187 réponses à ce sujet

[SurelyForth]

Sarielle wrote...

Totally had the opposite reaction...I was extremely pleased there were various levels of unhappy endings.

That's how I feel, too.  I actually revelled in giving one of my characters (and one I liked) the worst ending I could imagine: romancing Alistair (who she adored), marrying him off to Anora (who she hated) in order to spare Loghain (who she hated even more), convincing Loghain to do the ritual (which was hella awkward and sort of punished Morrigan, who she liked) and then staying with the Grey Wardens and Loghain (who she still hated).

She did get one positive- Leliana, who was basically a consolation prize after she inadvertantly friend-zoned Zevran (who would have been a consolation prize after losing Alistair). So she even settled there and it was awesome.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 02 février 2010 - 04:03 .

[Zwomann]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...
But ... the real issue here is that for most of those posting about the lack of a happy ending - they want that ending with Alistair and Morrigan. Because those are the two 'favourite' romanceable characters, insofar as I can tell, anyway.

That's my impression as well. Some people seem to want a happy ending, no strings attached and nothing unpleasant involved in achieving that happy ending, with the romance of their choice. I get the desire behind wanting it -- but as far as I'm concerned there are plenty of "happy" endings. You are a hero, ending a Blight before it even truly began, and there are romances that do continue on just fine.

Not every romance can have a happy ending? And there's no way to be completely happy with no dark clouds on the horizon? Well there you go. This is not romantic fantasy -- which is what that notion is, regardless of whether there is an actual romance involved it is still a romantic ideal. And that's part of the point. We wanted our ending to be powerful, and memorable, and while I understand perfectly that some people simply want escapism that's just not what this game is meant to deliver.

Now, that said, am I saying that every ending ever for Dragon Age must be bittersweet? (Because that's what I would call the over tone of the endings.) Not at all. Different stories will no doubt hit different notes, because we'll want to try different things. I will say, however, that we could have gone a lot darker had we wished to -- the potential is certainly there -- so I'm by no means promising happy cloud fun times from here on in.

Thank you for your response, David. I appreciate all that. And as I said, I appreciate the endings, too. I'm not even particularly unhappy with my own endings, despite all appearances.

But I was trying to articulate why some people weren't happy. Because it seemed to me that their opinions have sometimes been dismissed out of hand without really being addressed. And some of the 'we like dark gloomy endings' people hadn't really explained why this was so.

I suppose I just couldn't resist the urge to - encourage debate, shall we say?

Seriously.

I couldn't agree 100% more.

Everyone here gets the idea it's a dark fantasy, but there's nothing wrong with wishing or hoping for a 'nice' ending. It won't detract from any of the other endings anymore just be exsisting, but I'm sure someone will probably argue that too.  What's really lame is how some people actually have some valid points, only to be met with "Well this is how it, STFU or GTFO," to paraphrase a few posts. I mean what the heck?

The only thing more absurd than that is how some players still try to justify their own play through is more cannon than other people's.

This is exactly it! I have no problem with all the endings, but would it hurt to have just one more in the multitude of them all for the Disneyland one? If that is not your cup of tea - then don't end your game like that... I have enough disappointment in life, and I like this little playground of a world with magic and might, romance and delights that I get to control ... lol

It may have not been DEVELOPED for escapism, but it is that for many. Adding the romance may have just been to make the characters more realistic, but making them so bloody adorable makes you care. I even think Morrigan is adorable with her shrewness! lol    Anyway, if the purpose is took make a game many will love and rave over, one more ending that is truly happy to appease a group of people isn't so bad in the scheme of things, but what the heck do I know.. lol... I am not truly a gamer anyway, just a middle-age married woman who likes heros, dragons and the epic quest.    :-)

This is all your fault, Bioware, for doing such a damn good job in character development.

[Relband]

Happy endings are good, on a certain day. Sometimes you want a happy ending from a game, especially when IRL things are not going as they should be.

Having said that, the DA:O endings, while definitely not in the happy department, are the more real and memorable because of that. I have just finished a playthrough with a female elf who was deeply in love in Alistair and hoped to stay with him, even just as a lover (the future wife beings just another responsibility of the monarch and all that). When he rejected her out of duty, it was so unexpected the only way out I could realistically see for her is to take the final blow and sacrifice herself - she was heartbroken and she believed there was nothing left for her. This was utterly unexpected for me, as I hoped to carry this character over to DA:A, but I am certain the ending wouldn't have affected me so deeply had it gone as planned.

