169 réponses à ce sujet

[MackBenson]

magnuskn wrote...

I am not talking about the main plot in regards to the Reavers. I think it is pretty likely that the third game will be you uniting the different races for a giant battle against the Reavers and there are tons of interesting materials as for how that would unfold.

No, what I am talking about is the very high modularity of your teammates survival. As Shepard can die, it is clear that BW will have 4 VAs for the main character in ME3.

But since everybody can die in the final mission of ME2, it seems very probable that squad members from ME2 ( Tali, Garrus, Mordin would be my picks ) which can be squad members in ME3 will have very generic storylines, since they cannot be plot critical.

For example, if Tali is a possible member, the plot to recruit the Quarians could not have her critical role as a daughter of an admiral and status as hero of the Quarians be a critical element of that story arc, since she is potentially dead.


I could well be partially wrong however, since BioWare knows that leaving out Tali and Garrus ( and Mordin. Damn, he is one awesome character ^^ ) would enrage fans so much that they would be willing to invest the resources to have two completely different ways for such a "recruit the Quarians" story arc, one involving Talis unique background and one for a "generic Quarian ally".

I just cannot see how they'd do that for all the ME2 squad members. Then again, most of them are not really critical to a more political storyline, like the one we can expect in ME3.

In any case, I fear BioWare finds itself in a bad position for ME3.

They can either go the route of ME2 and write out all current squad members into minor plot roles, risking immense fan backlash from the fans of the really popular characters ( Tali and Garrus for sure, Mordin will develop a very loyal following, too, I suppose ).

OR they can invest massive resources into making ME3 really so modular that at least most fans will be pleased. I don't doubt that BW has the resources and will to do so, but the story implications are huge, to say the least.

My fear: BioWare went a little bit too far with the "everyone can die" ending and we as a consequence we will miss out on the proper character arcs for the best characters of ME1 + ME2.

Like you said, maybe if Tali dies, her point in the story could be critical, maybe the quarians dislike you now, and you don't get them on your side?

[Chained_Creator]

Alocormin wrote...
Will they make us another ship, I wonder?

If they do, I want a cruiser or a dreadnought. Man, that would be awesome. (I like big ships, give me a break. I don't like "sneaking around with cloaks".)

[magnuskn]

Brahlis wrote...

If you die, that's it. You have to create an entirely new Shepard for ME3. How you could fail that hard, I have no idea.

I didn't. Managed to kill Garrus and Thane in my first attempt, though. -.- My current one had one dead squaddie, the one I actually wanted to die.


 I wish BW would have had the foresight to make sure that some squad members cannot be killed, this is going to bring a lot of grief and fighting on the boards for the next two years. Unless they bring out some sort of statement that, yes, some surviving squad members will be back in active duty and be story relevant, and not relegated to cameos.

Well, actually in comparison to Dragon Age, the conversation trees were a bit limited in ME2. I mean, I had at least double the dialogue time with each of my party members in DA:O than in ME2, so maybe the resources needed for a more modular ME3 are not as high as feared by all? 

Although the plot relevance of your companions might really be nil in ME3, if that'd be how it goes.

Modifié par magnuskn, 01 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[LunaticHigh7777]

I haven't gone through the end game yet, but I'm sure there are certain characters that can't be killed. There didn't seem to be a "totally obliterated" achievement. So those characters can develop core storylines in the 3rd game.

I'd say any character that can be killed will probably show up in a cameo in ME3 unless they were your love interest. I think you'll probably be able to recruit Liara, Wrex, and Liara/Kaiden again in the 3rd game. They'll probably join Talia and Garrus, and whoever your love interest was in ME2 if not Talia or Garrus. Plus they'll throw in some new characters. I mean, we got 11 characters out of the box here including Zaeed.

