are you one of those people who would rather we forgot about our historical ****-ups and covered our children's ears to prevent them from hearing about them? We did far worse than what happened on the jacob mission throughout history. The mission had a lot of emotional weight for me and that means Bio did a good job imo. Such as with a movie or with real life disasters, emotion is often felt and acted upon. I highly doubt Bioware wanted to make rape or slavery a trivial matter.



Same for the kids, you feel something because it has a link to our own society, it is relevant. Entertainment can find many forms and definitions... as much as I see those elements as dark facets of humanity... they are part of humanity ignoring them will not make them go away. Another compelling / captivating - albeit disturbing - mission.



Nef asks if she was a freak - imo - because the experience was troubling her, hell she was being toyed with by a monster and was given drugs of potentially high potency. Psychotropics can do amazing things to someone's mind. I believe she was referring to the freak part as how she felt and her situation. It was crazy and new to her. I felt no homophobia in her words.



Your opinions are your own, but I fear they are biased due to the later segment of your post. ME2 was as great as ME1 was back in 2007, many things were transformed, most for the better, some for the status quo or became slightly less enjoyable... but all-in-all, the trilogy remains solid and fills me with questions and expectations for the 3rd and final opus.