187 réponses à ce sujet

[Aislinn Shea]

Sandtigress wrote...

Actually, minus the fact that **spoiler***** I didn't think Alistair would actually leave the party over Loghain **spoiler** I've been very satisfied with the endings because they felt more realistic than a happy-go-lucky type story, of which Dragon Age has a few but not many.

My Dalish elf and I thought it was fair, though very tragic, that he had to end things with her when he became king. He was right - he needed an heir, she couldn't give him one, probably even if she had been untainted, being an elf. We both appreciated his honor in not stringing us along while he married another woman and had children with her. Doesn't mean either of us LIKED that idea, but it was realistic.

But then, tragic romance seems to be something a forte for me, so I guess that's a part of it. :-P

Don't think she could give an heir?  You have to read the prequil books and see this is not so (Dragon Age: The Calling to be precise).  I won't give spoilers, but your jaw will drop, I promise, when you find out what happened before Dragon Age. 

Dragon Age: The Stolen Throne by David Gaider (book 1)
Dragon Age: The Calling by David Gaider (book 2)

[Mistersunshine]

David Gaider wrote...
Now, that said, am I saying that every ending ever for Dragon Age must be bittersweet? (Because that's what I would call the over tone of the endings.) Not at all. Different stories will no doubt hit different notes, because we'll want to try different things. I will say, however, that we could have gone a lot darker had we wished to -- the potential is certainly there -- so I'm by no means promising happy cloud fun times from here on in.

Happy cloud fun times wouldn't feel very "Dragon Age" to me.  I like the dark, bittersweet flavor of this world and its stories.  Keep on with it, I say.

[Aislinn Shea]

And, as David Gaider said, "this is not romantic fantasy." We are at the beginning of an epic journey in a dark world struggling to find the light again. The romance is just a teaser for humanity, to get the hopes up; more of a biological necessity and not some heart felt squishy romance. This gives evil a nasty way of destroying a character as well. The focus here is the struggle, through choices, to a suitable end in which humanity survives.



Now if Bioware wants to talk story and design specks targeted at the romantic fantasy crowd, I know a few writers willing to work that idea...

[Jaulen]

*spoiler* Re Aislinn: Maric wasn't tainted, Fiona was...then wasn't.....



And as DG has posted on other threads, in the world of DAO, two GWs CAN"T have children together (barring some strange Tevinter fertility lood magic rite). Comparing Maric and Fiona to Alistair and PC is apples to oranges....



And what's wrong with the 'bittersweet' endings (great descriptions btw DG....) they are so much more interesting than "I got my prince, became queen and had kids and lived happily ever after...."

And I think the whole "no matter the choices you make, no matter how horrid the world is, and people are....the commoner hero gets his 'ride into the sunset happy ending with the princess'" is probably why I quit reading fanasty novels about 10 years ago...

[TheLion36]

David Gaider wrote...
Not every romance can have a happy ending? And there's no way to be completely happy with no dark clouds on the horizon? Well there you go. This is not romantic fantasy -- which is what that notion is, regardless of whether there is an actual romance involved it is still a romantic ideal. And that's part of the point. We wanted our ending to be powerful, and memorable, and while I understand perfectly that some people simply want escapism that's just not what this game is meant to deliver.

I loved all of the endings... I also love how some of the endings are causing massive speculation, its brilliant! 

My character romanced Morrigan and went off into the harsh world to find her even though she explicitly told him not to, which I find a very romantic ending... In my mind I can often see him walking in the mountains making his way through heavy snow storms looking for her, or I see Morrigan sitting by the fire playing with the ring feeling regret/sorrow and wondering what would have been, tempted to look for me as well but fighting those feelings at the same time...