Potential character deaths that could really add drama in ME3: Grunt, who you were basically told to bring back alive since he's the prime specimen of Krogan. Thane's death could easily trigger his son's turnaround to assassin-hood. I can't see anyone missing Jack, Zaeed, Mordin, Samara, Jacob, etc. I really just see Samara going back to Justicaring. Miranda will be interesting, I've read her she can die, but I also think she'll be a popular LI choice. If she dies, she's dead. If she lives and is not your LI, brief cameo.

EDIT: It looks like anyone can be killed I guess? But is it possible for everyone to die? It might be that if certain characters die, other ones will live, and they are able to write several storylines based upon that. 

Modifié par LunaticHigh7777, 01 février 2010 - 10:03 .

[magnuskn]

LunaticHigh7777 wrote...

EDIT: It looks like anyone can be killed I guess? But is it possible for everyone to die? It might be that if certain characters die, other ones will live, and they are able to write several storylines based upon that. 

It seems that, yeah, you can manage to get everyone killed. At least the relevant videos on YouTube indicate as much. I counted eleven coffins in one...

[magnuskn]

SwobyJ wrote...

2)PLEASE GET THIS (all caps makes everything clear!) - IF SHEPARD DIES AT THE END OF ME2, YOU CANNOT IMPORT AND MUST START A DEFAULT SHEPARD. It's not rocket science.

Which I already acknowledged on the last page. If you are going all-caps, at least have the courtesy of reading the whole thread before going off.

[Nautica773]

marshalleck wrote...
I'm not saying it's not possible, but all of that seems directly at odds with what we know of the characters in ME2.

Tali can be exiled and can survive the mission--so what, she just leaves and gets an apartment on the Citadel or something? Eh..

Garrus's contempt for C-Sec is plain, he makes no attempt to hide it. Equally implausible.

Miranda's "resignation" is a death sentence if she sets foot anywhere TIM can insert Cerberus agents. Again, hard to imagine a compelling reason she'd leave the Normandy.

Jacob also retired from the Alliance for a reason and signed up with Cerberus, who he had significant reservations against...it's not a casual decision, and I very much doubt the Alliance would take an associate of a known rogue/terrorist organization back into their ranks.

The characters have plenty of reasons to stay with Shepard assuming they survived the mission. All I'm saying is that I hope my decisions in ME2 matter, both if the characters died and if they survived.

It's more that the designers aren't likely to put a lot of work into followers that people have a high probability of not even having alive. If half or more of the followers for ME3 are composed of characters that could have died over the last two, that could leave some players with almost no choice on who they can bring with them.
Kaiden and Ashley provide a constant - the designers know one of them will be alive. The entire cast of ME2 aren't constant and I don't think the designers want to put some player's decisions over other's. Sure, they have compelling reasons to stay with Shepard, but it's not hard to come up with compelling reasons for them to leave either.
If Tali is exiled, she could try and still convince the Flotilla to join, maybe hunting down Quarians on their Pilgrimage and amassing a small group to go back and carry her message with them. Miranda, if she eschewed Cerberus' employment, could probably get work rather easily with the Alliance military. The reason they would work to overcome these difficulties is because of their loyalty to Shepard and their desire to help him stop the Reavers.
I would like ME2 cast to return as followers. I'm going to miss Mordin otherwise. I'm just not going to get my hopes up.

[Bryy_Miller]

Kalfear wrote...

magnuskn wrote...

I am not talking about the main plot in regards to the Reavers. I think it is pretty likely that the third game will be you uniting the different races for a giant battle against the Reavers and there are tons of interesting materials as for how that would unfold.

No, what I am talking about is the very high modularity of your teammates survival. As Shepard can die, it is clear that BW will have 4 VAs for the main character in ME3.

But since everybody can die in the final mission of ME2, it seems very probable that squad members from ME2 ( Tali, Garrus, Mordin would be my picks ) which can be squad members in ME3 will have very generic storylines, since they cannot be plot critical.

For example, if Tali is a possible member, the plot to recruit the Quarians could not have her critical role as a daughter of an admiral and status as hero of the Quarians be a critical element of that story arc, since she is potentially dead.