Which is to say, not-so-happy endings are unfortunately way more realistic and are best proof that this game is anything but ordinary.

Modifié par Relband, 02 février 2010 - 04:09 .

[Monica21]

Sabriana wrote...

My PCs are all women, so romancing Morrigan is out of the question. However, because none of them agree to the ritual, they are all hurt by Morrigan's leaving if denied. She is, after all, very good friends with all of them. It makes one wonder how much of friend Morrigan really was, or if she just had them "dancing to her tune".
They even killed Flemeth for her, because they believed her that Flemeth was a threat to her life and her soul. And I, as a player, hated doing that. I adore Kate Mulgrew.

Just throwing in my two coppers; I think Morrigan is one of the single most interesting and layered characters. I'm playing my third female character and none of them have been able to dislike Morrigan. I think the conversation she has with the PC is actually her hardening herself. She doesn't stray from the truth except when she needs to and can be so blunt as to appear indifferent (I'm thinking of her comment to Kaitlyn about her missing little brother).

In the conversation about the ritual, she is separating whatever it is she wants from her friendship with the PC. She tells the PC exactly what needs to be done to save her life. And yes it's blunt, but I also believe that if she'd come across as warmer and friendlier then you wouldn't have thought you were talking to Morrigan. I believe that she wants the Old God baby, but I also believe that she never expected to be friends with the PC and truly didn't want her to die.

If you accept the ritual, you do get an interesting dialogue option with Morrigan at the gate. Her reaction convinced me that she does have your best interest at heart, even if they conflict with her own desires.

[Lady Orc]

I adore this game, and have no problem at all with the endings. I haven't seen them all yet, but have thoroughly spoilt myself, and I want to experience them all eventually. I also do see the potential for many different forms of happiness in them, for different kinds of PC:s.

What I do have a problem with is the people who see fit to make insulting remarks towards those who long for a 'happy ending'. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's not a reason to try to put them down.

Modifié par Lady Orc, 02 février 2010 - 04:40 .

[TheLion36]

Zwomann wrote...
It may have not been DEVELOPED for escapism, but it is that for many. Adding the romance may have just been to make the characters more realistic, but making them so bloody adorable makes you care. I even think Morrigan is adorable with her shrewness! lol    Anyway, if the purpose is took make a game many will love and rave over, one more ending that is truly happy to appease a group of people isn't so bad in the scheme of things, but what the heck do I know.. lol... I am not truly a gamer anyway, just a middle-age married woman who likes heros, dragons and the epic quest.    :-)

I think every form of entertainment is a form of escapism in one form or another, you don't read a book because you want to think about the problems in your life, but to forget them.

You make a good point about just adding a happy ending in for the people who want it and have darker endings for the people who love those, if you don't like happy endings then you can take the path of the darker one... The players choices affect the world afterall!

The "downside" to this game is that unless you take the ultimate sacrifice route you don't really have an ending yet. Its like with the Lord of the Rings books, at the end of the first book there was no happy or sad ending, there just was an intermission if you will and it took until the next book to continue the story and the actual ending didn't come until the last book.
Your point still stands however that the possibility of a happy ending for every character amongst a pile of unhappy ones for the people who prefer that would be a good solution, but I guess the happy endings would have to wait until the game at the end of the line.

I at least think its a good idea, but I can imagine some people might think that allowing people to make this type of choices causes the stories to differ too much and I can also imagine this being hard to do for certain characters, say Leilana goes crazy and slays every human being in the world that does not heed the makers words, it might be hard for the writers to write in a bad and a happy ending...
 

Monica21 wrote...
I think the conversation she has with the PC is actually her hardening herself.

Interesting view, I've never really looked at it quite like that before... Always just figured she was trying to hide her feelings but yo u could be right... If you romance her and pick the option to ask her if she was just "friendly" to you because of this she states that this wasn't the case in a sad and loving voice and ends by regaining herself and saying: "Don't cloud the issue"... So you could be right.

Modifié par TheLion36, 02 février 2010 - 06:05 .

[ejoslin]

I think Morrigan is the only romance partner which doesn't have the potential for a happy romance ending. Now, with one you can have it all (Zevran) and with one you have to compromise (Alistair) and with one I am not sure but you can probably have it all (Leliana). Your happy ending may not be the one you initially chose as you played through and made decisions, but your happy ending can be there if you try to stop bending the world to you and instead live within the world.