At the same time I can also see where the original poster comes from, the feelings towards characters this game manages to deliver is unprecedented as far as I know... I mean I have drooled over female characters in games before but I've never actually had this weird crush feeling you usually only get on movie actresses/popstars that you know upfront are unreachable... This realistic feeling causes you to desire happy disney endings just like you would want in the real world if you had a crush on a girl/guy and just when you feel that unlike the real world which leaves you heartbroken because the girl you love doesn't love you back the game makes you feel like you have the power to influence its world by every decision you make, but then at the end it takes this power away from you and leaves you just as heartbroken and hurt as the real world would...

Is this a bad thing? On certain days yes, because on those days you just want to leave the real world and enter the virtual one and get the girl... On other days its perfect and you want to get teased and heartbroken and feel like the virtual world is real and lose yourself in it...

Do I hope for a happy ending for my character and Morrigan? Of course, I hope one day he'll find her, she'll curse him, shout at him, slap him for following her, but after that he'll kiss her... she'll submit and they both fall on the ground making love... Would I be dissapointed if turns out different? Probably at first and I'll probably feel hurt and all of those nasty things again, but at the same time thats what makes this game so great and I would certainly accept it and part of me might even like it that way, hell I got to make love to her at least twice (she even told me I had a ferocious apetite! *chuckles*), which is more than I can say about my other crushes and definately more than I can say about the popstar/movie actress crushes... And if I don't like losing her I just start another character and take back control by getting her to fall in love with me all over again, which you can't do in the real world! 

I used my own character and Morrigan here as an example simply because it was easiest to illustrate, but this is of course just as valid for any other relationship in the game, I'm sure a lot of girls feel the same way about their Alistair! 

In any case, great story writing and character development Bioware!  I remember seeing a videogame documentary not too long ago in which they stated videogames could never be better than a movie cause they didn't deliver emotion, well the people who said that should definately play this game!  WELL DONE! 

Modifié par TheLion36, 02 février 2010 - 09:16 .

[Behindyounow]

Its a dark fantasy! Its not supposed to have a happy ending.

[Sabriana]

My PCs are all human females, and they all go for Zevran. He's only a bit shorter than them, and while not as muscle bound as human males, he's far from unattractive in the body department. That said, personally, I'm not a member of the "my mate must be taller than me, and definitely needs to be muscle packed".

My first play-through had a happy ending, even though it came as a surprise for my human mage. I avoided all spoilers, and 3 days before the game came out, my internet conked out for more than a month. So I played my first play-through completely blind. It was wonderful, and I'm glad about it.

My human mage romanced Alistair. She had a little flirty thing going with Zevran, because he was funny, attractive to her, and he had a sensual pull. But nothing more than that, however, she must have turned the romance on for him.
She did all she could for Alistair, supported him, loved him, and made him king. Then she had to live through the humiliation to be not only dumped, but publicly dumped. It broke her heart (and mine).

However, there was Zevran, ready and willing to pick up the pieces and commence healing. She continued the romance with Zevran, and the rebound became love for both of them. In the end they went off to build up the GW together. He was loyal, supportive, and cared for her. The romance had a depth that my mage's Alistair romance never reached. Give me a loving, supportive, caring, and deep romance partner anytime. That he is a bit shorter, and not muscle packed, never mattered at all. Shallow vs deep? Give me deep anytime.

Perfect. I loved that first play-through more than anything. Suffice it to say, as an avid RPG player, I didn't expect any kind of happy ending, and was pleasantly surprised.

As for Zevran's accent, I loved it. Ignacio and Ceasare had almost the same one, but it did differ a bit. Oriana, who was supposedly from Antiva too, had no accent at all. So there is an inconsisteny here, but the Zevran accent was great.

[Vicious]

I don't like happy endings because they don't leave room for sequels.

That said, I refused the sacrifice at the end mostly because it didn't feel right to cut my character's life short like that. If the Blight got a couple games worth of build-up and then hit you with a grand finale that killed your character off, i'd be perfectly OK with bidding my hero a final goodbye, the way I did in Baldur's Gate when I let my bhaalspawn ascend to godhood and fulfill the destiny hinted since BG1.

