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[Gold Dragon]

Define: Happy Ending, and I'll tell you if I was satisfied.

[ejoslin]

But you CAN have the happy ending with Alistair, but you may have to make other compromises. And it makes sense. King Alistair has other duties and obligations, and you are the one who decides that they're more important, while Grey Warden Alistair and Zevran don't have the same ties and obligations. And even King Alistair can be told to follow his heart, even if that goes against what he feels is the right thing to do in this circumstance. YES, with Alistair there are compromises, but you should have known there would be as soon as you learned he was the heir to the throne.

[Nonvita]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I can agree with that. But the problem is that if you only like one of the male options, as an example, and just don't want to romance the other, or do romance them but don't really give a sh*t how it ends, you're being punished for liking the other character better. If I can only have one happy ending - I might want it to be with Alistair, not Zevran.

Now, I acknowledge that it isn't possible for Bioware to include a happy ending for all characters. And, in fact, I'd rather they didn't. Some should be tragic, some bittersweet, some happy. The difficulty lies in who you get them with. And let's face it - of all the npcs who can be romanced, the one who most wants and needs a happy ending is Alistair. And the kind of player who is attracted to Alistair (sweet, goofy, naive, innocent, etc, etc) is more likely to be the kind of player who wants a happy ending. Alistair is the classic fairy tale knight in shining armour. So if there was going to be a happy ending, he's the perfect candidate for it.

And you can (sort of) get that. The problem is that you can only get it if you roll a HNF. And while many of the guys seem to prefer rolling humans - I've gotten the impression in these kinds of games that most females prefer to roll female elves.

So the romantics - who like Alistair as a romance, and who like to play a female elf (not human), and who want happy endings - are basically doomed. While those who prefer more 'real' or 'gritty' or whatever relationships, who aren't romantics, can actually get a happy ending.

Edit: Darn, I'm not sure I'm being clear here, oh well. *sigh* There's way too much blood in my caffeine system atm.

Nope, you can get a happy ending with him as a non-HNF just by making Anora Queen. So it is there, it just involves seeing the big picture a little differently and realizing you don't have to make him King. Heck, he may even be happier not becoming King, so it's really not such a bad thing. You can also become his mistress if you make him King, which, while not ideal, allows you to remain with him.

Decent endings are pretty much there if you look for them. It's just that sometimes they involve going against what seems to be expected of you. I do think that guys have much more right to complain, as Morrigan is the only character with truly NO happy ending. With Alistair there are several ways.

But regardless of that, I find it silly that most of the complaining girls do about the Alistair endings is how much it sucks for them. Alistair's the real one who gets the short end of the stick- he's been pretty much destined to a life he never really wanted, and he gets to live out whatever existence everyone else makes for him. Oftentimes it is something he has no interest in, but feels it is his duty to do. So I really don't see the endings as that cruel to the PC.

Modifié par Nonvita, 03 février 2010 - 12:08 .

[Addai]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

So the romantics - who like Alistair as a romance, and who like to play a female elf (not human), and who want happy endings - are basically doomed. While those who prefer more 'real' or 'gritty' or whatever relationships, who aren't romantics, can actually get a happy ending.

I may have missed where you said putting Anora on the throne is not a happy ending?  Personally I thought it would be a happy ending, my character having him all to herself and running around restoring the Grey Wardens, but I hated so much seeing Alistair disclaim the throne for himself and his heirs that I haven't done it since.  However, I still found other Alistair endings romantic and beautiful, despite having to marry him off or whatever.  This is why it's dark fantasy and not chirpy.  I don't like chirpy.

[Sandtigress]

Nonvita wrote...

But regardless of that, I find it silly that most of the complaining girls do about the Alistair endings is how much it sucks for them. Alistair's the real one who gets the short end of the stick- he's been pretty much destined to a life he never really wanted, and he gets to live out whatever existence everyone else makes for him. Oftentimes it is something he has no interest in, but feels it is his duty to do. So I really don't see the endings as that cruel to the PC.

This, exactly, for me.  My girls always had the opportunity to go and sacrifice themselves gloriously for Ferelden or whatever, but I've always felt sorry for Alistair.  He's the one who never seems to get a happy ending - I think his happiest ending is to marry HNF that he loves and eventually have an heir, but given the taint, who knows if that will happen and so even that ending is dubiously happy.

