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[_Aine_]

ciaweth wrote...

[*]What if, by hardening Alistair, I made it so that he will eventually get tired of my crap and dump me anyway?[*]
[*][/list]

  lol   This made me laugh. These forums are great today. lol    I have some of those same thoughts and i actually *hope* some of the "happy" decisions that are found through questionable means have some later repercussions.  Probably beyond the scope of it all, but it would be nice.    Thanks for the giggle though  

[TheBlackBaron]

ciaweth wrote...

Freckles04 wrote...

But I wouldn't trade that playthrough for anything. It wasn't a happy ending, but it was certainly a memorable one with much more impact than a fairytale-type where my hero and I rode off into the sunset.

It's funny how used we (and I really am including myself here) are to the concept that a happy ending means the female doesn't ride off into the sunset, romantically unattached.  Cowboys do it all the time, but ladies end up marrying the prince, or whatever.  Getting ditched by Alistair messed me up good, and I avoid that scenario like the plague now, but it highlighted to me that my kickbutt Warden didn't *have* to have him to be happy.

Well, judging by the number of ladies here who get messed up, as you say, by Alistair ditching them or sacrificing himself because they weren't interested in sharing...it's probably because a large majority like marrying the prince and settling down. Likewise, guys seems perfectly happy with the John Wayne sunset ending. I'm aware I'm making huge generalizations here and that there will be legions of palyers who go the opposite way, this is just what I've observed.

EDIT: Also, I've got a male human Mage playthrough in the works. I plan on making his a Michael Corleone at the end of Godfather Part II-type ending: at the top of his game and at the pinnalce of power (Alistair being a puppet of his), and so very, very alone in the world. Oh yeah, there's gonna be some villainous decisions made.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 02 février 2010 - 01:42 .

[ciaweth]

Right, that's what I was remarking on. It's weird how upset I got when I was presented with the sort of "guy-ish" option of riding off into the sunset instead of settling down. I usually think I'm somehow beyond that, in my head.

(Edited because huked onn fonickz werkd fer meeh.)

Modifié par ciaweth, 02 février 2010 - 01:45 .

[Zwomann]

Oh - I will play through a second time - most likely as a male with an bad attitude just to see what happens... but I personally like the happy ending anyway - no matter how lame that sounds... lol I hope Bioware lets me keep it to some degree...

[SusanStoHelit]

When I first played through, I was really ticked off about the lack of a happy ending - a completely happy one, I mean. I never expected a happy ending to be easy in such a setting. But I did think it should be at least possible - if you made exactly the right choices, if you had a high enough coercion score, etc. Having now spent considerably more time ingame and seen how the world works, I'm much less aggrieved.

I suppose part of the problem is that for many of us, games are our form of escapism. Part of the reason I play is to relax, to have fun, to escape from the humdrum of ordinary life and the troubles of the real world.So 'real' endings don't always make me happy. I can get those in real life. I appreciate the more real and gritty endings, their emotional impact, their pathos and pain, their nuances and complexity - but I don't necessarily like them.

Part of me would still like the fairy tale ending - at least one of them. Something for those (I include myself) who would like to occasionally get that ending, but which they'd have to work damned hard to get. Most of me agrees that the endings we've got fit the world much better - but I can't avoid occasionally thinking wistfully that I'd really like one truly happy ending.

[Edited for formatting. Grrr.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 02 février 2010 - 02:00 .

[ejoslin]

Well, there ARE some happy, even blissfully happy endings. How you get them may be not how you expect. I know my first play through, the ending was so wildly different than I anticipated, but it was a very happy ending. Just not the one I thought it would be. There's a good reason why there are so many Zevran and Leliana fans out there.

[Jaulen]

First playthrough I didn't realize there were romance options....so I romanced Alistar by accident. I hardened him, killed Loghain, made Alistair solo king, stayed as mistriss, tossed Anora in the tower to wait to see what happened with Alistair, left Alistair at the gates since he wasn't one of my better fighers...(not knowing how to spec a warrior (I'm more of a rouge type myself)).

Did the dark ritual.