DAO it seemed crammed several games' worth of story into one. The whole thing felt rushed and I never really felt the impact of the blight, so it didn't seem like i would be giving my hero a proper send-off. He hadn't really earned it yet.

Anyway I totally digressed.

Modifié par Vicious, 02 février 2010 - 10:19 .

[Chas1024]

I think those who want a happy ending with Morrigan are not in love with her but with what they would like her to be. To get a 'happy' ending Morrigan would have to no longer be Morrigan. To give up her independence just because she is in 'love' is not the Morrigan we have come to know and love. She is stronger than that.

[Klystron]

I wanted the option to take Morrigan's grimoires, get rid of her, do the Dark Ritual myself (with Zevran) and become an Old God...  

I've been wondering if Bioware could have made happy-fluffy-bunny endings available when you play on the Easy setting, but that would probably be very difficult to do correctly.  Oh, well. 

[TheLion36]

Chas1024 wrote...

I think those who want a happy ending with Morrigan are not in love with her but with what they would like her to be. To get a 'happy' ending Morrigan would have to no longer be Morrigan. To give up her independence just because she is in 'love' is not the Morrigan we have come to know and love. She is stronger than that.

I think this depends on your view on Morrigan...  Personally I think there's a difference between who she is and who she is trying to be. Thoughout the game you notice she struggles with certain things she took for granted for a long time. What I mean to say is that she's trying to be like Flemeth, but she isn't like her and this is visible quite a few times througout the game... I've always considered Morrigan to be putting up some sort of tough girl routine. I think Kate Mulgrew described her best when she said: "Morrigan is innocent. She is beautiful. She is vulnerable.".

And about her independance, well she claims to value it but stayed with Flemeth her whole life. If she really wanted to independant she would have left to be on her own much earlier... She is however strong (willed) enough to do whatever she must regardless of her feelings and I don't expect her to turn out as a normal housewife in DAO, but I'm sure a happy ending is possible, she expressed her desire to see the ocean and mountains, nothing stopping Morrigan and my character from traveling together as individuals who chose to travel together! 

However Morrigan and her story etc is a bit off-topic for this thread... 

[Sabriana]

My PCs are all women, so romancing Morrigan is out of the question. However, because none of them agree to the ritual, they are all hurt by Morrigan's leaving if denied. She is, after all, very good friends with all of them. It makes one wonder how much of friend Morrigan really was, or if she just had them "dancing to her tune".

They even killed Flemeth for her, because they believed her that Flemeth was a threat to her life and her soul. And I, as a player, hated doing that. I adore Kate Mulgrew.

[TheLion36]

Sabriana wrote...
It makes one wonder how much of friend Morrigan really was, or if she just had them "dancing to her tune".

She makes an interesting remark when you romanced her and you decline and after that you tell her that you love her she states: "But not enough"... I've always considered this to mean that it was extremely important to her, almost as if it is lifesaving which could explain why she leaves you if you dont agree... She makes more remarks like this during that offer conversation that might hint at that, but the whole conversation is written very well and is open for loads of interpretations...

Both her friendship and love seem to be sincere, however why she really leaves you whatever you pick is still a mystery...

I've said this on other threads before but I have faith in her and trust her, although that could be my characters undoing at a certain point! 

P.S. Yes Kate Mulgrew is quite good, she also plays Flemeth brilliantly... I've always adored Claudia Black which might explain my fascination with the Morrigan character, think she had me when she first spoke! 
And considering even Morrigan doesn't think Flemeth is truely dead, this might not be the last time we heard Kate Mulgrew in a Dragon Age game!

Modifié par TheLion36, 02 février 2010 - 12:27 .

[Sabriana]

TheLion36 wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
It makes one wonder how much of friend Morrigan really was, or if she just had them "dancing to her tune".