[Addai]

Stonetwister wrote...

I couldn't agree more with the original poster. When you put as much time and effort in to playing these games and getting to the end, I think there should always be a happy ending option. It is such a disappointment to find out no matter what you do the main character dies, or your love interest dies, or he/she leaves you forever. I don't know why anyone who makes a game for people to enjoy would put a horrible or disappointing ending in there to make them feel crappy.
I for one sign the petition of always a happy ending option if you do everything right.

Sign me up on the petition that says not having a truly happy, consequence-free, deus ex machina, Hollywood syrupy ending handed to you on a platter makes it a more complex story and that that is a good thing.

[TheBlackBaron]

Raphael diSanto wrote...
A hardened Leliana is just so much more fun. Lighthearted, caring, funny, witty, and willing to hop in the sack for a threesome. What more can you want?

Somebody who doesn't regale me with stories of how she slept with men in order to get them into a state where they would be ill-equipped to resist her assasinating them?

[SusanStoHelit]

I think all the endings have various levels of happiness or achievement in them. But what the OP, and some other people I've seen mention, is at least one completely happy ending. Not necessarily, from what I can tell, all happy endings, just one amidst a range of darker, more bittersweet endings.



I was using Alistair as an example, because he's just exactly the kind of character that those who want a 'sweet' ending would go for. Now that means I can only get a sweet ending if I'm a HNF (even then, the taint and the heir problem mean it's not that sweet). The others simply can't. They can get a bittersweet ending at best. Mistress not wife if Alistair is king. Riding off into the sunset with Al is also bittersweet, especially if you're an elf - because it dooms Ferelden to being ruled by Anora, whom I hate with a passion, and it screws the elves.



Now, I personally am going for the widest range of possible endings. I neither want nor need happy, non-bittersweet endings all the time.



But some people feel they've been left out in the cold. And they're entitled to feel that way and express those feelings, in my book. And to constantly be told that you can have a happy ending - but only if you do it this way and only with this person and only if you pay this price - must seem incredibly unsympathetic to them. In fact, what they're really being told is that they can't have a happy ending. Because if you don't like Zevran (or whatever) then getting permanently stuck with him as the only choice in romance is not a 'happy' ending.

[ejoslin]

I suppose this is the difference between the definition of "happy ending" and "the ending you want." There are the happy endings out there. Whether they're the happy endings you want are a different thing. I have to admit I have done *mumbleteen* play throughs with variations on a happy ending, with only a few being tragic. Most involve compromise, though. Wynne tells you straight out that as a Grey Warden you will never live a normal life. My characters try to find the absolute best they can with what they're given. And they're usually given an awful lot.

[Sarielle]

To me, staying Alistair's mistress as an elf is the only thing they could realistically do if you make him king -- particularly considering how the world views the elf in general. Same with a mage.



I would definitely have been scratching my head if anyone OTHER than a high-born woman would have been accepted as Alistair's queen -- other than Anora of course, who already had become queen and was daughter of a famous, famous hero.

[SusanStoHelit]

Sarielle wrote...

To me, staying Alistair's mistress as an elf is the only thing they could realistically do if you make him king -- particularly considering how the world views the elf in general. Same with a mage.

I would definitely have been scratching my head if anyone OTHER than a high-born woman would have been accepted as Alistair's queen -- other than Anora of course, who already had become queen and was daughter of a famous, famous hero.

But she's only the daughter of a famous, famous hero. You are a famous, famous hero. (Sorry, but I couldn't resist that.)

[Sarielle]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

To me, staying Alistair's mistress as an elf is the only thing they could realistically do if you make him king -- particularly considering how the world views the elf in general. Same with a mage.

I would definitely have been scratching my head if anyone OTHER than a high-born woman would have been accepted as Alistair's queen -- other than Anora of course, who already had become queen and was daughter of a famous, famous hero.

But she's only the daughter of a famous, famous hero. You are a famous, famous hero. (Sorry, but I couldn't resist that.)

True, but that hero was also the king's best friend. And had already been arranged long before the PC gets ont he scene.

...she's also human.

[SusanStoHelit]

Sarielle wrote...