[Raphael diSanto]

I'll admit, I'd like to have seen more happy endings - Or even more endings that simply could have comprised the things I wanted to happen.



Why can't my female human noble say to Alistair after the talk with Riordan "Honey, look, I'm gonna throw Loghain to the Archdemon and you and I will rule together. We should kill that **** Anora and it'll be great" ..



People say that because the endings are "realistic" it makes them more memorable, but really that's just an opinion. To me, an ending where everything happened that I, the player, wanted (which may or not may have been what my character wanted, haha) is the memorable ending.



I want to feel like I truly -can- shape this world by my decisions and make the outcomes happen that I want to happen.



So yeah, a few more ending options would not have gone amiss, I think. I mean, if you want to be all depressing and "realistic" then sure, let's have some more of those where everyone dies and it's all all morbid and dark and "serious".



But in my fiction, I like endings to be happy. Life is full enough of non-happy endings.

[Raphael diSanto]

Monica21 wrote...

Just throwing in my two coppers; I think Morrigan is one of the single most interesting and layered characters. I'm playing my third female character and none of them have been able to dislike Morrigan.

Interesting. I haven't played a character yet who's truly been able to like Morrigan. She's abrasive, confrontational. blunt, disreprectful and self-serving and none of my characters like her. Even the ones who -are- pretty self-serving don't actually "like" her.

[nYshak]

Nice discussion. In case the OP has not seen this yet she might take a look at it:

http://gameinformer....an-opinion.aspx

Its a blog about why the Morrigan Ending should not be seen as disappointing - even for male PCs who romanced her. While I don`t agree with all the authors assumptions its a good read.

BTT:

One thing to remember about good vs. bad ending is this: if you want to keep it realistic (and I believe this is Bios goal) there has to be a balance. Life is hard sometimes, yes, but if reality would be cruel day in and day out most of us would not find the time to play a game like this in the first place. If there is no light, who's to say what darkness is? If you want to create a dark ending that has meaning, you need a good ending with meaning too. If all the possible outcomes are about how you die in gruesome ways, your relationships break up, your betrayed and disposed of - well, then none of it has meaning. It would be all the same. Hence my argument that those of us who would like to see the relationship with Morrigan continue be granted the chance to do so in a future sequel.

[Sabriana]

My female PCs all liked Morrigan. I have to make one of them agree to the ritual and see the scene at the gates, but it's such a loaded situation, with having a god-baby and all. She needn't come across as warm and such, but a bit of an explanation would be good. I'll see if the 'gate conversation' enlightens me.

She displays honesty and true feelings a lot of times. For example, I find the scene where she asks my PC about her relationship with her mother, and when my PC answers "I love her, what else is there to say." the look in Morrigan's face all but breaks my heart.

[Raphael diSanto]

Sabriana wrote...

My female PCs all liked Morrigan. I have to make one of them agree to the ritual and see the scene at the gates, but it's such a loaded situation, with having a god-baby and all. She needn't come across as warm and such, but a bit of an explanation would be good. I'll see if the 'gate conversation' enlightens me.
She displays honesty and true feelings a lot of times. For example, I find the scene where she asks my PC about her relationship with her mother, and when my PC answers "I love her, what else is there to say." the look in Morrigan's face all but breaks my heart.

I've never taken that conversation option, LOL....

Course, my three main characters are human noble, so when asked about my mother, my immediate response is "Yeah. She got murdered and I had to leave her to die. You wanna pour some lemon juice on that wound and rub some salt in it while you're at it?"

But mostly, it's Morrigan's abrasiveness that's just plain annoying. She's simply incapable of being polite and civil and friendly. I read a thread on here where someone was claiming that it was obvious that she was meant to be the romance for the male lead, having her own hair, and clothes, and being voiced by one of the best in the business, but I think I'd rather claw my own eyes out than romance Morrigan.

A hardened Leliana is just so much more fun. Lighthearted, caring, funny, witty, and willing to hop in the sack for a threesome. What more can you want?

[DPSSOC]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

Course, my three main characters are human noble, so when asked about my mother, my immediate response is "Yeah. She got murdered and I had to leave her to die. You wanna pour some lemon juice on that wound and rub some salt in it while you're at it?"

Well in her defense she doesn't know that.  Alistair gave me the distinct impression that he'd been informed of my family situation and simply forgot in his own grief, self centered perhaps but understandable.