She makes an interesting remark when you romanced her and you decline and after that you tell her that you love her she states: "But not enough"... I've always considered this to mean that it was extremely important to her, almost as if it is lifesaving which could explain why she leaves you if you dont agree... She makes more remarks like this during that offer conversation that might hint at that, but the whole conversation is written very well and is open for loads of interpretations...

Both her friendship and love seem to be sincere, however why she really leaves you whatever you pick is still a mystery...

I've said this on other threads before but I have faith in her and trust her, although that could be my characters undoing at a certain point! 

P.S. Yes Kate Mulgrew is quite good, she also plays Flemeth brilliantly... I've always adored Claudia Black which might explain my fascination with the Morrigan character, think she had me when she first spoke! 
And considering even Morrigan doesn't think Flemeth is truely dead, this might not be the last time we heard Kate Mulgrew in a Dragon Age game!

Interesting. I have to go and find me some "Morrigan is my girl" threads and read up on what the guys have to say. My PCs were almost swayed by her telling them that she needed the baby for "freedom", but her utter refusal to go into details had them spooked.

They did believe her regarding Flemeth, especially after finding the robe with the willpower negative, but still, the essence of a god? How can my PCs be sure if they don't get a better explanation.

Good point about Flemeth though. I wonder if I should make a playthrough were my PC lets her friend Morrigan do the ritual, just to see if there is an expansion/add-on that deals with Flemeth's resurrection. Could be good RPing too, perhaps the god-baby is all that stands between Morrigan and enslavement or even death.

After all, there is no ending that specifically states that the baby has to be evil. I can very well picture a good outcome, with the grown child being all that stands between the architect and the freedom fighters of the future. I'm not taking anything for granted, especially not with the primary bioware character writers.

[TheLion36]

Sabriana wrote...
Good point about Flemeth though. I wonder if I should make a playthrough were my PC lets her friend Morrigan do the ritual, just to see if there is an expansion/add-on that deals with Flemeth's resurrection. Could be good RPing too, perhaps the god-baby is all that stands between Morrigan and enslavement or even death.

Its funny you say that because that is one of the theories I have presented on another thread. This would also give a new meaning to the sentence: "Some things in this world are worth preserving, make of that what you must."
She could mean preserving herself or perhaps preserving an old god (or both at the same time). And yes the "Freedom" statement I have also interpreted as her freedom from Flemeth.
Why she is so secretive, no clue... It is said one old god taught the Tevinter mages magic (perhaps blood magic), perhaps she was affraid you wouldn't agree.

Modifié par TheLion36, 02 février 2010 - 12:55 .

[Sabriana]

True enough, TheLion. It certainly can be interpreted that she is so secretive about it because having the baby very much hinges on her continued survival, and she is worried that an outsider (as in outside the Flemeth world) would object on the 'Tevinter magic' premise. Tevinter isn't very popular, after all.



Hmm, makes me wonder if she is so afraid of Flemeths' wrath that she absolutely doesn't want the male PC be anywhere near the danger-zone. If I understand correctly, she doesn't sever all ties, because of a ring, or somesuch.

[Chas1024]

TheLion36 wrote...
However Morrigan and her story etc is a bit off-topic for this thread... 

Not necessarily, I think what constitutes a happy ending with Morrigan hinges an your view of her. For me, if Morrigan stays because of her love of the PC when she knows she should leave then that is not a happy ending. Morrigan has betrayed herself and will come to regret it and perhaps blame you. Others who take a different view of Morrigan would probably see this as her escaping her past and finding her true self. She is such a delightfully complex character.

[Terra_Ex]

TheLion36 wrote...

Chas1024 wrote...

I think those who want a happy ending with Morrigan are not in love with her but with what they would like her to be. To get a 'happy' ending Morrigan would have to no longer be Morrigan. To give up her independence just because she is in 'love' is not the Morrigan we have come to know and love. She is stronger than that.