True, but that hero was also the king's best friend. And had already been arranged long before the PC gets ont he scene.

...she's also human.

But if you make Alistair king, you're the king's best friend too (or I am, anyway).  Non-human is the real problem - or being a mage, because you can have a human mage - and that's still a no go zone.

[Sarielle]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

True, but that hero was also the king's best friend. And had already been arranged long before the PC gets ont he scene.

...she's also human.

But if you make Alistair king, you're the king's best friend too (or I am, anyway).  Non-human is the real problem - or being a mage, because you can have a human mage - and that's still a no go zone.

I agree that being non-human or mage (a mage heir to the throne, oh the complications! ) is the bigger issue.

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

True, but that hero was also the king's best friend. And had already been arranged long before the PC gets ont he scene.

...she's also human.

But if you make Alistair king, you're the king's best friend too (or I am, anyway).  Non-human is the real problem - or being a mage, because you can have a human mage - and that's still a no go zone.

Mages not being acceptable is understandable. A lot of the population fears mages and holds them (as a group) responsible for the blight. Not only that, but the possibility that an heir (perhaps the only heir) might turn out to be a mage and have to be sent to the tower makes the idea even worse as far as the nobility would be concerned.

One does wonder what would happen if there was a human commoner PC available. Anora was a commoner. The PC probably wouldn't be acceptable at the time of landsmeet though, not a hero yet.... The situation is a lot murkier there, though. It might have been interesting if that was a scenario based on an extra high level of cunning, or something like that. Or maybe an in game trigger based on the results of a specific set of actions/dialogues.

Human commoner would be the only origin where there could conceivably be a possibility of being either consort or mistress.

Modifié par errant_knight, 03 février 2010 - 01:17 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Well, my elven mage is romancing Zevran - so that won't be a problem for her.

Recipe for happy, fairy-tale endings (sort of, but not really):

1. decide what kind of character you want to roll (gender, race, class, origin)

2. now look at the available romances and go, well I can't have him or her because ... (no Alistair, unless you're HNF, or unless you can bear to put Anora on the throne; no Morrigan, period). That's it basically, because Zev and Leliana are allowed to have happy endings regardless of gender or race or origin.

3. choose the romance option that will allow you to have a 'happy' ending, even if you don't like that character.

[Edited for clarity.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 03 février 2010 - 01:23 .

[Sarielle]

SusanStoHelit wrote...
2. now look at the available romances and go, well I can't have him or her because ... (no Alistair, unless you're HNF, or unless you can bear to put Anora on the throne

Heh, my HFN actually didn't put him on the throne. He didn't want it (the "hardening" line would have been out of character for her), and she didn't even want to lead at her father's castle in his absence (origin) -- she's definitely not an alpha personality -- so she sure as hell wouldn't want to be queen.

While she didn't like Anora personally, it did seem as though she'd been ruling the country mostly anyhow under Cailan. I'm not sure if my HFN would have done things differently if I had already done Return to Ostagar or not.


To me, it's also more fun to create your character and see where it takes you than try to "plan out" your happy endings. Although, realistically, you can see the unhappy ones coming, to a degree. If your character can use their common sense.

[SusanStoHelit]

Sarielle wrote...

To me, it's also more fun to create your character and see where it takes you than try to "plan out" your happy endings. Although, realistically, you can see the unhappy ones coming, to a degree. If your character can use their common sense.

Not  for me - though I don't actually plan happy endings. In any game worth replaying, I want to experience every possible variation and ending or twist within the bounds of what I find fun, anyway. So I have to plan ahead. I have at least one character from every origin. Both genders. I'm doing all the romances. Getting all the endings. And most of the major variations as well.

What can I say? I'm a completionist.

[Demx]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

So the romantics - who like Alistair as a romance, and who like to play a female elf (not human), and who want happy endings - are basically doomed. While those who prefer more 'real' or 'gritty' or whatever relationships, who aren't romantics, can actually get a happy ending.

Edit: Darn, I'm not sure I'm being clear here, oh well. *sigh* There's way too much blood in my caffeine system atm.