Now the whole hardening Alistair and the dark ritual thing just totally fit the way I was playing my first *blind* character. And I really think from a female's POV was the best possible ending (of course, if you didn't expect the *prince marries the heronie and rides off into the sunset* ending (which personally I hate.....so unrealistic....Like I've said B4, watch a Disney movie for that, I prefer the original Grimm stories to Disney btw))

I live, Alistair lives, he's a good king, and I get to follow my developed sense of honor and help rebuild the GWs with my elven sidekick (not romanced), and after a bit the king comes and joins me (his one tue love).Things are happy for all until......DA2 comes out

And as I have said in other posts, as a HNF character, making yourself Queen is the ultimate in selfish gameplay (1) You can't have kids with Alistair, so the whole live happily ever after and have a parcel of kids is fangirl fantasy and won't happen in DA world (without some weird and sidelined thing happening, unless you are a TOTAL beatch and okay with someone like Wynne sacrificing their life just so you can be preggers (what a beatch....my characters would LOVE to cut off your head!) (2) if you get preggers as a HNF from a thrird party as Queen, expect to be beheaded..... has history taught you NOTHING?!?!?!? in regards to a female's purity? Especially as a noble? Hello???? *knock knock*
*hears echoing from Alistair/I wanna be Queen fangirl heads*


I'ev had a female romacing Alistair being Mistress, female romancing Ali and Zev picking neither doing ultimate sacrifice, male doing ultimate sacrifce.....haven't done HN yet, since to me, that seems trite and easy for an ending compared to the others (yeah, your family dies and all that, but you aint part of a totally repressed population, playing HN in DAO is like playing an elf in LOTR IMHO, LOVE the way elves are handled in this game, dwarves are still a little sterotyped for my like,...reminds me of "Brega's Path" (spelling? wine/I probably have the title incorrect, it was a duology) book to me)

Modifié par Jaulen, 02 février 2010 - 02:17 .

[Jaulen]

SusanStH: "I dunno, as a *new* video gamer (I played 'Paladium' instead of Dnd back in the late 80's early 90's.......I don't play for a happy ending escape...I play to play a character...."



I still kind of figure that if I wanted the happy evger after ending I'd rent a Disney movie, or The Last Unicorn (heck...even Watership down for that matter)

[SusanStoHelit]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, there ARE some happy, even blissfully happy endings. How you get them may be not how you expect. I know my first play through, the ending was so wildly different than I anticipated, but it was a very happy ending. Just not the one I thought it would be. There's a good reason why there are so many Zevran and Leliana fans out there.

I have 11 characters, although most haven't finished yet. I haven't seen one.

Part of my problem is that I detest Anora - and can't abide putting her on the throne. So if my female characters want to 'ride off into the sunset' with Alistair they still aren't happy. And I don't see the HNF ending as completely happy either - because it isn't what Alistair wants.

I had my HNM romanced Morrigan (I was actually pretty happy with how that ended) and married Anora to prevent her ghastliness - according to the epilogue cards that didn't work. My other males haven't finished yet, so we'll see. I think the one who's romancing Leliana may get a chance. Sadly, I'm not really 'into' Leliana. My female elven mage who is romancing Zevran may get the chance too. I'm learning to appreciate Zevran more and more.

But ... the real issue here is that for most of those posting about the lack of a happy ending - they want that ending with Alistair and Morrigan. Because those are the two 'favourite' romanceable characters, insofar as I can tell, anyway.

[ejoslin]

I think think of at least one reason why marrying Alistair is NOT selfish. She is trying to avert a civil war. Her choices for ruler are Alistair, whom she feels is weak (I'm not saying he IS, I'm just saying that's her perception) and she feels Anora is power hungry and has allowed various outrages to go on under her rule. She feels her only choice is to marry Alistair and rule through him, and hope that either she gets pregnant by HER true love (Zevran, whom she'd much rather be married to) or that Alistair has a bastard child by someone else. It's not perfect, but it's certainly not selfish.



Of course, she never romanced Alistair, so really, her only motive IS rebuilding Ferelden. It certainly isn't her own happiness.