I could well be partially wrong however, since BioWare knows that leaving out Tali and Garrus ( and Mordin. Damn, he is one awesome character ^^ ) would enrage fans so much that they would be willing to invest the resources to have two completely different ways for such a "recruit the Quarians" story arc, one involving Talis unique background and one for a "generic Quarian ally".

I just cannot see how they'd do that for all the ME2 squad members. Then again, most of them are not really critical to a more political storyline, like the one we can expect in ME3.

In any case, I fear BioWare finds itself in a bad position for ME3.

They can either go the route of ME2 and write out all current squad members into minor plot roles, risking immense fan backlash from the fans of the really popular characters ( Tali and Garrus for sure, Mordin will develop a very loyal following, too, I suppose ).

OR they can invest massive resources into making ME3 really so modular that at least most fans will be pleased. I don't doubt that BW has the resources and will to do so, but the story implications are huge, to say the least.

My fear: BioWare went a little bit too far with the "everyone can die" ending and we as a consequence we will miss out on the proper character arcs for the best characters of ME1 + ME2.

Becuase everyone can die, ME3 will have new squad mates like ME2 does because no way for Bioware to know who lived and died for each individual game!

Because it's not like the entire point of the series is to carry over decisions into the next game.

[Brahlis]

Bioware shot themselves in the foot by just having way too many squad members in ME2. If they would've had the same amount from ME1 pretty much then we would've been able to have everyone from both games in 3.

[i love lamp x3]

your shepard can't die... if he does, you cannot import your save into me3.



and i personally think the strategy they'll take is to reward those who managed to keep everyone alive. basically.. i think they'll choose the characters, likely based on how awesome they are, to keep on your squad in me3, plus add new, and maybe mix in another of the originals. so, for example, if you kept everyone alive, your squad will ultimately total say 12. now depending on who died in your game (it's my understanding that anything over 4 and the whole squad ends up dying). so, if 4 of your squad dies this would result in only 8 members for me3. the numbers are hypothetical, just there for example. the point is, if members of your team die, IF bioware planned to have any of those particular characters in the next game, that character and his/her missions will simply be cut from your game.



seriously i think that is the smartest approach and i'm pretty sure the guys at bioware know what to do and how to please us.

[IceSavage]

My take on the whole situation is that the characters may return but not as squadmembers. I believe that the storyline of ME3 will be to build a fleet and that the cameos of the surviving character will play a part of building that fleet. Example: Tali as Fleet Admiral, if she is dead then you get a someone else, generic. Zaeed as leader of the Blue Suns, if he is dead then you get someone generic. Miranda would be in charge of you base of operations if she is dead then maybe her sister would be that person (you can use the same Voice Actor for both, they are twins after all). Mordin as your Q character. Grunt helps you recruit the Krogans. Jacob and Garrus train your army or Garrus leads your Intelligence Department.



Still I think a new squad would be cool or maybe only do Cameo missions with the old squad members. One or two missions were an old squad member would join you if they were alive, if not you could take any of the new squad members.



Characters I would like to see as new squad members:

Joker who gets fixed by some kind of alien tech in the intro.

EDI as in a special Synthetic Body.



Then I would like to see a Female Turrian Spectre Recruit. Someone with a chip on their shoulder who thinks they are better then Shepard. Make her related to Nihlus for a cool ME1 tie in.



A krogan Female. I think it would be funny to have Wrex style comments but from the Female Krogan Point of view.



Kal'Reegar as a Squad mate would be cool. I think he would fit in well enough

as would Commander Rentola.

[SuSuSudio]

FYI - when a writer pitches a trilogy (mostly talking books here, but same applies to games) they pitch the entire series, not just 1 book at a time. The publisher (EA) would not have signed off on ME2 if ME3 hadn't been plotted and planned effectively.



Don't stress

[Vaenier]

I really like the backup characters idea. If a squadmate died, their is an alternative to take their place, so story elements dont have to be completely different.