Raphael diSanto wrote...

A hardened Leliana is just so much more fun. Lighthearted, caring, funny, witty, and willing to hop in the sack for a threesome. What more can you want?

The ability to rain various flavours of magical death upon my enemies?

[Zwomann]

Well, I guess all I have to say is I have considerable time invested in my HNF character and I like her and Alistair is awesome... and I hope they have a future in the new DLC. I will still think the game is great if they don't, but I honestly can say I won't truly love it as much. I prob won't be as attached once I finish my first time through and move on to another hero... but those are my feelings... such as they are.

[Monica21]

Sabriana wrote...

My female PCs all liked Morrigan. I have to make one of them agree to the ritual and see the scene at the gates, but it's such a loaded situation, with having a god-baby and all. She needn't come across as warm and such, but a bit of an explanation would be good. I'll see if the 'gate conversation' enlightens me.

To be honest it's not much of a conversation, but I get the distinct impression that if the PC truly believes that she lied by omission but also believes that Morrigan became a somewhat unwilling friend and offered the ritual as much to get the god baby as to keep the PC alive, that Morrigan is actually saddened by what she asked. Of course, everyone has their own interpretation.

[Sandtigress]

DPSSOC wrote...

Raphael diSanto wrote...

Course, my three main characters are human noble, so when asked about my mother, my immediate response is "Yeah. She got murdered and I had to leave her to die. You wanna pour some lemon juice on that wound and rub some salt in it while you're at it?"

Well in her defense she doesn't know that.  Alistair gave me the distinct impression that he'd been informed of my family situation and simply forgot in his own grief, self centered perhaps but understandable.

Actually, when Alistair asks if you've lost anyone close to you, you can tell him that your entire family was murdered, and he responds along the lines of "Of course...how could I be so stupid as to forget that?  I am so sorry."  Its all in the voice acting, of course, but he does sound sincerely remorseful for you and sorry that he was being a little insensitive.  As for him forgetting, he's known you a total of a few days, and when Duncan told him about your situation, it was likely before he had even met you.  Its easy not to put two and two together right away.

[Stonetwister]

I couldn't agree more with the original poster. When you put as much time and effort in to playing these games and getting to the end, I think there should always be a happy ending option. It is such a disappointment to find out no matter what you do the main character dies, or your love interest dies, or he/she leaves you forever. I don't know why anyone who makes a game for people to enjoy would put a horrible or disappointing ending in there to make them feel crappy.

I for one sign the petition of always a happy ending option if you do everything right.

[Terra_Ex]

blademaster7 wrote...

TheLion36 wrote...

blademaster7 wrote...
Or do you expect her to do something stupid and come back begging you for help? Are you going to be happy after hearing her say she doesn't want to see you again? Didn't she use you enough? No matter how many times you kill Flemeth for her she won't be salvaged. Morrigan's worst enemy is herself.

I don't think she ever said she didn't WANT to see you again, she just states that this is how it must be, which could mean anything. She also states in one dialog option that she is very tempted to stay but that she can't.

I made the choice to go after her to fight for her love.. Most romantic movies and romantic comedies end with the girl leaving the guy for some reason after which the guy runs after the girl to fight for her... (I'm a sucker for a good romantic comedy)...

You say she uses you, but she also saves you by doing the ritual with you... However I understand your point of view as well and you might be right that shes uses you and planned this from the start... I however am of a different opinion but thats just that an opinon! 

I perfectly understand your point of view. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I hate Morrigan or something but the way it ended... I just can't get my character to go after her. Even if we get a chance in a future expansion that gives you the choice to be with her, I think I might turn it down. If she ends up a loving  mother using the child for good then it would be a pleasant surprise, but still, I can't justify a reason for my character to forgive her. There is a thing called dignity.

Looking at Morrigan in the context of DA:O as a game Morrigan violates what should be a key design philosophy - rewarding the player. The Morrigan romance is, in all ways an uphill struggle, dealing with a highly complex character requires a particular degree of maturity and investment within the game world by the player. Many
write her off without delving deeper, others see elements of themselves in her and find something they can relate to. People in life put up barriers against the world and use a variety of defense mechanisms to protect themself from those who would do them harm.