That said, my first play through, romanced Alistair all the way, got dumped, took it hard. Started a romance with Zevran. Got blown away by the absolute depth of that one (I took up with him trying to avoid heart ache and love, heh), refused to do the dark ritual, expected to do a grand suicide gesture, and was shocked at Alistair's declaration and gesture, then ended up rebuilding the Grey Wardens with Zevran. it was an amazing rollercoaster ride. I have never felt so many emotions in a game, but I'd definitely call that a blissful ending. Except Anora ended up on the throne.

[ejoslin]

Blissful happy endings seem to involve rebuilding the grey wardens. If you love Alistair and don't harden him and don't make him king you can have a wonderful ending with him. Same with if you romance Zevran and rebuild the grey wardens with him. I'm sure you can have a wonderful ending with Leliana as well (but I wouldn't know for sure). There are a lot of compromise endings as well -- marrying for political reasons and keeping your true love as a lover on the side. Marrying for love but knowing you can't have children. Being the mistress to your true love, the king.



Then there are a lot of unhappy endings as well. But they're beautiful in their own ways as well.

[Jaulen]

I loved the Zevran romace, even though I hadn't totally completed it.....I still had Zev and Ali at love and handn't picked one when my female did the ultimate sacrifice.



So my current playthrough I'm planing on romancing Zevran all the way (so hard as a female (just finished Lothering and halfway through Bercillian Forest (first quest) and ali's already at 28%....my male character only had Alistair at 80% even with being a goody-two shoes at the end)



Unless you are playing a totally delusion character.....they ALREADY know there is no 'riding off into the sunset with prince charming" in DA:O.





And there are really no happily ever after blissful endings in DAO. You may think so.....butm just wait for DO2.....;if choices made in DOA bit you in the butt, think what;s in store for your future!!!!!

[SusanStoHelit]

Jaulen wrote...

SusanStH: "I dunno, as a *new* video gamer (I played 'Paladium' instead of Dnd back in the late 80's early 90's.......I don't play for a happy ending escape...I play to play a character...."

I still kind of figure that if I wanted the happy evger after ending I'd rent a Disney movie, or The Last Unicorn (heck...even Watership down for that matter)

I disagree. I never played a computer game in my life until 5 years ago. And I've never 'gamed' at all before that - it wasn't in my part of the world. But I've been reading SF/fantasy for more than 40 years - including 'dark fantasy'. It is possible to have a dark world where terrible things happen - but there are usually redeeming grace notes of hope and compassion. As there are in DAO. In such a world, happy endings are not impossible - although they may be rare.

I don't want Disney (ick). And as I said, I don't really want or need the completely happy ending most of the time. I just feel nostalgic for it on occasion. And I can understand other peoples' feeling miffed.

For me, gaming is going on the hero's journey. I'm out to save the world. I know there's a price to be paid - and sometimes the journey ends in death. I love the ultimate sacrifice ending. But if I'm going to be permitted to live, well ... when happiness doesn't come my way after all I've been through, when I'm not 'rewarded', I sometimes feel a little hard done by.

Do I want happiness and roses on all sides? No. Do I want it to be easy? Emphatically no.

Is it all right for me to occasionally say, "Wouldn't it be nice if after 11 playthroughs I could have one where I was really happy at the end?"

Edit: Watership Down - the worst. book. ever. written. One of the very few I'd actually consider burning.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 02 février 2010 - 02:42 .

[ejoslin]

Jaulen wrote...

I loved the Zevran romace, even though I hadn't totally completed it.....I still had Zev and Ali at love and handn't picked one when my female did the ultimate sacrifice.

If you loved the Zevran romance without ever finishing it . . . You are in for a real treat when you do finish it is all I can say.  I loved it too; it's fun, it's gritty, it does have a very real feel to it.  But it's the depth that gets me every time.  

[SusanStoHelit]

ejoslin wrote...

Blissful happy endings seem to involve rebuilding the grey wardens. If you love Alistair and don't harden him and don't make him king you can have a wonderful ending with him. Same with if you romance Zevran and rebuild the grey wardens with him. I'm sure you can have a wonderful ending with Leliana as well (but I wouldn't know for sure). There are a lot of compromise endings as well -- marrying for political reasons and keeping your true love as a lover on the side. Marrying for love but knowing you can't have children. Being the mistress to your true love, the king.