Two souls bound by the red string of fate, learn to depend on one another during a blight. As the battles wear on, the two warriors grow fond of one another and fall in love. During the Landsmeet the two lovers have to make a decision that will affect an entire nation. Will they sacrifice their relationship to uphold the traditions of a nation and unite Ferelden under a just ruler, or continue to the fight and leave the throne to the widowed Queen Anora. Who betrayed you during her rescue.

I guess your not into tragic romance stories. I myself like romantic comedy harems.

[SusanStoHelit]

Siradix wrote...
I guess your not into tragic romance stories. I myself like romantic comedy harems.

Tragic romance? I generally (though not always) hate them. Usually they end tragically because the two people involved are stupid, don't plan ahead or even think, or simply don't damn well communicate with each other. Romeo and Juliet is the usual example - yeesh, complete and utter idiocy on so many levels. Someone should just've smacked them upside the head and made them behave like rational human beings.

Now if the romance is doomed for another reason, that's different.

[Demx]

lol Oh you mean like a terminal illness? Or getting hit by a car and being stuck in a comma for 3 years, while your best friend makes the moves on your lover?

[Terra_Ex]

nYshak wrote...
One thing to remember about good vs. bad ending is this: if you want to keep it realistic (and I believe this is Bios goal) there has to be a balance. Life is hard sometimes, yes, but if reality would be cruel day in and day out most of us would not find the time to play a game like this in the first place. If there is no light, who's to say what darkness is? If you want to create a dark ending that has meaning, you need a good ending with meaning too. If all the possible outcomes are about how you die in gruesome ways, your relationships break up, your betrayed and disposed of - well, then none of it has meaning. It would be all the same. Hence my argument that those of us who would like to see the relationship with Morrigan continue be granted the chance to do so in a future sequel.

Nicely put, like others, I'm not convinced this is the end of the road for Morrigan and PC - there are elements such as the ring which will hopefully tie into the sequel rather than simply giving +2 willpower and an extra paragraph in the epilogue.

For a moment however, lets apply your analogy to the Morrigan romance - looking at things in the most negative possible light in regards to Morrigan's mini-narrative what you describe above is exactly what happens. Every road leads to tragedy for a male PC romancing her, which leads to the question as to whether it's even worth pursuing or even implementing if this is to be the only outcome. It's exactly the same as the JRPG staple whereby a choice will loop around on itself, forcing the player into a certain course of action.

SusanStoHelit wrote...

But some people feel they've been left out in the cold. And they're
entitled to feel that way and express those feelings, in my book. And to
constantly be told that you can have a happy ending - but only if you
do it this way and only with this person and only if you pay this price -
must seem incredibly unsympathetic to them. In fact, what they're
really being told is that they can't have a happy ending. Because if you
don't like Zevran (or whatever) then getting permanently stuck with him
as the only choice in romance is not a 'happy' ending.

I agree, how about we apply a similar spin to how some of the romances end to the Archdemon scenario - what if there was no possible way for the player to fell it, what if you made the ultimate sacrifice and it simple rose again? What if it constantly transferred its essence ad infinitum until the player's armies & entourage fell and the game over/bad ending ran. In this scenario, nothing the player does affects the outcome. Is that fun? Is it fitting within the core design of DA:O? It certainly fits in with the dark fantasy undertones but is this a viable reward for the time you as the player have invested within this gamespace?

It's exactly the same premise to those that say there shouldn't be "happy" endings for each choice, and essentially renders the entire journey moot. If your reaction to this is "well that'd just stupid" then that's kind of the point. I use the archdemon example (and take it to its absolute extreme) as it's something every player would be forced to deal with and essentially negates everything the player has put into that particular plotline.

[ejoslin]

There are happy endings, there are sad endings, there are endings with hope but not much else with all the characters. Except maybe Morrigan, and how could you expect different? What there aren't are perfect endings.

[ReubenLiew]

... Hold on, an elf can have a happy ending with Alistair, do the ritual and don't make him king.

Why must being queen constitute as the only happy ending?

[ejoslin]

ReubenLiew wrote...

... Hold on, an elf can have a happy ending with Alistair, do the ritual and don't make him king.
Why must being queen constitute as the only happy ending?

Of course they can, but they have to compromise.  That's why I say that there are a lot of happy endings, but no perfect ones.  But the world isn't a perfect world.  I have not yet found an ending that was not satisfying on some level.