Example: Tali dieing and being replaced with another Quarian marine you save on a geth planet. They join up and fill the role of Tali when securing the Quarian fleet's help.

[magnuskn]

SuSuSudio wrote...

FYI - when a writer pitches a trilogy (mostly talking books here, but same applies to games) they pitch the entire series, not just 1 book at a time. The publisher (EA) would not have signed off on ME2 if ME3 hadn't been plotted and planned effectively.

Don't stress

Well, the reason a lot of us are stressing is that the precedent now shows that BW is fully willing to shove former squad members with uncertain fates into minor roles, and that it would save them a ton of resources for ME3.

I can only hope that they consider the loyalty of their fan base more important than having ME3 be a bit cheaper.

Vaenier wrote...

I really like the backup characters
idea. If a squadmate died, their is an alternative to take their place,
so story elements dont have to be completely different.
Example:
Tali dieing and being replaced with another Quarian marine you save on
a geth planet. They join up and fill the role of Tali when securing the
Quarian fleet's help.

I think Kal'Regar could have been introduced for just that reason. Although, if I read correctly, he can also easily die.

Modifié par magnuskn, 01 février 2010 - 10:47 .

[Pauravi]

They can't come up with a new crew every single game, at least some of them have to return. Bioware just spent a lot of time getting us to develop new interpersonal relationships with, and earn the loyalty of, what is supposed to be the most formidable team that is possible to assemble, with two of them stretching way back to ME1.

Story-wise, realize that we now have a new ship and a new crew, and there is little reason for them to be going anywhere. I don't see Bioware using the "omg teh ship blew up again!!1!" plot device, and having a whole crew of loyal shipmates just up and leave is practically inconceivable.

I agree that some of them may not come back for logistical reasons, such as Samara the loner justicar or, sadly, Mordin (who is a very old and non-romancable Salarian). Maybe Thane as well, if they decide to let his disease end him (you Thane lovers knew what you were getting into). But there are the ME1 love interests, the ME2 love interests, and a whole squad of characters that we already know and love.

ME2 is all about relationships, and it makes the whole episode almost pointless if they simply write them all out because of what MIGHT happen. They put a lot of effort into coming up with a set of very deep personalities. Bioware builds its games on its characters, and they are trying to get the players to have an emotional investment in the world and the mission; that doesn't happen if all the characters that we love disappear after every game. IMO, Bioware has just spent two games doing 2 things: introducing us to an inevitable disaster on an epic scale, and introducing us to the people that we will need to solve it.

Bioware understands the situation they've created with the cascading choices and branching relationships. I believe they fully intend to bring back many of the characters as full squadmates and relationships, even if many players will not utilize all of them. The more I think about it, the less I would be surprised if almost all of the cast members from ME1 and ME2 would be available except for a few who have good reasons not to be there (Wrex, Samara, maybe Thane or Mordin); it just increases replayability anyway

All you who think that they're going to get rid of everyone and start are, I believe, underestimating Bioware's storytelling skill and outright ambition. 2 DVD's full of characters and dialogue next game. Trilogy conclusions are supposed to tie up loose ends and bring resolution, and that is what is going to happen no matter what your character did along the way, mark my words

Modifié par Pauravi, 01 février 2010 - 10:52 .

[ComTrav]

I agree that it's most likely to have returning characters be non-squad members.

I also expect to get a lot of email from them, because it's a lot easier to do that than more animation voice acting, and still creates at least some emotional involvement. Hopefully in ME3 Shepherd will be able to actually reply. (He can hack almost any terminal in the galaxy, but can't figure this out...)

Also, I think ME2 will be a current-gen game if we're referring to consoles. There's no Xbox 720 announced even, and the conventional wisdom is that the current-gen consoles are just now hitting their stride and there's little reason to replace them. They might go all motion control and jump on the Project Natal bandwagon, though.

Modifié par ComTrav, 01 février 2010 - 10:51 .

[Commisar_V]

magnuskn wrote...