Then there are a lot of unhappy endings as well. But they're beautiful in their own ways as well.

I think this illustrates my point. All truly happy endings are conditional on not loving Alistair or Morrigan.

I can be happy with Alistair if I put Anora on the throne. - Not. I wish I could kill the **** thoroughly every time. She's just another Loghain in waiting.

I can be happy with Zevran or Leliana. - Not. Not really. Not my cup of tea either of them. Nor that of many people, as I said earlier.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 02 février 2010 - 02:39 .

[ejoslin]

Well, having a happy ending with Zevran is still a happy ending, is it not? It may not be the ending you expected, but it IS happy. I like it, at least.  Just because you would not choose it (and I understand not everyone likes him) does not mean it's not there.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 février 2010 - 02:42 .

[errant_knight]

ciaweth wrote...

Freckles04 wrote...

But I wouldn't trade that playthrough for anything. It wasn't a happy ending, but it was certainly a memorable one with much more impact than a fairytale-type where my hero and I rode off into the sunset.

It's funny how used we (and I really am including myself here) are to the concept that a happy ending means the female doesn't ride off into the sunset, romantically unattached.  Cowboys do it all the time, but ladies end up marrying the prince, or whatever.  Getting ditched by Alistair messed me up good, and I avoid that scenario like the plague now, but it highlighted to me that my kickbutt Warden didn't *have* to have him to be happy.

I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the "happy" endings for DA:O turned out to be not so happy come the expansion and sequels. It just seems like a BioWare kind of thing to do. (And I say that in as loving a way as possible, BioWare folks.)

Yes, I'm positive that I'm going to regret some of the things I did in all my playthroughs to date.  When the expansion comes out, if they throw too many curveballs, I may have to play through the whole of Origins again.  I'm paranoid about all my decisions now. 

• O NOES, what if by making Alistair king, I set him up for an assassination, whereas if I'd pissed him off and let Loghain live, Alistair would be alive now?!
  
• What if, by hardening Alistair, I made it so that he will eventually get tired of my crap and dump me anyway?
  
  
• If I romance Zevran or Leliana will they someday screw up my life?
  
  
• All the Mage Collective quests:  WTF HAVE I DONE?  Some of this is very shady.
  
  
• Do I want to be messing around with these Red Jenny people?
  
  
• What if I killed the very last high dragon?!
  
  
• How many children have I orphaned just by going and doing what needed to be done to fix the Blight problem?
  
  
• Morrigan = uh, worrisome.
  
  
• Flemeth = uh, worrisome.
  
  
• You get the picture. 

 

[*]This is one of the reasons I like it that the endings are complex. So much more possibility! Unless the story is entirely over, a 'happy ending' means something really, really bad had to happen at the beginning of the next installment. This way, there are enough loose ends to make things pretty dire without completely undoing the happiness that exists within the available endings. (Ignore the weird asterisk thing. It won't go away)

Modifié par errant_knight, 02 février 2010 - 02:53 .

[said a mom]

having played a city elf the first time (and gotten dumped of course) I tried to do a play through with HFN - but as soon as I went down to the kitchen and saw good ole Nan berating and name calling her elf servants, I got pissed off and just couldn't get behind the character... so I did some research and learned how to put the I shall be queen cheat/mod in - I figure that it is a good parallel for my female elf character - she would have to be really sneaky and tricky to hold on to Alistair as King, and viola!

[SusanStoHelit]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, having a happy ending with Zevran is still a happy ending, is it not? It may not be the ending you expected, but it IS happy. I like it, at least.  Just because you would not choose it (and I understand not everyone likes him) does not mean it's not there.

Yes, it is still a conditionally happy ending. It's conditional on several things.

Shallow condition - finding short, thin men attractive (the rest is moddable, that isn't).

OCD condition - the accent is wrong. The voice acting is great - and so is the dialogue. But a fake Spanish accent for an Antivan? Fail.