I think this depends on your view on Morrigan...  Personally I think there's a difference between who she is and who she is trying to be. Thoughout the game you notice she struggles with certain things she took for granted for a long time. What I mean to say is that she's trying to be like Flemeth, but she isn't like her and this is visible quite a few times througout the game... I've always considered Morrigan to be putting up some sort of tough girl routine. I think Kate Mulgrew described her best when she said: "Morrigan is innocent. She is beautiful. She is vulnerable.".

Yeah, for me this comes through quite strongly in the scene where you give her the mirror - Claudia's voicework there gives the scene additional impact as you hear her voice wavering as you tell her its a gift and you don't need anything in return, its like two different personas battling against each other.

I was fairly satisfied with most of the endings I've encountered thus far, though certain things were left unresolved and several characters could easily make a comeback. My final judgement can only come after DA2 to how certain plot threads are picked up, discarded and / or concluded as the series moves forward.

[TheLion36]

Sabriana wrote...
 If I understand correctly, she doesn't sever all ties, because of a ring, or somesuch.

If you romance her you get a ring that forms a connection between you and her, she tells you that Flemeth once said the connection worked both ways but she never tested it and certain epilogues have a mention of the ring and that you felt her through it when she was thinking of you feeling sorrow and regret, however after that the ring told no more...

Terra_Ex wrote...
Yeah, for me this comes through quite strongly in the scene where you give her the mirror - Claudia's voicework there gives the scene additional impact as you hear her voice wavering as you tell her its a gift and you don't need anything in return, its like two different personas battling against each other.

That was exactly how I felt about that scene! 

Terra_Ex wrote...
I was fairly satisfied with most of the endings I've encountered thus far, though certain things were left unresolved and several characters could easily make a comeback. My final judgement can only come after DA2 to how certain plot threads are picked up, discarded and / or concluded as the series moves forward.

Same here, even the Morrigan ending, as long as it get some sort of continuation at some point! 

Chas1024 wrote...
She is such a delightfully complex character.

That she is!  I think thats part of the fascination she arouses in people. I also love it that she brings forth discussions and speculations.

Its funny anyways with Claudia Black, most of the characters I know she played (Aeryn in Farscape / Vala Mal Doran in StarGate) are characters that are quite complex... Aeryn was raised to hate anything that was different to her and even betrayed a lover once for thinking differently when she knew he was to be executed and Vala, well she seemed to like going after power and wealth which always got her into trouble... On top of that Vala gave birth to Adria who was a child of great power for the Ori, who Vala tried very hard to turn good.

Modifié par TheLion36, 02 février 2010 - 02:21 .

[MeghanCL]

Just throwing in, I'm a female, I love Alistair, and I had no problem with my two happy endings - he rode off into the sunset with my city elf, and my noble became queen. Yippee! Actually much happier endings than I expected with such a game. Keep up the good work, Bioware

[blademaster7]

I don't see anything happy about the Morrigan ending. It is by far the worst ending a male character can get in this game. The higher you get her approval the more you will regret everything. Betrayal is worse than death as Hespith eloquently put it.

She dumps you when she has no further use for you. And she even has the nerve to ask you to convince Alistair/Loghain if you refuse to do her ritual. The whole "I love you but I should have known better not to get into this" is only adding insult to injury. I don't know why some people get so excited when they hear her say that. It was heartbreaking for me. Actions speak louder than words. A simple I love you doesn't fix anything... it makes things worse.

And if anyone chose to go after her in the ending he deserves the masochist achievement. What would you do if you find her? Bend on your knees and beg her to rebuild your relationship? A relationship that was a huge deceit in the first place? If you want answers then it's understandable but if a strong character like the Warden has a bit of dignity left he'll just give her the damn ring back and leave.

Or do you expect her to do something stupid and come back begging you for help? Are you going to be happy after hearing her say she doesn't want to see you again? Didn't she use you enough? No matter how many times you kill Flemeth for her she won't be salvaged. Morrigan's worst enemy is herself.