Well, the reason a lot of us are stressing is that the precedent now shows that BW is fully willing to shove former squad members with uncertain fates into minor roles, and that it would save them a ton of resources for ME3.

I can only hope that they consider the loyalty of their fan base more important than having ME3 be a bit cheaper.

Well, at least Garrus/Tali are squadmates in both games, so they have at least a fighting chance in getting in 3... Plus the aforementioned 'Main plot around Shepard, everyone else is just icing on the cake, good icing, lots of it, and masterly flavored, but still not the main course." Path that could be taken.

[SuSuSudio]

Now that EDI "is" the Normandy, I really don't see them killing it again. It'd be killing a great character off just when it had started to develop. EDI's on an upward trajectory, she'll be around for a while

[Daeion]

gr00grams wrote...

Well, they wrote more story holes than this as well;

Like who cares if your shepard dies? they can build you again... and again,.... and again...
I realize it was insanely expensive, but still.

It's pretty simple, ME1's story absolutely dominates this ones, but ME2's character progressions are still somewhat better... but that was the whole game... so they should be a bit better.

They'd need to get your body back and only the normandy with it's IFF can get past the omega 4 relay so no one would be going to get it,

[xMister Vx]

 First of all, they had said from the start that you can import your character into ME3 unless you died in ME2. What, they're going to introduce a new hero just for the people who somehow managed to get themselves killed? "Oh, hello there, this is Commander... err... Shopard. He's from... Mendoir, and he held off the, uh... Hanar pirates during the Skullian Blitz." No way.

As to the squad, it only seems logical to me that for the extremely epic end you'll need not only the best, but the best of the best of the best. Which basically means a mixture of both crews and a couple of new characters, I'm sure. They can't keep doing a new team every time, but they will have enough new people for a complete team even if, for example, everybody died in your squad. I guess you'll have to choose. They can't have thirty voice actors fully voicing all the different squadmates. I'm sure that they'll cut someone from the ME2 team (reducing them to a non-squadmate role, even if they survived), but then again I'm sure that the fan favourites will be in.

[screwoffreg]

It really does't make a whole lot of sense to bring in an ALL new squad, as from the very beginning the one you have is touted as the best in the galaxy! So what does that mean, you hire the leftovers from other places? I think there are a few characters that so far have a reason to leave if they are not included:

Mordin to continue research on genophage/Reaper threat
Jack to continue her quest for vengeance/self discovery
Samara to continue her quest (and make room for another Asari biotic)
Grunt is iffy, I think he would want the challenge of the Reapers
Jacob and Miranda stay as they have nowhere else to go (whether you are working for Illusive Man or not)
Thane is probably...well..not going to last
Garrus stays because he basically says he has NOWHERE else to go and no other friends!
Tali stays because her home is now the Normandy itself, doubly so if you have a romance active
Zaeed is gone, no more $$$
Kasumi is an unknown at this point

So it looks like only four characters have a real reason to stay while the others are up in the air. That leaves plenty of room for new characters including the returning ME 1 squadmates  So far, Jacob, Miranda, Tali, and Garrus also cover the bases for a good starting squad (Jacob and Miranda = Biotics, Tali =Tech, Garrus = fighting+tech).

Modifié par screwoffreg, 01 février 2010 - 11:03 .

[mepilot]

I stopped reading 'bout this guy's plot opinion the moment I saw "reavers"...

[magnuskn]

mepilot wrote...

I stopped reading 'bout this guy's plot opinion the moment I saw "reavers"...

Oi. Well, I guess it being quite late here excuses that? Ahem. ^^ I'll correct that before it gets around...

Modifié par magnuskn, 01 février 2010 - 11:15 .

[enormousmoonboots]

marshalleck wrote...

magnuskn wrote...

4lex_7ru wrote...

You can't import a game where he dies
so they will still have only 2 VAs.

Uh, source?

A number of interviews with Casey Hudson prior to ME2's release where he talked about Shepard's story, potential death, and the direction of the trilogy.

Loading screens. They say something like, "You can import your character to ME3...if you survive."