But getting back to the topic at hand - actively punishing the player for taking this course of action is a bizarre thing to do, and as stated across the net, if it's not picked up/continued in DA2 it'll leave a bitter taste. In fact, it reminds me slightly of a paradigm in BG2. The player spends the first half of the game attempting to rescue childhood friend Imoen, who upon being rescued never says a word for the rest of the game. Been a long time since I messed about with BG2 so it may have been an issue with the unpatched game, but it is a good example of the player overcoming a series of hurdles to get essentially zero reward.

And while she indeed saves your life, she kinda makes it like a deal. In return she want's you to let her walk away and you never follow. If that's not a "I don't want to see you again" statement I don't know what is. Not to mention she tells you almost nothing about her plans.

To me, this primarily builds intrigue - the Morrigan / Flemeth scenario is almost  certainly part of some major plotline in the future of the series. Some of the first lines Flemeth says upon meeting the Warden are almost seer-like in nature, able to completely discount the two useless Warden candidates and focus directly on the PC. There's clearly a lot more to her than meets the eye, and Morrigan and Flemeth both seem to be cogs in a much greater machine.

*I'm hoping to get through a day where I don't mention Morrigan in any of these threads- it's gonna look like I'm obsessed.*

Modifié par Terra_Ex, 02 février 2010 - 09:46 .

[Senliati]

Yeah, I admit I was pretty bummed that there was no way to keep Morrigan (though you can look for her), though I knew that was coming, and my city elf rogue is pretty realistic. And her loving-the-PC-despite-herself was touching. I am playing my noble warrior right now, doomed to an equally noble death.  I do wish there were some continuity with Awakenings, such as having Leliana with you if she stayed with you in Origins (instead of the stupid plot device of "get rid of past romance option to make room for a new one). I guess we will see! LOVING this game. I do like the darker, more realistic take on things.

[Zwomann]

Stonetwister wrote...

I couldn't agree more with the original poster. When you put as much time and effort in to playing these games and getting to the end, I think there should always be a happy ending option. It is such a disappointment to find out no matter what you do the main character dies, or your love interest dies, or he/she leaves you forever. I don't know why anyone who makes a game for people to enjoy would put a horrible or disappointing ending in there to make them feel crappy.
I for one sign the petition of always a happy ending option if you do everything right.

Thank goodness... at least one person agrees... lol 

[ejoslin]

I still don't think it's a bad thing for the happily-ever-after endings to not be available for all characters. Just like I've seen complaints that Alistair isn't a male romance option -- just because people are interested in it doesn't mean it should be there (oh gah, I know I'm going to get some wrath for THAT example).

[Relband]

There are happy endings, just not for all the possible combinations of main characters and campaign outcomes. This makes sense, even if people - myself occasionally included - would like something to turn out differently from time to time.

[FierachEredasSoulchiou]

You worked hard for whatever ending you get.



Simple as that, in my opinion.

[SusanStoHelit]

ejoslin wrote...

I still don't think it's a bad thing for the happily-ever-after endings to not be available for all characters. Just like I've seen complaints that Alistair isn't a male romance option -- just because people are interested in it doesn't mean it should be there (oh gah, I know I'm going to get some wrath for THAT example).

I can agree with that. But the problem is that if you only like one of the male options, as an example, and just don't want to romance the other, or do romance them but don't really give a sh*t how it ends, you're being punished for liking the other character better. If I can only have one happy ending - I might want it to be with Alistair, not Zevran.

Now, I acknowledge that it isn't possible for Bioware to include a happy ending for all characters. And, in fact, I'd rather they didn't. Some should be tragic, some bittersweet, some happy. The difficulty lies in who you get them with. And let's face it - of all the npcs who can be romanced, the one who most wants and needs a happy ending is Alistair. And the kind of player who is attracted to Alistair (sweet, goofy, naive, innocent, etc, etc) is more likely to be the kind of player who wants a happy ending. Alistair is the classic fairy tale knight in shining armour. So if there was going to be a happy ending, he's the perfect candidate for it.

And you can (sort of) get that. The problem is that you can only get it if you roll a HNF. And while many of the guys seem to prefer rolling humans - I've gotten the impression in these kinds of games that most females prefer to roll female elves.

So the romantics - who like Alistair as a romance, and who like to play a female elf (not human), and who want happy endings - are basically doomed. While those who prefer more 'real' or 'gritty' or whatever relationships, who aren't romantics, can actually get a happy ending.

Edit: Darn, I'm not sure I'm being clear here, oh well. *sigh* There's way too much blood in my caffeine system atm.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 02 février 2010 - 11:45 .