Serious condition: I didn't choose to be a Grey Warden, I didn't want to be a Grey Warden. I'm doomed to hideous nightmares for life and an early death (unless I succumb, ofc, *shudders*). I paid the price. The world has been saved - and it was worth the price. Okay, done deal, where's my reward? "Oh, I get to lead and rebuid the wardens whom I didn't want to join? And whom I resent or even hate? Lucky me."

Yes, it is the ending I expected, but it is not the ending I wanted. My characters are not happy with it. The same is true for Leliana.

Edit: For me, the happiness is only partly about the resolution of the romance. As I said, I liked the Morrigan one for my HNM. It's about how I see the character, their vision of the world, their goals and hopes and dreams. Most of them are incredibly unhappy with the way the world is (kudos to Bioware) and want to change it for the better. So far, they feel as if they haven't really changed much of anything, with the exception of the blight.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 02 février 2010 - 03:19 .

[ejoslin]

It's still a far cry from saying there are no happy endings. And Zevran isn't short to a dwarf or to another elf; only to a human. I love the accent though; I just wish that every Antivan character didn't have a different accent. I can think of four off the top of my head that we meet, and each one . . . different. But yes, I understand he's not to everyone's taste.



You can end up with very empowered characters, though; I recently, after my umpteenth playthrough, had some amazing surprises at the end. Would I have liked to have saved the world and made it a far better place? Of course, but life itself isn't perfect, and Ferelden is a fairly dark world to begin with. You definitely don't get a nice, neat ending no matter what you do; sometimes you do end up with very unintended consequences.

[SusanStoHelit]

Oh, I couldn't agree more. Do I like this dark, twisty, labyrinthine world much better than a simple, easy, Disneyesque world? Oh yes. Big time.

But sometimes I get a little nostalgic. I think a happy medium would be doom and gloom, destruction and chaos - and a bright spot at the end, lol.

It seems, however, that I can't have my cake and eat it too.

[Edited for typo.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 02 février 2010 - 04:09 .

[TheBlackBaron]

Eh, something tells me that at the end of all things - let's say a hypothetical DA:O 3 - you'll probably be able to wrestle out an ending that is genuinely happy in a couple ways, possibly even in the ways you want. It'll just be really damn difficult, and probably rely on numerous plot flags stretching back to the current game.

[Kekse2k]

Dark endings always leave a deeper impression than happy endings, for me, at least. To think about the implications of why something happened, it really gives you a feast for thought, which is why this game is so successful with...well, a lot of people. It's not something you can easily forget. Since the franchise is moving forward (or aims to move forward), it's more exciting.

[angj57]

I really enjoyed the dark nature of the game. I think having bad things happen to good people adds an element of realism and thoughtfulness in game. In other RPGs, the good characters get happy, nice endings and the evil characters get dark, disturbing endings. Three cheers to dragon age for having a more natural, realistic approach.

[David Gaider]

SusanStoHelit wrote...
But ... the real issue here is that for most of those posting about the lack of a happy ending - they want that ending with Alistair and Morrigan. Because those are the two 'favourite' romanceable characters, insofar as I can tell, anyway.

That's my impression as well. Some people seem to want a happy ending, no strings attached and nothing unpleasant involved in achieving that happy ending, with the romance of their choice. I get the desire behind wanting it -- but as far as I'm concerned there are plenty of "happy" endings. You are a hero, ending a Blight before it even truly began, and there are romances that do continue on just fine.

Not every romance can have a happy ending? And there's no way to be completely happy with no dark clouds on the horizon? Well there you go. This is not romantic fantasy -- which is what that notion is, regardless of whether there is an actual romance involved it is still a romantic ideal. And that's part of the point. We wanted our ending to be powerful, and memorable, and while I understand perfectly that some people simply want escapism that's just not what this game is meant to deliver.

Now, that said, am I saying that every ending ever for Dragon Age must be bittersweet? (Because that's what I would call the over tone of the endings.) Not at all. Different stories will no doubt hit different notes, because we'll want to try different things. I will say, however, that we could have gone a lot darker had we wished to -- the potential is certainly there -- so I'm by no means promising happy cloud fun times from here on in.

Modifié par David Gaider, 02 février 2010 - 04:29 .