/rant

Modifié par blademaster7, 02 février 2010 - 02:25 .

[_Aine_]

Bittersweet is the *perfect* word for the endings. Well, for the story/game in general probably as well.



In terms of the romances, depending on what side of the fence you are sitting on ( or maybe which fence you are sitting on in my case as each playthrough seems to be changing my opinion of one character or another) I think it all depends on how you view the character as to what you think their motivations are. Morrigan/Alistair/Zev haters will never see their actions in a positive spin. Those enraptured with them will ponder their virtual psyche's enough to try to figure them out or figure an out



To me, that is a sign of either a well fleshed out character, or a character with enough bones that they happily let our own minds do the fleshing out to create yet another layer of story.



I have 2 current playthroughs with flirtation on one of them but where she has set her mind against love/romance. She is a Grey Warden. Period. She feels sex can be found and enjoyed without the whole package of love and roses. Those characters also will likely ( I say likely because some of my characters get a mind of their own near the end and go their own way! lol) be upset if Alistair does want to be King because she thinks his promise to the wardens negates all other honor-bound duty. I have tried at least 6 times to get the Queen happy ending and in the end, for each of the characters that made it that far in that direction, it just doesn't feel like it would be her decision. So, I have never actually been Queen. I have seen Anora's dress and I just don't think it would do my body justice anyway



Bittersweet beats happy cloud fun or whatever Dave Gaider called it, anyday!

[TheLion36]

blademaster7 wrote...
Or do you expect her to do something stupid and come back begging you for help? Are you going to be happy after hearing her say she doesn't want to see you again? Didn't she use you enough? No matter how many times you kill Flemeth for her she won't be salvaged. Morrigan's worst enemy is herself.

I don't think she ever said she didn't WANT to see you again, she just states that this is how it must be, which could mean anything. She also states in one dialog option that she is very tempted to stay but that she can't.

I made the choice to go after her to fight for her love.. Most romantic movies and romantic comedies end with the girl leaving the guy for some reason after which the guy runs after the girl to fight for her... (I'm a sucker for a good romantic comedy)...

You say she uses you, but she also saves you by doing the ritual with you... However I understand your point of view as well and you might be right that shes uses you and planned this from the start... I however am of a different opinion but thats just that an opinon! 

Modifié par TheLion36, 02 février 2010 - 02:43 .

[blademaster7]

TheLion36 wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...
Or do you expect her to do something stupid and come back begging you for help? Are you going to be happy after hearing her say she doesn't want to see you again? Didn't she use you enough? No matter how many times you kill Flemeth for her she won't be salvaged. Morrigan's worst enemy is herself.

I don't think she ever said she didn't WANT to see you again, she just states that this is how it must be, which could mean anything. She also states in one dialog option that she is very tempted to stay but that she can't.

I made the choice to go after her to fight for her love.. Most romantic movies and romantic comedies end with the girl leaving the guy for some reason after which the guy runs after the girl to fight for her... (I'm a sucker for a good romantic comedy)...

You say she uses you, but she also saves you by doing the ritual with you... However I understand your point of view as well and you might be right that shes uses you and planned this from the start... I however am of a different opinion but thats just that an opinon! 

I perfectly understand your point of view. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I hate Morrigan or something but the way it ended... I just can't get my character to go after her. Even if we get a chance in a future expansion that gives you the choice to be with her, I think I might turn it down. If she ends up a loving  mother using the child for good then it would be a pleasant surprise, but still, I can't justify a reason for my character to forgive her. There is a thing called dignity.

And while she indeed saves your life, she kinda makes it like a deal. In return she want's you to let her walk away and you never follow. If that's not a "I don't want to see you again" statement I don't know what is. Not to mention she tells you almost nothing about her plans.

[Sarielle]

Totally had the opposite reaction...I was extremely pleased there were various levels of unhappy endings.